OK myself and many others on this forum like the GS500, but realize that it is dated in it's execution . If Suzuki was going to blank slate a NEW GS500 from the ground up what should it be. Note that nowdays manufacturers use motors ( even frames) as platforms for a small RANGE of bikes, so you don't have to downsay someone that wants a different type of approach to you. Please approach it as a "whole of bike" concept not just one or two things you would like , if possible.
I will keep this as a banner line and do a reply for my thoughts.
REMEMBER: whole of bike but keep the IDEA of the GS500 ( twin commuter/touring 500cc economy price range)
OK Here's mine.
500cc( thereabouts), parallel twin 180 or 270 deg ( becomming common) crank, water cooled. EFI. twin cam or single cam with rockers ( ease of maintenence), TWIN valves, medium compression ( except maybe a sports version), short skirt coated pistons, narrow modern crankcases, 6speed gearbox, simple 2 spark plug setup with ACCESSIBLE plugs. around 50HP would be fine. Motor no physically bigger than it need to be.
Bike to weight no more than 160kg.
17" wheels except on a adventure model with 19/17.110 front ,160 rear.
USD forks ( Hyosung can do it for cheap so can Suzuki. They are tied companies, or were).
Linkage rear suspension alloy of light steel formed swingarm.
Light alloy main frame.
Bolt on steel rear frame ( so it can take racks for luggage)
Decent two seat setup separate so the rear can be removed and replaced with a rack. Well designed main seat.
Light weight approach ( not fragile) to whole bike.
17 to 19 litre petrol tank.
Fully raired sports and adventure touring model, naked commuter or maybe factory "cafe racer" model.
Priced similiarly to current model ( yamaha did it afterall with a totally new bike .MT/FZ07)
Properly design LED headlights. All other lighting LED.
Low/medium standover like the current GS500 ( one of it's strong points for wide acceptance).
There ya go. Give us your desires.
Copy/paste Honda CB500F, done.
Oh, make sure the horn and turn signal switches are in the proper orientation, too.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to not have to take off the fuel tank and half the electrics and use a mile long extension to get at the spark plugs. The CB has those "pauldrons" flanking the tank and they're basically hollow. Honda could have been a little more efficient with stuffing them with ancillaries...
If you go through and modernise most of the features of the GS500E you rapidly end up at the CB400SF (in my opinion at least). Which is a very handsome learner-suitable UJM with all the bells and whistles (and a price to match) - abs, fuel injection, twin front discs, vtec, water cooling, 16v inline 4.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/CB400SF_2.JPG)
The reality is that if you start throwing alloy frames, water cooling, new engines, etc in the GS it rapidly just becomes another bike entirely. You know farmer's axe and all...
Aesthetically what is it that makes the GS500? The F model has a fairly recognisable look, but with the naked I can't really point out the one stand out design feature. Or have I missed it? (don't get me wrong: it's wonderfully utilitarian and I like the UJM look)
Anyway here's my wishlist for a 2018 GS update (kept minimal):
fuel injection
more comfortable seat
twin disc, abs
The 3 most important features are fuel injection, fuel injection, and fuel injection.
Both the cb500 models and especially the cb400f weight a ton. The 400F is also a 4 which is outside the parameters ( too much complexity. Stupid engine config for a motorcycle especially a small one with 4 cyl. Fine for a racing motor ,stupid for a commuter /tourer).
In addition to all these I want belt drive and a 15" or 16" rear tire.
So we don't have to fork over 150 for a 17 that lasts 3000 miles.
Oh yea, plastic gas tank. The rusting crap is getting a bit old.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: gregjet on May 14, 2017, 06:21:12 PM
Both the cb500 models and especially the cb400f weight a ton. The 400F is also a 4 which is outside the parameters ( too much complexity. Stupid engine config for a motorcycle especially a small one with 4 cyl. Fine for a racing motor ,stupid for a commuter /tourer).
The modern CB500s are pretty light, Honda claims ~415 wet.
Also, the Yamaha FZ6 and Honda Hornet made wonderful commuters and they're both 4-cyl. Obviously it's subjective.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 14, 2017, 06:35:18 PM
In addition to all these I want belt drive and a 15" or 16" rear tire.
So we don't have to fork over 150 for a 17 that lasts 3000 miles.
Oh yea, plastic gas tank. The rusting crap is getting a bit old.
Cool.
Buddha.
S H A F T D R I V E
H
A
F
T
D
R
I
V
E
[sorry been spending too much time on reddit.]
Quote from: J_Walker on May 14, 2017, 11:38:23 PM
S H A F T D R I V E
[sorry been spending too much time on reddit.]
Shaft on a small bike is $$$ and saps a fair bit of power. Belt is cheaper by far.
Cool.
Buddha.
500cc 2 stroke, adjustable forks, aluminum rear swingarm, fatter tire, higher seat height (about 3in.).
No need to reinvent the wheel. The GS500 engine we all know and love with make more power with fuel injection and with electronic ignition timing control the compression could be increased a touch and increase low end torque. You'd probably wind up with >50hp at the wheel and significantly more torque with EFI+ignition. If Ducati can make a standard with air cooling, no reason a new GS couldn't be air-cooled.
Aluminum trellis frame similar to (or nearly identical to) the SV650 frame but with a more flexible retro-ish seat (one-piece), intentional rear mud-guard, limited/no fairings on an "E" model, round headlight, more forward foot controls than an SV for slightly more upright/standard riding position. Recycle the SV650 fork and rear suspension as-is.
Make an F model that's fully faired as before. Need to have E and F both available.
Avoid plastic cladding on the E model, as in don't try to make it look like a CB500F, more in the direction of Ducati Monster styling wise. Minimal bodywork formula, kind of simple stripped standard bike.
Target weight 360lb dry. Again if Duc can do it with an 800cc bike with 75hp then no reason Suzuki can't.
The bike needs standard ABS for any new offering.
Basically what I'm describing is an SV650N like a first-gen SV with a new 500-700cc air-cooled fuel-injected parallel twin and more standard/upright seating and riding position. Make it $1K less MSRP than SV650 and I think Suzuki would have a winner on their hands. Problem with this formula is that the bike would be too close to an SV650 market-wise and still leaves a hole in the Suzuki lineup competing with the 300cc bikes from the other Japanese companies. So maybe they make a tuned-up 350cc twin that makes ~40hp for this bike, find a way to get it down to 320 lb, and box the ears of Honda/Yamaha/Kawasaki a little bit. They'd probably sell a ton in every place besides the USA.
Quote from: pliskin on May 15, 2017, 05:28:30 AM
500cc 2 stroke, adjustable forks, aluminum rear swingarm, fatter tire, higher seat height (about 3in.).
if we're bring back 500cc two strokes, I want an I4! sometimes I wonder what it'd take to stuff a modern snowmobile 3cylinder two stroke in a motorcycle frame. I think it would be a HUGE ball of SCARY
fun.
but those 90's 500cc two stroke GP bikes... URGHHHH YEEESSSSSSSSSSS
No street legal motorcycle will ever again be made with a two stroke engine. Sorry guys. The EPA has spoken.
Quote from: mr72 on May 15, 2017, 12:30:05 PM
No street legal motorcycle will ever again be made with a two stroke engine. Sorry guys. The EPA has spoken.
There is one more design of two stroke/diesel type engine that has yet gotten past papers, on paper it works very well and is about as efficient as it gets for any combustion engine. the guy on engineering explained talked about it in the past. I believe it has some sort of issue that nobody has come up with a "fix" for to actually make it work. but nothings impossible.
that being said, as long as you lived in a state where there was no state inspection required on vehicles.. and they made a 500CC i4 2stroke "dirtbike" for a little while... I'd totally buy it and stuff it in a regular motorcycle. EPA EAT MY GREY AREA! :flipoff:
" The modern CB500s are pretty light, Honda claims ~415 wet." The specs I see are 428lbs wet. That isn't light. Part of the problem of current bikes is we have got used to big weights because of the 4cyl bikes. MT/FZ07 is 194wet and is a 688cc. Don't get me wrong I think the CBR500 has one of the best motors Honda has made. Just a bit too much weight. Lazy engineering.
A two stroke with a electric/mechanical supercharger and a non crankcase pump design , would be fantastioc and meet pollution guidelines. But I suspect it would be more expensive than a GS500 replacement. Interestingly Suzuki is looking at a supercharger midrange fourstroke twin tourer as we speak.
Buddah remember the CX500. Shaft drive and overengineered one at that. Possible to do it if done properly on a bike this size without too much lose, but your point is valid.
Belt drive could be interesting if done right. Lots of pluses.
"I wonder what it'd take to stuff a modern snowmobile 3cylinder two stroke in a motorcycle frame." I looked at the rotax motors a while ago as a possible project.
Just a note. One of the big things about the current GS500 is that it has good low/mid torque. An i4 motor of 500cc will have more HP but considerable less torque than the cirrent GS500 lump , even fuel injected. That's why I specified twin. It also has more wind resistance. A watercooled trwin with modern crankacse design would be MUCH narrower.
Quote from: gregjet on May 15, 2017, 04:08:26 PM
" The modern CB500s are pretty light, Honda claims ~415 wet." The specs I see are 428lbs wet. That isn't light. Part of the problem of current bikes is we have got used to big weights because of the 4cyl bikes. MT/FZ07 is 194wet and is a 688cc. Don't get me wrong I think the CBR500 has one of the best motors Honda has made. Just a bit too much weight. Lazy engineering.
Uh... Maybe 194
kilograms...
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/YtmtyI.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmYtmtyIj)
That's from YAMAHA. Maybe the engine itself weighs 194 pounds...
But look at the applications. The CB500F is a commuter, plain and simple, and the CBR500R is a sporty styled intermediate bike. They are the GS500E/F of the modern day.
The FZ isn't marketed as a commuter, and it isn't designed as a commuter, it's a little more performance driven since they consider it a "Hyper Naked", or in other words, a street-fighter. They found a way to cut the weight, and if you ask me they did it all in the tail/subframe. The CB500 actually has a decent seating arrangement. The FZ07 is sort of comfortable for the pilot at best.
Quote from: pliskin on May 15, 2017, 05:28:30 AM
500cc 2 stroke, adjustable forks, aluminum rear swingarm, fatter tire, higher seat height (about 3in.).
RG500 Gamma
I've not seen a 2-stroke premix pump in decades, and the last 2-stroke I rode, a RD350LC, was great fun on the one hand, highly impractical on the other, plus with all the smoke one could not help but recall the way Skylab re-entered the atmosphere.
Honda and Kawasaki have both got a thriving 300 and Honda has a 500 as well.
No reason why Suzuki cant get a bite out of all 3 of those with a 500. I suspect someone was asleep at the wheel when they pulled the plug on the GS in 09, after all they had enough left over to keep them selling till 2012 right ?
Anyway they should sort of revert to the stuff they used to already make for the most part. The box section twin spar frame etc etc. I personally think the Honda and kawi look rather tacky plasticky.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 16, 2017, 03:09:59 AM
I suspect someone was asleep at the wheel when they pulled the plug on the GS in 09, after all they had enough left over to keep them selling till 2012 right ?
I think they just considered the cost of updating the engine to meet smog standards and found it would be too expensive to be worth it.
Quote
Anyway they should sort of revert to the stuff they used to already make for the most part.
I totally agree. I think they should bring back the GS500 engine as-is and just fit it with the EFI from the SV650. A little bit of programming and a manifold design is all it needs. They would have to work out where to put a catalytic converter and ignition timing control. Not much engineering. For that matter like you say they could bring back the same frame they always used and recycle fork/brakes/shock from SV. Viola. GS500 comes back.
Since it's an "old" design they should do like Ducati did and make it look somewhat retro. Naked, round headlight, very compact gauges, no side plastics, maybe even make the tank a little more rounded/classic style and add some retro Suzuki graphics. IMHO. Target the Ducati Scrambler buyer.
Quote
I personally think the Honda and kawi look rather tacky plasticky.
Agreed 100%. There is no room in the market for another 300-500cc liquid cooled plastic-clad commuter. Suzuki needs to make something out of the GS500 parts bin to compete with the Ducati Scrambler [/Sixty2], eventually the Yamaha XSR700, etc.
Or for that matter if they could put the GS500 motor into a TU250X that might make a decent GS500 replacement or a good option to compete for the Triumph/MotoGuzzi buyer.
Quote from: mr72 on May 16, 2017, 05:22:32 AM
Quote from: The Buddha on May 16, 2017, 03:09:59 AM
I suspect someone was asleep at the wheel when they pulled the plug on the GS in 09, after all they had enough left over to keep them selling till 2012 right ?
I think they just considered the cost of updating the engine to meet smog standards and found it would be too expensive to be worth it.
Quote
Anyway they should sort of revert to the stuff they used to already make for the most part.
I totally agree. I think they should bring back the GS500 engine as-is and just fit it with the EFI from the SV650. A little bit of programming and a manifold design is all it needs. They would have to work out where to put a catalytic converter and ignition timing control. Not much engineering. For that matter like you say they could bring back the same frame they always used and recycle fork/brakes/shock from SV. Viola. GS500 comes back.
Since it's an "old" design they should do like Ducati did and make it look somewhat retro. Naked, round headlight, very compact gauges, no side plastics, maybe even make the tank a little more rounded/classic style and add some retro Suzuki graphics. IMHO. Target the Ducati Scrambler buyer. Steal the Ducati scrambler buyer. Fixed. :D
Quote
I personally think the Honda and kawi look rather tacky plasticky.
Agreed 100%. There is no room in the market for another 300-500cc liquid cooled plastic-clad commuter. Suzuki needs to make something out of the GS500 parts bin to compete with the Ducati Scrambler [/Sixty2], eventually the Yamaha XSR700, etc.
Or for that matter if they could put the GS500 motor into a TU250X that might make a decent GS500 replacement or a good option to compete for the Triumph/MotoGuzzi buyer.
If we get another GS500. I want to see at least 75HP RWHP, and 65 FT/LB of torque, of course the GS500* probably wouldn't be "500" any more. unless we got a 3rd or 4th cylinder.. I'd be cool with an i3 GS500. GS500 i3 Edition. :)
I'll wind up sounding like a bike snob - but who cares :icon_lol:
Suzuki needs to focus on what made the bike great to begin with...
- relatively indestructible (10k is the normal shifting point, right?)
- utilitarian (bungee straps + grab bars = no need for a pickup truck).
- slightly anemic (translation: I don't die in rain storms)
- air cooled, no ABS, no traction control, no LMNOP..., no nothing... (KISS method)
- conservative geometry (i.e. predictable behavior for unpredictable situations)
- good fuel economy
- better than average ergonomics
- a good fairing that makes the bike feel bigger than it is.
Improvements
- Fuel/Fool injection (but not a ton of extra power)
- adjustable rear shock
- better charging system
I have ridden for 17 years now, 7 years of which have been year-round. Ice on the road is my deal-breaker. I "stepped down" to 2007 GS500F after buying into the bigger is better BS with my first new bike. Multiple, multiple 300+ mile days with tank-to-tank runs. Have 60k and climbing on three GS's (2F + 1E) and I am desperately searching for an alternative until Suzuki wakes up. Have an SV650S, about to sell a Bandit 1250 and about to buy a V-Strom 1000. To this day, I still get more compliments on my GSs and nobody believes they are 500's. Sadly, the V-Strom is the first bike I have ridden that gives me "more" of what I love about riding that my GSs.
... but then again, nobody from Suzuki asked me.
Watcher. Apologies I wrote the metric weight. That's not lbs it's kg. It's reasonably light .
The 07 is not a sports nor a street fighter ( though you could make it one). The bike is cammed for mid range. The power drops off at the top like the Gs500. It 's definitely a commuter/ torque bike. It is very similar to the GS500 around town just feels lighter , a bit more nimble and a bit more power. Same rubbish suspension as stock as the Suzuki. The 07 suffers from a rear weight bias so the Suzuki actually feels a bit more planted.
You could buy the CBR500, if that was what you were in the market for, but that doesn't make you sales if you are Suzuki. As pointed out , they have dropped the ball.
ABS. It will have to have ABS if they want to sell it in Europe. Requirement.
Aircooling. That also will have to go as aircooled motors struggle to meet emissions , particularly nitrogen oxides. With the new stds to get any power it will have to be water cooled/high comp to get any power out of the 500cc lean fuel mix.
myersg11: you seem to have hit a few nails on the head with the good points of the bike. See the ABS and air cooled comments above though. I think that's what most of us like about the bike. Simple, capable, utilitarian. Better fuel economy would help as well. That is usually a by product of current EFI , especially when reflashed to decent specs. Most motors that convert to EFI end up with more mid/low torque, rather than more power, as it is more accurate mix where carbs struggle. The SV650 is a good example. You might has a look at the new tracer700 when it turns up. Most of the problems on the 07 are fixed on it , but it weighs more unfortunately.
If the motor gets watercooling and a new design, it would probably be lower so a cat could easily fit underneath. Of course as Akra pointed out, a motorcycle does not need a cat the size of a small planet to work efficiently. According to him you can achieve proper cat conversion on a motorcycle engine with a cat not much bigger than a fist. And with less restriction.
The Al frame of the SV650 is the sort of thing I had in mind as well, but updated and lightened. It's not a bad frame design at all.
Gauges would depend on the style of the model. I am a fan of electronic gauges ( my GS has an Acewell), but a "cafe racer" style gould have retro gauges. Or a base commuter a simple speedo only ( with included indicator lights).
Quote from: gregjet on May 17, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
Gauges would depend on the style of the model. I am a fan of electronic gauges ( my GS has an Acewell), but a "cafe racer" style gould have retro gauges. Or a base commuter a simple speedo only ( with included indicator lights).
all I want on my gauges is a clock to know what time it is... the wrist watch strapped to the handlebars gets old. lol
and are the SUPER TÉNÉRÉ ES and "Tracer" you mentioned the same bike? URGH WHY NAME CHANGES ACROSS THE POND!? FOR THE SAME THINGS!
hmmmm, looked at yamaha's sport tourers [never thought too tbh never heard much about them..] butttt this FJR1300A.. is shaft drive?! hmmmm this really threw a wrench into my Suzuki VS Aprilia decisions.. maybe its neither and its yamaha... never thought of owning a yamaha ever tho.
Quote from: gregjet on May 17, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
ABS. It will have to have ABS if they want to sell it in Europe. Requirement.
And rightly it should be, it's an excellent safety feature for motorcycles. No brainer. I can't figure why it's not standard on all new bikes.
Quote
Aircooling. That also will have to go as aircooled motors struggle to meet emissions , particularly nitrogen oxides. With the new stds to get any power it will have to be water cooled/high comp to get any power out of the 500cc lean fuel mix.
I disagree completely here. I don't disagree that it's difficult to meet emissions standards with an air cooled engine, but disagree that it's an acceptable change to make for an updated GS500. Ducati can pull off air cooled for the 400/800 Scramblers, certainly Suzuki can make it happen. Air cooled is part of the appeal, part of the simplicity and halps keep the weight down.
Super tenere and Tracer aren't the same bike. The Tenner is going to have a proper offroad chassis as far as I know, and the motor will be cammed differently at the very least.
Watercooling for the following reasons to meet noise and emmision regs. ( plus you can get better HP with little major changes).
Water cooling is MUCH quieter. The euro noise stds are getting tougher and tougher.
Water cooling allows better control of emmisions.
Water cooling allows a much narrower motor.
Water cooling allows higher compression ratios.
Water cooling allows better burn control of lower grade fuels.
Watercooling allows longer life of lubricating oil.
Water cooling allows the oil temp to remain better controled for the gearbox and clutch wear and action.
Other than that no need for water cooling. It is well proven and reliable on modern bikes.
Anything above 50HP would steal sales from the SV650 naked/V-Strom 650, especially in markets that have tiered licensing, so Suzuki won't do it.
I'd like to see them update the GS with fuel injection and modern metallurgy/modern tech (abs) and make it a 2 sizes 300/500 like Honda. They could then use that "updated" engine in a GS, a Rebel style small cruiser, and a "adventure" style baby wee-strom. They could even try to match the RC390 with a sporty 'F' variant.
But it's all dreams. Suzuki is still in "cost savings mode" since the 2008 collapse. Hell, they let the GSXR flagships go 6+ years without major changes, they sure aren't going to throw cubic dollars at a the GS. Not unless they can spread the cost over multiple models that will sell around the world with minimal changes, and small displacement bikes outsell "big" bikes in most of the world. That also means we probably won't get a lightweight frame or cornering ABS, as the emerging markets won't support the price points they require.
One thing most forget is that much of Suzuki was in the tsunami zone. They are struggling ( or at least that is what I was told), and only just getting it back together.
Random : some nice ideas in there and good points, especially about the competition with the SV, but a lot of the world has a 500cc limit still. No competition there. Again same capacity applies to both difference in registrations and beginner sizing ( eg. Australian capacity/power to weight restrictions) . A unmodded 500 would be better than a choked 650, as there seems to a a buyer resistance to a LAMS bike that is chocked, as opposed to a single open model ( eg the SV650 LAMS and the GS500. easier to sell the 500 than the underpowered 650). Particularly in the second hand market. Emulating the Honda (true) , Kwaka and Yammaha mid capacity model approach would seem to make sense
Suzuki has just released a brand new GSXR , I believe. This market could shift a bit if the mooted changes come to Superbike etc racing at the global level.
They could put that savage 650 motor in a standard and a sportier standard - but likely will get bitted by epa there too cos it is a new model.
I cant understand how they can keep making the same S40 from 1986 basically and not have epa issues but not the GS of 89. Yea its an older motor, but the savage isn't any better either, even older tech. Rocker arms and what not.
A GS motor with the water cooling and EFI updates could replace the S40 in the cruiser and the endure style could replace the DR650. That's also a limp and dying arm of Suzuki.
Merge all those into 1 motor with 3-4 body styles. S40, DR6, GS-S (naked) and GS-R (fairing). All with belt drive and all with 15" rear wheels. I'd buy 1 of each.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 19, 2017, 05:06:35 AM
They could put that savage 650 motor in a standard and a sportier standard - but likely will get bitted by epa there too cos it is a new model.
I cant understand how they can keep making the same S40 from 1986 basically and not have epa issues but not the GS of 89. Yea its an older motor, but the savage isn't any better either, even older tech. Rocker arms and what not.
A GS motor with the water cooling and EFI updates could replace the S40 in the cruiser and the endure style could replace the DR650. That's also a limp and dying arm of Suzuki.
Merge all those into 1 motor with 3-4 body styles. S40, DR6, GS-S (naked) and GS-R (fairing). All with belt drive and all with 15" rear wheels. I'd buy 1 of each.
Cool.
Buddha.
15 inch wheels, yuck. no way on the dual sports...
Interesting approach Buddah. Why 15" wheels? I am curious.
Quote from: gregjet on May 19, 2017, 01:59:09 PM
Interesting approach Buddah. Why 15" wheels? I am curious.
Inexpensive tars that will run 15k, like those cheng shin's I have on my savage.
The street and sport versions could have mag's, the cruiser with steel laced and dual sport with aluminum laced. They used to do it in the 80's. Now what's the problem.
Besides the DR 650, the RM450, savage etc etc will be under 1 umbrella.
Using the same drivetrain/wheel combo = they can control power and what not with just electronic mappings.
They wont have to gear these differently like the rebel/nighthawk 250 set which Honda got horribly wrong on the rebel.
Cool.
Buddha.
There is a modern GS500, it's called the SV650. :)
There is an even more modern take.......the SFV650 Gladius.
It features and includes a lot of the things that, according to some posters in this thread Suzuki should have included in a revised version of the GS5.
FI
ABS
Digital instruments
Adjustable front and rear suspension
Twin discs
Unfortunately........hardly anyone bought one!!
Actually the SV650 ( and all it iterations) is ALSO a very dated design. Like the GS they designed a bike somewhat ahead of it's time and stuck with it. But it also is suffering form "lardarsededness". Yes a vtwin is a better motorcycle config in my opinion. Especially in smaller and lower power motors, because it pushes less air ( smaller frontal area), especially in watercooled. Would be happy with a lighter weight Vtwin 350-500cc GS300/500 commuter oriented, rather than the large heavy SV more performance design. I am not sure, but I think the motor may be the base for the SV1000 as well ( hopefully someone will know the answer to that). That means it MUST be much bigger than it needs to be.
The trouble is a vtwin is a lot more complicated to design and build. I raced a VTR250 and it is insanely complicated for a twin ( it is however one of the best 250's ever made and totally under-rated) , especially to work on.
The 270 and 90 deg crank parallel twins are still narrow enough ( ie narrower than the rider so don't add to the functional width) and have similar motor characteristics to a v twin without the extra complexity ( and weight). They don't look as good as a vtwin though. They are also shorter and easier to get a good motorcycle fore/aft balance position. The vtwin design does allow you more space above and/orbelow the motor
Quote from: sledge on May 20, 2017, 12:20:45 PM
There is an even more modern take.......the SFV650 Gladius.
Unfortunately........hardly anyone bought one!!
Unfortunately, Suzuki made it look like something out of Farscape.
If the Gladius never existed and they instead just went with the modern SV650 it would have done much better for them.
Quote from: gregjet on May 20, 2017, 03:12:12 PM
Actually the SV650 ( and all it iterations) is ALSO a very dated design. Like the GS they designed a bike somewhat ahead of it's time and stuck with it. But it also is suffering form "lardarsededness". Yes a vtwin is a better motorcycle config in my opinion. Especially in smaller and lower power motors, because it pushes less air ( smaller frontal area), especially in watercooled. Would be happy with a lighter weight Vtwin 350-500cc GS300/500 commuter oriented, rather than the large heavy SV more performance design. I am not sure, but I think the motor may be the base for the SV1000 as well ( hopefully someone will know the answer to that). That means it MUST be much bigger than it needs to be.
The trouble is a vtwin is a lot more complicated to design and build. I raced a VTR250 and it is insanely complicated for a twin ( it is however one of the best 250's ever made and totally under-rated) , especially to work on.
The 270 and 90 deg crank parallel twins are still narrow enough ( ie narrower than the rider so don't add to the functional width) and have similar motor characteristics to a v twin without the extra complexity ( and weight). They don't look as good as a vtwin though. They are also shorter and easier to get a good motorcycle fore/aft balance position. The vtwin design does allow you more space above and/orbelow the motor
Noooooooo a V twin is crap. How does the ninja 650 manage to be skinnier than the sv and its shorter wheel base to boot.
I own an SV1000 I am partial in this game. Love the SV1K, but the Ninja 650 parallel twin kicks the Gheydius's butt.
VTR250's front brake set up was bad enough to make my head hurt looking at it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: sledge on May 20, 2017, 12:20:45 PM
There is an even more modern take.......the SFV650 Gladius.
It features and includes a lot of the things that, according to some posters in this thread Suzuki should have included in a revised version of the GS5.
FI
ABS
Digital instruments
Adjustable front and rear suspension
Twin discs
Unfortunately........hardly anyone bought one!!
I didn't buy one, because NO DAMN CLOCK IN THE DASH! :technical: how else am I suppose to know when to go faster because I'm running late like a mofo. :icon_rolleyes:
really, big pet peve, not having a digital clock in your fancy digital dash. really jerks my chains.
oh and that ugly freakin "the flash" tier peg supports.. or idfk what to call them. that the rear and front pegs are attached too.. whats worse is Suzuki wanted to show it off. as its painted a different color from everything else. stylizing.. Glad was a fail. big one, like, some kid out of highschool graphics design class could of done better...
I'm just going to leave this here....
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2nb6429.jpg)
Quote from: The Buddha on May 20, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
... a V twin is crap. How does the ninja 650 manage to be skinnier than the sv and its shorter wheel base to boot.
Just went to a Kawi demo yesterday. They did a good job making the Ninjas and Z series bikes feel very thin by making the seat and fuel tank very aggressively shaped. They get really narrow right where your legs go, but the engine and frame and rest of the fuel tank are still just as wide as any other typical bike.
Sat on a Honda CB1000 and had the same to say. You could see that it was a wide 4-cylinder but it felt very slender based on the "cockpit".
Still, hopping back on my Duc at the end of the day (a V-twin) it felt overall smaller. It even felt lighter than the Ninja 300 I rode, which was a shock.
The issue that perhaps many Japanese V-twins have is they don't use the same crank journal for both pistons. When you take, say, the crankshaft out of a GS500 and put it in a V-twin engine you end up with something that is the same width as a parallel twin that also needs a much larger engine compartment because of the rear cylinder.
Can't comment on the SV since I didn't get a good look at them at the dealership I was at, but on the Yamaha Bolt series bikes it's really obvious how offset the cylinders are.
Harley uses the same journal and has one piston rod going through the other so the cylinders are perfectly in line with each other. Ducati uses the same journal but the piston rods are side by side so the cylinders are offset ever so slightly, you can barely notice. THESE result in a very narrow motorcycle.
Quote from: J_Walker on May 20, 2017, 10:22:17 PM
Quote from: sledge on May 20, 2017, 12:20:45 PM
There is an even more modern take.......the SFV650 Gladius.
It features and includes a lot of the things that, according to some posters in this thread Suzuki should have included in a revised version of the GS5.
FI
ABS
Digital instruments
Adjustable front and rear suspension
Twin discs
Unfortunately........hardly anyone bought one!!
I didn't buy one, because NO DAMN CLOCK IN THE DASH! :technical: how else am I suppose to know when to go faster because I'm running late like a mofo. :icon_rolleyes:
really, big pet peve, not having a digital clock in your fancy digital dash. really jerks my chains.
oh and that ugly freakin "the flash" tier peg supports.. or idfk what to call them. that the rear and front pegs are attached too.. whats worse is Suzuki wanted to show it off. as its painted a different color from everything else. stylizing.. Glad was a fail. big one, like, some kid out of highschool graphics design class could of done better...
Take a close look at the styling cues of today's naked hypersports , particularly the MT07 and its colour options and combos. Would it be fair to say the Gladius set the trend?.......I think it would.
And on the basis of your comment I also think what you and the rest of the fan club want is a brand new GS5 with all the bells and whistles but still looks like it was designed back in the 80s......right? :D
The MT07 is definitely NOT a hyper sports. The engine characteristics are much more like the GS500. Good low and mid and runs out at the top. It's why I bought one for road riding. It is badly fueled so wheelstands because of the nofuel/all fuel way the ECU delivers fron small throttle openings to big ones, which goes away once the ECU is reflashed properly. That plus rear weight biased and short swingarm with soft suspension. I hate the adolescent manga styling of the MT. I bought it IN SPITE of the styling because the base bike is pretty good. I would be happy if the MT07 styling was less draggy and more smoother lines ( like the GS500), it's true.
The manga styling is a bit of a trick. The japs have rules about how fast a bike is allowed to go. But making the styling basically a parachute you can have big advertised power figures but limit the top speed by the bike having huge drag. Because most modern buyers only care about looks, it is an easy sell. Reckon it's an exaggeration. Have a look at motorcycles actually designed for real speen . The hyabusha is much reviled for it's looks. Why? Because it is designed to have min drag, not max. MotoGP bikes have fairings that look much more like the GS500 than modern bikes with their sticky out bits. In the 90's everyone would just disable the speed limiting stuff on the bike ( speed and power limiters etc), so they went stealth limiting in an area that most riders won't touch ( or to be honest, understand).
Buddah: I am at a loss at your comments about the VTR250 front brake. I raced it and a CBR250RR ( twin discs), and to be honest I liked the VTR single disc brakeing better ( bendix pads in both and HEL brakelines on both). The VTR did have an aftermarket ultralightweight disc, so the material may have been a better disc material than the stock one. And VTR weighed nearly 40kgs less which I guess helped.
Hmmm a clock on the dash certainly would have no influence on my decision to purchase a bike but it certainly would be easy enough to include nowdays.
" but still looks like it was designed back in the 80s......right? " except for my dislike of manga styling , I would be happy with a bike that looks like a modern designed bike, FROM AN ENGINEERING point of view. Actual artistic aesthetics are pretty irrevelant to me.
BTW if you want to see what a SV650 would look like if it was designed by Ducati/Cagiva and engineered to be light and handle and stop. That is a lightened and modded SV650 motor: (http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/gregjet/20081004_0302-Copy.jpg) (http://s130.photobucket.com/user/gregjet/media/20081004_0302-Copy.jpg.html)
Quote from: sledge on May 21, 2017, 09:41:33 AM
Quote from: J_Walker on May 20, 2017, 10:22:17 PM
Quote from: sledge on May 20, 2017, 12:20:45 PM
There is an even more modern take.......the SFV650 Gladius.
It features and includes a lot of the things that, according to some posters in this thread Suzuki should have included in a revised version of the GS5.
FI
ABS
Digital instruments
Adjustable front and rear suspension
Twin discs
Unfortunately........hardly anyone bought one!!
I didn't buy one, because NO DAMN CLOCK IN THE DASH! :technical: how else am I suppose to know when to go faster because I'm running late like a mofo. :icon_rolleyes:
really, big pet peve, not having a digital clock in your fancy digital dash. really jerks my chains.
oh and that ugly freakin "the flash" tier peg supports.. or idfk what to call them. that the rear and front pegs are attached too.. whats worse is Suzuki wanted to show it off. as its painted a different color from everything else. stylizing.. Glad was a fail. big one, like, some kid out of highschool graphics design class could of done better...
Take a close look at the styling cues of today's naked hypersports , particularly the MT07 and its colour options and combos. Would it be fair to say the Gladius set the trend?.......I think it would.
And on the basis of your comment I also think what you and the rest of the fan club want is a brand new GS5 with all the bells and whistles but still looks like it was designed back in the 80s......right? :D
I would want the design of a "new" GS500, to either have the tried an true naked sportbike look, or for them to give it more of a highway bike look [someone earlier mentioned competing with ducatis scramblers.] I like the GS for what it is, but besides it needing a clock that ISNT. a wrist watch. my only gripe with them is the weight of the bike, the lack of and power of the bike.. face it, a honda civic off the factory floor, has a better 0-60 then the GS500 ever will, and it SUCKS at pounding it around trucks at 65-70mph on the highway. yeah yeah, its not a highway bike.. but I don't live in europe or japan! so I NEED MORE POWWWAAAAA. Like I said earlier, 75hp 65ft.lb GS500 Triple. they could seriously kill off the SV line if they did that.. Remember when the speed triple came out a couple of years ago.. and it was such a big thing, because it was done right...
There are bikes on the market that offer everything you, and others in this thread say you want.
However......I think the real issue you have is that these machines DONT say GS500 on the side!
:D
Quote from: gregjet on May 21, 2017, 01:37:54 PM
Buddah: I am at a loss at your comments about the VTR250 front brake. I raced it and a CBR250RR ( twin discs), and to be honest I liked the VTR single disc brakeing better ( bendix pads in both and HEL brakelines on both). The VTR did have an aftermarket ultralightweight disc, so the material may have been a better disc material than the stock one. And VTR weighed nearly 40kgs less which I guess helped.
Didn't the VTR250 have that front brake with some funky plastic cover color matched to the body or something ???
Cool.
Buddha.
Buddah, I think you are thinking of the very original VT250 (1980's early) which had "inboard" disc brakes, The cover BTW was pressure cast aluminium. It was still not very useful . I think it was added as the current thinking was that performance discs were cast iron and the actual disc looked bloody aweful. ( and I mean REALLY aweful).
Here is a pic showing the 1999 VTR250 (one of my old race bikes with a Suzuki rgv250 modified fairing):
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/gregjet/VTR250/CIMG0007.jpg) (http://s130.photobucket.com/user/gregjet/media/VTR250/CIMG0007.jpg.html).
I disagree about the GS500 being no good on the highway at 65-70mph ( 100-166pkh) I found it perfectly adequate and the fully faired one excellant. It is the tourer of choice ( and they DO have the choice) for 2 of my friends. I prefer my MT07 but that is because it is now better suspended. The big tank on the GS 500 is really good for touring.
Quote from: sledge on May 21, 2017, 09:42:27 PM
There are bikes on the market that offer everything you, and others in this thread say you want.
However......I think the real issue you have is that these machines DONT say GS500 on the side!
:D
No I want the "scream" and whine of a 1990's GP bike, and never will have it... :laugh:
@greg have you ridden a GS500 on the highway? its a joke getting around anything on the highway, seriously it lacks hard. saying it can "do" highway speeds is like saying you could be spider man.. sure it could, but fails badly at it.
I personally have never had a problem with my GS on the highway. With or without the nose fairing :dunno_black: it always had plenty of "gtfo" if I needed it/wanted it.
This thread is a very good read!
Everyone's highway speeds must be averaged at 55mph. Meanwhile I hopped on the highway today and the moving speed was 85mph.
Ahh okay. Yeah the highway here is 55 limit, so people usually go about 65/70 lol... and if I wanna get around someone going that fast (which almost never ever ever ever ever everrrrrrrr happens) I'd hafta be going 75+... then, I've never had an issue. Just tuck and go!!! But yeah 85, not around here.
Yeah, noticed I said moving speed, not speed limit though, I want that to be clear.. the speed limit it normally 65-70ish and if traffics groovin' its 80-85. if its 4 in the morning, it's 90-100. Maybe florida's drivers are just fast... :icon_lol:
my dreams and opinions are just that, mine. people can disagree with me, muh feewings won't get hurtsy wursty.
Never had trouble getting mine over 80mph. Commuted nearly every day by interstate, posted speeds 55, average speeds closer to 70...
Closer to 90 it would run out of pulling power, but it would eventually make it's way to 100 if given enough time and no headwind...
Quote from: Watcher on May 22, 2017, 10:06:27 PM
Never had trouble getting mine over 80mph. Commuted nearly every day by interstate, posted speeds 55, average speeds closer to 70...
Closer to 90 it would run out of pulling power, but it would eventually make it's way to 100 if given enough time and no headwind...
the GS500 has no "safety" in terms of speed after 70mph, the amount of torque and horsepower needed to up and go to move out of a way, it just doesn't have..
that's another benefit of Florida drivers, they are very very angry. especially old Hispanic women.. road rage happens often, an the ability to "move" yourself between say two cars away from a raging old women in a 4000lb battering ram. happens more often then I'd care to admit.
and inb4 quit pissing off drivers... I have friends mothers, even a nurse at my doctors office, who all admit to being mad at motorcyclist because they think we're somehow getting somewhere faster then them.. [mind you lane splitting in Florida is illegal, but still happens due to OTHER motorcyclist riding litre bikes thinking their unstoppable.] or people who are like my father, who hate when you're GOING the speed limit, and will tailgate you until you speed up with the rest of traffic.
and again not saying the "GS500" CANT do highways. It just barely can do them.. and leaves you wanting more for safety reasons, or just getting around a whole line up dump trucks carrying rocks and sand in the right two lanes... mmmmmmmmmmmm good for the skin.
IDK, man, I lived and rode in Chicago where everyone drove very aggressively. I've been cut off, tailgated, merged into, passed in my own lane, brake checked, forced off the road, etc, and I stuck with the GS for a good 3 years. I ended up with a second GS, even. Furthermore I "upgraded" to a Honda 500 twin.
Never felt like more power was really necessary.
Not saying more power wouldn't have benefitted me, but I think you aren't giving the little twin enough credit. It does just fine on the highway.
Now a 250cc, I'd say you are gambling with your life taking that on I294! :laugh: THAT fits your "can barely do it" description.
I always say, everyone can ALWAYS ride/drive better. no matter how good you think you are at behaving an following road rules, we all have habits. My 02 SV650 I would say was a good power amount, not too much, but not as little as the GS500. Frankly when I can afford it, the GS500 will get garaged once again, and i'll ride what ever I get next.. but for now it's all I got.
Man, so much to comment about on this.
First of all, if traffic is moving at 85mph, then it's hard to understand the need to "get around" another vehicle. In other words, what's the real need to have excess power to pass a vehicle moving at 85mph? If there's a slow-moving vehicle, gravel truck, whatever, then a GS500 has more than enough power to pass it. But if you're seriously talking about a real need to go 100mph on public roads with posted speeds of 65-75mph, well I just can't possibly relate. I hope you get arrested driving like that.
To avoid an accident or collision you know the brakes are far more effective and safe to use than accelerating away from trouble. Going faster when trouble approaches is maybe not the best plan.
Anyway, I'm not the right person to argue this. I don't like riding on the highway due to wind and the "if you crash" safety issue so I avoid it. But I can assure you a GS500 is fast and powerful enough to use on the freeway at legal speeds in the USA.
Guess it depends on personal weight and state of tune.
Don't have any trouble going from 70-90+ in a hurry from 6th gear on my 02 GS. May folks think flooring it is best, but that just bogs it down, progressive roll on is best.
Lot of it also comes down to planning, awareness, and not panicking. Don't really remember a moment in over 100k miles I needed "max acceleration" to do anything other than just because.
Mr Walker ( oh ghost who walks), I have a friend that did the big lap around the outside of Australia . That's over 9000miles. He said he never felt he needed more HP including passing triple dogie road trains in the unrestricted speed limit Northern Territory ( NT has since restricted top speed to 100kph and special 120kph). For most of this country , you speed, you lose your licence. Most sit on 105kph in 100 zones and 124 in 120 zones.
I rode a cx500 from Townsville to South Australia 7000km and again never felt I needed more power. Easy cruise.
I travelled 6000km to Phillip Island in 2014 on my Husky TR650. About the same weight and HP as the GS500 ( but WAAAY better suspension). No problems cruising nor passing. It takes about 13HP to do 60miles an hour on a motorcycle sitting upright.
You are correct, if you can travel at those speeds you mentioned, especially if you lived in Germany with the Autobahns, but our ( Aussie) roads are simply not good enough to consistantly travel at big speeds ( there are exceptions and I know people that DO . I also have HAD many friends that DID always travel at thos speeds and aren't with us any longer. Quite a few when you get to my age).
Of course the limit on speed is wind resistance and the F Suzy has a resonably slippery fairing so needs less HP to go and to accelerate at those speeds than a naked.
Our Florida equivalent drivers are Sydney drivers.
Doesn't matter what size motor you have when it comes to rocks and sane blasting. Hmmmm exfoliation...my skin feels sooo smooth.
Rock and sand blasting?.. sure just go around the big trucks.. but when their is 5 in a row.. it doesn't really wanna choo choo fast enough, gotten a few damaged visors this way... :laugh:
but what ever. everyone here seems to think their GS500 isn't scooter tier [when it is.. common now], guess I'm barking up the wrong tree on this forum trying to argue other wise... as it seems those who agree with me, are long gone. This is my last post on this thread.
Quote from: mr72 on May 23, 2017, 12:03:29 PM
Man, so much to comment about on this.
First of all, if traffic is moving at 85mph, then it's hard to understand the need to "get around" another vehicle. In other words, what's the real need to have excess power to pass a vehicle moving at 85mph? If there's a slow-moving vehicle, gravel truck, whatever, then a GS500 has more than enough power to pass it. But if you're seriously talking about a real need to go 100mph on public roads with posted speeds of 65-75mph, well I just can't possibly relate. I hope you get arrested driving like that.
To avoid an accident or collision you know the brakes are far more effective and safe to use than accelerating away from trouble. Going faster when trouble approaches is maybe not the best plan.
Anyway, I'm not the right person to argue this. I don't like riding on the highway due to wind and the "if you crash" safety issue so I avoid it. But I can assure you a GS500 is fast and powerful enough to use on the freeway at legal speeds in the USA.
Arrested? For 100 in a 75 at 4 AM when there's nobody on the road? That's intense, man. 100 MPH on my GS is scary as hell, and I avoid it except for in rare instances. The GS is all I know, but I'm sure 100 on a bigger, heaver bike feels much more planted and is considerably safer.
There are certainly instances, especially on an interstate, where increasing speed is more effective and safer than slowing to avoid an accident. One example - 4 lane divided highway (2 each direction), and I move over into the left lane to pass a line of slow moving vehicles. A car, far exceeding my pace catches up to the line of vehicles, moves over to pass them, and finds me there putting along in the left lane moving 30 MPH slower than he is. By the time he sees me (motorcycles are invisible to cars, you know) he can't slow enough to avoid running into the back of me. I have no escape path to my left, right, or by slowing, however if I'm able to accelerate I avoid a rear-end collision.
Granted, a lot of things would have to go wrong in this circumstance, but it's only one example and crazier things have happened. With the number of distracted or doped up drivers on the road you never know what could happen. Having the capacity to increase your speed from a 70 MPH speed limit in a hurry has its practical applications outside of the racetrack. Of course, if you're the perfect driver who putts along at the posted speed limit in the slow lane all the time, then you probably don't need a faster bike. I'm not advocating riding like a moron, but let's be honest, there are times and places where using the speed limit as a "reference point" is okay IMHO.
Quote from: J_Walker on May 23, 2017, 08:01:50 PM
but what ever. everyone here seems to think their GS500 isn't scooter tier [when it is.. common now], guess I'm barking up the wrong tree on this forum trying to argue other wise... as it seems those who agree with me, are long gone. This is my last post on this thread.
I enjoy my GS a lot, but other than the TU250X I rode for my MSF course, it's all I've ever known. I think many people around here are either in the same boat, or they've ridden bigger bikes and decided that it's not for them. Personally, I'm sure that after I ride something faster I'll be itching for the thrill of it, and once I own something better I'll know the joys of EFI, bigger tires, better suspension, etc. For now, I'll continue to ride and enjoy the GS since it's what I've got.
Quote from: J_Walker on May 23, 2017, 08:01:50 PM
but what ever. everyone here seems to think their GS500 isn't scooter tier [when it is.. common now], guess I'm barking up the wrong tree on this forum trying to argue other wise... as it seems those who agree with me, are long gone. This is my last post on this thread.
Seriously? 13.65 second quarter mile @ 95.5 mph. Under 5 seconds 0-60 time. Those are acceleration numbers only the very fastest cars can touch. If that's not enough for you to make a pass, there's something seriously wrong. If you are stuck on a road with 5 gravel trucks in a row all driving below the speed limit and you think you must pass them all at once, then my honest advice is pull over and take a 5 minute break, let the trucks get a big lead on you and then they won't be in your way.
Or you know, follow the law, pass them one at a time, don't exceed the speed limit to pass, etc.
Geez.
I drove a Miata for 15 years that was a notch slower than my GS500 and just about as exposed to the elements and never once had any problem whatsoever keeping up with or passing whatever traffic I found in my way on any road in the great state of Texas. And with only one tire effectively braking, I think the thing that makes the GS500 dangerous at >20mph above posted freeway speeds is not a lack of power.
Yeah GS500s are not fast enough to really effectively ride like a complete squid.
Quote from: mr72 on May 24, 2017, 06:27:57 AM
...
Yeah GS500s are not fast enough to really effectively ride like a complete squid.
Oh ye of little faith. One can squid on any machine, if the rider is willing. You don't have to be going particularly fast to be a squid, all you need is no gear and intense desire to piss off every driver you pass.
But in all seriousness my highway GS experience has been fine. I don't think more power is wholly unnecessary, but I also don't think that the GS is unsafe on the highway or anything. :dunno_black:
Quote from: qcbaker on May 24, 2017, 07:49:55 AM
Oh ye of little faith. One can squid on any machine, if the rider is willing.
LOL! You may have a point there. I stand corrected.
The GS is definitely a dog on the freeway. Especially with a passenger, or at high elevation, or a strong headwind, or up a steep hill, or on freeways with 70 and 75 mph speed limits where traffic is traveling 80 - 85 mph (I have had to deal with all of the above while loaded with camping gear for a 2 week trip). Where a lot of bikes are comfortable at that speed all day long the GS is running high revs, burning oil and getting poor gas mileage. Yes the bike can do it but you have to be a certain type of rider to put a lot of miles on that way.
If I could get a new GS500 I would prefer it to be closer to 50 hp at the wheel, more torque earlier in the rev range, water cooled, fuel injected and ABS brakes. Other than that I wouldn't change anything. Honda basically makes that bike with their CB500F and CB500X bikes. My GS500 is currently at 40,000 miles. If Suzuki doesn't come out with anything comparable by the time my GS dies I'm going with the Honda.
The "weight" arguement for feeling planted is problematic, as that would make a 165kg MotoGP bike feel unplanted at 300kph ( 180mph). They don't ( they really don't!). Planted is a function of many things weight being only a small part. My 85cc Honda RS125 GP framed race bike felt very planted at 80mph (don't know how it felt above that as the track was too tight for that speed). It weighed 70kg ( yes 158lbs).
50-60HP from a modern designed, EFI, water cooled motor is a no brainer. Dead easy. EFI also gets rid of the altitude problem and gives more midrange torque for two up ( if that's your thing). Acceleration is a function of midrange torque, not upper range HP.
Quote from: gregjet on May 24, 2017, 01:00:17 PM
EFI also gets rid of the altitude problem
So does proper jetting...
If the GS is a dog at "high elevation" try maybe not running jets designed for sea-level air density?
I live at sea level. If I am going to spend a few hours going over a high altitude pass every once and awhile I'm not going to stop and re-jet my bike in the middle of a ride.
FI is a must for any new bike even if you cannot justify it with performance; it is nearly impossible for a new road motorcycle can meet today's emissions standards with carburetors.
I still disagree about liquid cooling, but that's just because I think air cooled motorcycles have a simplicity that's worth keeping if possible, and I dig that rough/raw character of air-cooled bikes. I mean, you go very far on this quest for a new GS500 and you are going to wind up with an SV650 or a Burgman.
@Bluesmudge that's a good point. At the same time, they make thumb-screws for the mixture adjustment.
Actually, I'm kind of curious about how much altitude changes fuel use. I live around 2400' and frequently ride up the mountain to around 9000', and I don't feel like my motorcycle is bogging down or anything up there. Which is odd because I get the feeling my Duc is running a bit rich down in town...
Suzuki should re-make the GS500 into whatever it takes to pass pollution-control standards while keeping the engine as similar as possible. They should make it an 8-valve head and sell the entire top end as a kit we can bolt on our old bikes.
Quote from: mr72 on May 24, 2017, 02:38:53 PM
I mean, you go very far on this quest for a new GS500 and you are going to wind up with an SV650 or a Burgman.
Yuck, V twin - hell no, but thinking it further, Suzuki is just the stupid type to do a 400cc SV.
I'm actually hoping they'd make a single and replace the savage, the DR-650, the GS naked and GS sport bike in 1 swoop.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: ajensen on May 24, 2017, 04:47:00 PM
They should make it an 8-valve head and sell the entire top end as a kit we can bolt on our old bikes.
As cool as that would be you know they won't, too much opportunity to make more money otherwise.
They're in the business of selling motorcycles, people won't be as willing to trade in their old GS for the new one if they could just slap a new head on for a fraction the cost and get a big performance boost.
The probability of it being anything other than a 4 valve on a modern design is pretty slim. Whole host of reasons. Everything from emmisions to compactness of motor. 4 valve motors cost more design, manufacture and set up than the giant 2 valve heads of the GS , so they would not be making 4 valve heads if 2 would do. Even ordinary cars have 4 valve heads and have for a while because it makes the heads smaller and allows emission controls to work better.
Buddah, You have a large aversion to vtwins. Any reason? I love em. The VTR250 is one of my favourite motorcycles ( mini Ducati but more reliable and a clutch that doesn't require a gorilla). I for one would love a well designed Vtwin 400 road bike ( read NOT CRUISER)
I suspect you may be right about a big single road bike though. About time for them to try that one again. The DR650 single is as old ( older?) a design than the gs500. Something along the lines of a DRZ400 design with fuel injection? The Suzi singles vibrate pretty badly so it would require some modern balancing stuff. But a big single can be made pretty smooth . My Husky TR650 ( BMW rotax designed Loncin made) was pretty good for touring, so quite possible to do. The motors tend to end up pretty tall though.
My newer gsxr left me stranded with less than 20k miles.
It's amazing I've ridden a few GSs totaling over 100k miles across states and it has never left me stranded, usually when something goes wrong you can just ride around the problem, still can't believe it. It's nice to have something to put miles on and it's easy to do valve adjustments....the honda cb500 looks difficult....
Quote from: HPP8140 on May 25, 2017, 03:13:07 PM
My newer gsxr left me stranded with less than 20k miles.
It's amazing I've ridden a few GSs totaling over 100k miles across states and it has never left me stranded, usually when something goes wrong you can just ride around the problem, still can't believe it. It's nice to have something to put miles on and it's easy to do valve adjustments....the honda cb500 looks difficult....
Yea GS'es usually limp home if they had to. Newer sport bikes were meant to be crashed in the first year of ownership, and then the manufacturers don't have to honor the warranty.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 24, 2017, 04:59:00 PM
Yuck, V twin - hell no, but thinking it further, Suzuki is just the stupid type to do a 400cc SV.
The SV650 actually started out life as the SV400.
http://www.suzukicycles.org/SV-series/SV400-SV400S.shtml
SV400 is Japan only, right?
That'd be a very cool bike to have if one were to be found here in the USA.
Quote from: mr72 on May 26, 2017, 07:57:14 AM
SV400 is Japan only, right?
That'd be a very cool bike to have if one were to be found here in the USA.
They made the 650 and the 400 at the same time, a year after the TL1000 which was by then roiled in a lawsuit in England. The push away from the "TL" moniker had these 2 being called SV. The 650 came to Europe and US while the 400 did not.
And a V twin is a stupid engine configuration. Its stupid in a cruiser, stupid in a sport bike and definitely stupid in a standard. Its long and not narrow enough, plus 2 valve cover and 2 cam chains as well as 2 separate exhaust headers etc etc. List is endless, in frontal area they can be smaller than a parallel twin, but usually the frontal area is determined by the radiator and that in a V twin has to be good bit bigger cos the rear cyl doesn't get as much air cos the front cyl is blocking it.
Anyway easy to work on and simple don't belong in the same sentence as a V twin.
Yea yea secondary balance crap ... I get that, but you put a 90 degree crank in a parallel twin and you get the same effect.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 26, 2017, 08:54:48 AM
And a V twin is a stupid engine configuration. Its stupid in a cruiser, stupid in a sport bike and definitely stupid in a standard....
Yea yea secondary balance crap ... I get that, but you put a 90 degree crank in a parallel twin and you get the same effect.
:thumb:
I won't debate that point. I dig my parallel twin! Seems like the sweet spot for motorcycle engines.
But I do still desire to own a V-twin bike... one in particular. But my desire to own one is in spite of it being a parallel twin. It just checks all the other boxes that no other new motorcycle does.
Right now I'd settle for a 25 year old GS500 that didn't leak oil.
I wonder if this bike doesn't get pretty close to a new gs500 with everything except the Suzuki brand and all that goes with it.
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/benelli/manufacturerbenelli2016-benelli-tnt-300-review-html.html
Mr72, I think you are right. It does point out the difference a modern watercooled EFI motor and the old GS500 lump. Same HP from 200cc less. Torque won't be the same but it will be fatter down low than it would be if carbed, courtesy of the EFI.
It does show that if Suzi doesn't get it's corporate finger out it is going down.
Oh yea the Chinese will be flooding the market with this crap once benelli goes belly up - again.
Cant wait.
But of course a Chinese crappy bike isn't hard to find these days anyway.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: HPP8140 on May 25, 2017, 03:13:07 PM
My newer gsxr left me stranded with less than 20k miles.
It's amazing I've ridden a few GSs totaling over 100k miles across states and it has never left me stranded, usually when something goes wrong you can just ride around the problem, still can't believe it. It's nice to have something to put miles on and it's easy to do valve adjustments....the honda cb500 looks difficult....
100% correct :thumb: