Here are two vids on you tube, one says it does not harm, and provides a good visual aid with a gearbox and it does make sense.
Then there's a second guy who professes to have some expertise who just uses a magic marker and some emotional language. He claims the torque shock will damage your gears. What I do know is that it's pretty easy to upshift and if done right there does not feel like there's any torque shock at all.
Bottom line is these two guys are saying the complete opposite, the second one is not qualifying his statement with 'if done right' or 'if not done right' he is out and out saying it will have sexual relations with your gearbox.
But the first guy is putting up a pretty good case.
So what's the verdict. Assuming that it is done 'right'. I'm not confident myself to try downshifting without the clutch. Nevertheless I prefer to blip the clutch anyway.
https://youtu.be/_FGW2azxi34
https://youtu.be/p09goXGd9Ro
meh I do it all the time.. no damages known?
here's my two cent on the "Torque whatever BS he's spewing" the engine only has X amount of torque/horse power ALL the parts in the engine is suppose to take X amount of torque and horse power, plus some for "durability" reasons. so you cannot apply MORE torque to something like the gears. makes no sense... where does all this extra "torque" come from? lmao
it's like the stupid back pressure thing...
Loud pipes save lives thing...
and all the other internet myths that float around... just a myth. Engine braking probably does more "damage" to your bike then up shifting without the clutch, the clutch is just there to make it smooth when you're at odd ball RPM's, but if you're shifting at the optimal RPM's and its smooth anyway... the clutch isn't really needed, and nothings getting damaged.
First chap's not talking about the torque that the engine produces he's referring to the point at which the torque is actually transferring the engine torque to the back wheel via the cogs and dogs. However the "f.uck your engine guy is saying that never the less in spite of that when it does finally engage that damage will be done when the dog catches up. Which also may be true. However it seems to me that IF it's done right with good timing and matching engine speed that it would just impart normal engine stress that is not more than what you'd get by being in gear already and cranking the throttle wide open.
The f.uck your engine guy is saying absolutely unequivocally that you'll damage your engine. End of. That's my take on it anyway.
I do tend to agree with you that whatever sudden torque is applied when the dogs catch up can't really be applying a damaging load, that just doesn't make sense.
If you want to shift "quick shifter style" without using one, I'll say you'll likely damage the gearbox (just stomp on the shifter while holding the throttle wide open).
If you understand how to use the throttle when you shift, you probably won't be doing much harm unless you are in the wrong RPM range and have a jerky shift, but being that the clutch acts as a means to reduce or remove the power present on the gears during the shift it will always be the safest and "best" way to make your shift.
But my 2 cents is this:
A trained hand working the clutch can be incredibly fast, especially if you know your clutch well and don't fully disengage.
For street riding making your shifts 1/10 of a second faster isn't worth the doubt.
The clutch will always compensate for poor timing.
So... Just clutch it every time...
did it for YEARS and almost 220k miles without one on my nissan. removing had (or foot) from throttle then making shift. never had an issue. did use clutch from a stop MOST of the time.
Aaron
Part of me hopes that my speed-shifting will damage the clutch. Then I'l have a good reason to tear that open and learn more about my bike. Seriously, I realized this year that when my bike is running perfect, I feel bored.
Clutch-less upshifts easy squeazy, clutch-less downshifts....never cared for them or saw the need :dunno_black:
Back in the old days of flat track and road racing, there was a kill button on the left side of the handlebars. A lot of riders were able to hold the throttle wide open and up shift by tapping the kill button and the shift lever at just the right moment. Sometimes the spectators were treated to a good backfire. However, down shifting is totally different. Everyone I knew used the clutch.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on September 13, 2017, 04:38:17 PM
Clutch-less upshifts easy squeazy, clutch-less downshifts....never cared for them or saw the need :dunno_black:
years ago when i took cdl training i had learned speedshifting. downs were a tad more difficult ( learned on an eaton fuller 10spd accellerate lift shift accelerate. just matching rpms . downs basically same thing . lift, blip throttle and it will fall right in. could even do this from a stop on a hill. coast and it will go right in. most of the 200k+ miles on truck were clutchless. anyhoo back on topic yeah i agree downs you really gain nothing. ups otoh can save a few milliseconds. and wont harm shifter dogs IF done right. bike or car will tell you when its ready. kinda like when you accelerate,. and you approach the point where youre just making noise.
youll damage the dogs or gears if you either have to force it or it grinds. if it fqalls right in.. no damage.
Aaron
a friend from church has a ferrari 355 spyder. he will speedshift this car sometimes. it mechanically is perfect. anyhoo no matter what vehicle it is, with a manual trans this can be done without damage. (imho if as i said if done right.)
Quote from: Darkstar on September 13, 2017, 03:01:56 PM
Part of me hopes that my speed-shifting will damage the clutch. Then I'l have a good reason to tear that open and learn more about my bike. Seriously, I realized this year that when my bike is running perfect, I feel bored.
wanna trade, I got a lemon. :) we can just trade engines... i'll even slap all my pieces back together and not tell you whats wrong! :icon_mrgreen:
I would also like to point out, I don't clutchless down shift either.
normally I'm done with my beer and text message by then and I can use that hand for the clutch again. of course until I gotta get another beer and send another text.
joking out of the way, my friends always know how to find what motorcycle on the highway is me.. I tend to ride down the highway with my left hand off the bars, and my left foot on top of my gas tank [I'm flexible, ok?] one time they saw someone else do this, and was like "I saw you yesterday!" I was like "tf I was home all day??" "Nah man stop lying I saw you go down the highway, you passed right by me with your leg up and hand off.." I laughed knowing that wasn't me at all and that at least im not the only one who does it.
inb4 safety concerns
A trained hand working the clutch can be incredibly fast, especially if you know your clutch well and don't fully disengage.
Yeah that's my preferred method just a little squeeze hardly anything. Nevertheless I felt that I had to attempt a clutchless downshift today just to tackle the fear. I concentrated hard to try and be aware of that tiny moment when the torque backs off the dog. It was amazing, it shifted down so smooth. It's not something I'd want to do all the time it's too intense but it was fun.
Clutchless shifting wont damage your gearbox if you do it right. Clutchless upshifts are nice when you're trying to accelerate hard while also being smooth. But, they aren't really a necessary part of street riding. Downshifts are harder and even less necessary.
I've never felt the need to shift without clutching. I've messed around with it in various cars that I've driven, but have never even bothered on my GS. It's so quick to just squeeze that clutch lever and upshift, that the thought of "speed shifting" has hardly crossed my mind.
That being said, if done correctly, I really don't see how it could damage the gears or the engine. As has been said, those parts are built to withstand the torque that the bike is capable of putting out.
But what on earth is the point? (Unless you're racing).
Quote from: Joolstacho on September 20, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
But what on earth is the point? (Unless you're racing).
this is true. Gains are minimal
Could one argue that it is easier on the clutch? Some of the old bikes had clutches that would use any excuse to start slipping.
Quote from: ajensen on September 20, 2017, 05:17:27 PM
Could one argue that it is easier on the clutch? Some of the old bikes had clutches that would use any excuse to start slipping.
No not even, wet clutches unless abuse can outlive the engine :thumb:
the only thing I've had to repair on a wetclutch system where the friction disc themselves. and with the GS500, that's actually one of the easiest things to do, just do it when you change the oil! EZ PZ. or ride 100 miles without oil. :D
Quote from: Joolstacho on September 20, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
But what on earth is the point? (Unless you're racing).
You could argue that this is only
really relevant while racing, but clutchless upshifts are, on average, faster than a clutched shift. The quicker you can complete your shift, the quicker you can return to accelerating. On bikes, that's basically the only real benefit. In a car, an argument can be made that it reduces clutch wear, but that's basically moot with a bike's wet clutch.
Quote from: qcbaker on September 22, 2017, 05:50:13 AM
Quote from: Joolstacho on September 20, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
But what on earth is the point? (Unless you're racing).
You could argue that this is only really relevant while racing, but clutchless upshifts are, on average, faster than a clutched shift. The quicker you can complete your shift, the quicker you can return to accelerating. On bikes, that's basically the only real benefit. In a car, an argument can be made that it reduces clutch wear, but that's basically moot with a bike's wet clutch.
Riding with only your throttle hand on the handlebars of course is another very valid reason to clutchless upshift.
So I presume the other hand is pullin' your puddin'
:wink:
^ that or fixing something on the bike.... :laugh:
Quote from: Joolstacho on September 20, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
...But what on earth is the point? ...
The point is the challenge especially downshifts, it's an amazing feeling when it down shifts as smoothly as an upshift, but I don't do it in first or second gear.
Quote from: Joolstacho on September 20, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
But what on earth is the point? (Unless you're racing).
It's fun, it's cool, it's a neat trick, it feels great when you hit it perfectly. What's not to love?