I turned 21 on friday, and saturday my Utah Concealed Firearm permit arrived in the mail (took the class, sent in paperwork earlier in the month)
I'm now looking at the possible problems with carrying on a bike.
I know there are many of you who aren't in places where carrying is allowed, and probably many more who don't believe in it (or are violently opposed to it), but are there others on this board who carry while riding, and if so what motorcycle-related tips and tricks have you learned?
Specifically, I'm wondering if there are particular places to carry that work really well while on a motorcycle, if anyone has come up with a way to mount a small "gun safe" or anything to the bike for when you go places you can't carry, etc.
I've considered trying to get a hard bag for the back luggage rack of my bike, and put a lockbox in there that I could store it (disabled, disarmed, and locked, naturally) when I go into federal buildings, ball games, etc.
Am I the only one here who has thought about any of these things? Just wondering. :dunno:
Where do you plan on going with a motorcycle that you need a gun? Wrap it in cardboard and put it in you belt. Haha
if you have a ccw cary it on you. i dont cary but i have and love guns. down home i kept a shotgun in my truck 24/7. it was my right to have it. see ya.
I would recommend something like Uncle Mikes pancake (aka paddle) holster. Its worn inside your jeans/gear and its really not all that noticeable unless your doing something stupid like trying to carry a .44 mag. Look for something that has as many safeguards as possible to keep the gun in the holster though. A back strap with velcro and a snap is ideal. Whatever you choose, make sure you can wear it in the small of your back. Hip holsters get in the way and wouldn't be pretty if you go down. Forget ankle holsters also, they very much in the way.
Lets not kid ourselves here either. Wearing a gun while ridding a motorcycle is a VERY dangerous proposition. I am not going to try to talk anybody into or out of it, but be honest..... if/when you wreck, whats going to happen to the gun? Guns are not really designed to be subjected to that sort of abuse without malfunctioning. Think in terms of WHEN are you wreck and shoot your self, not are you going to.
I am waiting for an opening in the class and am going to get a CCW very soon. Will I carry on a motorcycle? I can't say I never would, but its something I would personally try to avoid.
Whether you carry on the bike or not, or off the bike for that matter, please go shoot the gun you are going to/considering carrying. At a minimum put a full box through it once a month. This may be preaching to the choir and I am sure they said as much during your class, but better safe than sorry.
Never carried on a bike. Check what your state laws are regarding how it is to be concealed. I have several holsters... a custom hiking fanny pack with a soft holster sewn inside; a Galco fanny pack; a Desantis pack that can be used as a belt clip or a shoulder pack; and a Galco holster that fit inside the pants clipped to your belt. My smallest (Beretta Tomcat) will fit in my pants pockets (front or back).
The easiest and probably the most comfortable on a bike (as well as the easiest drawn) would be a shoulder harness under a jacket. If you can not access it quickly, then there is no reason to have.
As for guns discharging during a crash...you have the wrong gun. All 3 of my Beretta's will only fire when the trigger is pulled.
I would worry about the dent it would make in your body, not discharging. "Ouch" comes to mind. Course "Ouch" comes to mind for crashing too.
Quote from: dgyverAs for guns discharging during a crash...you have the wrong gun. All 3 of my Beretta's will only fire when the trigger is pulled.
Guns can and will fire without your finger on the trigger. Safetys can be bumped, triggers can be jostled, etc. Even inside a leather or kydex holster a gun is going to undergo some rather extreme conditions between you and pavement at 60mph.
As your sig says, Expect the Unexpected.
no, dgyver is correct. contrary to popular myth, modern firearms cannot and will not simply "go off". Even under extrem conditions. However, as someone put it, the "dent in your body" would be a serious concern for me, and I don't think I would consider carring a gun on my person while riding. I would think that a tank bag would be a good place to carry, for safty and quick access.
Quote from: WrencherQuote from: dgyverAs for guns discharging during a crash...you have the wrong gun. All 3 of my Beretta's will only fire when the trigger is pulled.
Guns can and will fire without your finger on the trigger. Safetys can be bumped, triggers can be jostled, etc. Even inside a leather or kydex holster a gun is going to undergo some rather extreme conditions between you and pavement at 60mph.
As your sig says, Expect the Unexpected.
I'll raise my hand to that... I've seen a couple of well kept guns fire when dropped, trigger untouched. And there was a crappy .410 that almost took my head off cause I didn't unload it while I was trying to get myself untangled from some thorn bushes while hunting :P Very stupid thing I did... :oops:
Now, of course I could see transporting gun and magazine separated. Padded aluminum lock-box, and I think there are lockable mounting racks. Eh, I wish I could tell you where though.
I've carried several times with the bike. I packed in a side pocket on my tank bag. Only short trips, and I have always carried without a round chambered. It's easy enough to give the slide a whack and advance a round. In fact, it can be a good attention getter. I have a Glock32C, one of those guns that can "never" go off without squeezing the trigger :bs: . I don't trust it. Engineering fails regularly. I think Judd Nelson said it best back in the 80's... "Screws fall out all the time, the world's an imperfect place".
The few times I have packed on my bike, I have had a good reason to. Other than that, I don't carry because its not going to be easily accessible if it is secure... and the last thing I want is to wake up in the hospital and wonder where my Glock ended up. :nono:
It's good to see that you are thinking about this and taking the prospect of carrying a weapon seriously. Too many with permits don't think about the contingencies of carrying a weapon. Let us know what you decide to go with.
Prediciting mechanical failures is a bit off the topic and obviously opinions vary.
Carrying while on a motorcycle is a unique problem and does have its own set of responsibilities.
I would say if you got the permit just to have the option and you are carrying just for the sake of carrying then leave it at home while on the bike. You have to weigh your own need for the gun and the hassles involved and decide if its worth it.
I carry a little .25 cal in my pocket when I go to unsafe areas. Never had a problem.
As to why you feel the need to carry a gun I can not figure that one out but I guess that is just me????????
I am a gun owner and I have no problem with right to own one or many as I do but I still do not see the need to carry one unless you are doing so to go to a gun range or maybe as a side arm while hunting or camping where you are not on top of the food chain.
As for how safe a gun is it depends on the gun. If you are worried about it going off then if it is a semi-auto type then do not chamber a round while in transit. I personal view is to never transport a loaded weapon but again that is my view.
Again why do you feel the need to carry a firearm? It is not going to do you any good locked up in box in the parking lot and what happens if some steals your bike? Then maybe you will need a gun since you just gave another bad guy a gun and when you see your stolen motorcycle going down the road now you and the cops have to worry about the nice new gun that the guy riding your bike might have in his pocket?????????
I was thinking of mounting a .50 cal to the front of the GS but was worried about the excess weight on the already mushy forks. :cheers:
jake.
(just had to be a smartass...sorry)
Another reason to upgrade to Progressive Springs :lol: :lol: !
Wayne
I can definitely see the benefits of carrying a firearm while riding. Imagine you are out riding and your bike breaks down out in the middle of a highway. Its late, the bars just left out and a bunch of half-lit delinquents in a pickup truck see you parked by the side of the road. They decide they need ur bike more than you do and stop by to "help out".We like to imagine nothing is going to happen, but this isn't a perfect world.
A semi automatic pistol carried with no bullet in the chamber will absolutely never go off. if the bullets are in the magazine there is no firing pin or any sort of protrusion to impact the primer.
As far as comfort I'd have to go with a leather shoulder harness, and would never leave the gun on my bike.
Quote from: spotswood_suzukiAnother reason to upgrade to Progressive Springs :lol: :lol: !
Wayne
Haha... that's after the progressive install. If I decide to go with the bike mounted mrotar launcher I'll have to get cartridge emulators.
Jake
i would buy a holdster with the shoulder straps so you can put it under your arm in your jacket so you will have a less of a chance of landing on it, and so long as you dont have a round chambered most holdsters wont let you chamber a round so long as it is still in the holdster
the tank bag idea is always a good idea
also a holdster that attaches to your calf would work too
Now- If I remember right- Richard's main mode of transport is his bike...
and if you carry a CW you know that 1) you commit to it- it's something that you always do- It's not a "feel like it" thing. 2) It does need to be easily accessable. And 3) it always needs to be concealled. All this has been said.
But there are places that you can not leagally carry and that's where it gets scarey. I don't know how you can honestly leave it securely with your bike. If you could leave it securely- how do you get it off and on, in/and out with out broadcasting that it's a gun?
My advice- carry it on your person and make sure you plan your trips... Good luck-
A small link that might be useful in some way...
It's a website on the legalities of how to pack a pistol and all that stuff. Personally i have never touched a gun though i carry a bullet in my back. In any case...it's a right i think we can never lose.
:guns:
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/2827
Lots of interesting responses, and I appreciate everyone's suggestions.
I can't keep track of names, and am too lazy to go through and figure out who said what, but most guns do have "drop safetys" and "trigger safetys", which are designed to prevent the gun from going off accidently. Also, any holster I would use would have to protect the trigger from getting jostled or snagged. I've taken my dad's Glock 23 apart (don't have my own yet, debating options and agonizing over the idea of spending money on something other than my motorcycle), and I've seen how the drop safety works. If it were to malfunction, it would be more likely to prevent the gun from firing entirely than to make it go off. Still, point is taken.... never have a holster that makes the gun point at yourself.
I carry loaded... I feel that to do otherwise defeats the purpose. If I carry unloaded, and for some reason I *do* need the weapon (Heaven forbid), I'm likely not going to have the presence of mind to remember if I have chambered a bullet... and that's assuming I'm carrying the glock, and not the revolver (which I have on me today). That's a personal decision, and I hold nothing against those who disagree.
As to why carry? I suspect you may still not find this sufficient reason, and I don't begrudge you that, but to explain my point of view:
8 million Americans defend themselves with a handgun every year (approx). Of those, 80% never need to fire a shot. Makes sense, really... if you were going after someone, and they pulled a gun on you, would you stick around to see how it ends? probably not. Nobody who carries ever wants to have to use it... but I would much rather carry and have to use it than not have it when I needed it, and watch someone I care about shot.
In a perfect world, where nobody hurt anyone else, there would be no need for handguns. Until that happens, or somehow you take guns away from all the criminals and I become a blackbelt ninja dude who can project my loved ones with my bare hands (unlikely, I'm afraid), I believe that concealed weapons are an important right, and one that is not abused (by those who can legally excercise it) nearly as often as the media would have us think.
Which brings us to the primary reason I carry: I don't think I'll ever need it, at least not soon. I do think that it's important that the right is not taken from us, and I carry at least as much as my own personal (though not seen) statement of the importance of that right as of anything else.
whew. Alright, back down off the soapbox. =] too many things that I wanted to respond to in those posts!
Oh, and one other thing: I've been thinking about it, and the only way I can think of to securely put the gun in the bike is if I were to mount a safe of some sort (there are some small electronic ones that would probably fit) on my back luggage rack, and then put a security cable to lock it to my bike so it can't be removed without doing some serious work with a hacksaw. However, that wouldn't be waterproof, which would be a trick to overcome, and I suspect it would really paint a target on me for theft. Not to mention screaming "GUN SAFE" to anyone who knows what to look for :nono:
So I guess I'll have to find a solution that doesn't involve something like that. Thanks for all your suggestions, and comments!
This thread is crazy. I cant believe how many of you all own, or carry guns. Its astonishing really. Ive never even held a gun for any amount of time. I cante evn imagine lving in a place where people routinley carry around conceled weapons. Thats f%&ked. No wonder your murder rate is so high. not trying to be a prick, but its is insane.
Regarding the safety or drop-safety, I doubt that these are tested by throwing the gun against the pavement or an oncoming vehicle at 60mph. Now, if you keep it securely enough on your person and YOU hit something and do 60-0mph., then you won't be around to care whether your gun went off.
One typical problem is what to do with the gun at resturaunts, etc. where you need to take off your coat. You can't really leave it in your tank bag :nono: so without a secure trunk, you might be left wearing your riding jacket through dinner.
They did the banning firearms thing in Australia, and from what I can remember, gunfire related incidents went down, but home invasions, the ones where people are still in the house when someone breaks in... those went up quite a bit :o A criminal would think hard 2 or 3 times before entering a house with potentially well armed citizens still there. Anyways, criminals don't follow the law... blah blah blah if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
Did you know that NYC has a much lower murder rate than someplace like Washington, DC? And DC has stricter gun laws :dunno: Community attitudes and good policing matter more than the gun itself.
Just to correct misinformation... NYC, in effect, actually has at least as strict if not stricter weapons laws than the District of Columbia.
check packing.org if interested
For those that quoted me, please read what I wrote.
With properly designed guns, pulling the trigger will move the firing pin in front of the hammer allowing it to fire. If the hammer is pulled back without the using the trigger, the firing pin is out of the way and the gun will not fire. Some guns will fire if dropped or abused...that is why I have Beretta's.
Quote from: heentJust to correct misinformation... NYC, in effect, actually has at least as strict if not stricter weapons laws than the District of Columbia.
check packing.org if interested
You're right... my bad :oops:
Rich, forgive my candor, but if you've "never even held a gun for any amount of time", then you should rectify that before making statements about how crazy or astonishing it is. I know a lot of people who make statements about how motorcycles should be outlawed as well, who have never been on one. However, I am a strong believer that everyone has a right to their own opinion.
Let me help your imagination a bit, though. Imagine your life just like it is now, except... well... hmm. just like it is now. that's what a world where people around you carry concealed. It's illegal to let people know you are carrying concealed. You wouldn't know anyone was carrying, and none of them would turn around and shoot you one day. This is how life is when people carry concealed... exactly like it is when people don't. The only exception is if someone threatens the safety of the people around you, and someone has a concealed weapon, in which case (depending on the circumstance... you don't draw a gun when someone has one pointed at you, that's asking to be shot) they will be able to protect innocent lives.
Just because I carry around a concealed weapon does not mean I am going to kill someone with it. I personally have never shot anyone, and I'm sure that nobody else on the board has murdered anyone with theirs either. Since you've never gone to a range and fired a handgun yourself, I won't take offense to your implication that carrying a handgun makes me a raving lunatic or a homocidle maniac. Believe it or not, it doesn't... any more than you're love of riding motorcycles makes you a suicidle moron, as some would tell you.
Before you make statements about things, take some time and become educated about it. Anyone can rant about the dangers of swimming, but when you get in the water you'll most likely find that with some sensible precautions, and some common sense, it's really not that dangerous.
In the Army I could easily pick off targets with my 50 cal at 1000 meters......that would just make my gs500 complete!
Time to envision a mount....
I am from TX, and routinely carried outside of town at our lease...not for people but snakes and such.
In KS people are a little to timid to have a concealed weapon law....but if there was I would carry.
Why, not because nothing has happened where I needed one....it is simply the what if factor...like a boy scout....why do I have more crap with me than I would ever need.....my nice warm security blanket.
I was trying so hard to keep outta this, but I think I know where Rich is coming from and it MAY have come across wrong in his thread... let me elaborate with my opinion. Sorry Rich if this isn't what you meant.
I have been totally blown away (pardon the pun) at how casual this discussion about carrying guns has been. In no way do I think you guys are crazy, or a danger to society. On the contrary, you come across as very thoughtful responsible individuals. But based on my upbringing, the thought of myself as a thoughtful, responsible individual carrying a gun is quite extreme. I find this rational thread about carrying guns outside of my "map of reality" and thus was a little unsettled at first.
Richard raised some valid arguments for carrying a gun and I could bring up many counter arguments and we could go on and on, but this won't be settled in this thread. Different people are raised in different cultures with different opinions.
I must say I have been fascinated with this thread though... I had no idea how casual of a topic this could be for individuals and it has broadened my knowledge of the world. Cool!
I understand that there are many reasons people disagree with carrying. I hope I didn't come across too strongly. It was not my intention to start an argument about whether or not you should carry a gun, merely to help illustrate some of the reasons that I do carry.
I hold no ill will against those who disagree, and I hope I didn't offend anyone with my posts. 8)
I've seen some shoulder holsters that can be completely zipped so they doesn't look like a gun holster, but i wonder if the fact that anyone who knows about this kind of holsters see you packing them under your seat while attending a federal building, etc, would mean the gun is no more concealed. It's like carring a gitar case with a guitar inside, noone sees the guitar but everybody asumes you have one in. Therefore, is the guitar concealed or not?
Hey TR im not sure about your local laws but here in PA its not considered concealed if the holster is visible. So if they see you're holster; even if the grip, hammer, etc. isn't visible its still illegal...so u might want to look into that.
As far as Rich500...you would make a good politician...you act like you know everything about something you admit you know nothing about. Comparing murders rates to concealed carry permits is like saying filling prescriptions are causing drug overdoses. The murders/overdoses are caused by people who receive their product illegally. Do you know how hard it is to get a gun in the US? I've been around guns my whole life (my dad owns a gunshop/is a gunsmith for a number of years) and now if you have a DUI you can't buy a gun unless you go to the sheriff's office and plead your case. I could keep telling you stories but I have a feeling they'll fall on deaf ears.
Take a lesson from Lerxst and look into the whole story instead of blurting out something stupid that will offend others.
I can't think of a single place besides a shoulder holster that would keep it out of the way. I have guns (at a family place 200 miles away from here). Grew up with them, but for some reason am having a hard time justifying getting the kids into it here while we live in Philly. The hunting SUCKS here ;) . Not much game land.
In this neck of the woods, I do my best to stay out of situations in which I would need to shoot. :guns:
Thanks Gitarman for the answer.
I guess a custom leather mc jacket could include a concealed gun pocket, so it is able to take of the jacket safely. It may not work in case of a federal building, etc. unless the pocket contained a gun-shapeless pack, suitable to store it under the seat. Both pocket and pack having velcro openings.
To find such a jacket would be a problem, but not the holster...
Quote from: Rich500This thread is crazy. I cant believe how many of you all own, or carry guns. Its astonishing really. Ive never even held a gun for any amount of time. I cante evn imagine lving in a place where people routinley carry around conceled weapons. Thats f%&ked. No wonder your murder rate is so high. not trying to be a prick, but its is insane.
Yea I agree,
and I guesse I understand why ppl that have been in the Service feel weird w/o a gun, and maybe it could be said that the gun is in good hands
it also could prove the theory that the gov is brainwashing ppl
I personally would never consider caring a gun anywhere or even owning one, if I though I needed one I would move.
sorry for those who have guns, sorrry you feel you need to carry one.
I understand for hunting perposes, (although I am not in favor of killing for fun)
ok sorry again if this is too political for this board, but these are ideas, not trying to push them on other ppl (like religion does) haha now I am affending ppl
Sorry that last comment was a joke
Hey mods, this topic probably needs to be moved into Odds' and Ends.
jake
Wow, you guys are touchy about your conceled weapons.
QuoteBefore you make statements about things, take some time and become educated about it. Anyone can rant about the dangers of swimming, but when you get in the water you'll most likely find that with some sensible precautions, and some common sense, it's really not that dangerous.
Im not goingt o bother arguing with you people. I think carrying conceled weapons is a bit superfluous. I think that I feel much safer in a place where someone can be packing heat while casually strolling through the mall. I personally dont like this idea. As for not being educated, well, thats just a silly accusation. If you look at statistics for murder rates, and man slaughter between 2 places, one where conceled weapons are legal, and one where they are not, you will soon see that there is a corelation.
More people die where the guns are completely legal. Thats a fact.
QuoteAs far as Rich500...you would make a good politician...you act like you know everything about something you admit you know nothing about.
Strangely enough, I actually have studied this topic. We discussed it thouroughly in a political science course I took last year. I personally think statistics that I could find in a text book, would fall on deaf ears.
This is a silly argument. I guess I just cant look at it the same way you can. Sorry, I am froma peaceful nation, where murder rates are low, shootings in frequent, and I feel safe. I just dont approve of the idea of conceled weapons freely floating about.
Oh yah, by crazy, I emant I think its strange to be able to carry around something designed so specifically to take the life of another human, like its a wallet. In truley do think its odd, and I bet many european, and Canadian forumers will agree. You guiys dont need to get bent over it. Its just an opiniopn. So ease off. And if you want some statistics, I might be able to scrounge some up. I think its not neccisary, but who knows.
Just dont get angry and shoot me when I take my yearly ride through California. God, guns scare me. I just have a problem with it, thats all there is too it. No disrecpect inteneded. It is in your constitution, and who can argue with the US constitution right? JUst kidding... A little peace will help us all.
Quote from: Rich500Oh yah, by crazy, I emant I think its strange to be able to carry around something designed so specifically to take the life of another human, like its a wallet. In truley do think its odd, and I bet many european, and Canadian forumers will agree. You guiys dont need to get bent over it. Its just an opiniopn. So ease off. And if you want some statistics, I might be able to scrounge some up. I think its not neccisary, but who knows.
Just dont get angry and shoot me when I take my yearly ride through California. God, guns scare me. I just have a problem with it, thats all there is too it. No disrecpect inteneded. It is in your constitution, and who can argue with the US constitution right? JUst kidding... A little peace will help us all.
I totally agree with you. I've lived in the UK and live in Australia now.
I used to think it was really weird for cops to carry guns.
I can see the point about wanting to protect yourself, but I'd much rather live in a society when you don't have to carry a gun for protection.
I don't think being able to carry concealed weapons makes you any safer or guarentees your freedom.
/\---Excellent post. I agree completely. Its almost a chain reaction. people buy guns, carry them around, others feel unsafe without a gun to protect against those wwith, so they buy a gun, and soon, you have quite a few guns casually strolling around. Cops in Canada carry guns, and that doesnt amke me nervous as much. Im just stunned, like someone else said earlier, how casual this conversation is. Its fascinating really. I live an hour from the American border, but in some ways, I live a whole world away.
After reading this discussion on whether to carry or not and if so how? I can only speak from experience. I was a motor cop for 5 years and didn't have to carry concealed but did have to use it in the line of duty. The thing about any weapon is if you can't get to it when you need it then there's no real reason to carry one. If you are going to carry, and a lot of people do, then you need to train with it so as not to end up shooting yourself with it. I'm also a firearms instructor and the sad statistic is that the average officer who is involved in a gun fight that dies is killed by his/her own weapon the majority of the time. The hit ratio is about 11% for LEO's versus the bad guys of 60%. That stems from the fact that in most cases LEO's are reacting to a situation and are always behind the decision of the bad guy to use deadly force. I don't know what the stats are for civilians. I do know that if you move when being shot at you increase your chances of survival by 70%, being on a bike and moving (i.e. hauling @**) should improve your chances even more. Something I always tell my students is that the best defensive tactics tool that you possess is between your ears. Use common sense! When entering any area where you feel uncomfortable do not linger and leave the area immediately.
As to the question of how to carry if you do chose to do so leaglly, the DeSaints Belly Band is a good option as it allows you to carry in a manner that usually doesn't constrict your movement. I'd hate to leave a weapon on a bike and then return to find the bike and the weapon stolen.
www.shootersden.com/Desantis/catalog/style60.htm - 3k -
One good rule of thumb to remember, if you are stopped by the Po Po, please make sure to inform them in a non threatening manner that you are carrying a concealed weapon. You may still find yourself face down on the asphalt until the officer dispells any alarm, but if you are carrying it in compliance with your local and state law then there shouldn't be a problem.
The decision to carry any type of weapon is one that must be made with the understanding of the law and using good judgement taking the totality of your situation and personality into consideration.
Just a voice of experience. Ride safe! :thumb:
Also, keep in mind. a Concealed Weapon doesnt have to be A Fire arm. If i have to pull a weapon i would rather hurt (severly) then kill, im not afraid of Guns and have been through the CWC (just ran out of cash to send it in) I favor a colapsable ASP or some other extending weapon. i have been shot at before, taken knives away from others and dodged baseball bats, worn a couple too. 90% of those encounters i never had to hurt the other person IF i even had to touch them. the Gun i just didnt move, i have found most with guns dont want to take life if they can get away without doing so.(im also of the mind if you shoot me, You better kill me) Knives, most just think they are bad ass and are scrapers but are too fearful of or cant afford to get/have/get caught with a gun. once disarmed (the tricky part) they are no different from you fist to fist and 2' of telescoping weighted tube helps level the feild. one good crack to the wrist/knee cap often changes thier outlook of the moment. Baseball bats! watch out for the wooden ones they break things, but easyer to get under. the aluminum ones Hurt like hell, but takes a few more shots to do same damage. the lighter weight gives them better recovery time, trust me on this. best bet on all cases is to RUN your ass off, or get into an area where there is a bunch of people, most deviants dislike witnesses.
ive totaled in my 31 years aprox 14 fights, 4 of them in Jr high,5 in highschool and 5 through jobs and drunks. out of all them, i had to hurt 2 minorly and put 4 in hospital to get them to stop. the gun man, he changed his mind and left.
while working in a pawn shop in miami, i was required to carry while on property and i carried when i did bank runs. only once did i pull my gun on someone, cuz he walked in carrying a shot gun in the wrong way (uncovered and cross his body in both hands) though he was there to pawn the gun and quickly understood and the gun. I was ready to do what i had to do. and let me tell you you want to talk about messed up body chemistry? for 2 days my system was screwed yup from the chemical dump. Some of you will know what im talking about.
oh well.
Um back to the original post, WHAT THE HECK WOULD YOU NEED A GUN FOR WHILE RIDING!?!?!?!?! :?
I've ridden through Harlem, and that thought had never even come remotely close to entering my mind. Keep it in the firing range, cowboy. :dunno:
I have had my CW permit whenever legally possible in my state of residence for the last 6 years. All of my weapons stay locked. I've slept with a loaded weapon in the house three nights: twice when I heard shots in my neighborhood, and once when the end-game was going down with the D.C. sniper (longshot, but it made me feel safer). I have only carried about 10 or 15 times that I can remember mainly for the following reasons:
1. In most states you have a legal obligation to FLEE any potential attacker when in public. This means that even if someone is trying to kill you, you can't try to kill them until you try to run away.. only when you are cornered can you legally defend yourself.
2. It can escallate a fist-fight to a deadly encounter. If some guy wants to tackle me and scrap for a while, so be it. But if he tackles me and we start scrummin' and my gun gets lose, I can be held at least partially responsible for whatever goes wrong (since I introduced the deadly weapon)... or I can be dead.
3. Some states have equal force laws, which means that if I'm attacked with a baseball bat, I can't legally reciprocate with a pistol. I have to reciprocate with "equal force". I've been told that PA is one of these states :roll:
Overall carrying may put you in a better position to defend yourself, but it can be a legal beeeeyotch to get exonerated when you use it because of laws/situations like the ones listed above.
Quote. I live an hour from the American border, but in some ways, I live a whole world away.
Really, it's amazing that you-all are just discovering that the USA is NOT a member of the British Commonwealth. :guns:
/\---Um, okay. Im not even going to bother. Seriously, that had no revelvance. There was no claim about it being part of the commonwealth, not even an incinuation. Nothing. just referance to how cultrally differant we are, even though we are so close. If you cant understand that, there must be aproblem.
Quote from: GisserQuote. I live an hour from the American border, but in some ways, I live a whole world away.
Really, it's amazing that you-all are just discovering that the USA is NOT a member of the British Commonwealth. :guns:
:? I guess I just didn't realise that the USA was on a totally different planet...
It's interesting to see how this thread has progressed. We are all scratching at a topic that has been debated for years- with definate moral, political, and social implications.
I have found that most people who legally carry a firearm do it with a sincere respect for life- and the right to live. Unfortunately we live in a world with bad people who do bad things and don't respect life. How you deal with that is a choice you make- it's a choice that you will live with- so choose wisely.
I seems to me very interesting and valuable the coments of those guys who have carried because of work, and those who can tell from both sides of the laws. Also it doesn't surprise to me that some guys are against firearms. I personally have carried a concealed firearm a few times, and even when once I was assaulted had no chance to draw it or decided not to draw it. I agree with those who think common sense should lead.
BUT, firearms were designed to shoot bullets, not to kill people. They should be considered a poor engineering product as many shoot people remains alive, or some even got harmless. Of course they can do the job, and sometimes they do it terribly well, as well as kitchen knives, or baseball bats (wasn't baseball a sport?).
It's like those who yell against motorcycles because they are the hell. Then we all shoud drive cars. I'm not on one side or the other, but simply some arguments are too crazy for me. A thumb rule here is: "you can get out of jail but can't get out of pantheon". Of course some radical laws could send you there after you dodge it.
This response is primarily to refute Rich500's misinformation. Studies available with US (I have no idea about Canada) statistics indicate that while firearm ownership has increased in the last several years, firearm crime, particularly homicide, has decreased. Furthermore, at least one study below (the last link) shows that crime rates are actually reduced in jurisdictions where concealed carry is allowed. I think at best we may be able to say more legal gun ownership equates to less crime; however, I think we can at least say there is no correlation (as opposed to "If you look at statistics for murder rates, and man slaughter between 2 places, one where conceled weapons are legal, and one where they are not, you will soon see that there is a corelation.")
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fidc9397.htm
Firearm injury/death from crime.
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/sept297.htm
quick stats on ownership
http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/165476.pdf
Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms
http://www.pubpol.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/SAN01-14.pdf
Dr. Cook's stats on gun ownership and crime rates
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html
Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun (I couldn't find this text at a more independent source, sorry)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htiuscdb.pdf
Homicide Trends in the US
http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Lott/lott.pdf
Crime, Deterrence, and the Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns
What can I say, ignorance is bliss.
Im not going to bother any longer arguing this point. Even if I did post statistics that support my point, you will continue to deny. CArry guns, shoot eachother, fine by me. Mutual deterance is America's way of dealing with aggressors. Differant strokes for differant folks.
The Second Amendment is the most dated amendment on the constitution. I love how F-ing republicans want people carrying firearms, but believe ghey marriage is going to be detremental to this country. :?
PS F Bush :thumb:
Coming from canada myself, I'm in complete agreement with Rich500. I don't think I've even seen a handgun (other than a Pellet gun) out of a holster, let alone held one, or carried one.
Different strokes for different folks indeed.
This thread is going nowhere, so I'm going to bow out at this point. It no longer has any relevance and will soon escalate out of hand if not ended.
Thank you to those of you who gave me real, though out answers. On the assumption that a few of the questions that were leveled at me were honest curiosity, I will respond to a few things.
1. I don't think I'll need to be carrying on a bike, but my bike is my primary transportation. The decision to carry is one I thought about for a long time, and it's not one I do "just whenever the fancy strikes". It's not a toy, and I don't treat it as one.
2. Statistically, statistics can be used to "prove" anything. Rich, you can give me any string of statistics you want, and I can find statistics to refute every one of them... and it's entirely possible both sides would have reputable sources. If your source is your textbook, however, I'm not terribly interested. Another statistic for you: Countries tint the school curriculem to make people happier with current laws. Therefore, in your country where it's illegal to carry, of course statistics will say that. Just like in a country where everyone had guns they would show that it was safer that way. I have read all of your statistics, and I have read mine... and while I disagree with you, no hard feelings, I hope. I won't quote you statistics, because that would just start an argument that would never end.
For any who are curious, I think what I will end up with is just a standard belt holster when I carry and ride, for now at least, with a shirt over it. I don't think locking it on the bike would work... I did come up with a way that I could mount a gun safe on the back of the bike, and I guess I could hide it in a soft tail bag, but it would be very difficult to put inside w/out advertising what it was, which would be A Bad Thing.
Thanks everyone for your input. Sorry to cause so much contention. Having spent time on this board for the past several months since I got my bike, it's been my experience that most of us here are mateur adults who can deal with people having differing opinions without holding grudges... I hope that will be the case here as well.
And now to see if my newly upgraded fork oil (upgraded the springs a few months ago) has the hoped-for improvements.... :thumb:
QuoteI guess I just didn't realise that the USA was on a totally different planet...
This is very true. The USA is on Mars. In fact, yesterday, NASA made an important announcement: They've discovered
dry land on the Martian surface! :lol:
I'm not going to spen time here in meaningless(for this place)rhetoric......
I've been shooting guns every since I could hold them(my father is former army).
I was brought up to pull a gun only if you meant to kill, and only kill what you will eat.
Once I was older(more MATURE), I was brought to understand that you would fight to defend you and yours(by any means nec.).
I own several firearms, and the are allways loaded except for cleaning, and my gf has a pistol that I sold her before we started dating, and it follows the same rule.
Most people who own or carry outside of hunting for food(for sport sucks, if you shoot it, eat it), will only defend their own. I regularly carry, but if I had or did not have firearm, anybody who was an immediate danger to me or mine would quickly realize that it was a poor choice(and no, I'm not a ninja dude).
Don
Hello,
This is my first post ever, so please be gentle.
I wanted to offer a suggestion to those members out there looking for a good concealable firearm to carry while riding. I'm not trying to continue the pro/con firearms debate, but rather just passing along some technical data.
Check out the Kel-tec P32 semi-auto .32 ACP caliber pistol. It's really a remarkable bit of engineering. The P32 has a number of features usually only found on much larger and more expensive weapons: double-action only trigger, locked breech action, CNC manufactured aluminum frame, composite grips, and internal hammer.
An internal hammer block disengages only when the trigger is pulled all the way, providing a high degree of safety. What is most amazing is the size. The P32 weighs only 9oz loaded, and is only 5" high x 3" wide x 3/4inch wide (it's unbelievably thin!). When I carry mine inside a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster, it never "prints", even in nice dress pants.
In the past, small pocket pistols were squirrelly little buggers that needed a special diet to work well. I've fed my P32 cartridges from a wide variety of manufacturers and haven't had any problems. I don't know what they cost these days, but I paid $320 for mine (with the Parkerized finish) at a local gun show.
Accuracy is pretty good at close range, which is all these little pistols are designed for. Personally, I prefer FMJ over hollow-points on something this small.
Hope this helps.
The Keltec you describe is what I usuallly have n hand. It is an interesting piece of work, and a fairly good firearm.
Shadowhawk
I have mounted a couple of RPGs on the front forks, just in case I see a rabbit or pheasant (in season) and modified the rear footpegs, dumped the Givi replacing it with a swivel mount for my stripped Lewis gun from a WW1 biplane fighter, the passenger faces backwards and gets the stuff I miss. Cool huh?
Wow, this thread got big fast.I've had a CCW since I was 22 years old.I did have to use a handgun in self defense once when a crazy SOB smashed his way into my house about 11:00 one night.I didn't have to shoot him, but held him at gun point until the police arrived.
I once met a guy that was into mountain biking.He told me he always carried a handgu. I asked him why, and he told me once he was out biking in the woods not far from Puyallup, Wa.He was, at one point, surrounded by a pack of wild dogs.These dogs had every intention of having him for lunch it seems.He shot one, and the noise disbursed them.He could have just as easily have been riding a dirt bike, or dual sport bike.
The third point I want to make to those of you that think guns are only for killing people is this:I have probably fired 10,000 rounds either in competition, or to develope hand loads for accuracy and competition.I was also born and raised around firearms and firearm safetey.I don't hunt because I don't enjoy killing animals (but I am not anti-hunting), and in all this time and shots fired, I have never shot at, hit, or killed another person with a firearm.
I have often carried.I have to open the place I work at, in the early AM by myself, in a very bad neighborhood(4:00 am or 5:30 am).
By the way, my carry gun is a Charter Arms .44 Bulldog. I don't generally carry when I ride.
Quote from: Cal PriceI have mounted a couple of RPGs on the front forks, just in case I see a rabbit or pheasant (in season) and modified the rear footpegs, dumped the Givi replacing it with a swivel mount for my stripped Lewis gun from a WW1 biplane fighter, the passenger faces backwards and gets the stuff I miss. Cool huh?
Brilliant -- very funny! Not because I think you really did (or really would) do it, but because of the imagination and the well-crafted writing:
just in case I see a rabbit or pheasant
(in season) :roll:
the passenger faces backwards and
gets the stuff I miss :)
Cool huh? :lol: [/list:u]I don't know - maybe it's just the way British folks have of saying things. But I had a good belly laugh over the ludicrous mental image it conjured up.
Cheers Kerry,
I normally try to keep out of the U.S. domestic gun debate, different situation, different problems etc,. but I could not resist that one.
Incidently I don't have anything against the hunting of edible prey but folks wantdering about with concealed handguns is a concept I find difficult to grasp as is Oscar Wilde's "Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible" (The English gent foxhunting)
'Nuf said, I shall keep out of it, Horses for Courses and all that.
Birdmove: I've read about the C.A. .44 Bulldog before. Quite potent for being a relatively small revolver. Is it hard to find ammo in .44 Special? Do you load your own cartridges?
I can appreciate that some of our friends from overseas, Canada, and the blue states might feel a bit concerned about their safety while visiting the well-armed south. Rest assured that you're in no danger. A study commissioned by the State of Florida found that Concealed Carry permit holders were FAR more law-abiding than non-CCW holders as a whole, and were involved in firearms related felonies at less than 1/100 of the rate of non-CCW holders.
I carry for 2 primary reasons:
1. We've got critters down here that may try to eat you.
2. I haven't figured out how to lock the doors on my GS500 yet.
Hope you're all having a lovely day.
what are you talking about its not a fact that where concealed carry is legal that murder rate is higher. In fact its the opposite its where carry is banned or by permit only that murder rate is higher.
New York - permit only
Baltimore- permit only hard as hell to get a permit
LA- Same
Colorado except denver- non concealed carry acceptable concealed carry ok by easy to get pemit
Vermont- all carry ok no permit required
Texas- similar to CO
You see the trend ?lets take take CO for example low murder rate overall most happens in denver where the carry laws are stricter. Look at the other places low murder/crime rate where concealed and open carry is acceptable. Where the hell do you see higher murder rates in places with loose carry laws in the US.
Quote from: bcutrufelli
You see the trend ?
yes, I see the trend... but keep in mind that
correlation[/i] and
causation[/i] are two different things. There can be plenty of correlation without a true cause and effect relationship. The chicken/egg argument applies here:
One group will say that having loose carry laws makes the community safer.
i.e. the guns caused the region to be safer.The other will say that locations like CO and TX are mostly rural, and the criminal element just plain isn't there to begin with, so granting the right to carry doesn't jeapordize public safety as much as it would in, say, D.C. where the criminal element is much more prevalent.
i.e. the unsafe region caused the gun laws to be strict. who is right? I don't know ... and I don't particularly care.
as for me: I pick my battles, and convincing the rest of the country to change their minds isn't on my plate right now. I just choose to live where I can carry. That's what I love about this country, you don't like the laws in one state, you can just move across the border...
viva states-rights!!! :cheers:
Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special. You can get factory ammo.The gun is pretty light, so 180-200 grain bullets is about right.Mine likes 200 grain lead hollow points.This puts me in the "large diameter buulet at moderate velocity" group, rather than the small dia. at faster speeds club.I believe in the .44 and .45 calibers.
Birdmove
Look at the stats: in the US there are an average of about a billion murders anually in which firearms were used, and in the UK there are about 1% of that per capita. So that means that while guns may make you feel safer, in actuality there is a greater chance that you will die by the hands of a gun toter.
Oh yeah, I own a 30-30 Winchester.
I carry either a j frame 357snubby or a GL26 more or less everywhere I go. I have found through trial and error a few ways to carry with at least a degree of safety on a motorcycle.
1. Shoulder Holsters are great for concealment, but they do hurt. Around the city is fine, long trips will be quite annoying.
2. Inside the pants holsters are out out out. It is way too easy for the jacket to ride up and *ping* there is your sidearm for everyone to see and freak the frak out about.
3. Inside the pocket holsters, sewn either into a jacket pocket (preferred) or a pants or cargo pocket, work best. They provide excellent concealability with reasonably fast draw times. The drawback is, you usually have to fabricate or modify them yourself. ALWAYS INCLUDE EITHER A RETENTION OR THUMBSTRAP, AND TRY NOT TO CARRY A CHAMBERED WEAPON UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.
-Remember, too, that there are lots of less-lethal alternatives if firearms make you nervy. OC/CS aerosols (FOX5point3 brand is best) are non lethal, extremely effective, and do not require a CCW. Collapsible batons or kali sticks can be ordered from GALL's incorporated (google it). These things are great, IF you know how to use one.
FINALLY, if you are travelling in an area where your personal safety is that much of a concern, you might want to think about why the hell youre going there anyway, hmmm?
Quote from: DomLook at the stats: in the US there are an average of about a billion murders anually in which firearms were used, and in the UK there are about 1% of that per capita. So that means that while guns may make you feel safer, in actuality there is a greater chance that you will die by the hands of a gun toter.
:? So about 3 times the number of people who live in the US are murdered every year with firearms? Well, can't argue with statistics :bs:.
Nope you can't argue with the stats. In this country most people die in Hospital, the second highest number is in their own beds. Therefore if you are felling unwell do NOT go near a Hospital or your bed as statistically they are the most dangerous places to be.
This gun discussion is really fascinating. I'm pleased to see that the folks who either support or actually do carry are for the most part admonishing any kind of carelessness when it comes to the act. It's good to see a lot of thoughtful posts on the issue.
At the risk of throwing this topic straight into the Odds n' Ends forum, how difficult is it to obtain a license, or permit, or what have you for a gun?
if it's as easy as my permit test for operating a motor vehicle (read: large, high speed projectile) was, then I'm a little concerned.
I haven't had much experience with firearms aside from growing up in the country and using my older brother's .22 rifle for recreational target shooting, and am pretty much clueless as to what safeguards the law provides to make sure people who own, let alone carry in public, firearms are competent (in all the ways they should be)
and just to ensure some REALLY long responses, are the hurdles for being able to carry in public much higher?
Specifically to those carrying out there who have gone through the tests: with disregard for the firearm on your person protecting you, do you feel secure that the safeguards in place (license, permit, waiting period, and whatever else or lack thereof) will prevent the unstable/homocidal/etc people from getting them? I don't mean criminals per se, as the argument is that they're the ones who get them illegally anyway, but more like that guy down the street with the short fuse whose a little off-kilter to begin with, maybe worse so than we think.
Thanks for the great discussion, it almost makes the fact that my bike's put away for the winter bearable. (there, a motorcycle reference. the thread stays!)
Regards,
Riz
:thumb:
Birdmove: No arguing with the superior terminal ballistics of the big rounds. Much less concern about overtravel too.
Hysyde636: Excellent suggestion about securing a pocket holster. My DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster fits pretty snugly inside my FirstGear HT Air overpants, but a few well-placed stitches certainly can't hurt.
Riz: Licensing requirements are determined on a state-by-state basis. In New York, obtaining a pistol permit is a laborious process, and your chances of success are dependant upon the political leanings of your local judicial district. You are more likely to succeed if you live in a rural county rather than an urban one (I grew up in Syracuse where the local judge refused all permits no matter what).
In Florida and most other states, you do not need a permit to own a pistol or a rifle, but you do need a permit to carry one concealed. Regardless of where you live, all firearm purchasers are checked against the FBI's NICS database of felons and other persons not legally permitted to own a weapon.
To obtain a concealed carry permit in Florida, a person needs to submit to a background check, get fingerprinted by the local sheriff, pay a hefty fee, take a safety class, and pass an accuracy exam at a firing range.
I can't comment about other states, but in Florida, CCW permit holders are far more law abiding than the average citizen.
Riz: In good ol' Kentucky, and probably in other states as well, you DO NOT NEED a permit to carry UNCONCEALED. This basically means that any Kentuckian who is not a convicted felon or convicted domestic offender, who is above the age of 18, can carry a handgun unconcealed in any place that does not have an ordanance banning such an action. This does not, however, apply to vehicles.
W/O a permit, there must be three steps between your hand and the firearm, or you are guilty of a Carrying Concealed Deadly Weapon violation, and will go to jail, and have your weapon confiscated. This means, if the gun is locked in a saddlebag (or in a locked case in the saddlebag) with the magazine out, it is legal (stop bike, get gun from case, load gun). However, this does you absolutely no good when JoeBob Psychopath decides to carve his name into your chest.