so after finally getting around to pulling the oil pan on my GS I'm met with FLAKES [3-5mm sized ones] of coppery/brass colored goodness. on a bike with 22k miles on it. I think the moral of the story here is. I'm never buying another GS again. Not even if someone paid me to take theirs.
Well guess it's time to split the transmission halves and see the damage.. stay tuned.
How many GSs have you had? Or has only this one given you all the grief?
Made on a Friday? :dunno_black:
Quote from: Watcher on October 24, 2017, 08:33:55 PM
How many GSs have you had? Or has only this one given you all the grief?
Made on a Friday? :dunno_black:
had 2 [this 2005 and a 1999], worked on total of 8 more in my garage. In my lifetime so far, each one has had its very own VERY annoying simple issues. I don't think there has been a single bit of these engines I haven't had to DIVE into.
I'm just praying now what ever bearing it was, didn't decide to take other stuff with it... cause if its gonna be more then another 200 dollars, I'm gonna take a hammer and grinder to this damn thing and smash/chop it up into pieces and set it outside by the road in boxes for the garbage man to collect.
How much did you find in there? I wouldn't be splitting the case if it is just a few flakes. Most likely swarf from running in.
Maybe check again at the next oil change.
Quote from: Sandgroper57 on October 25, 2017, 06:25:57 AM
How much did you find in there? I wouldn't be splitting the case if it is just a few flakes. Most likely swarf from running in.
Maybe check again at the next oil change.
errm I had already scraped about half of it out onto a towel with my finger before I decided to snap a picture. pretty sure there's a dead bearing in there...
(https://s1.postimg.org/5jsg8d3fan/IMAG0547.jpg)
Any rattlely clunks when the engine is running? Can you check your oil pressure? If a plain bearing goes bad, the oil pressure will drop drastically.
I can't tell from pic but flakes wouldn't stop me from continuing on. I'd ride it till it
(https://media.giphy.com/media/EQnSR0DaGzeEg/giphy.gif)
then i'd figure out what to fix,...
LOL! but it already crapped out on me, it stopped and locked up, and I got it free'd up by turning it by hand back and forth. Had it tow'd home, hasn't ran since. not that I care about it being taken down to the transmission. it's just annoying
Ramblings of an old man: BSA twins had a bronze bushing that fed the oil to the crankshaft and from there, of course, to the connecting rods. When that bushing would go, there would be bits of bronze in the sump. We called it gold dust not only because of the color but because someone was going to have to spend a lot of gold to get it fixed. The rod bearings would be done for, and, usually, the crank had to be reground. Japanese motorcycle engines are ever so much better than the old British ones. The only problem is that quite often it is much cheaper to get a used engine than to rebuild the old one. As far as I know, there is no helping an out-of-spec. GS crankshaft.
Are you sure the material isn't bits of epoxy and starter clutch bolts? Didn't you just have a problem with your generator/starter clutch? My sump looked worse than that after goats/sheared starter clutch bolts and all it needed was a sump cleaning and an oil change. Here was my saga:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=68907.0
Quote from: Bluesmudge on October 26, 2017, 08:54:44 AM
Are you sure the material isn't bits of epoxy and starter clutch bolts? Didn't you just have a problem with your generator/starter clutch? My sump looked worse than that after goats/sheared starter clutch bolts and all it needed was a sump cleaning and an oil change. Here was my saga:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=68907.0
it had parts from the generator rotor in there yes, but they where bigger chunks, however. the small flakes are metal for sure, they fold and bend and are visibly shiny
There's 3 layers to a bearing, the babbit, the copper, the steel. I think once your past small "White" non magnetic flakes, and down to the copper there's probably something seriously wrong, or about to be seriously wrong. The balancer bearings are pretty easy to check ill probably do that today after I'm done building my engine hoist. the old grunt it out method i've used in the past isn't gonna work with these new stylish stitches in my foot.
but by taking out the engine and inspecting it, I could get lucky and the bearing is just dying and nothing is marred, or I could have a bunch of chewed up s--t. I rebuilt the top end on the 05 at I think it was 16k miles. after having a burnt valve because PO was a Fk tard who clearly ran it hard and lean, then again at I think it was 17k after the chain tensioner gave up the ghost and caused the cam chain to skip, forcing the piston to run into the I believe it was intake valves, bending them.
but the first rebuild I scraped a bunch of what looked like gunk and sand from the oil pan, didn't even think at the time to check if they were GOATs/Metal flakes. I've rebuilt motors here in Florida and often times sand gets into them - mostly from leaky gaskets. sand is the hell material, its amazing in places it gets, anyone who's been to a sandy beach knows. :D
but now in retrospect it probably was metal flakes that had caked on oil, and I probably had a warning before now that I was just naive too recognize it at the time.
Sounds like you know what you are doing and aren't afraid to get your hands dirty. Best of luck!
Keep us posted! I am really curious.
yeah ill get pictures of it and everything once I have the engine out of the frame for sure. anyone who's pulled a GS motor out. know's it a huge PITA. there's like no easy way of doing it besides grunt, I'm really hoping this 3 day adventure building this temporary engine "holder" is gonna work.
and getting a GS motor back IN is even more difficult.. it's like you want both sides of the frame to come off, so you can mount them to the engine using the front mounting bolt, swing the engine into place, slide the other engine mount bolts into place, mount the frame and EZPZ. but nope.gif suzuki was like "LOL AMERICAN GONNA PLAY REVERSE ORIGAMI, WE UNFOLD PAPER TELL TO MAKE EXACT AGAIN!" :flipoff:
Origami--great analogy.
(https://s1.postimg.org/1h39vbj61r/IMAG0562.jpg)
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... this is the only thing keeping me from splitting to two halves apart. its dark now so I'm done for tonight.
Any ideas? I'm about ready to cut the metal thing off, [replacement $10.37, eck. plus $1.64 per screw [all 3]] my last ditch effort when I work on it again is gonna be the valve lapping compound trick. after that I'm all out of ideas.
besides this, ONLY MANAGE TO BREAK 1 BOLT! number 11 on the crankcase halves. was one of those 10mm bolts, sheared off on removal. I had taken out like 8 before it, so I know the ratchet was going the right way. broken off at the treads, probably has like 4-5cm of threaded bolt stuck in the block now, so that will be fun.
Are you using a hand impact driver? Also, I will sometimes use a steel drift the size of the screw head and smack it hard with a hammer. Also, I have used a small cold chisel to try to get the screw to turn. When in doubt, drill it out. Keep us up to date on your progress.
TWO HALVES APART, only took some cutting, a little bit of drilling, 3 firmly stuck engine bolts [YAY LATER!] but here it is... what we've all been waiting for, the MAIN COURSE!
As I was pulling the two transmission halves apart, I peaked inside before they came fully apart, seeing a lot of good bearings... I got concerned that I was wrong, that it wasn't a bearing and it was something else. but I pushed forward, RIPPED it off and started poking around, grabbed a flashlight [its currently 2am here, im super tired and really should not be working on the engine atm.] and never thought i'd be so happy to see a burnt piston rod! I WASN'T WRONG!
(https://s1.postimg.org/48wng5sttb/IMAG0563.jpg)
(https://s1.postimg.org/70ih2edaxb/IMAG0565.jpg)
(https://s1.postimg.org/7i8iqzfbnj/IMAG0572.jpg)
Now, the connecting rod and it's bits, LOOK fine to me, by a quick eyeball measurement. how ever the piston rod journal looks a little scored, one of them I can feel with the tip of my finger, hopefully someone here will chime in as to what to do about it, and or just "meh leave it" I know sledge is lurking...
(https://s1.postimg.org/9o7xcr6rov/IMAG0566.jpg)
(https://s1.postimg.org/3uq7pawj1r/IMAG0571.jpg)
The good side it's just a scuff cannot feel it with my finger
(https://s1.postimg.org/9654a0jgkv/IMAG0574.jpg)
The bad side, this is the side I can feel with my finger. and hopefully it's clear enough in the image to see the slight vally's
(https://s1.postimg.org/8hbupzvpun/IMAG0576.jpg)
Ouch--determine if the damage is to the steel on the crankshaft or if it is burned-on bearing material (wishful thinking). My guess is that good used crankshafts are hard to find, and a new one would cost a fortune. I hope some more knowledgeable folks chime in. Thanks for keeping us up to date on your adventure.
I removed all 3 of my stuck bolts today, and got the camshaft that was a little scuffed polished. I used a good flat file to knock down the high parts, stopping to reapply ink to check for high and low and neutral spots. then polished up the surface. I'm ordering two different bearing sizes, one that it's suppose to be. and then the next size up. just encase its out of spec from the polishing process. pic related, the "bad" side of the bearing in the previous picture.
(https://s1.postimg.org/7zv09fkflr/IMAG0579.jpg)
polished lobe, this is as good as its gonna get I believe, I'm gonna shoot for re-using it. because a new one is too expensive, not much better on the used market. and buying a new engine with just equally as questionable possible issues. + don't have the money right now to buy a new engine. At least with new bearings, and a proper break in period everything should fall into place just fine, the surface wasn't scored super badly, enough where I could feel the distortion in the metal with my finger though.
Dunno what scored the surface, my swiss file had a rough time [new sharp file btw] biting into the steel on the camshaft... I'm replacing all the bearings on the camshaft row. but none of the others as they look fine to me.
Be sure to measure the crank journal with a micrometer to make sure the journal is round. Also, I would find a good used connecting to put in place of the old one. Keep up the good work.
the old connecting rod looks fine, there was not scoring on it at all. didn't even look like it got damaged. ill see about measuring em.
Yes--make sure the rod is round and that the rod is not discolored from excessive heat. My knowledge is general and from old motorcycles, so maybe some of the other members of the forum can be more insightful. No matter what, I really appreciate skill and ambition.
taking the crankshaft to a machinist tomorrow to have it measured by him, and if at possible re-ground. Dunno how much can be done with a range of 0.024mm [to keep the journal in spec] assuming it was over sized to begin with!
I'm just really worried its too far gone.
Crankshaft is poo'd. my only hope is finding a thicker odd-ball sized bearing. it could be re-ground then. I need .5mm over sized from the stock sizes and the machinist said he could do it. so, gonna cut my losses.
WHO NEEDS GS PARTS?! :technical:
Quote from: J_Walker on November 10, 2017, 09:25:47 AM
Crankshaft is poo'd. my only hope is finding a thicker odd-ball sized bearing. it could be re-ground then. I need .5mm over sized from the stock sizes and the machinist said he could do it. so, gonna cut my losses.
WHO NEEDS GS PARTS?! :technical:
There was a place in Nascar country that was spraying a moly coating on bearings and that coating would take up oil and result in a lot lower wear and friction.
I never used them but you could look up and call HM Elliot powder coatings in Mooresville NC. A correct bearing with coating could take up the gap and keep oil film which is what that moly coating supposed to do anyway.
Cool.
Buddha.
meh, I've already dropped close to 700 dollars on this rebuild alone, not including all the new stuff I've bought into it. time to cut my losses. I said I wasn't gonna spend more then another 200 dollars to fix this lower end problem. GS isn't worth the money I've put into it. and I'm not gonna get what I put in back, I'll try to get something back however.
WHEN YOU BUY MAIN BEARINGS NOTE: each "bearing" you're only getting one half! [dumb I know, just found that out as almost two week old parts rolled in today.] so you need to order 12 main bearings, and 4 camshaft bearings. from bikebandit it would total up to $153.84.
SUZUKI WHY IS IT CHEAPER TO BUY USED MOTOR THEN TO REBUILD SIMPLE SH-T?! ESPECIALLY DISPOSABLE PARTS :flipoff: