Hi! New to the forum, but happy to be here.
Background before I get to my question
I just bough a new-to-me 1989 GS500e that is a bit of a Frankenstein... The engine is from a gs500f, I believe a 2006. I know this because the tachometer doesn't work, since the 500F uses a digital signal and my tach is analog. The carbs, however, are from the older models. The bike was running when I bought it (a little rough), but then it started stalling out, and now it wont start at all. I blamed this on the old gas, but since draining and putting in new gas it is still wont start. It does turn over, though. The gas tank is getting a little rusty on the inside, so i know that that must have made its way to the carbs. I actually hydro-locked my engine trying to start it, but I was able to rectify that by removing the spark plugs, cranking the engine, and watching the water (gasoline actually) show. I'm currently letting it air dry before I try again.
It's probably my best bet to clean the carbs, but I know that this may happen again with the tank being rusty.
This bring me to my actual question
Has anyone had any luck installing an in-line fuel filter? I know that I should use one of the lawn-mower style filters, since the bike's system is gravity fed and no fuel pump like a lawn mower's. I would install it after the petcock and before the carbs. Do you guys think this would work, or should I not care about the rust in my tank? Oh, and i might have played with the idle screw a bit, and now I have no clue if it is in a good working position or now... Any way to check that without starting the bike?
Also, this is my first motorcycle lol. And first time working on anything with carbs. I do have some mechanical know-how from DIYing on my car, so I am a little comfortable doing the work myself, though I am doing all kinds of things I've never done before.
Don't bother.
In my experience they cause more issues than they solve. There's a screen inside the tank anyway...
Be warned that the new model carbs use a slightly different boot than the old model, so old carbs won't simply bolt on to a new engine unless the boots were also swapped.
But I want to say you would notice if the boots were a little "off".
I think your compatibility issues go further then the tach my brother the Throttle Positioning Sensor off the newer bikes controls timing as well unless i am mistaken.
I had massive and strange issues when i tried the reverse, a '97 motor into an 06 bike "just put it in it'll work just fine" is what the guy at the shop who sold it to me said, the sack of shaZam!
as it turned out I would have had to put in carbs and linkage from an older gs I ended up picking up a motor from an 04.
Hopefully for your sake the reverse is not true
Thanks for the heads up on compatibility! I know the bike was ridden for a little while before I had it, so I think all of those little details must have been taken care of at the time of the install. I'm pretty sure the bikes carbs need cleaning, first and foremost, though. I got it off a friend who let it sit for a year without properly winterizig it, and then i let it run on old gas...
Quote from: Jagged on May 13, 2017, 07:34:16 PM
I think your compatibility issues go further then the tach my brother the Throttle Positioning Sensor off the newer bikes controls timing as well unless i am mistaken.
I think you are. I have no first hand experience with the 2k1+ bikes, however ignition timing is fixed and there's no ECM so there's no reason I can think of to have a TPS.
There is a TPS on the RH carb on the later models. I would say it had nothing to do with the ignition timing though. There is also a electrically controlled device which is linked into the vacuum lines and opens and shuts a valve on the top of the carbs. This link explains it - http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=56601.msg849249#msg849249
Shift-E, try checking the float height using the tube method - http://www.bbburma.net/FloatHeight.htm
You might have a float needle stuck open.
Drain your float bowls and see what sort of crap has built up in there. Maybe put the fuel tap on prime for a few seconds to help flush it out.
Also, tapping the bowl with something hard may help it seat otherwise it is a carb off job.
Good luck
Quote from: Sandgroper57 on May 13, 2017, 09:38:28 PM
There is a TPS on the RH carb on the later models. I would say it had nothing to do with the ignition timing though. There is also a electrically controlled device which is linked into the vacuum lines and opens and shuts a valve on the top of the carbs. This link explains it - http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=56601.msg849249#msg849249
That's super weird. Glad I stuck with pre-2k GSs :thumb:
Any idea what the TPS even does? Ignition is still controlled by the signal generator rotor and it's not an EFI bike so the timing is set mechanically and is more or less permanent.
Unless the TPS's job is tied solely into those vacuum doohickeys.
That float trick is nifty. Though I do think its best to just take the carbs off at this point because i think something actually may be stuck.
When set to pri (before i knew what it was) i ended up having gas pouring out the airbox drain hose. It really freaked me out at the time until I found out what it was lol
Quote from: Watcher on May 13, 2017, 09:46:41 PM
Any idea what the TPS even does? Ignition is still controlled by the signal generator rotor and it's not an EFI bike so the timing is set mechanically and is more or less permanent.
Unless the TPS's job is tied solely into those vacuum doohickeys.
I'm guessing it is to sense when the throttle is shut off then the valves are opened. But, I could be wrong (could also be wrong about the ignition timing as well). There doesn't seem to much info to be had for this setup. On the plus side though, it all works. I haven't ridden an earlier GS so have no reference as to better or worse performance but I am happy with the way the bike runs.
Quote from: Shift-E on May 13, 2017, 10:13:49 PM
When set to pri (before i knew what it was) i ended up having gas pouring out the airbox drain hose. It really freaked me out at the time until I found out what it was lol
It means your float needles are leaking.
Do yourself a favor and get a new pair of float needles, a pair of 40 pilot Jets and 125 mains, and a complete set of all o rings including the ones for the idle mix needles and then pull the carbs, clean everything, replace the float needles and the o rings, replace the intake boot o rings and then set the float height and put it together. Set idle mixture and speed according to the wiki. 2 hours work and get it all done at once. Otherwise you'll be on here a hundred times with this and that little problem until you wind up doing this all anyway but spend 4x as much on parts and have the carbs apart four or five times.
Quote from: mr72 on May 15, 2017, 04:44:34 AM
It means your float needles are leaking.
Do yourself a favor and get a new pair of float needles, a pair of 40 pilot Jets and 125 mains, and a complete set of all o rings including the ones for the idle mix needles and then pull the carbs, clean everything, replace the float needles and the o rings, replace the intake boot o rings and then set the float height and put it together. Set idle mixture and speed according to the wiki. 2 hours work and get it all done at once. Otherwise you'll be on here a hundred times with this and that little problem until you wind up doing this all anyway but spend 4x as much on parts and have the carbs apart four or five times.
Thanks for the tips! I figured i'd need to do a carb rebuild with gaskets/orings/float needle. Didn't think about the jets.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but youre saying all I will need is 2 of these kits: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/K-L-18-9310-Suzuki-GS500E-DR250S-DR250SE-Lower-Bowl-Carburetor-Repair-Kit-/401275296577?hash=item5d6ddf1b41:g:zD0AAOSw42JZAnQX&vxp=mtr
PLUS Jets numbered 19 and 31 on this parts diagram: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Suzuki/Motorcycle/1989/GS500ET/CARBURETOR/parts.html
While also looking at the diagram, i'm assuming the carb kit includes numbers 26, 27, 29, 33, and 34. Does that sound right? I'f I can source them individually and it be cheaper, maybe I'll go that route vs an ebay kit.
Anything else I should pick up while I'm at it?
Quote from: Shift-E on May 15, 2017, 05:52:03 AM
Thanks for the tips! I figured i'd need to do a carb rebuild with gaskets/orings/float needle. Didn't think about the jets.
You want to upsize the jets since the bike is jetted lean from the factory. And the pilot jet is tiny and easily clogged, easier to replace than try to clean it.
You want to run a wire through the pilot orifice once the jet is out.
Quote
So correct me if I'm wrong, but youre saying all I will need is 2 of these kits: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/K-L-18-9310-Suzuki-GS500E-DR250S-DR250SE-Lower-Bowl-Carburetor-Repair-Kit-/401275296577?hash=item5d6ddf1b41:g:zD0AAOSw42JZAnQX&vxp=mtr
PLUS Jets numbered 19 and 31 on this parts diagram: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Suzuki/Motorcycle/1989/GS500ET/CARBURETOR/parts.html
You also need #20 o rings likely not in the kit.
Quote
While also looking at the diagram, i'm assuming the carb kit includes numbers 26, 27, 29, 33, and 34. Does that sound right? I'f I can source them individually and it be cheaper, maybe I'll go that route vs an ebay kit.
You can definitely source them cheaper but not by a whole lot. You can get everything you need for a little more than the price of one kit to do both carbs. You need to get the float needles from somewhere and they are about $12 each or so. You may not need the float needle seats at all but they often come with the needle valves. Make your life easy to and buy the kits and supplement with o-rings from thisoldtractor or the dealer.
You will also need to find a #20 o-ring (from the diagram) and to head off future vacuum leaks and while you have it apart, I would also get a pair of PN# 09280-40010 from this site:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_dr350_orings.html
BTW you can get some of the other o-rings from here.
SPN# 13295-29900
SPN# 13374-35C00
SPN# 13374-46710
Only one they don't have is the o-ring that goes under the vacuum port on the top of the carb.
By the way DO NOT SPRAY CARB CLEANER ON THE CARBS while they are fully assembled. It will ruin the rubber diaphragms under the carb caps. So you need to remove the rubber diaphragms and tear down the carbs all the way removing other rubber parts before hitting it with carb cleaner.
Anything else I should pick up while I'm at it?
[/quote]
Great! I will definitely look into getting all the appropriate o-rings. It looks like this carb kit comes with 4 o-rings, so I feel like #20 is included in that list perhaps?
So for the Jets, would I simply buy these and swap them with the originals?
Main Jet:
https://fortnine.ca/en/ebc-mikuni-slot-head-style-main-jets
Pilot Jet, which of these two would I use for our carbs?
https://fortnine.ca/en/ebc-pilot-jets-mikuni-style-n224-103
https://fortnine.ca/en/ebc-pilot-jets-mikuni-style-vm28-486
Quote from: Shift-E on May 15, 2017, 08:23:41 AM
Great! I will definitely look into getting all the appropriate o-rings. It looks like this carb kit comes with 4 o-rings, so I feel like #20 is included in that list perhaps?
I doubt it. I bet that 4th o-ring is for the vacuum port on the top of the carb. Most people overlook the mixture needle o-ring (#20).
Quote from: Watcher on May 13, 2017, 09:46:41 PM.................................That's super weird. Glad I stuck with pre-2k GSs :thumb:
Any idea what the TPS even does?...................
You missed the best GSs ever made, the 01-02 models. They got the new 3 circuit carbs and no pollution changes except a retarding of spark at idle only. I put 80k miles on a 97 and 100k miles on a 02. Rode them both the same day to compare a few times after the toralled 97 was fixed. The 02 was smoother and pulled stronger thru out the mid rpm ranges although I felt the 97 was a bit stronger at the top end.
2ND AIR (GS500F E33 / GS500FK6 E3 / GS500FK6 E28)
Above from 04-06 parts list, 2nd air with TPS was on E33 only for 04 and 05 and was added to E3 in 06. E33 California and E3 US 49 states.
Ah, I found the proper pilot jets: https://fortnine.ca/en/ebc-pilot-jets-mikuni-style-n151-067
Yeah but those are quite expensive. Could be a Canadian thing.
I paid about $5-6 for each pair of jets I bought.
BTW in the USA the stock pilot is 37.5 and the next step up is 40. The stock main is 122.5 next step up is 125. Presumably the same in Canada. I recommend making the one-step-up jetting for both if you are keeping the stock air box (which is also recommended). I'm running 40/127.5 which is brilliant but I have a slip on Yoshi muffler. Bike ran fine with 125 jets too.
I think it is a Canadian thing, plus the fact that the packs come in a minimum of 4. I could order from the states, but shipping currency conversion completely offsets the savings.
I'm assuming I just need to put in the jets as a straight replacement, and that they shouldn't require anything extra?
Quote from: Shift-E on May 15, 2017, 11:36:53 AM
I'm assuming I just need to put in the jets as a straight replacement, and that they shouldn't require anything extra?
That's right.
But while you have the pilot jet out it won't hurt to run a wire through the inlet orifice at the bottom of the pilot jet hole to clear any junk that might be in there before putting the new one in.
Quote from: mr72 on May 15, 2017, 12:36:42 PM
Quote from: Shift-E on May 15, 2017, 11:36:53 AM
I'm assuming I just need to put in the jets as a straight replacement, and that they shouldn't require anything extra?
That's right.
But while you have the pilot jet out it won't hurt to run a wire through the inlet orifice at the bottom of the pilot jet hole to clear any junk that might be in there before putting the new one in.
Thanks for all the help!
I know that Watcher up above mentioned not to worry about an in-line fuel filter. What are your thoughts on adding one in, since my gas tank is getting rusty. Would it benefit or act more like a restriction? Or is it simply overkill for no reason?
I don't have an inline fuel filter. Bike had one when I got it and it didn't run correctly, I think the fuel filter had nothing to do with it but Watcher's probably right. Unnecessary and definitely a potential added restriction.
Drain your gas to get the gunk out, consider treating the tank to fix the rust. Worst that happens is some of the rust winds up clogging a carb. You're going to become an expert at cleaning these carbs, might as well use that expertise.
Quote from: Shift-E on May 15, 2017, 12:54:11 PM
I know that Watcher up above mentioned not to worry about an in-line fuel filter. What are your thoughts on adding one in, since my gas tank is getting rusty. Would it benefit or act more like a restriction? Or is it simply overkill for no reason?
Its me again, but I'll tell you my experience with them. Living in the Midwest riding rain ror shine, commuting by bike, I needed to run all new fuel lines so I added a filter because why not.
A few months down the road I'd randomly "run out of gas" with plenty of fuel in the tank. Usually letting it sit for a few minutes would cure it.
Eventually I was in a rush and on the side of the road I disconnected the fuel line above the filter. The filter back-flowed a bunch of brown fuel and when I reattached the line it fired right up. A week later same issue, same solution.
New filter, different brand/type. Ran well. A month or two later same issue. The filter elements get clogged up and restrict fuel flow.
Said F it and ran a new line with no filter. No issue since.
The carbs are sensitive to dirt/rust/etc, but so is the petcock. There is no filter between the tank and the petcock, but people like to add filters between the petcock and carbs.
I say, if the screen in the tank works well enough for the petcock then the screen in the tank works well enough for the carbs.
One might say it's more important on a fuel injected system, I might say a fuel pump is susceptible just as much as the injectors. The primary source of sediments is the tank and the pump is filtered...
Where I definitely
would run a fuel filter is on an off-road bike in a dusty region, and I'd change that filter every oil change...
Quote from: Watcher on May 16, 2017, 09:57:58 AM
Its me again, but I'll tell you my experience with them. Living in the Midwest riding rain ror shine, commuting by bike, I needed to run all new fuel lines so I added a filter because why not.
A few months down the road I'd randomly "run out of gas" with plenty of fuel in the tank. Usually letting it sit for a few minutes would cure it.
Eventually I was in a rush and on the side of the road I disconnected the fuel line above the filter. The filter back-flowed a bunch of brown fuel and when I reattached the line it fired right up. A week later same issue, same solution.
New filter, different brand/type. Ran well. A month or two later same issue. The filter elements get clogged up and restrict fuel flow.
Said F it and ran a new line with no filter. No issue since.
The carbs are sensitive to dirt/rust/etc, but so is the petcock. There is no filter between the tank and the petcock, but people like to add filters between the petcock and carbs.
I say, if the screen in the tank works well enough for the petcock then the screen in the tank works well enough for the carbs.
One might say it's more important on a fuel injected system, I might say a fuel pump is susceptible just as much as the injectors. The primary source of sediments is the tank and the pump is filtered...
Where I definitely would run a fuel filter is on an off-road bike in a dusty region, and I'd change that filter every oil change...
Thanks for the heads up! Sounds like the filters are more maintenance work then they're worth. You'd need a bunch of them on hand to change rather frequently..
I didn't want to seem like I was ignoring your advice, just wanted to see if different people had similar/different experiences. Naturally, I assumed a member with a post count like yours knows what he's talking about haha
Quote from: Shift-E on May 16, 2017, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: Watcher on May 16, 2017, 09:57:58 AM
...
I didn't want to seem like I was ignoring your advice, just wanted to see if different people had similar/different experiences.
Naturally, I assumed a member with a post count like yours knows what he's talking about haha
Oh not at all, but I did want to give you some sort of idea as to WHY I think they're unnecessary.
I've been around the GS a bit, but don't let post count alone lead you into blind belief of what we say. I can and do get many things wrong, especially in regards to the updated 2k1+ GSs and their 3-jet carbs and oddball emissions control systems. (I had a 1996 and a 1997)
Plus many of us have such a post count from the off-topic section...
So my parts have come in for my carb rebuild. Hopefully I can get to it next week.
Questions:
1) I know that I need to set the idle to 1200. Is that with the choke on, or released after it has warmed up?
2) I can't really set my idle. Since my tach is not working (mechanical tach, but newer engine that gives electronic signal as mentioned earlier), how should I be setting the idle? I dont know what 1200rpm sounds/feels like on the bike. Would anyone have a simple reference point for me to go off to get me as close to proper idle as possible?
Quote from: Shift-E on May 25, 2017, 08:55:08 AM
1) I know that I need to set the idle to 1200. Is that with the choke on, or released after it has warmed up?
2) Since my tach is not working, how should I be setting the idle?
Best you can do is find a video of a warmed up GS idling and go by ear.
You can "feel it in", anything under 1200 and the engine itself may be loud or the RPMs will sound unstable, and within reason anything above will sound like it still has the choke on. Its not super critical nor exact, just do your best until you get a proper tach sorted out.
Quote from: Shift-E on May 25, 2017, 08:55:08 AM
1) I know that I need to set the idle to 1200. Is that with the choke on, or released after it has warmed up?
This is actually a much trickier question than you are suggesting.
But the short answer is, you need to set the idle with the bike fully warmed up, which usually takes about 10-15 minutes of actual riding on the road to achieve.
When you start the bike on choke, it should rev itself to about 5K rpm or so while the choke is on. Then after about a minute of this you can turn off the choke and go ride. The idle may be lower than you set it for a little while when it's cold. Eventually the idle will pick up to the preset speed once you get FULLY WARMED UP.
In my case for the first 15-20 minutes of a ride my idle speed may be 1K-1.2K and when it's all the way warmed up it might get as high as 1.4K-1.5K. If I adjust it do where it idles at 1.2K before it's fully warmed up then not only is the idle too fast when it's hot, but it also does the "hanging idle" thing. So the real key is to set the idle mixture and speed with a all the way fully warmed up bike. I prefer to put the tools in my pocket (my mixture adjustment screwdriver, special tool) and go on a 20-30 minute ride that ends up back at my house, then while the bike is still running from the ride, set the idle mixture and speed. This is the only way I've found to do it reliably.
Thanks guys!
One more question, about the tach. I was under the impression that wiring a digital tach in would be very difficult, but now i'm seeing it is actually very simple.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I would just need to splice in 4 wires? 1) 12v power. 2) ground. 3) power for the back light. And 4) splice in the signal wire to the right spark plug ignition coil, which will actually give me the rpm reading?
I'm trying to wrap my head around it all. I've done wiring for headlights in the past, but this is new to me and I've been trying to figure out where the newer tachs get their signal from. I've tried searching it on this site, but I always hit a dead end because I don't exactly know what it is that I should be looking for.
So how many turns does the air/fuel needle need to come out? The wiki says 2-4 (which is a huge difference). Manual says 2 and 1/4 for UK models, but "preset" for US models. What the heck is preset supposed to mean?
Am I right to assume, since i did the 40 and 125 jets like the UK models, that I should go for the 2 and 1/4 turns?
I've got the carbs almost off (didn't have a wrench handy yesterday to take the throttle cable off), so hopefully i'll be able to get it off and cleaned tonight. Just wanna know what I need to do for sure before I get into it. I've been reading and watching videos, so I'm pretty confident on how to tackle it.
Quote from: Shift-E on May 31, 2017, 07:56:53 AM
So how many turns does the air/fuel needle need to come out? The wiki says 2-4 (which is a huge difference). Manual says 2 and 1/4 for UK models, but "preset" for US models. What the heck is preset supposed to mean?
Am I right to assume, since i did the 40 and 125 jets like the UK models, that I should go for the 2 and 1/4 turns?
You will need to adjust the mixture once you put it all back together. Start with 2 1/4 turns out and this will allow the bike to start.
Then (my quick instructions):
1. start the bike with the choke, and then go ride. Shut off the choke after about 2 minutes or so of running. Ride for 15 minutes or more to ensure the bike is fully warmed up. You may have to pull over and adjust the idle speed intermittently while you ride to keep it from stalling or surging.
2. when you get home from the warm-up ride, shut the bike off and put it on the center stand. Start it back up again.
3. Set the idle speed to about 1500 rpm or so.
4. Start with one carb. Adjust the idle mixture so that the idle speed increases. Keep turning the screw in whichever direction increases the idle speed until it stops increasing and begins to decrease, then move it back in the other direction 1/4 turn.
5. Reset the idle speed to 1500 rpm and repeat step 4 for the other carb.
6. Once both carbs are set, reset the idle speed to about 1200 rpm.
Now you should put your idle mixture tool in your pocket and ride the bike a bit with planned stops to tweak the idle mixture. When you come to a stop light or stop sign, note whether the idle returns to 1200 rpm rapidly or if it "hangs up" and takes a few seconds or more to return to idle. If it hangs up, then one or both, the idle mixture is too lean, and the idle speed is set too high. In this case, turn both idle screws out 1/4 turn and re-set the idle speed (it will only require about 1/8 turn or less of idle speed knob). Ride some more. Repeat this. Make sure the bike is FULLY WARMED UP. I personally found I was still tweaking this when the bike had been run up to an hour before I got it absolutely dialed. Season change here required me to make a minor adjustment to the idle speed alone.
That's how I do it :) Others likely can point to better instructions. But truly the key for me has been to understand two things: 1. you can't set the idle speed or mixture correctly until it is FULLY WARMED UP, and I mean, 15 minutes or more of actual riding on the road, and 2. the "hanging idle" is caused BOTH by lean condition AND idle speed set too high, so the solution is not always to enrichen, sometimes it's to just turn down the idle speed a touch.
Oh, and do a plug check after you ride for a while.
Gunson ColorTune or the portable wideband analyzer are awesome ideas for setting this better than my shadetree method. I don't have either tools.
Man, this is gonna be really tough to do without a tach lol
Quote from: Shift-E on May 31, 2017, 09:17:22 AM
Man, this is gonna be really tough to do without a tach lol
Not really. You can do all of this by ear. In fact the "adjust until the idle stops increasing" is purely by ear. And someone with experience with riding a correctly tuned GS will be able to set the idle speed to ~1200 by ear. Hanging idle is a by-ear exercise as well. I only use the tach to verify my final idle speed.
I don't have that experience quite yet lol. With this being my first bike and I haven't even ridin it yet :P
But I am enthusiastic and optimistic so I will get it done! Currently looking for simple aftermarket tachs that I can use as a temporary fix in case I feel i need that reading.
Quote from: Shift-E on May 31, 2017, 10:00:17 AM
I don't have that experience quite yet lol. With this being my first bike and I haven't even ridin it yet :P
Then in that case set it for 2 1/4 turns out on both carbs, adjust the idle speed WITH THE BIKE FULLY WARMED UP to a little faster than as low as it will go without stalling (it will idle at 5-7K with choke!!) then go ride and don't worry about it. Make friends with an experienced GS500 owner and tune it up later.
You don't need a tach and this convoluted idle mixture adjustment is not critical. US bikes from the factory had the idle mixture screws plugged with anti-tamper plugs and thousands of them are running around with untouched factory settings. Yours will be fine.
Quote from: mr72 on May 31, 2017, 10:08:00 AM
Then in that case set it for 2 1/4 turns out on both carbs, adjust the idle speed WITH THE BIKE FULLY WARMED UP to a little faster than as low as it will go without stalling (it will idle at 5-7K with choke!!) then go ride and don't worry about it. Make friends with an experienced GS500 owner and tune it up later.
You don't need a tach and this convoluted idle mixture adjustment is not critical. US bikes from the factory had the idle mixture screws plugged with anti-tamper plugs and thousands of them are running around with untouched factory settings. Yours will be fine.
This makes it so much easier haha. Thanks mr72! Hopefully I can have her running by the weekend :D
Good news, cleaned it up and reassembled everything. The kit did actually come with all the orings necessary, including the one for the fuel/air screw.
Bad news. How important is that little washer between the oring and spring on the fuel/air screw? One of them is missing...
The bike is all back together now, minus the gas tank. Tomorrow I'll try finishing putting it all on and firing it up while praying that everything worked.
Quote from: Shift-E on May 31, 2017, 06:18:51 PM
Bad news. How important is that little washer between the oring and spring on the fuel/air screw?
100% won't run even close to right without it.
You're joking, right?
Quote from: Shift-E on May 31, 2017, 06:31:59 PM
You're joking, right?
Unfortunately, no. You need that washer. Find it. Not kidding.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUU
I thought it was just a washer to help protect the oring from thwspring a bit and I'd be okay to go without it..
Nope. While it does keep the o-ring (that new one, that's hard to find, the one you don't want to screw up...) from getting chewed up by the end of the spring, the real purpose here is to seal fuel in the pilot orifice under the pilot jet, and to seal air out of that space.
The washer backs the o-ring, the o-ring seals against the inside of the little channel and the shaft of the needle. Fuel flows through the orifice and takes a 90-degree turn upward into the jet, flowing basically over the top of this o-ring-washer setup. With no washer fuel will leak out the pilot needle/screw in conditions of low vacuum (idle), then when vacuum increases (off idle, higher velocity air over the pilot jet) it will draw air in past this o-ring, essentially a targeted vacuum leak right at the pilot jet. Both situations will make it run very lean at idle, no different than having no o-ring or a bad/hard o-ring in that spot.
So if you already assembled it this way, most likely you need a new o-ring AND a new washer. And you are soon to find that a fresh o-ring, that is one that's soft and pliable instead of the decades-old one that was likely in there before, is very difficult to get out of that hole for replacement. So you'll be tempted to roll the dice and leave the potentially damaged one in there when you get a new washer. If you do that, then you will likely wind up with the same problems I describe above, which is a carb that runs lean at idle and part throttle up to about 4K rpm no matter how you adjust the mixture screw. You'll be back here asking more questions about it and I'll be the guy here telling you to fix it right once and for all and get that o-ring out and replace it.
I know this because this is almost exactly what I did but there was nobody to tell me about this o-ring so I discovered it on my own.
So if you haven't put that needle back in yet because you lost the washer, do yourself a favor and stop now, get a new washer, (doesn't HAVE to be Suzuki but it HAS to be the exact same size), and don't put the needle back in the carb until you have a new washer.
If you have put the needle back, well it's up to you whether you want to roll the dice once you get a new washer. Guess it can't hurt. But first sign of it not running right, you'll be pulling the carbs back off to get that o-ring replaced so if you already have the bike apart, I'd just leave it alone until I could get a new washer and o-ring.
BTW I have a good cheap source of these o-rings but dunno where the washer is going to come from. I'd say a local dealer is likely to be where to get it, probably take them a week to get it in for you and cost $2 but at least you won't pay $8 for shipping. If you were local I'd let you have one off of my spare carbs. And I'd adjust the carbs for you :)
Quote from: mr72 on June 01, 2017, 05:04:22 AM
Nope. While it does keep the o-ring (that new one, that's hard to find, the one you don't want to screw up...) from getting chewed up by the end of the spring, the real purpose here is to seal fuel in the pilot orifice under the pilot jet, and to seal air out of that space.
The washer backs the o-ring, the o-ring seals against the inside of the little channel and the shaft of the needle. Fuel flows through the orifice and takes a 90-degree turn upward into the jet, flowing basically over the top of this o-ring-washer setup. With no washer fuel will leak out the pilot needle/screw in conditions of low vacuum (idle), then when vacuum increases (off idle, higher velocity air over the pilot jet) it will draw air in past this o-ring, essentially a targeted vacuum leak right at the pilot jet. Both situations will make it run very lean at idle, no different than having no o-ring or a bad/hard o-ring in that spot.
Sigh. Ya, that makes sense. I just had high hopes that i'd be okay lol.
Quote from: mr72 on June 01, 2017, 05:04:22 AM
So if you already assembled it this way, most likely you need a new o-ring AND a new washer. And you are soon to find that a fresh o-ring, that is one that's soft and pliable instead of the decades-old one that was likely in there before, is very difficult to get out of that hole for replacement. So you'll be tempted to roll the dice and leave the potentially damaged one in there when you get a new washer. If you do that, then you will likely wind up with the same problems I describe above, which is a carb that runs lean at idle and part throttle up to about 4K rpm no matter how you adjust the mixture screw. You'll be back here asking more questions about it and I'll be the guy here telling you to fix it right once and for all and get that o-ring out and replace it.
I actually did remove it right after I got your message. It all came out easily. I don't know how much damage the spring alone would have done to the o-ring. However, since I need to order the washer anyways, i'm going to order 2 o-rings with it just for the piece of mind. Im going to swallow the cost of the dealership due to ease. I know your source has them for like 50c, but shipping to Canada isn't worth the price difference at the end of the day for me :/
Like you said, might as well make sure that it's all perfect now, instead of having to rip open the carbs again.
Quote from: Shift-E on June 01, 2017, 05:56:25 AM
Like you said, might as well make sure that it's all perfect now, instead of having to rip open the carbs again.
:thumb:
Wish I had been that smart when I was fixing up my bike.
Parts in Canada are so damn expensive. but oh well, i'll absorb the cost.
I ended up getting 2 rings, 2 washers, and 2 springs (just in case i wanted to change them because i'm a little suspicious of mine). Paying $45 after tax with next day pick up so I can have it before the weekend.
The reason i'm so eager to fix the bike now, is because if I don't have it on the road and ready to drive before the middle of June, I am not going to be insuring the bike to ride this year and i'll need to wait til next year. The cost of insurance wouldn't make any sense.
I don't know what it's like in your area, but in Ontario you need to insure the bike for a full year, even though we cant actually ride it from say late October to April. So insuring the bike to ride for just around 3ish months this year doesn't make sense. I was quoted around 1200 (Ontario has some of the highest insurance costs. Other places were quoting me at over 2000). Mostly because I am a new rider, and have never had bike insurance before. But ya, I'm itching to get this road worthy in the next week lol
Sounds like sound logic to me!
You don't want to hear it, but my insurance is more like $100/year, and here in Central TX if you can stand the heat there's no reason not to ride year-round. There may be a couple of weeks that it is too rainy or barely too cold for recreational riding, and I think July and August are going to be really iffy considering the lows in the AM will be in the 80s and the highs in the upper 90s to 105F which sounds like an awful time to be on a motorcycle. I am a "new rider" but not what anyone would call "youthful" and I only have liability insurance.
Im 25 and only have my M2 license and I haven't even had it for a year, so it is more expensive. In Ontario we have a graduated licensing system, M1, M2, M (for motorcycles. For cars it is G1, G2, G). I have had my M2 for less than a year. It is basically like a full license but with a few more restrictions. I need to wait another year before I can apply for the full M. The M1 is essentially a learners permit for bikes.
But now we're getting a little off topic lol. I just cant wait to riiiiide
SHE LIIIIVES. MY FRANKENSTEIN LIIIIVES.
She got running, but was screaaaaaaming. Like it was at wide open throttle or something. It was even starting up without using the choke :S. Figured out the problem was a mixture of throttle cable and the fact that the idle adjustment screw was too tight. So i loosened it completely and she seems to be running at a good idle with choke on. But that's when things went bad... i must have somehow tore a pinhole in the reserve fuel line... so now im leaking fuel and need a new line there before i can do a proper test ride.
For the fuel line, is there anything I can do as a temp fix? Like could i tape the line? I know i should change the line, but I'm just curious for something that'll work for a test ride before I take it to do a proper safety test.
Any job worth doing is worth doing right.
Don't potentially strand yourself. Just replace the line. It takes 10 minutes to run to AutoZone, 5 minutes to replace, and costs $2.
So any fuel line will do? Or do I need to get OEM line?
Quote from: Shift-E on June 02, 2017, 05:22:43 PM
For the fuel line, is there anything I can do as a temp fix? Like could i tape the line?
There is always time to do the job properly the second time.
Tape won't work to keep the fuel in. You need a new hose. One of those hoses has different IDs on each end (but I can't remember which fuel line it is). I'd take a look at it and if it is the same ID on both ends, just go and buy some generic hose rated for petrol.
New fuel line in! And it was surprisingly difficult to find. Ended up going to two different places but they didnt have anything that matched the OD. Their hoses were much too thick due to them being braided. Ended up going to the dealership and they gave me a new hose (though after closer inspection the ID might be slightly smaller, but it fit). The hose is clear so at least I'll always know how much fuel i have left in my reserve line lol.
Rode the bike around for about 15 minutes in my neighborhood and got it to operating temperature. Then i adjusted the idle to so that with choke OFF it was a little bit above the point of stalling. Rode it around the neighborhood some more and it felt good to ride still so I think I got it (roughly) right.
Side note. When it comes to fuel in the reserve line. Should i switch the bike to reserve when I fill up the tank so that it can cycle fresh gas in there? Otherwise its just sitting in there never being used, and it could possibly go bad with time. No?
To the best of my knowledge the bike is running OK/Good now. I want to give a huge thank you to everyone on here that helped me out. Especially mr72 for his outstanding patience with me! Without you all I would have never gotten the bike going :D
Now all thats left is rear brake pads, and a couple rubber spacers in places to stop some rattling pieces lol. There was a lot of those missing from the previous owner...
Quote from: Shift-E on June 03, 2017, 02:06:01 PMSide note. When it comes to fuel in the reserve line. Should i switch the bike to reserve when I fill up the tank so that it can cycle fresh gas in there? Otherwise its just sitting in there never being used, and it could possibly go bad with time. No?
Whenever I would start a bike up that had been sitting for any length of time, I would use Reserve to get any water out of the bottom of the tank...so I say why not.
(and when switching to Reserve, the trick is remembering to switch back to On...Ha!)
Thanks for the confirmation, Stevo!
Glad to read this thread and see ya got everything pretty well sorted out Shift-E !!
What I do is ride until I feel the bike start to run out of gas, then reach down behind my knee and flip to reserve. Then head home or to the nearest gas station. That way I know I'm always keeping that line clear. When I get to the station and fill up, just as Stevo said, I flip it back to on :thumb: It's a good thing to get used to knowing how to do, flipping to reserve while riding IMO.
Quote from: ShowBizWolf on June 05, 2017, 11:34:59 AM
Glad to read this thread and see ya got everything pretty well sorted out Shift-E !!
What I do is ride until I feel the bike start to run out of gas, then reach down behind my knee and flip to reserve. Then head home or to the nearest gas station. That way I know I'm always keeping that line clear. When I get to the station and fill up, just as Stevo said, I flip it back to on :thumb: It's a good thing to get used to knowing how to do, flipping to reserve while riding IMO.
Oh I most definitely would switch to it when I need it, but knowing myself i'd probably be filling up before I got to that point. And if I'm always filling without ever using the reserve line, I just don't want to risk letting what is actually in the line go stale. Thus, I think it would probably be beneficial to run the bike on reserve for a few minutes after filling up the tank, just to cycle some fresh gas in there. Just a random thought that came into my mind lol
After cleaning out the dirty carbs due to old gas mucking them up, I want to avoid doing that again for as long as possible :P
Quote from: Shift-E on June 05, 2017, 11:44:02 AM
After cleaning out the dirty carbs due to old gas mucking them up, I want to avoid doing that again for as long as possible :P
That's a pretty good idea. However in the grand scheme of things, I bet you wind up using ShowBiz's method of refreshing the reserve fuel in the line more often than you think you will. Even with the best of intentions I've done this three or four times in just about 7 months of riding. I have gone about 2K miles in that time though...
How could just cause more problems than it fixes I have worked on commercial Golf Course equipment for over 40 years Z's machines accumulate a lot more dust microscopic grass clipping probably that anymore machine the $70,000 plus machines I work on always have a gas filter between the petcock and the carb you just have to make sure they can handle the volume of fuel or then you might have problems otherwise it's a no-brainer if you have any kind of rat inside your hoses or the screen in the gas tank could have a hole in it this fuel line filter assuming it is the right one can have no little effect in fact this is your last defense against s*** getting your carb what seems to be a problem of a lot of these issues on this GS website