After my oil consumption rose I took the farings off and found these two leaks: http://imgur.com/a/olmmj.
First is coming from the valve head cover gasket, front on both sides. Second was found in the engine/sprocket cover, but I assume the oil in the sprocket area is coming from a leaking crankcase cover gasket. I figure new gaskets for both is the solution. Oh and apparently I'm using too much chain lube.. Im open to anny other glaring defects you guys might see here.
looks like the gaskets replace them anc c if you have any farther leaks
OK, i see that there's also a gasket to seal with clutch. Might be part of it
That clutch push rod is a retarded a$$ design. They should have put it on the right side. Y'know like they did for all the other bikes that have it on the right. Not just Suzuki, kawi, Yamaha, Honda - all of the above.
Cool.
Buddha.
the big rubber gasket, that's a common issue... if the gasket is still good and not all cracked an dry rotted. you can reuse it. you have to take it off, and where those little half moon shape boots are, add some RTV [black is fine] do what the tube reads, put it on there, hand tighten the bolts down, then after an hour torque the bolts down.
the push rod is suppose to have a metal plate that goes over it, behind the plate on the rod, should be a oring of sorts. I just used a random rubber o-ring and it has stopped leaking so badly.
OK, in this pic #22 is the plate, #21 oil seal, and pushrod #20, correct?
http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2007-suzuki-gs500f/o/m16095#sch649429
The leak at the countershaft sprocket could just be the flung off chain lube oozing when the motor is hot. Maybe just needs all the crap cleaned away.
Also, you mentioned in an earlier thread your oil usage was something like 1.4 ml per mile.That would be about 700ml per 500 miles. I think if that much oil leaked out of a hot motor, the mess would be a lot more than shown in your photos. There would be oil spots on the ground when you parked.
That just my 2c worth though, I hope the new gaskets do the job for you.
Quote from: Darkstar on April 29, 2017, 07:51:31 AM
OK, in this pic #22 is the plate, #21 oil seal, and pushrod #20, correct?
http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2007-suzuki-gs500f/o/m16095#sch649429
correct. but like I said, an o-ring does the job as well, no need to go OEM. its already a fail design.
Quote from: J_Walker on April 28, 2017, 07:19:10 PM
the big rubber gasket, that's a common issue...
I'm seeing conflicting info on the head gasket, and mine is not stiff or cracking btw. One thread said keep the old one and just use RTV seal. Another said replace both the gasket and o-rings on the bolts that hold it down. A third said remove the actual head, retorque it down, then replace head gasket and torque that down. Option 2 sounds prudent, and option 3 confuses me
Quote from: Darkstar on May 01, 2017, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: J_Walker on April 28, 2017, 07:19:10 PM
the big rubber gasket, that's a common issue...
I'm seeing conflicting info on the head gasket, and mine is not stiff or cracking btw. One thread said keep the old one and just use RTV seal. Another said replace both the gasket and o-rings on the bolts that hold it down. A third said remove the actual head, retorque it down, then replace head gasket and torque that down. Option 2 sounds prudent, and option 3 confuses me
if its not stiff/cracked/dry rotted.
Reuse it, just add RTV.
You can replace the orings if you want, as I've said before in another thread about o-rings, those can just be any generic o-ring of the same size no need to go OEM, you can if you want.
I've mentioned this before, but let me tell you. the replacement "big rubbery head gaskets" out there that you buy online, are all somewhat under sized compared to what was on there.. so a brand new one still is going to require you to put RTV in the half moon spots. to keep it from blowing oil.
Quote from: J_Walker on May 01, 2017, 05:08:11 PM
just add RTV
After reading your first post I ordered this Permatex RTV. Ad said it was good for valve covers, but packaging says it's not good with gas. Wouldn't all engine oil have traces of gas in it? I may have to return this and get another brand?
https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-82180-Maximum-Resistance-Silicone/dp/B0002UEN1U/ref=pd_sbs_263_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0002UEN1U&pd_rd_r=32ENDHS0GVVGA76PTDEK&pd_rd_w=u4Ok9&pd_rd_wg=Tjd3E&psc=1&refRID=32ENDHS0GVVGA76PTDEK
Quote from: J_Walker on May 01, 2017, 05:08:11 PM
replacement "big rubbery head gaskets"are all somewhat under sized
Even the OEM?
Quote from: Darkstar on May 02, 2017, 04:25:06 AM
After reading your first post I ordered this Permatex RTV. Ad said it was good for valve covers, but packaging says it's not good with gas. Wouldn't all engine oil have traces of gas in it?
Not unless your carbs are leaking into the cylinders and fuel is then running past the pistons at rest...
But that's means more that you can't use the RTV for the fuel bowl gasket on the carbs, not that if there's a 0.5% fuel contamination in the oil it'll eat the RTV if you used it as an engine cover gasket...
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 08:34:13 AM
But that's means more that you can't use the RTV for the fuel bowl gasket on the carbs, not that if there's a 0.5% fuel contamination in the oil it'll eat the RTV if you used it as an engine cover gasket...
Gotcha, just wanted to check before I started the job. Last thing I want is silicone bits floating around in my engine. Do you usually apply it to both grooves, the groove in the valve cover and the groove in the housing it fits into? Thanks!
Quote from: Darkstar on May 02, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 08:34:13 AM
But that's means more that you can't use the RTV for the fuel bowl gasket on the carbs, not that if there's a 0.5% fuel contamination in the oil it'll eat the RTV if you used it as an engine cover gasket...
Gotcha, just wanted to check before I started the job. Last thing I want is silicone bits floating around in my engine. Do you usually apply it to both grooves, the groove in the valve cover and the groove in the housing it fits into? Thanks!
I'm going to go outside a do mine, I got an OEM gasket from bikebandit when I did my rebuild, and now starting to see leaks from the top. I've been ignoring it but since I've been instructing how to do it here..
and my tires are on their way back for a refund [UGH MAIL HURRY] and I still have to get a NEW set of tires in their place. basically the bike is sitting waiting for tires.. the old ones have a big sheet metal screw hole in the middle..
Just do the "under side" of the gasket.
i'm walking outside right now to pull mine off. I'll take lots of pictures for ya! only difference is I'm using RTV red, instead of black, just because that's what I buy, but black is perfect for this. stay tuned.
Instructions are to bead one side of the part and assemble immediately, then trim excess.
Seeing as you don't want any inside the engine I'd be inclined to run a thinner than expected bead and I'd actually let it set for a minute before joining so you don't get such a dramatic squish.
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
Instructions are to bead one side of the part
I understand, but there's two parts, one above the gasket and one below. Either could leak, so they should be sealed? Do they leak because one of them warped?
Quote from: Darkstar on May 02, 2017, 05:32:08 PM
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
Instructions are to bead one side of the part
I understand, but there's two parts, one above the gasket and one below. Either could leak, so they should be sealed? Do they leak because one of them warped?
Honestly? I've never used RTV to fix a gasket, I've always used it to replace a gasket. It's gasket
maker, not gasket
mender, so I'm not entirely sure what you should do here. But putting it top and bottom on an existing rubber gasket, especially a thick one like the valve cover, seems a sure way to make a mess, to me.
Best course of action I can think of is to cut away the gasket where it's damaged then use the RTV as directed with a slight overlap onto "good" gasket.
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 05:46:54 PM
maker
Well, that's the literal product name. Sometime I feel like a moron.
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 05:46:54 PM
Quote from: Darkstar on May 02, 2017, 05:32:08 PM
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
Instructions are to bead one side of the part
I understand, but there's two parts, one above the gasket and one below. Either could leak, so they should be sealed? Do they leak because one of them warped?
Honestly? I've never used RTV to fix a gasket, I've always used it to replace a gasket. It's gasket maker, not gasket mender, so I'm not entirely sure what you should do here. But putting it top and bottom on an existing rubber gasket, especially a thick one like the valve cover, seems a sure way to make a mess, to me.
Best course of action I can think of is to cut away the gasket where it's damaged then use the RTV as directed with a slight overlap onto "good" gasket.
The big rubber gasket is leaking because its getting underneath the gasket. like 50000% of the time.* the RTV is to "tighten up" the gasket, making it a couple hundredths of an inch thicker. Stopping the leak. PREPARE FOR PICTURE DUMP
I suppose a real thin bead top and bottom to "fill in the cracks" wouldn't hurt.
I'm just going by how I've always used it, as a gasket replacement. I once rebuilt a Jeep Cherokee transfer case without a single proper gasket. Took two whole tubes of RTV! Held oil for years. Bought that truck with like 112k and finally junked it around 190k. Still ran strong, the body deteriorated, though.
Alright, here is what it looked like before everything came apart. since all the oil was spread around from the breeze, you can't really tell by the picture where it was leaking from, but pretty much most of it was coming from the half moon shaped areas.
(http://i.imgur.com/SAbAIwT.jpg)
Now a little protip, zip tie your fuel tubes to the frame before you remove them, wont lose your clips and you won't spill anything past a drop of fuel, just remember to turn off the petcock on the gas tank, petcock is off with a 1/4 of a turn! Do not turn it half way, its back on that way!
(http://i.imgur.com/NhRZpVk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/H82ZNOZ.jpg)
Now it's pretty much taking the head off, get the gas tank all the way off. a little pro-tip is to take the little piece of aluminum that connects that vent hose from the airbox to the engine, off. 4 bolts, paper gasket, if the paper gasket rips a little, don't really worry just slap a thin layer of RTV on it when you reinstall. what you're gonna need is some clean rags/paper towels and LOTS of Q-tips, I mean just grab a hand full and stuff them in your pocket.. you gonna use all of them.
(http://i.imgur.com/429TQY2.jpg)
Clean the surfaces that are going to come in contact with the RTV/gasket. Spray the purple power, ONTO your Rags/Qtips, not onto the part! clean with the surfaces with the degreaser/acetone and make sure to wipe down after them with a dry clean rag. For the rubber gasket,
be VERY careful even if it looks good it's going to be stiff to a point and be sorta easy to break, but I washed mine down with some dawn dishsoap and water in a bucket, with a small piece of rag to scrub at it a little then I took it off an rinsed it off with water, and threw it on a clean rag and used Q-tips to dry the whole thing
Now put the gasket back onto the head, as a trial run to figure out how you're gonna get it back in there with the RTV on the head, when putting the gasket back in, don't let it touch the head until you have the whole thing in there. the GASKET only goes in ONE WAY, notice this.
(http://i.imgur.com/FCnd7nv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xzbhP4s.jpg)
Now my tube of RTV came with a little applicator tip, that you cut off to get a certain bead size. try to get one with this. but if you don't have one, or want something EVEN BETTER. get a wisdom tooth socket cleaning syringe, I don't know if they have a more "official" name but googling that gave me exactly what they where. having my wisdom teeth removed, at least one good thing came of it.. that little syringe is a godsend for applying PERFECT sized beads of RTV. Another free pro-tip there. 8) just remove the plunger squirt the RTV into it, and reinsert the plunger... pretty EZPZ
Now roughly this is the size of bead you're going for, and where it needs to be applied. DO NOT apply the silicone into the "grooved" top half! you will want to punch yourself in the :icon_eek: :icon_exclaim: :technical: if you ever decide to replace the headgasket over all. because its a real PITA to get out...
(http://i.imgur.com/cKYBxru.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/puDhMdz.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HQcrYuv.jpg)
Okay now time for the "magic hands" put the gasket ON TOP of the RTV, what I do is kind fold the gasket to get it under the wires/cables and actually go in from the SIDE [notice the sparkplug wire is removed below] I then let it unfold and put the half moon parts in first.
NOTICE THE GASKET ONLY GOES IN ONE WAY.
(http://i.imgur.com/yMPb6K6.jpg)
Now you got the gasket back on there. put the head back on over it, try not to knock the gasket, but it should have sorta a suction on engine part so it won't slide around easy. you will probably get some spots that didn't "click" in just right, I used a dental pick to push and pull the gasket so it would fit perfectly, go around and check all 4 sides to make sure its seated
(http://i.imgur.com/9UOiu8k.jpg)
Now put the bolts and when I mean, hand tighten, just take the allen bolt bit and hold it in your fingers, and finger tighten only!
(http://i.imgur.com/AwNwQRc.jpg)
Wait 1 hour
Then whip out your torque wrench and torque down to 11 foot pounds, mine doesn't really work below 15 foot pounds, so I just stuck it on 15 and torqued it down to 15, nothing felt sketchy or stripped so 15 is OKAY.
(http://i.imgur.com/fMWuhlj.jpg)
That is it! Wait 24 hours for the RTV to fully cure before turning on the engine. oh and remember to plug in any wires you unplugged and to turn the fuel tank petcock back on.. :thumb: EZPZ
Quote from: Watcher on May 02, 2017, 07:18:57 PM
I suppose a real thin bead top and bottom to "fill in the cracks" wouldn't hurt.
I'm just going by how I've always used it, as a gasket replacement. I once rebuilt a Jeep Cherokee transfer case without a single proper gasket. Took two whole tubes of RTV! Held oil for years. Bought that truck with like 112k and finally junked it around 190k. Still ran strong, the body deteriorated, though.
there is some places that are OKAY to use RTV.. if you're just trying to keep oil from leaking, and you really don't see huge amounts of oil pressure. then its okay to use RTV. and RTV is okay with paper gaskets to fill any inconsistent case machining. or just a dab to get the paper gasket to stick to a casing encase of FGS floppy gasket syndrome.
this is why I mentioned earlier if his gasket was cracked/dry rotted that it can't really be reused or repaired, and why I said to be very careful when handling the old gasket as if fully ripping and its time for a new one.. but them leaking is a pretty cheap easy fix. and if they are leaking up and AROUND the gasket [oil coming from the grooved side] RTV in a horse needle can be injected up in there to "shut" the leak up. lol
Quote from: J_Walker on May 02, 2017, 07:31:26 PMgasket
Hey man, thanks for documenting this so thoroughly, I know it's a lot more work, but you gave me a few things to consider. I think I'm going will be to use RTV as a gasket replacement, and also replace the bolt o-rings. Will keep you posted. thanks again
I recommend Hylomar® Universal Blue sealant
Quote from: Darkstar on May 03, 2017, 07:52:23 AM
Quote from: J_Walker on May 02, 2017, 07:31:26 PMgasket
Hey man, thanks for documenting this so thoroughly, I know it's a lot more work, but you gave me a few things to consider. I think I'm going will be to use RTV as a gasket replacement, and also replace the bolt o-rings. Will keep you posted. thanks again
hah the post was the most "work". I had to do mine anyway it was just snapping pictures along the way. I would advise against using JUST the RTV as a gasket.. the complicated parts are gonna be those half moon shapes.. I dunno its only $26.95 on bikebandit for a whole new gasket. if money is tight just keep riding it with blowing oil as is, and don't take it apart. until you can afford a new gasket. it doesn't leak that much unless there is a whole blown out piece of rubber. but you do you.
Quote from: J_Walker on May 03, 2017, 02:11:02 PMI would advise against using JUST the RTV as a gasket.
And I just realized why. I'm surprised in those nihon-jin engineers for putting out such a crappy design on this. I was cleaned my gasket and surfaces just as you did, applied a thin bead to the head valve head surface, laid the gasket in place, and then put the cover on. Had to adjust it as it squirmed around. I'll take it for a spin tomorrow afternoon and see if it spews. Thanks!
Quote from: Darkstar on May 03, 2017, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: J_Walker on May 03, 2017, 02:11:02 PMI would advise against using JUST the RTV as a gasket.
And I just realized why.
Those half moons would be hard to do, lol!
Great pictures!
May I ask though: What about the OTHER leak, down by the sprocket and chain? Did you do the o-ring there or? And, do you have pictures of that? Thanks!
Quote from: Rallyfan on May 03, 2017, 11:20:34 PM
May I ask though: What about the OTHER leak, down by the sprocket and chain? Did you do the o-ring there or?
J_Walker and I are doing the same gasket fix. I started the thread about this and the clutch and he posted the pics. To answer your question, when I opened up the sprocket cover I discovered a pound of chain lube thrown on the wall. Someone here suggested that the leak down there may have actually been the lube melting and dripping down. Yesterday after fixing the valve cover gasket I degreased the entire engine and later today I go for a test ride. If I see any oil coming from the sprocket area, I'll know that it is indeed the clutch o-ring. If that's the case, I'll take pics and document it for you, under a new thread.
THANK YOU!!!!
I find myself torn... On the one hand, I hope you DON'T have a sprocket area leak. On the other hand, since I too might have a sprocket area leak... I'd like to see a how-to thread...
If you do find a leak there (knock on wood) please do a thread, I'd really appreciate it!
Good luck and thanks again!
Quote from: Rallyfan on May 04, 2017, 07:07:19 AM
If you do find a leak there (knock on wood) please do a thread
You're out of luck, so far anyway. I took it for a hard 30 minute ride and not a drop of oil anywhere. Looks like the RTV held up and the clutch o-ring is good. I'm doing 200 miles Sunday though and that will be the real test. Previously, I was losing >1ml of oil per mile. If I'm still losing some, it means my control oil rings are burnt. That's where this all started for me. Crossing my fingers.
Ok thanks. I'll degrease mine ASAP and see what happens also.
Ok so I left the cover on but sprayed degreaser and then water under it from the rear side and below and I dried and lubed the chain. The oil now is... worse which may be good news(?!). My theory is there's globs of old lube under there and I scratched the surface. I'll see what happens...
Quote from: Rallyfan on May 06, 2017, 01:14:00 PM
Ok so I left the cover on but sprayed degreaser and then water under it from the rear side and below and I dried and lubed the chain. The oil now is... worse which may be good news(?!). My theory is there's globs of old lube under there and I scratched the surface. I'll see what happens...
There's this engine cleaner stuff I get from ace it comes in a big spray can.. when I NEED something completely cleaned, I use it.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3077200&KPID=4662678&cid=CAPLA:G:Shopping_-_Catch_All_-_DT&pla=pla_4662678&k_clickid=11e5ebee-2c29-4b64-922e-6834caf29fc1
actually its cheaper at walmart.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Gunk-Heavy-Duty-Gel-Engine-Degreaser/16816126?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227016951077&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42977346272&wl4=pla-81469353872&wl5=9012405&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=16816126&wl13=&veh=sem
but walmart is a 25minute drive, for me, and my ace is like 8 tops.
Yes that stuff doesn't mess around thanks!
I too found caked grease under the clutch cover and cleaned it up as best I could. Bet that's the issue.
How did it go, is it still leaking? Last week I found another leak from my oil cooler, easy one to miss. Just fixed.
The sprocket cover is now clean. I now see oil from the crankcase cover on the same side but it may stil be residual; I'll have to see.
Don't use RTV......please :dunno_black:
You can clean it off the outside but not the inside. Imagine a cured fragment of RTV breaking off inside and becoming lodged in an oil gallery or between the clutch plates or in the selector drum.
You shouldn't need it anyway, use a new gasket, clean the surfaces properly and torque the fastenings correctly, that's all it takes.
If you feel you have to use something non setting gasket compound like Hylomar is the way to go.
Quote from: sledge on June 07, 2017, 01:54:01 PM
Don't use RTV......please :dunno_black:
You can clean it off the outside but not the inside. Imagine a cured fragment of RTV breaking off inside and becoming lodged in an oil gallery or between the clutch plates or in the selector drum.
You shouldn't need it anyway, use a new gasket, clean the surfaces properly and torque the fastenings correctly, that's all it takes.
If you feel you have to use something non setting gasket compound like Hylomar is the way to go.
considering the head gasket I used, was new, with less then 5k miles on it, leaking. I'd say its the new headgaskets that don't fit right.
also the "pressure" of the engines case, presses the RTV outward, the proof is in the pudding, there's always some "outside" squeeze out of the RTV after running it for about 100-200 miles. NOT before.
I did not develop any oil leaks. but since my engine is now dead again, and it's gonna get torn down again to find out what exactly is wrong, ill report any loose RTV anywhere in the engine, since mine is red, it will be easy to see/find. I've got 1k miles on the bike since this post, from when it died. so I'd say more then enough time for something to dislodge any loose RTV.
Save yourself the the bother......because your findings won't change my opinion in the slightest nor will it reduce the chances of what I said may happen from actually happening, either to you or anyone else :thumb:
I just don't want to see some inexperienced and easily influenced noob blindly following your example without appreciating the risks your method presents.
Let's sum it up........use RTV and it MAY lead to a problem, use semi setting gasket compound like Hylomar and you WONT have a problem......and its as simple as that.
As always.....your bike, your call :dunno_black:
Quote from: sledge on June 08, 2017, 11:10:47 AMinexperienced and easily influenced noob blindly following your example
in the two years ive been here, this is the first time ive seen someone sling attitude :(
Quote from: Darkstar on June 08, 2017, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: sledge on June 08, 2017, 11:10:47 AMinexperienced and easily influenced noob blindly following your example
in the two years ive been here, this is the first time ive seen someone sling attitude :(
Meh, Sledge is like that uncle/cousin who is always posting political stuff on facebook. and is NEVER wrong. He just can't be wrong. It would break the known laws physics. but its not his fault, people are born the way they are. Be accepting now :)
No need for sarcasm ;)
https://mercedessource.com/problems/engine/using-silicone-rtv-gasket-adhesives
OK its not quite a GS5 but I believe it reinforces what I have said on the subject. My own experience with this matter relates to a large industrial gearbox,about 7.5ton. Basically (and through laziness) silicon was used instead of a gasket. It led to catastrophic failure of the box due to a critical oil passage becoming blocked. A £75k repair bill and another £200,000 in lost production.
So...... if I have made just one person stop and consider the risks and question the use of RTV on their bike.......well that will do for me. But hey...... if you still think filling your engine up with silicon is a good idea and a risk free one.....you crack on :thumb:
Quote from: Darkstar on June 08, 2017, 02:34:54 PM
in the two years ive been here, this is the first time ive seen someone sling attitude :(
sledge can be... abrasive at times. But, most of the times he does know what he's talking about.
Quote from: sledge on June 08, 2017, 08:08:22 PM
So...... if I have made just one person stop and consider the risks and question the use of RTV on their bike.......well that will do for me
For what it's worth, I just opened it up and the RTV I applied is just the way I left it. That's about 6000 miles ago pal. If you apply it lightly, it pushes outwards, not in. It doesn't even close to leaking inside. How's that for an inexperienced newbie?