Nearly a year ago I discovered a charging problem with my GS... turns out it was the connector between the regulator/rectifier and the battery was melted down, so I eliminated that connector. All was well.
In the past week I found the battery to be low and in fact yesterday I went out to start it and there wasn't enough juice to start it.
It also happens that for the past year, at least one out of every three or four rides was 30+ minutes, but for the past couple of weeks I've been lucky to get out for more than a 5 minute ride. And more often than not I've been just moving the bike from the street to the garage.
How long of a ride should it take for a GS500 to recharge the battery after starting? Or in other words, can I explain my no-start problem because I had accumulated too many too-short rides in a row, none enough to recharge the battery from starting? Or do I need to dig in test more before I go on my weekend trip 2+ hours from home?
EDIT: I just also realized that most of my short trips have been low-revs affairs. It's not uncommon for me to cruise through the neighborhood to the grocery store and never get above 5K rpm, most of the time spent at 3-4K. So my guess is I just never rode enough to get the battery to recharge from the starter drain and eventually it was too low.
Good post mr72... I've often wondered this myself because I too make a lot of short trips on my GS. Always figured the answers were buried on the forum somewhere but I never was able to search well enough to dig up the info.
Looking forward to any replies!
what kind of battery? unsealed lead acids. I've strayed away from forever. NEVER again.
Granted the re-charge thing COULD be true.
Depends how you're riding it. My bike takes me to work and back every day, which only takes me about 15 minutes. Charging voltage increases significantly the higher your revs are, so after the first few minutes of riding to let the oil heat up, I try to keep the revs between 5000 and 8000. So far, I've not had any problems with the battery.
However, I don't think it actually takes too much to charge it. When I came back from holiday, my bike had been sitting out in the cold (< 15 Celsius) for 5 days. With the alarm on as well, that must have drained the battery a little. It also took a few attempts to start it, presumably thanks to a cold battery and oil, which definitely took some power out of it. I then had no gloves and it was midnight, so I had to turn on the heated grips, sapping yet more power from the battery.
At the McD's drive-thru that same night starting the bike up warm, the starter was weak and it took a couple of tries. I figured the battery was still pretty low, so I rode the 2 miles home with the heated grips off. Since then, the bike has started perfectly every time, including on the cold, wet mornings today and yesterday. That, to me, suggests that that little 2 mile ride back home was a net gain for the battery's charge level.
Also, during weeks where I have done nothing but my commute to work and the shops (another 15 minute journey), I've not had any signs of weak starting in the cold mornings that would indicate the battery was draining overall.
I'm kind of curious to learn about this as well. I'm no longer a fan of lead acid's myself. When I was competing in car audio comps, I grew used to using AGM batteries for everything. Namely XS Power batts. That, and tires, are the next things I'm buying for my bike (only had a few weeks now). With me learning how mine works and all of the troubleshooting, I've left my bike on a trickle charger every night and when I work on it and try to start it (say carbs off so priming, etc) I may get a good solid 10-15 attempts before my battery is low again.
I've had AGM batts in my car, during competitions where voltage drops can be below 10v at times, that bounce right back up and never skip a beat. Same thing with my boat that I leave docked. If I'm not out for a month, batts are low (like 10.5-11v) from bilge pump, etc. But once charged, act like they're brand new again.
Long story short, if you don't have an AGM batt, personally, I definitely recommend going that way.
I have AGM and most mc batteries are AGM these days.
ayyye just got my new AGM battery for my GS!
hopefully since we don't got cold weather, it'll last 4 years?! I can hope at least... ive run vented lead acid liquid battery's until now because it's what they always had locally, but since my bike was waiting an I had to order things anyway. just ordered a battery online.
Agm batteries in my cars have lasted 10 years. I'd guess in a gs they last at least half that.
Well, I guessed that the charging issue was just due to short trips and rolled the dice. Got lucky that I didn't have to jump or push start the bike at all on my trip but it was a very close call. The bike would *barely* start about 80% of the time I tried to start it. One fuel stop on the way home we were really gearing up to push it.
I did run over to Autozone on the way home while still in Fredericksburg and they tested the battery, confirmed it's bad. They said it was fully charged (read 13.1V) but couldn't deliver enough current. I would have bought a new one then and there if they had one in stock, but they didn't. It very much almost didn't start there in the parking lot of Autozone but once it did we kind of put our heads down and tried to get home with minimal stopping. Kind of a drag since my dad and I are used to stopping every so often to take a look at some views or stop in some store in an ancient hill country town, etc.
Anyway, I took this opportunity to order a LiFePO4 battery. With any luck I can rewire and cram the R/R and ignition module both into the battery tray along with the new smaller battery, then I can see about getting rid of the side/tail plastics. Bonus all around. I did find a LiFePO4 battery that looks to fit for $70 on Amazon, which is about the price of a typical AGM from an auto parts store. If someone local had an AGM in stock I would have bought it instead.
BTW brick & mortar sellers, this is why Amazon is ruining you. The big advantage to brick and mortar stores is not just customer service but having things in stock. Autozone would have gotten my money for a lesser product if they had the battery I needed in stock. But instead they offered free customer service and got nothing in return. Likewise I would have bought from my around-the-corner Advance if they had it in stock. But NONE had my battery in stock, including three Autozones, two Advances, two O'Reillys and two Walmarts! Seriously, people! This is the dying gasp of the traditional store. Amazon can get me stuff here TODAY to my door and walking into a store you expect me to order something and get it here in 2-3 days when I have to come back in and get it? And pay more for the privilege? I don't think so. Anyway, rant over.
My previous comment about AGM should last years is probably wrong for motorcycle batteries, who knows. This one on my GS500 is less than two years old and it's already history. I have read all over the internet and it seems others feel quite lucky to get 4 years out of an AGM battery on a motorcycle, contrary to my experience of 10 years in cars. I have to believe there's something bad wrong with motorcycle charging systems if they eat batteries like this. But still when my Jeep needs a new battery, especially considering it will have a winch, I will be replacing with a LiFePO4. 4x the capacity in the same size battery? I think, yes.
I've never tested the GS's charging system... could be it just sucks. either too much juice, RR dumbs down the juice, causing not enough juice. it has always been my experience with motorcycle battery's lasting 2 years. so even if my new gel doesn't last past 2, ain't a big loss for me as its on par with everything else. they are like 1/4 of the size of most car battery's too, so that has some effect.
if I could get a digital battery voltmeter that also serves as a clock, would be awesome...
The GS500 charging system does indeed suck, well at least compared with a car charging system. What I have found empirically is that it sufficiently charges the battery in terms of charge rate (current) and float voltage for a lead-acid type battery (or a LiFePO4) but only consistently when it is revved above about 4K rpm. I suspect this varies bike to bike depending on magnetic gaps, heat, aging, variable turns of wire, and other things in the alternator.
The real weakness though is in the connectors and the wiring from the alternator to the R/R and then to the battery. The connector between the alternator and the R/R is a super weak link and literally redundant. You can snip it off and crimp on bullet connectors and directly connect the R/R to the alternator and life will be much better. But realistically this all needs to be 10ga wire and screw terminals/lugs all the way from the alternator to the R/R and then from the R/R to the batt. The 14-16ga wire they have in there is woefully insufficient to carry the amount of current required to charge a really dead battery without severely overheating, either heating enough to raise the resistance enough to knock the charging voltage down too low (bad) or getting so hot to melt the connectors (disaster).
I suppose it all works just fine with a newish battery, no corrosion, and if you keep the battery on a battery tender while not in use so it is always full up. But once the battery gets old or if you have other running issues and wind up having to crank the bike a lot and drain the battery then problems are going to start to show up.
IDK maybe I'll go nuts when I get the new battery and run all new 10ga wiring. I need to move the r/r anyway and see about tidying up the wiring. Perhaps it'll be a good time to deal with all of it. There's a ton of redundant wiring on my GS that I could rip out since I no longer have a clutch switch or a side stand switch. I could really simplify the wiring a lot. Maybe I should just make an entirely new harness.
I'd be really interested in seeing how to make a simplified electrical system.
I'd hardly call it a simplified electrical system that I would consider, just a wiring harness with less wires.
Many of us remove things like the side stand relay and clutch lever switch. There is a fair amount of wiring involved there that we just typically leave in place. We could just rewire and eliminate the wires altogether.
And I do think 10ga wire would be a huge improvement. According to the tables, 10ga wire is rated for 55A, which is probably close to what the GS500 starter draws. 8ga would be much better with 75A by the tables, that's a good margin. You'd have to upgrade the ground wires too.
The big problem with making a "new" wiring harness is replacing all of the OEM connectors to hook up to things like handlebar controls etc. Probably easier to just remove a lot of wiring from the current harness and keep the rest in place.
Could be a winter time project for me. We'll see if I get any time. I'll be lucky to just replace the battery and get a ride in this week before leaving Friday on vacation.
Well I got a new battery. It's a tiny little thing (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DX894B2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that should offer more than enough space for me to move the R/R, igniter and all relays and wires into the battery tray along with the tiny battery.
Here's a picture for comparison, stock battery on the left.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3nFsQu0Ec7662m8ABdxTVrm7N8DkulvWPd0hfKv0CUpfDpuGa9AYeCMOMqAdxbSw_-igO0dxrdmPXXcNKHNY9XvzwjIHjLLJ8WpR2ZX11Q8-jYWm-U7petzF2E8rDA3ulub_e-cOXusKDuZvzaRFWZ1Pbm1bRQE-2oGWxszIP2UQEHy_PuKWUnNz9Ni5b9PJwDEuzot83_1D_KU06cDWolKfwysQLtHrfNtEYrY_TTfbl52MUcEvp01AEGwtCv-9gU4VxHGW27mTItqU8WKK-FRb0XnrFt0BYwo3kE5QalN8UgbaEG_NhZved6P477sRw-ICfDNkS00Ny3Rsa2jp2pxftZdA2xBZHSAqvyoQ1AcG5rKRKQSsIbIhePsX8nE393vBBOj4ApxWnlCVboa2FXc0y6mzF7cExioy6QDciFjOVLqd1RmZwkNU9zywm3Lk_q32kHZXqJido8D14tJINZRsNChxGRu4kBdRZTIbsQkH42XpDba7JapnnPsLaFA2-RPkpZsMSDgi-sxSWbjI--llZMVpsKBKJzMIPQwhrrV5O7XxH0opOHJJWGGEXaoNnLLHpX23v8Y27jQJby7i3SYASYsAKbLZUyZEjgcsLQ=w3082-h1737-no)
I think I'll mount the relays and other parts to a piece of aluminum and bolt it in, plus form a little battery tray especially for this battery. It'll be a nice project for a winter weekend when I can't ride.
BTW this battery is only 2ah whereas the original was 10ah. If the starter draws 50A continuously then I can run about 144 seconds on the starter on a fully charged battery. My math days the stock battery is overkill except maybe sized for CCA on very cold starts. I paid $70 for this one. For about $115 you can get a 10ah LiFePO4 battery that is a more direct replacement for the original. I kind of figured since I never ride when it's truly cold, LiFePO4 charges way faster and all of my lights are LED I probably can get away with the much smaller battery. I don't recommend anyone else take the same risk. I carry a lithium ion jump pack and will until I can fully establish the capability of the little battery to repeatedly start the bike, but I don't expect any problems.
Side note, I do think my charging system is underperforming, since it doesn't float beyond about 13.8v at the battery terminals. So I'll do the 10ga rewire when I do the rest of the wiring cleanup. I'll post up about that project since I think several people may be interested. Probably put it in my blog. Stay tuned.
After riding the bike to work and on errands yesterday, this morning it wouldn't start.
Sounds to me like the Autozone guy was wrong, maybe my battery wasn't the problem (and I spent $70 on a battery I didn't need) and the charging system is the problem.
So now it's back to the drawing board.
I will do the relocate/rewire stuff this weekend to get the r/r and igniter out of the way so I can run without side panels using the space afforded by the smaller battery, and hopefully in the process find/fix whatever's wrong with the charging system.
Hopefully I won't have to replace the r/r.
Finishing off my own thread. I cleaned up the wiring, put the igniter in the battery box and hid all.of the relays and wires under the seat. Some contact cleaner fixed my charging problem, now 14.2v at idle. The connectors were almost all corroded not to mention the negative battery terminal. Easy to fix. Now I just need something to cover the starter relay. Maybe a goofy flat tracker number plate.
Pics? :kiss3:
Haha. Maybe tomorrow. Out of town today and pictures are such a pain on this forum.
Here's a picture of the disaster that was the wiring before I started this quest.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Uk23DQy1q8SSSYuoog-Soe7ZrrKME41J9oZkSjh5Y-6rxnn7Tte0qESh9eSA-tR4SSmEoPaD4NyEauP2ZWhdDBOa8HcxLbdFWKJJ-wxr4TXFFkLnnJTxrpawmgtVzzb4Ce7jfsLHxmodF1B8suCWBf1nqMRqMbPN1BqaZzZdgKKpqysAb7SzrCzMUTm0pqnhZUDB0-RDVeVSj6C8QqhbWe-2tgjhIU8vajmuMgNypGOmf-mn6XAGXwJHVNPDroPMjS-JwicF-zVcWnwSrcB0hE7Oem5Rdx_nA-QurXKkJbqXPb0pqfoEqweq5_4xjtI2KgJy3L-i5AwbNcPH6nT7_r5-vPZcejPzNpUZVTRV2S_nN_fU3ZDccQibxY_bTEHh2Pno3nuoVS3y7xUp_QwbiQkXK-FqVlNueg3s_t9MzGzK4310a-gb3jJKBRtnjIXwVqPvLngXlEsyf3DNacvmfVaGyM98AYjfRXORm7Hn6fBd_NJ9DdzURs19yD3LQcNnKHPLKEjRZ_qmA86AWfRAu9izNXksVFw6wujlezJQebcgPR4NrtCn7Ey7RVCdbu2lWRStrnAUuVskAX4IEAL6Rr1-ZsFbNKyJ-2tSdN0FKrd4wlG_4-UKjRzY5ycIdfAdPeKaMeEgnovR-kkZaVausLNC1EsFxIBpKao=w2542-h1908-no)
Here's the same side of the bike with cleaned up wiring:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UKIN1vnNvYRdiqMAnDYuQxOraNIcUCq212E3piSnQGQymofAeHIboI6z50fCFFUdtCjODWtkvKNPzLbpmzfSU7EucQncyLL89T51xcYY3ThUu2nlvrni0P6vEQRohNkrw1iL7QvHBeOIQvmJSauXMjxD96SaEAoqMFZCjxLOt0_xs1k0GA_qUz-5MWhfhELMkWB12BrosbVBhkLI_1lB65bh0REHMcDO4kKil0ZJDF6jdJaMmR4YnU9Gn-8WqeFtHV4rpgEGm3cqgzhC7YLAN4JSW6XKJHKsVWJwbiddZ2kEoNAnqwOCdcupfP_T-8b8ojzhRlD9wH-OeHqOvTviw0h5Nkanjf1B5kYXIYJUA-sQ_z1EJNB8zSYqcdC8GMpihDpIWpqtgMUNkegAmC_l8GQW6PjlKaYkuE9_TLE0iEIh7VSp7iLy0Llv1wdTfU-UPc24LmV8nGVn7ZZ_bmSjmA4pjhcvr2fpcprKeY4daBHNy-d9xTUy2e-noX9ZI3_QaeOvZODg3vpyjhiGe-m0kneVlePtDnSTU2RGHtIIF_LF9OQm71JIKgE7o6JrNCiWdeB86mhWKfPOqliQ9rI8t2-aZlkB32iDeiZp-u4ors0uupMg0SsLlQPjMDwU1_EAOvYopklhz2lCdFrMf4TNgo3l1pyvgl7CbAU=w2542-h1908-no)
And here's a look into the battery tray which now has the igniter in there sharing space with the battery and the turn signal relay:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/troEtlY9BTOGCyzaZo3dxHkAW4yAPDOEQtHF0ZyBvi6mB7iarza5IGiQHMn2fwGpVyKztFCtipaL4HIO1lO5qXordQzSaS-DUI1IIsRwDA-Z6Z9FeD5CcIgdgC8Wt_19nlLxLjLHNUlteSTut11jq7aJ0hueWM7pGNPsJHXTLJ4LzsBqTEXsPMUGYqdUhRyKOCCzbdvL_ghpga2pVgTYNuWrnJed0cAu7uKYGvLQ1dQikU3hgSYcyHgp6bY1NoHCG1845h3d6fhQNx1E1rXFoPD0xBLeoYsLdZopWbA5Nys39cy9AITvThH7kRYQt3WVdeD6G8Dt87CK0oFOXLDI4wDjobs1juEZiAMvnvMNMDz4QciDsT2jDs6wqR4vxpn5uk3xxTNu0STQAnhRqDIdkdzyYKUUJnzUAdnbklvKxp_Kwlfu8owzl9xzNtkoBV53XXqhWHOiWBUWo4YHMbZxxH9uMeOjyg0Zb74KHPgPzVr8zHcnYhEDsFWjJkJDunMNV94y6-x5csnxNEGMaCz_oS4t5ULDHJZ2aXS3LCXMvgfIuEiRdPSUIxTnKzNUjrhI_M2zOe3bd59-TKbH5TKagbKk9Uvok2FYgnZODnTdKZ0gu4r_PHXcUFtu7zNxw99DtdCh9ZivN_fayvJkRkX6-6grRR5nwhUH8fY=w1430-h1906-no)
I kept trying to like the look of the bike with no side covers on it and just couldn't make it work in my mind. It just looks unfinished, literally like there are pieces missing. I thought about crafting something to just cover the back portion of the triangle area which would cover up the starter relay and maybe the reg/rect but again everything I imagined still left gaps that looked very unfinished. I'm not into the "rat bike" look. I like the "complete bike" look, and the side panels went back on.
Now I'm having bizarre charging behavior. I almost rode to work today but decided not to because of charging issues.
Like I said now that all the terminals are properly cleaned and maintained, the charging voltage is 14.2V at idle and up to 14.4 at higher revs. That's perfect! However, the other day I rode to work and then had to make a short trip from my office to another office just like 6 miles away. The bike wouldn't start reliably to get me home from the second stop. It's like the 6-mile trip was not enough to recharge the battery after starting it at the beginning of that trip. Eventually the bike DID start but then the dang thing died before I could get underway (weird choke-no-choke behavior of a bike that's been sitting only a couple of hours) and wouldn't start again. Just "click" when you push the button. I jumped it.
When I got home that day after a 30 minute ride all was fine again. I parked on the street as usual then had to start the bike again and move it into the garage where I parked it early in the week. I went out this morning to see about the battery before attempting to ride to work, and it measured a whopping 13.72V. According to my math, the maximum voltage of this pack should be an amazing 14.6V although it will never reach that with the GS's charger which peaks at 14.4V. So even though the voltage was high in my mind for a 12V battery (actually, this one is truly a 12.8V battery), it was nowhere near full. OTOH the charts say at 14.0V it is "95%" charged.
For that reason I decided to put it on the plug-in charger in "slow" charge mode. I've never measured the output of this charger, I guess I should. I plugged it in and in literally 10 minutes or less it shut off and proclaimed the battery "full". My guess is that since it's a lead-acid charger, it thinks it's full when it hits 13.8V. It may never get to really "full" on a plug-in charger, or even likely to 95%.
So this may be the tale of the never-charged battery. I think I need to get a battery tender that's made for LiFePO4 batteries specifically that will charge it to 14.6V so the bike has the chance to run on a fully charged battery and just maintain. In the long run what I really need is a R/R that will run at 14.6V or at least be absolutely sure mine is putting out 14.4V which should be enough to get it to 95% routinely.
Sorry if you've covered this off already, but I'd do some basic checks...
Is your stator putting out the right voltage? I'm not sure on the 500 specs but my 450 needs to be minimum 75 VAC across all three legs at something like 5K RPM. Measure this with it completely disconnected from the harness. Your reg/rec can only put out enough voltage if it gets enough in from the stator.
Are your ground connections all solid, clean, and reliable?
With LiFePO4 batteries, I've been told two things to keep an eye on. I don't have one myself yet but will be putting one in the Kat, so this stuff is in my mind ready for that.
In cool/cold weather, you may need to turn the headlight on for a short time to "wake them up" before they will crank properly (I know it seems weird but apparently true).
Also, they should be balanced charged monthly to ensure the cells internally are kept even. With an older charging system like ours with no concept of this, it's possible for one cell to receive more/less charge than another which will affect overall charge and shorten the life of the battery.
thanks for that, Pete. Yeah the stator and the reg/rect are both putting out the right voltage. It just turns out the LiFePO4 can handle more charge voltage and get a little higher charge compared with what the GS puts out by spec.
No big deal. Just need to deal with the care and feeding of the LiFePO4.
Doubt I'll ever have to use it when it's cold enough to affect it, but I did also know about the "turn on the light for a minute first' thing. Thanks for the reminder.
Good stuff, figured it's better to repeat something you already know rather than miss something that could be helpful.
Quote from: peteGS on November 18, 2017, 01:13:12 PM
Good stuff, figured it's better to repeat something you already know rather than miss something that could be helpful.
I couldn't agree more.
And FWIW your input was quite timely.
I am learning about some of the idiosyncrasies of this LiFePO4 battery. This particular battery is like 10% of the size and weight of the original lead-acid battery, and the capacity is also much less. Not 1/10 but more like 1/4. I think this is relevant because there seems to be a threshold for how much it gets "cold" and how much you have to "warm it up" as it relates to the battery's capacity and the current requirement of the starter.
I think if you get an 8ah LiFePO4 (same capacity as the stock battery) then it probably only takes a few seconds of running the lights before the starter will turn over, and only when it's REAL COLD will it require you to run the lights for like a minute or two to "wake up" the battery. However, with a 2ah or so battery like this one, combined with LED lights which draw much less current, then even when it's 60F it seems I have to turn on the key/lights for like 15-20 seconds before it will turn the starter. If it's 40F I might have to run the lights for a minute or more. My guess is I'd have to run the lights for like 5 minutes before it'd start if it was 30F.
The reason this is interesting and worth note is because it sounds and feels like a charging problem. You get on the bike and ride, say, from your house to the gas station. Turn off the bike and pump gas, then you probably already have your helmet and gloves on so you proceed to turn the key to on and immediately try to start, it will just click. You go "what the heck?", fool with it, do the normal "is this going to work?" kind of stuff all while the lights are on and then after like 20-30 seconds it magically starts right up. If you didn't keep the lights on for that 30 seconds and try again, you'd likely think (as I did) that the battery didn't charge from the start from your house to the gas station.
TL;DR: You have to have a startup routine with these small LiFePO4 batteries wherein you deliberately wake up the battery
every time no matter how cold it is outside or how long since the bike was shut off. At 70F ambient temperatures, it still requires this wake-up routine. Otherwise it may behave like it has a charging problem when it is actually charging correctly.
Good to know! Being told about that and experiencing it are two different things. It really doesn't get that cold here (lucky if it gets to single digit celcius in the middle of winter) so I suspect I won't have quite the same issues but the instinct would definitely be oh no something is wrong!