I've never before in my life experienced so much first-hand RAGE as the result of the behavior of people in traffic since I moved from Chicago to Tucson. I'd like to start a discussion (as civil as possible) about behaviors and procedures in traffic, and try to get a somewhat national concept on whether or not this is a learned/taught behavior, a misinterpretation of legality, or just behavioral based on a culture.
So, here's the situation:
"You are at an intersection that is currently signalling red, everyone is stopped. There is a dedicated left turn lane with it's own signal, but it is NOT a controlled left turn (no red arrow). You are sitting in queue to make a left turn. Before the main signal turns green, a green left arrow is presented and traffic begins to move through the intersection. Before you can make your turn, the green signal is removed and you stop at the behest of the main red and are now first in line to turn. The main signal turns green allowing traffic to proceed. What do you do now?"
If you're me, you enter the intersection to turn left and at the first opportunity (be it a gap in oncoming flow or the signal changing back to red and stopping oncoming traffic) you make your left hand turn.
Does anyone do otherwise? If so, can you offer me a concise and rational reason as to why?
It seems that here the vast majority of drivers will wait at the stop line for an opportunity to make the left turn, or will not turn at all instead waiting for the light to cycle and present another green arrow. When I question people about it I don't get satisfactory answers and when I try to start discussion I'm often met with "that's just how we do it here" which is about as aggravating of a response as you can get...
if you can proceed legally and safely, proceed. if you cannot do either one, wait.
Aaron
What you are supposed to do is wait at the stop line until the first opportunity to make the left turn while the light is still green.. Technically, entering the intersection without completing your turn is blocking the box and completing the turn after the light turns red is running a red light. However, I don't think I've ever even heard of someone being ticketed for that.
Waiting at the stop line until getting the green arrow again is absolute madness though. You're allowed to turn left on green, you just have to yield to oncoming traffic.
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.
If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.
It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.
Perhaps the traffic laws vary by state, but as far as I am aware, you aren't supposed to enter the intersection if you are not able to proceed the entire way through because you may end up "blocking the box" if traffic is congested. I know there are explicit signs and laws about this in large some cities. I spend a lot of time in NYC since my mom lives there, and there are "Don't block the box" signs all over the place. And I believe I've seen similar signs in Philadelphia.
PA Law on this: "Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time."
I guess you might be able to argue in court that "make the movement" is vague and doesn't necessarily imply that you need to complete the movement. But, I think the intent here is that you aren't supposed to enter the intersection unless you can go through.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2017, 11:49:47 AM
Technically, entering the intersection without completing your turn is blocking the box and completing the turn after the light turns red is running a red light.
I cannot find any law in AZ nor IL that describes this as "running the red light". As far as I can tell, as long as your back tire has cleared the stop line you are considered "in" the intersection and have already conducted your business with the traffic signal. If you are straddling the stop line, the light turns yellow, and you gun it through, then yes, you have run the red. But if you're IN the intersection you're just completing your maneuver. Nobody that I have known or talked to has ever gotten a ticket, via camera or via officer, for doing such a maneuver.
Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.
It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.
This is exactly the case with me, and the source of my frustration. I've taken to considering re-routing my commute to avoid a particular left turn that seems to last 2 cycles longer than it theoretically should because people wait for the arrow and only the arrow to turn. Double worse because the more common arrangement here is a "trailing turn" where the arrow comes AFTER the green-light cycle rather then preceding it, so sometimes drivers don't even realize they have permission to turn for seconds after the light has been green, and by the time 2 cars make it through it's already yellow...
Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
As far as I am aware, you aren't supposed to enter the intersection if you are not able to proceed the entire way through because you may end up "blocking the box" if traffic is congested. I know there are explicit signs and laws about this in large some cities.
In Chicago proper there were such signs, but often there were also controlled turns where the turning lane had it's own set of signals, including a red arrow that stopped all turning traffic. Everywhere else, though, had a typical red/yellow/green/yellow-arrow/green-arrow arrangement.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2017, 01:28:23 PM
PA Law on this: "Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time."
I'd argue that a normal green light isn't directional, so making a left turn on a solid green IS "such other movement as is permitted", so long as there is no red arrow prohibiting such movement.
Our uncontrolled left turns would have a green light or a flashing yellow before or after the green arrow to indicate that you can still legally make a left turn when safe to do so. These signals will also always have a red light to indicate when you cannot legally enter the intersection.
If the traffic engineers thought it was safe in that intersection for you to make a left turn when oncoming traffic has a green light they would have given you a green light or flashing yellow before the green arrow. Or are you saying that the intersection has green arrows but no other left turn signals? If that is the case I would read it the same as having a dedicated green and turn left when its safe to do so.
If the signal for your lane is red you cannot enter the intersection. In Oregon, the exception to this is turning left on red onto a one-way street. This is a weird Oregon rule and I think only one other state allows left turns on red onto one way streets.
Here are our rules:
-You can turn left on red from a one-way street onto a one-way street.
-You can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street.
-You cannot turn left on red from a one-way street onto a two-way street.
-You definitely cannot turn left on red from a two-way street onto a two-way street.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on November 22, 2017, 03:16:17 PM
Are you saying that the intersection has green arrows but no other left turn signals? If that is the case I would read it the same as having a dedicated green and turn left when its safe to do so.
Yes.
I never enter the intersection or proceed past the stop line until I know I can complete the left turn and be on my way.
I don't like the thought of being in the middle of an intersection waiting to make a turn because if there is a collision in the intersection, it potentially puts me closer to getting hit with debris, the involved vehicles, etc.
I personally feel safer back behind the stop here line and I feel my anxiety rise if I would be in the middle of the intersection but unable to make the turn and get out of the way. My mind says, "Wait here. Be patient. Execute the whole turn when you can."
Also, IIRC, I once heard about a law that says if you are hit by another vehicle while in the middle of the intersection, the eyes of the law can see that as YOUR fault... or PARTIALLY YOUR fault... because it can be assumed that you were in motion and were supposed to be yielding.
If you are stopped behind the "stop here" line, the law can't really justify saying, "You were already into a turn that you were not supposed to be doing because you were to be yielding."
Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.
If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.
It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.
Pete, be wary of this. My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)
Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.
If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.
It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.
Same here Pete, if you're in the intersection you must proceed. On a side not if you have to yield to police or ems, and that requires running a red, you can do so just have to be careful.
Aaron
Quote from: ShowBizWolf on November 22, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
I don't like the thought of being in the middle of an intersection waiting to make a turn because if there is a collision in the intersection, it potentially puts me closer to getting hit with debris, the involved vehicles, etc.
Usually a crash in an intersection will happen between oncoming vehicles (would BE you theoretically) or a car turning right in front of oncoming traffic (would happen BEHIND you theoretically).
I won't say you being an unwitting participant isn't impossible, but I think it's highly unlikely, and so long as you know your vehicle and don't put yourself in harm's way by sticking out too far I don't think you're in any real danger.
I can understand and respect the "there's no escape path" argument, and it's your job to not deny yourself somewhere to go and if you feel safer this way (especially by bike) then absolutely I'd agree with you. That being said, when doing the maneuver correctly you won't be cutting your own foot off. When I enter the intersection I'm still facing parallel to traffic despite waiting to turn left, so my escape path is straight across the intersection and potentially back into traffic flow in the direction I'm facing.
In all my years I've never had a close call as a result of me pulling out to turn left. I think the danger associated with it can be exaggerated.
Quote from: Joolstacho on November 22, 2017, 04:35:47 PM
My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)
Hmm. I wonder if Oz has a different manner of law and hence camera system. Here in the USA they seem to be activated by a ground sensor at the stop line. If someone is IN the intersection, the light turns full red, and they finish the turn, there is no picture taken. If someone is with at least their back wheels behind the stop line, and they do the same, you'll see the flash and they'll get the ticket. I've seen people "creep" on a red light and get flashed for it.
Quote from: Joolstacho on November 22, 2017, 04:35:47 PM
Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.
If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.
It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.
Pete, be wary of this. My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)
That doesn't surprise me at all... I should say I got my license many years before there were such things as red light cameras... might be worthwhile having a re-read of that particular part of the law ;)
At one point I was led to believe the cameras only operate on vehicles crossing the line/entering the intersection, so if you're already in it you're fine, but again worth a read on my part to be sure! There's also supposed to be about a 2 second delay between the red light and camera activation, but again probably hearsay...
I can also guarantee there will be dfferences between Qld and Vic, and most definitely differences to the US...
They yanked those around here. An outfit out of Scottsdale az, handled the fines. Cameras are still there just no longer active.
Aaron
Quote from: Watcher on November 22, 2017, 02:02:14 PM
I cannot find any law in AZ nor IL that describes this as "running the red light". As far as I can tell, as long as your back tire has cleared the stop line you are considered "in" the intersection and have already conducted your business with the traffic signal. If you are straddling the stop line, the light turns yellow, and you gun it through, then yes, you have run the red. But if you're IN the intersection you're just completing your maneuver. Nobody that I have known or talked to has ever gotten a ticket, via camera or via officer, for doing such a maneuver.
Like I said, I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for going into the intersection to wait to turn. But, I still don't think that you're technically supposed to enter the intersection at all if you can't complete the given maneuver. And, I definitely don't think that you've "conducted your business with the traffic signal". If you haven't yet exited the intersection, the traffic signal still is supposed to govern your movements.
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This is exactly the case with me, and the source of my frustration. I've taken to considering re-routing my commute to avoid a particular left turn that seems to last 2 cycles longer than it theoretically should because people wait for the arrow and only the arrow to turn. Double worse because the more common arrangement here is a "trailing turn" where the arrow comes AFTER the green-light cycle rather then preceding it, so sometimes drivers don't even realize they have permission to turn for seconds after the light has been green, and by the time 2 cars make it through it's already yellow...
That is a pretty strange arrangement, I've always seen the green arrow come on BEFORE normal green. I wonder what the data behind that decision was...
Quote
I'd argue that a normal green light isn't directional, so making a left turn on a solid green IS "such other movement as is permitted", so long as there is no red arrow prohibiting such movement.
I'd agree with that for sure. Turning left on solid green is a permitted movement as long as there is no red arrow. But I was emphasizing that the law states you can may only
enter the intersection if you are going to perform a "permitted movement". I'm pretty certain that the intent is that if you don't finish your turn, you aren't really "performing" the movement. So, you're not supposed to proceed beyond the stop line if you can't fully complete the turn.
Quote from: Joolstacho on November 22, 2017, 04:35:47 PM
Pete, be wary of this. My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)
This is how I understood it as well. Now that I think about it, I did get a fine from a red light camera for going through on yellow once. The light turned yellow, and I didn't really have enough time/space to safely stop, so I proceeded through. The light turned red while I was almost of the way through the intersection. About a week later, I got a ticket in the mail about it, with a picture of my car almost all the way through the intersection at red. On the ticket, it showed the amount of time the light had been red before I "ran" it and it showed "0.25 seconds." There's no possible way I made it from the stop line to where I was on that picture in less than a quarter of a second. I was only going around 35 mph, its not like I was speeding through there. The distance I would travel in 0.25 seconds at 35mph is ~12 feet. I was much further than 12 feet from the stop line. The intersection in question is at least 25-30 feet wide. Based on where I was in the picture, I had to have been at least 20+ feet from the stop line. So, the camera took a picture of me even though I was in the intersection when the light turned red.
Obviously that's a different situation than being stopped in the intersection waiting to turn, but it does show that entering the intersection does not end your business with the traffic signal.
Quote from: Watcher on November 23, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
Hmm. I wonder if Oz has a different manner of law and hence camera system. Here in the USA they seem to be activated by a ground sensor at the stop line. If someone is IN the intersection, the light turns full red, and they finish the turn, there is no picture taken. If someone is with at least their back wheels behind the stop line, and they do the same, you'll see the flash and they'll get the ticket. I've seen people "creep" on a red light and get flashed for it.
See above story. I got a ticket in Delaware for being "in the intersection" when the light turned red. The US is different than most countries because the traffic laws can vary much more wildly depending on what part of the country you're in.
I'm pretty sure that I could've gotten that ticket overturned if I had showed up to fight it in court. It was just too much effort to do so, since it happened so far from where I actually live. Red light cameras are technically unconstitutional if I remember correctly because you can't "face your accuser" in court. Plus, what would my alternative course of action have been? Slam on my brakes before entering the intersection? I probably would've gotten rear-ended. Seemed much safer to just proceed through on yellow. :dunno_black:
I just found the answer for here in Queensland, and it turns out what I was taught is still true and correct, here is the info from the Qld Dept of Transport website in their road rules section, and for once it's not vague and is actually quite clear:
QuoteTurning right at traffic lights
If the light is green and there are vehicles approaching from the opposite direction, you can move forward into the intersection past the stop line if you can do so safely.
If there is a safe gap in oncoming traffic, you may complete the right turn. If you're in the intersection and the oncoming traffic continues until the lights turn yellow or red, you must complete the turn on the yellow or red light.
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/traffic-lights (https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/traffic-lights)
And for the red light camera, it will only trigger if you've crossed the white stop line after the light has become red, so completing a turn and clearing the intersection after the light has gone red will not result in a fine:
Quote
How red light cameras work
If you drive through a red light, the camera will take at least 2 photos of you. One photo as soon the vehicle crosses the solid white line, and another photo will be taken 1 or 2 seconds later to see where you are in the intersection.
It will not take any photos if the light is green or amber—only if the light is red when the front of your vehicle crosses the solid white line to enter the intersection. The red light camera will send the photos and details of the time, date, amount of time the light was red, and your lane position and amount of time the light was red to the Queensland Police Service Traffic Camera Office.
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/fines/speed/cameras-work (https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/fines/speed/cameras-work)
That's incredibly clear and concise... I wish US laws were as easy to navigate lol.
Yes, thanks for that Pete. I wonder if the law (or the interpretation) is different down here in Vic.
I'm actually quite surprised how clear and concise that is... usually there's an element of vagueness that casts a bit of doubt... guaranteed things will be different in Vic! We couldn't possibly have simple easy and common road rules across our great nation could we? :dunno_black: :technical:
Quote from: qcbaker on November 24, 2017, 06:53:37 AM
Quote
I'd argue that a normal green light isn't directional, so making a left turn on a solid green IS "such other movement as is permitted", so long as there is no red arrow prohibiting such movement.
I'd agree with that for sure. Turning left on solid green is a permitted movement as long as there is no red arrow. But I was emphasizing that the law states you can may only enter the intersection if you are going to perform a "permitted movement". I'm pretty certain that the intent is that if you don't finish your turn, you aren't really "performing" the movement. So, you're not supposed to proceed beyond the stop line if you can't fully complete the turn.
Regardless, it's not like I start the turn heading into the wrong direction of a one way street or something to otherwise make myself incapable of completing the turn, I start the maneuver with the intent to finish, whether or not that is immediately capable is dependant on the level of oncoming traffic flow.
So the way I see it is as long as I am permitted to turn left, any part of my left turn is permitted.
I'm going for my state-cert as an MSF instructor soon (currently have national cert to teach, but not local cert to actually license) so I have a PDF of the ultimate "rules of the road" book with the statues as they're printed. If I come across anything specific for my state I'll be sure to quote it here.
I'm pretty sure that it is NOT legal (in most of not all states) to block an intersection when you are tuning left, right or straight. Vehicles should not enter the intersections if you can't complete the turn before the light changes red. Just because you are sitting in the intersection when the light changes red does not mean you can still go. Granted most LEO's will give leeway to driver who find themselves stuck in that situation but it is still considered blocking the intersections and would be treated as a traffic offense if an accident occurs. Signs stating "do not block the intersections" are like tags on hair driers that say don't use in the shower. Just because there is now sign does not mean it's legal to block.
Here is an article:
http://articles.marco.org/130 (http://articles.marco.org/130)
I agree with the majority here. You have to remain behind the "stop line" until you are ready to complete the turn. Once you initiate motion beyond the stop line, you should be turning.
The whole "proceed into the intersection" thing is just a tactic to force other drivers to yield to you as you make a turn on the yellow/red because you have no choice besides being run over. That, of course, is why it's illegal, at least in TX. Around here people do that mostly because they are trying to make a left turn when there truly will never be a break in oncoming traffic sufficient to make a turn, so they wait until the light in the oncoming direction turns yellow and cars begin to stop and THEN they turn, because that's their only real chance to turn. This I see most often at intersections with no protected left turn at all.
And BTW it's this kind of sort of passive-aggressive rule bending on the roads that infuriates me more than anything. I was nearly killed in an accident because some moron "made a space" in backed up traffic for someone to turn left, and of course I was traveling in the rightmost lane and could not see the oncoming car turning left across my path and hit them in my Miata going about 50 mph. But so many drivers think this kind of thing, letting some other driver get away with bending a rule, is "being nice". But doing so endangers everyone else on the road. So you know I am rooting for you to get a ticket when you run out into the intersection and wait for the yellow to make a left turn. I'm rooting for you to get a ticket because it's far better than the alternative which is that someone sees their light turn green and whizzes through it without seeing you sticking out in the intersection and you wind up getting mowed down.
My other pet peeve in this around here is drivers using the clearly marked "LEFT TURN ONLY" lane as a merge-right lane... because they are making a left turn from a side street and don't want to wait for a break in traffic so they can turn like they are supposed to, so instead they make a turn INTO the left turn lane, then try to merge right out of the turn lane. Just the day before yesterday I was nearly in a head-on collision on my motorcycle because of this. Thank God the motorcycle is narrow and I was able to squeeze around the oncoming car.
Don't even get me started about people passing on your left to turn right in front of you when you are on a bicycle in the bike lane... yeah I can still feel that 13 year old injury right now from when that happened to me.
Point here is, the rules are intended to make for an orderly driving environment where everyone knows what to expect and we agree to do what's expected. The law in NZ may be different than it is in TX, but that makes people expect differently and changes everything. Every time someone bends one of these driving rules it softens the whole social contract we have collectively concerning driving.
+1 And... I think you'd be really scratching to find any jurisdiction on the globe where "INTENT" would get you off!
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
I agree with the majority here. You have to remain behind the "stop line" until you are ready to complete the turn. Once you initiate motion beyond the stop line, you should be turning.
Seems pretty evenly split to me.
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
The whole "proceed into the intersection" thing is just a tactic to force other drivers to yield to you as you make a turn on the yellow/red because you have no choice besides being run over. That, of course, is why it's illegal, at least in TX.
It's not illegal in Texas. I've talked to a Texan at length about it over the phone and we couldn't find any law that specifically prohibits this behavior, if you can produce a statute I'll concede.
But it's not a tactic to "force other drivers to yield to me," I'm still yielding to other drivers.
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
Around here people do that mostly because they are trying to make a left turn when there truly will never be a break in oncoming traffic sufficient to make a turn, so they wait until the light in the oncoming direction turns yellow and cars begin to stop and THEN they turn, because that's their only real chance to turn. This I see most often at intersections with no protected left turn at all.
Is anything wrong with this? It moves more cars through.
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
And BTW it's this kind of sort of passive-aggressive rule bending on the roads that infuriates me more than anything. I was nearly killed in an accident because some moron "made a space" in backed up traffic for someone to turn left, and of course I was traveling in the rightmost lane and could not see the oncoming car turning left across my path and hit them in my Miata going about 50 mph. But so many drivers think this kind of thing, letting some other driver get away with bending a rule, is "being nice". But doing so endangers everyone else on the road.
The situation you describe here also infuriates me. You don't surrender your right-of-way to "be nice" and let someone through heavy traffic, especially not when the lane next to you may have traffic still moving in it.
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
So you know I am rooting for you to get a ticket when you run out into the intersection and wait for the yellow to make a left turn. I'm rooting for you to get a ticket because it's far better than the alternative which is that someone sees their light turn green and whizzes through it without seeing you sticking out in the intersection and you wind up getting mowed down.
I don't think this is a likely scenario. Once again, "everyone" did this back in IL and nobody got T-boned as a result. Not only would you be in direct line of sight of cross traffic, but you'll likely be through the intersection completely by the time the light turns green.
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
Point here is, the rules are intended to make for an orderly driving environment where everyone knows what to expect and we agree to do what's expected. The law in NZ may be different than it is in TX, but that makes people expect differently and changes everything. Every time someone bends one of these driving rules it softens the whole social contract we have collectively concerning driving.
Sure, rules make for orderly driving. But there is no rule that says you can't enter the intersection to turn left on a green light (unless there is another signal or marking prohibiting so). There IS a rule that says a green light gives you permission to proceed through an intersection.
So whats the verdict here?
I found a video confirming my point of view. It's not cited as being from a traffic school or anything but it seems professionally done, so just take it at face value.
Quote from: Watcher on November 30, 2017, 01:11:13 PM
It's not illegal in Texas. I've talked to a Texan at length about it over the phone and we couldn't find any law that specifically prohibits this behavior, if you can produce a statute I'll concede.
This Texan disagrees, as do all of the "do not block the box" signs posted everywhere that people try to do this. But I don't care enough about what you think about it to go search through the TX Transportation Code, but you are more than welcome to go look.
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
Around here people do that mostly because they are trying to make a left turn when there truly will never be a break in oncoming traffic sufficient to make a turn, so they wait until the light in the oncoming direction turns yellow and cars begin to stop and THEN they turn, because that's their only real chance to turn. This I see most often at intersections with no protected left turn at all.
Is anything wrong with this? It moves more cars through.
What's wrong with it is that it's dangerous. It would move more cars through to have no traffic light at all, wouldn't it?
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I don't think this is a likely scenario. Once again, "everyone" did this back in IL and nobody got T-boned as a result.
Perhaps it was legal in IL and "everyone" expected it and accommodated it. Maybe traffic light timing was designed such that it made extra room for the latent left turns before the cross traffic light turns green. Adjusting traffic light timing is far easier than changing driver's behavior en masse.
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Sure, rules make for orderly driving. But there is no rule that says you can't enter the intersection to turn left on a green light (unless there is another signal or marking prohibiting so). There IS a rule that says a green light gives you permission to proceed through an intersection.
So whats the verdict here?
Except there is a rule that says you can't be IN the intersection at the time when the light turns yellow. "Proceed through" means make the turn, not proceed partly through, and then stop.
The other thing I see happen all the time is people do this and then can't complete the turn and then they are left having to try and reverse back behind the line. Reversing on a public road for any purpose besides parking is strictly against the law in the entirety of TX. Again, a guy backed his truck smooth over the front end of my Miata in just such an incident.
Quote from: mr72 on November 30, 2017, 07:02:11 PM
Quote from: Watcher on November 30, 2017, 01:11:13 PM
It's not illegal in Texas. I've talked to a Texan at length about it over the phone and we couldn't find any law that specifically prohibits this behavior, if you can produce a statute I'll concede.
This Texan disagrees, as do all of the "do not block the box" signs posted everywhere that people try to do this. But I don't care enough about what you think about it to go search through the TX Transportation Code, but you are more than welcome to go look.
[snip]
Except there is a rule that says you can't be IN the intersection at the time when the light turns yellow. "Proceed through" means make the turn, not proceed partly through, and then stop.
"Texas Transportation Code - TRANSP § 545.101. Turning at Intersection:
(a) To make a right turn at an intersection, an operator shall make both the approach and the turn as closely as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.
(b) To make a left turn at an intersection, an operator shall:
(1) approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to a vehicle moving in the direction of the vehicle; and
(2) after entering the intersection, turn left, leaving the intersection so as to arrive in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of the vehicle on the roadway being entered.(c) On a street or roadway designated for two-way traffic, the operator turning left shall, to the extent practicable, turn in the portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.
(d) To turn left, an operator who is approaching an intersection having a roadway designated for one-way traffic and for which signs are posted from a roadway designated for one-way traffic and for which signs are posted shall make the turn as closely as practicable to the left-hand curb or edge of the roadway.
(e) The Texas Transportation Commission or a local authority, with respect to a highway in its jurisdiction, may:
(1) authorize the placement of an official traffic-control device in or adjacent to an intersection; and
(2) require a course different from that specified in this section for movement by vehicles turning at an intersection."
"TRANSPORTATION CODE
TITLE 7. VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
SUBTITLE C. RULES OF THE ROAD
CHAPTER 544. TRAFFIC SIGNS, SIGNALS, AND MARKINGS
Sec. 544.007. TRAFFIC-CONTROL SIGNALS IN GENERAL. (a) A traffic-control signal displaying different colored lights or colored lighted arrows successively or in combination may display only green, yellow, or red and applies to operators of vehicles as provided by this section.
(b) An operator of a vehicle facing a circular green signal may proceed straight or turn right or left unless a sign prohibits the turn. The operator shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians lawfully in the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk when the signal is exhibited.
(c) An operator of a vehicle facing a green arrow signal, displayed alone or with another signal, may cautiously enter the intersection to move in the direction permitted by the arrow or other indication shown simultaneously. The operator shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian lawfully in an adjacent crosswalk and other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
(d) An operator of a vehicle facing only a steady red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. A vehicle that is not turning shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown. After stopping, standing until the intersection may be entered safely, and yielding right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully in an adjacent crosswalk and other traffic lawfully using the intersection, the operator may:
(1) turn right; or
(2) turn left, if the intersecting streets are both one-way streets and a left turn is permissible.
(e) An operator of a vehicle facing a steady yellow signal is warned by that signal that:
(1) movement authorized by a green signal is being terminated; or
(2) a red signal is to be given.
(f) The Texas Transportation Commission, a municipal authority, or the commissioners court of a county may prohibit within the entity's jurisdiction a turn by an operator of a vehicle facing a steady red signal by posting notice at the intersection that the turn is prohibited.
(g) This section applies to an official traffic-control signal placed and maintained at a place other than an intersection, except for a provision that by its nature cannot apply. A required stop shall be made at a sign or marking on the pavement indicating where the stop shall be made. In the absence of such a sign or marking, the stop shall be made at the signal.
(h) The obligations imposed by this section apply to an operator of a streetcar in the same manner they apply to the operator of a vehicle.
(i) An operator of a vehicle facing a traffic-control signal, other than a freeway entrance ramp control signal or a pedestrian hybrid beacon, that does not display an indication in any of the signal heads shall stop as provided by Section 544.010 as if the intersection had a stop sign.
(j) In this section:
(1) "Freeway entrance ramp control signal" means a traffic-control signal that controls the flow of traffic entering a freeway.
(2) "Pedestrian hybrid beacon" means a pedestrian-controlled traffic-control signal that displays different colored lights successively only when activated by a pedestrian.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1325, Sec. 19.04, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.
Amended by:
Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 485 (H.B. 885), Sec. 1, eff. June 17, 2011."
Nowhere does it say being in the intersection on yellow is illegal, nor that entering the intersection in anticipation of the turn is illegal, in fact 544.007-(c) seems to support what I think.
Quote from: mr72 on November 30, 2017, 07:02:11 PM
The other thing I see happen all the time is people do this and then can't complete the turn and then they are left having to try and reverse back behind the line. Reversing on a public road for any purpose besides parking is strictly against the law in the entirety of TX. Again, a guy backed his truck smooth over the front end of my Miata in just such an incident.
I'd be lying if I said I never saw this either, but that's simply a case of the driver being clueless. If you've entered the intersection you've started your turn, the only way to exit the intersection is to then complete your turn. This driver should definitely be ticketed.
In the case of oncoming vehicles running the yellow or even the red, and you being stuck "in the box" on the red, since you've begun your maneuver on green you are lawfully permitted to complete it.
Quote from: Watcher on December 01, 2017, 09:21:56 PM
Nowhere does it say being in the intersection on yellow is illegal, nor that entering the intersection in anticipation of the turn is illegal, in fact 544.007-(c) seems to support what I think.
That's because it's assumed you are following the rest of the law at a signal-controlled, intersection, which is that you are to stop on yellow. It's completely assumed in the text you quoted that you are going to proceed into the intersection and complete your turn while the light is green.
I'm reasonably sure if you do this and the car in the oncoming traffic lane who is first to the light stopping on red when you make a turn clearly after the yellow happens to be a cop, at least around here in Cedar Park or in Georgetown or Round Rock or Leander (maybe not in Houston or Dallas or many parts of Austin where cops have much more work to do), you'll get a ticket. You'll get a ticket for running a red light. At the very least a warning.
The police ignore all kinds of traffic infractions all the time, so the fact that people don't routinely get ticketed is hardly a sign that it's been deemed legal. I have been driving with no front license plate for 17+ years now and I've only been even stopped about it one time, but it's still illegal. Maybe someone like you has been merging from the turn lane, making gaps for left-turners in traffic and making left turns on yellow after moving out in front of cross traffic for 17 years without getting a ticket (or a wreck), but that doesn't make it legal :)
My whole argument here is on making a turn after the light has turned yellow or red, which in TX (maybe not where you are), seems to be the primary reason people proceed into the intersection in anticipation of a turn in the first place. If there's obviously going to be a break in traffic big enough to safely make the turn, there's no advantage to creeping into the intersection. But when traffic is standing still and it looks like you might never get a chance to turn left, it's awfully tempting to creep out there and get yourself stuck. Then you are given no choice but to run the yellow light, back up behind the line, or get hit. In whichever case, you cause other drivers to have to accommodate your choice.
I can understand moving forward in order to improve visibility or something like that (even I do that), but not for the purpose of trying to cram yourself through a gap not big enough to make the turn (common here, not saying you do that) or to force everyone to wait for you to finish a turn on a yellow/red light.
Quote from: mr72 on November 30, 2017, 07:02:11 PM
I'd be lying if I said I never saw this either, but that's simply a case of the driver being clueless. If you've entered the intersection you've started your turn, the only way to exit the intersection is to then complete your turn. This driver should definitely be ticketed.
In the case of oncoming vehicles running the yellow or even the red, and you being stuck "in the box" on the red, since you've begun your maneuver on green you are lawfully permitted to complete it.
Maybe in your state, but I see no indication in the TX law (which you quoted) that says that by moving into the box on green you are entitled to run the yellow.
Quote from: mr72 on December 02, 2017, 07:06:21 AM
Maybe in your state, but I see no indication in the TX law (which you quoted) that says that by moving into the box on green you are entitled to run the yellow.
It doesn't say you can't either.
In any case it seems the law is pretty lacking in specifics about this, it may be up to local interpretation, and I'm fine with leaving it at that.
Quote from: Watcher on December 02, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
It doesn't say you can't either.
Sure it does. It just assumes it doesn't have to repeat ordinary well understood laws. It would be notable if this left turn definition invalidated standing law that you can't proceed on a yellow if it is safe to stop. Clearly if you're sitting nearly still when it goes yellow, you can safely stop. And if you do, you block the box. Q.E.D. it's illegal to proceed in a left turn unless you can complete the turn on a green light.
Quote from: mr72 on December 03, 2017, 05:04:13 PM
It would be notable if this left turn definition invalidated standing law that you can't proceed on a yellow if it is safe to stop. Clearly if you're sitting nearly still when it goes yellow, you can safely stop. And if you do, you block the box. Q.E.D. it's illegal to proceed in a left turn unless you can complete the turn on a green light.
Yellow just is an alert of a changing signal. Being in the intersection or proceeding on a yellow isn't any more illegal than doing so on a green light, and while I might agree that safely stopping is the better choice than trying to "beat the red," if you're already in the intersection stopping IS blocking the box so you SHOULD proceed on yellow.
From DMV.org:
"Steady yellow lights signal that the light will turn red soon. So, you must either come to a safe stop before the crosswalk, or, if you can't stop safely, proceed with caution through the intersection before the light turns red."
Boy, we're really splitting hairs here on this subject.
-If you can't safely stop at a yellow BEFORE entering the intersection it's OK to proceed.
-If you are sitting still behind the line and the light turn yellow it's NOT ok to proceed.
-It doesn't matter if the light is green or yellow if you can't complete a turn before it turns red it' s illegal (99.99% of the time you will be at fault if you wind up blocking an intersection on a red signal).
Bottom line- Do not enter an intersection unless you can proceed through when going straight, turning left or right.
I'm as guilty as anyone for making mistakes while riding. And, I do sometimes pull maneuvers I shouldn't to save a few seconds. I try to keep myself in check instead of taking stupid risks especially when I'm on my bike I still get caught up in the rat race. We should all be trying to ride as safely as possible even if it means yielding to other even when we don't have to.
Quote from: Watcher on December 04, 2017, 06:19:25 PM
Being in the intersection or proceeding on a yellow isn't any more illegal than doing so on a green light, and while I might agree that safely stopping is the better choice than trying to "beat the red," if you're already in the intersection stopping IS blocking the box so you SHOULD proceed on yellow.
No, you should NOT proceed even on green until you can complete the turn.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
And BTW anywhere around here, accelerating at a yellow will get you a ticket.
Again, this whole issue resolves itself if the driver doesn't proceed into the intersection until they are ready to complete your turn. The intent of the signal is not and has never been for a driver to fudge into the intersection and then put themselves in the position of either turning on yellow (or red) or blocking the intersection.
Sure, lots of people do this. Lots of people also run red lights, speed up when they turn yellow, rear end other drivers who stop ahead of them (safely) at yellow lights, rear end drivers who don't proceed to turn when they think they should, etc. Lots of drivers are impatient and make risky moves which may or may not be strictly illegal all the time, and just because it's commonplace doesn't make it a good idea, or legal. There's going to be no way to talk you out of your opinion, so do whatever you want. But it's not legal in TX no matter how you try and parse the law.
I've always referred to this as "claiming the intersection," and have never been under the impression that it was illegal. I see it all the time around here. You're not blocking the intersection, because even though you don't have a green left turn arrow, you still have a green light. Of course, as the light changes you have to be aware of oncoming traffic rushing the yellow, but I've never encountered a situation where I've been unable to proceed with my left turn prior to the cross traffic getting their green light.
The only potential problem I can find with this is if you're in the intersection waiting to turn left, and there is traffic backed up on the cross street (occupying the space where you will be turning). If the light changes and you do not have enough space on the cross street to complete your left turn, you could wind up hung out to dry in the middle of the intersection. This is probably the reason it is prohibited in some large cities based on the number of traffic lights in a small stretch of roadway.
@rscottlow
:cheers: