Hey everyone! So I bought a '94 GS for 800 bucks. It didn't start. With a ton of help from the forums, it now starts. Runs relatively well. Still figuring out whether or not it's optimal - really need to go to a shop and have someone who knows bikes take a look at it.
I took the MSF course. Got licensed. Been riding for about a month now. Nearly ate it on a 40 degree day when I turned across a cold metaly manhole and lost traction. Didn't die. Needed new pants. Realized...I kinda suck at riding.
So - what's the best way to properly improve? Practice is great but unguided repitition just leads to bad habits. What would you tell yourself to do if you could go back in time to when you started riding?
You need to take the Advanced Rider Course (ARC). It's run by the MSF, whoever you took the BRC through likely offers it. Should be about $150 (or you may be lucky and find it for free), it lasts one day, it's all on the range, and it WILL make you a more confident and more skilled rider.
Don't let the name scare you, the ARC is not for riders who are highly advanced in their skills, it's meant for a rider who has taken the MSF BRC, has been riding their own bike for a while, already knows the basics, and wants to further their skill set. That being said, it took me 3 years to finally take the ARC and I absolutely learned new things, wish I would have done it much sooner.
As far as armchair skill development goes, find and watch A Twist of the Wrist II. It's often on YouTube, but not often for very long as it's frequently flagged.
If you can make it past the B- rate acting, and focus on the meat and potatoes, the techniques demonstrated are invaluable.
As for slipping on the manhole cover, now you know. All kinds of things that can be ignored in a car have to be avoided on a bike, and that can change with conditions and weather.
Manhole covers, tar-snakes, cracks in the road surface, expansion joints on the interstate, metal grated bridges, cattle-guards, potholes especially. Remember back to the BRC about SEE. Keep scanning, look for hazards and escape paths.
And one of the biggest things about gaining confidence on the street is RELAX! Your mind and eyes should be working much harder than your body, if you're tense on the bike the bike will respond in kind. If you're relaxed on the bike the bike will be smooth.
Out of curiosity, where are you located?
+1 for Twist of the wrist. though I would recommend the first one AS WELL ( not instead). I used to be an adult instructor ( not of motorcycles) , and the " ToW2" may be one of THE best instructional videos I have ever seen.
Again to reinforce Watcher's words, get instruction from REALLY knowledgeable instructors who can actually communicate what you need. Qualifications alone are not enough. To that end, ask around where you are and see if there are recommendations for people that really teach well. Do be afraid to travel for the instruction, especially overnight , as it focuses you attention on the learning experiences if you have no distractions.
Unlearning bad habits is VERY difficult, so you have the right idea. Learn the right way from the start. ( having said that I still disagree completely with whole hand braking).
Have fun and enjoy you bike. It is an easy bike to like.
Quote from: Watcher on May 14, 2018, 08:59:01 PM
You need to take the Advanced Rider Course (ARC).
As far as armchair skill development goes, find and watch A Twist of the Wrist II. It's often on YouTube, but not often for very long as it's frequently flagged.
Remember back to the BRC about SEE. Keep scanning, look for hazards and escape paths.
And one of the biggest things about gaining confidence on the street is RELAX!
Out of curiosity, where are you located?
Thanks for the tips!! First of all, I had no idea they had a class like that!! I looked it up, they don't have any running yet but I'll keep my eyes peeled through the summer. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.
I'll defintely watch those. Having a guide ought to be really handy!
I think relaxing is my big thing right now. I'm tense and almost paranoid. I need to lighten up a bit and just enjoy myself hah.
I'm in Cleveland Ohio, land of salt and snow!
Quote from: gregjet on May 15, 2018, 12:46:14 PM
+1 for Twist of the wrist. though I would recommend the first one AS WELL ( not instead).
Again to reinforce Watcher's words, get instruction from REALLY knowledgeable instructors who can actually communicate what you need.
Unlearning bad habits is VERY difficult, so you have the right idea. Learn the right way from the start. ( having said that I still disagree completely with whole hand braking).
Have fun and enjoy you bike. It is an easy bike to like.
Awesome, I'll watch them both! Any love for the books or are the videos better?
Unfortunately there's only one advanced course running now, so I don't have much pick with instructors. Aside from state courses, does anyone else offer similar programs?
Exactly! I'll do my best, thanks! Also, whole hand braking?
+1 for a Twist of the Wrist II.
I recommend the book so you have time to absorb the information:
http://www.powells.com/book/-9780965045025 (http://www.powells.com/book/-9780965045025)
Quote from: AstroPenguin on May 16, 2018, 05:50:13 PM
Thanks for the tips!! First of all, I had no idea they had a class like that!! I looked it up, they don't have any running yet but I'll keep my eyes peeled through the summer. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.
I forgot to mention the ARC is done on your bike, not a loaner, so the bonding experience is very high. Definitely keep your eyes peeled for class availability. In IL they were free but weren't very common as most riders take the BRC and ignore all other training (shame on them). Every ARC I registered for was cancelled due to low turnout, that's why it took me so long to get in one. Out here in AZ they aren't free, but living next to an Airforce base has it's benefits. The soldiers have to get yearly training to be able to ride on base, and the ARC is the more cost effective and least demanding way to stay current so ARCs are run fairly regularly.
I might suggest looking out of state for a class. U-Haul rents motorcycle trailers for something like $16 a day. If I were you and I could find a class within a few hours drive I'd make it happen.
I think relaxing is my big thing right now. I'm tense and almost paranoid. I need to lighten up a bit and just enjoy myself hah.
ATOTWII covers this a little with the "no body steering bike" in the sense that very little pressure from the hands is needed to steer the bike. In fact, the looser your grip the "lighter" the bike will feel and the more naturally it will track on whatever surface you're riding. Conversely, if you're white-knuckling the bars then the bike will feel "heavy" and hard to steer, you'll feel every stone, bump, crack, etc on the road which will make you feel a little sketchy, and you actively hinder the bike's natural ability to balance and track smoothly. I've been riding for a long time and I ride daily, so it may take you a while to get my level of comfort, but I hardly ever even close my left hand completely on the grip. Right hand has to in order to operate the throttle, left hand just handles steering, clutch work, and lights/horn...
I'm in Cleveland Ohio, land of salt and snow!
I feel for you, man. I'm from Chicago originally but I moved to sunny Arizona a couple of years ago. Best decision I ever made!
Quote from: AstroPenguin on May 16, 2018, 05:56:03 PM
Awesome, I'll watch them both! Any love for the books or are the videos better?
I haven't read the books personally, but I would say they're both good. Only thing is it's probably easier to visualize from the videos, since they actually show you the techniques in action.
Aside from state courses, does anyone else offer similar programs?
Maybe? Do some shopping. Another popular curriculum is "total control", which is taught as the licensing curriculum in California, or look for "bike bonding". I would research the hell out of reviews for any school you are interested in, MSF or otherwise. At least MSF is taught almost on a federal scale and is spot-checked by the MSF, so it's a generally trusted organization. If someone is running MSF curriculum there's pretty much a guarantee that it's quality. Everything else is :dunno_black:
Also, whole hand braking?
Yeah, idk. Maybe he meant 4-finger braking as opposed to just using one or two fingers?
I'll admit to being a little conflicted on this one. I wholeheartedly believe that a new rider will get more control and a better foundation of proper operation with 4-finger braking. That being said, on the street I almost always just use 2-fingers. 2-fingers is more than enough to stop the bike, but since it requires more mechanical effort it needs to be more practiced to be precise.
Sorry to resurrect this. My take on whole hand braking is from several angles.
1. On most people the little(4th) and 3rd finger have next to NO power. That add stuff all to the braking. They are a hnagover from the days of cable brakes which required every ounce of hand power you could muster. Modern brakes will stop a MotoGP bike from 300kph with 2 fingers.
2. Once you have all your fingers off the bars you are now hanging on to the bike with your thumb ( a good strong clamp but relatively insensitive) and nothing else. If you need to control the throttle ( blip, tril etc) you have no counter muscles against the thumb.
3. You are hanging on to the bike on you strongest hand with just your thumb. Hit a pothole and you steering reaction is severely compromised. You cannot steer with the brake lever without serious bad input into the brakes.
4. Your sensitivity for what is happening from the bike inputs ( tyre feel, braking load and slip, suspension) ate now being entirely transmitted through you relatively insensitive thumb in only a semicircle of possible vectors.
I have been 2 finger braking since the days of cable brakes (riding since 1973) and have ONLY ever used 2 fingers. NEVER have a feel for more hand input.
On my mountain bike , the real go is middle finger only ( imporves sensitivity) but never managed less than 2.
Did a ride training day or two , to see if any new stuff had come up and get some track practice. The instructor said " You won't see Rossi using anything other than a whole hand". As I am a big MotoGP watcher I now take special note of how many fingers riders use. Guess what almost all use a combination of 2 or whole hand...including Rossi. The guys that come from dirt bikes almost always use 2 fingers.
There are no rules that say 'you must do it this way'
Just practicel 1,2,3,4 fingers?? You might be 6'2" and have hands like a gorilla or 5'4" and hands like Liberace! Get a feel for the controls and how the bike responds. Gain some confidence, relax and do what you find most comfortable. Same goes for all aspects of control.
Your most important skill to learn above all else is to never stop thinking when you're riding. Look as far ahead as you possibly can, look through the cars windows in front of you to the cars in front of them. Adjust your mirrors so you do not have a blind spot. Always check your mirrors before braking. If you're being tailgated slow down do not speed up. Try and anticipate what people are going to do. Always create space around yourself. In the motorcycle courses you will learn emergency braking procedures which you must keep practicing for the rest of your life or until you sell your bike, which ever comes first.
Quote from: sledge on May 17, 2018, 03:46:12 PM
Just practicel 1,2,3,4 fingers?? You might be 6'2" and have hands like a gorilla or 5'4" and hands like Liberace!
Or hands like mickey mouse, django reinhardt or, heaven forfend, tiny little cocktail sausage fingers like donald trump.
Quote from: gregjet on May 17, 2018, 01:39:53 PM
My take on whole hand braking is from several angles.
1. On most people the little(4th) and 3rd finger have next to NO power.
2. Once you have all your fingers off the bars you are now hanging on to the bike with your thumb ( a good strong clamp but relatively insensitive) and nothing else. If you need to control the throttle ( blip, tril etc) you have no counter muscles against the thumb.
3. You cannot steer with the brake lever without serious bad input into the brakes.
4. Your sensitivity for what is happening from the bike inputs ( tyre feel, braking load and slip, suspension) are now being entirely transmitted through you relatively insensitive thumb in only a semicircle of possible vectors.
1. Those fingers are also operating on the part of the lever with the most mechanical leverage. To say they add no braking force is flat wrong.
2. You shouldn't ever be
hanging onto the bike. The grips/bars are for steering, not hanging onto, your connection to the bike comes from your lower-body. I will concede, though, that you cannot control the throttle with just your thumb. That's why you see racers 2-finger brake. The braking force is sufficient with those amazing race-bike brakes (of which the GS's could only dream of being) and the ring and pinky fingers along with the thumb provide adequate throttle control to blip for downshifting to enter a corner. On the street this technique is subjective. You aren't necessarily blipping down through the gears to come to a straight line stop unless you really feel like it, and you shouldn't be doing this at all for emergency braking, so I'll take the added force and control of all 4 fingers when
stopping. Setting up for a turn, where you need to merely
slow and change gears, 2-fingers and blips all day long. Straight line stopping, 4-fingers is a better technique.
3. You don't
pull to steer. You
press to steer. Pressing is done with your palms. That's like saying you can't steer and control the clutch at the same time without messing up your clutch input, but you do it constantly in low speed maneuvers like u-turns and such. If it can be done with the left hand it can be done with the right, because you steer with your
palms.
4. Once again you're on your palms and your palms translate the "feeling" of the road to you, not your fingers. If you were in a controlled environment where you could lock the throttle open to maintain speed and not have to use the brakes, you could splay your fingers out completely and still have sufficient steering control and feedback from the bars.
To reiterate some things I said earlier, 4-finger braking promotes a better foundation for an inexperienced rider, though I feel like 2-finger braking is sufficient for most scenarios.
Something very glaring that happens to my students early on is the sound of the engine revving up while they are applying the brakes. Sometimes the student is smart and knows the clutch held in won't allow the bike to run away. Sometimes the student freaks out from the unexpected noise and loses control, often times almost crashing.
Always the student was using some braking technique other than 4-fingers. Sometimes they are still gripping with the index and thumb and using the remaining three to brake, sometimes it's a proper 2-finger with the index and middle braking, sometimes it's some wonky technique of the middle and ring fingers braking and the index and pinky still on the grip, or vice versa.
So to train the rider to get a good throttle roll-off when braking we teach a 4-finger braking technique.
2-fingers is an advanced technique. We won't fix what isn't broken if the rider is using 2-fingers but exhibits good control, but if the rider is struggling to brake smoothly and maintain proper throttle control we break them of the habit and work them into 4-fingers only.
AstroPenguin is a self-defined rookie. AstroPenguin should focus on 4-finger braking.
Re: Mountain-Biking. Often you are actually pulling on the handlebars to get the bike's front wheel up to cross obstacles and such, and to reflect this many mountain bikes come with an appropriately sized lever. You're also stopping a vehicle that weighs at most like 30lbs plus the rider. The average motorcycle is, what, like 450lb wet plus the rider? More weight means more braking force is needed.
Re: MotoGP. If the riders used 2-fingers and only 2-fingers then they'd have shorty levers to save the 1/4oz or whatever of weight. Every GP bike I see has a full size clutch and full size brake lever, so clearly it's subjective even on the track.
Some good points Watcher, and the "rev while braking" for beginners point is well taken.
On the leverage on the levers point though, I move my levers in until the area just below the safety ball is where my 2 fingers goes. That gives me bigger leverage AND sensitivity. I also help protect the levers if the bike falls which was the reason I did it originally ( 1973 on dirt bikes) and discovered how much better the braking was. This is especially relevant if you fit shorty levers ( which I do).
I also agree that you should use how ever many fingers, you can get comfortable with. I wasn't suggesting a new dogma of burning heretics that use more than 2.
Still I have had more than one beginner say they felt a lack of confidence when taking all the fingers off the bars.
On mountain bikes you are rarely lifting the front AND applying the brakes. That would be a little counterproductive. And the force required AT THE HAND when braking is not that much more. MTB's have short levers ( nowdays, they didn't used to) but the also have 160mm discs and tiny brake pads. Motorcycle do weight much more than MTB, but have 300mm (and bigger) front discs and 5 or 6 times the braking area per pad. Thay also have a much higher hydraulic lever ratio. There is a sweet spot for controlled braking force by the hand. Above that and the braking feels woody and uncommunicative, below and it feels mushy and grabby. The reason you have to match the lever/mastercyl/slave cyl when sticking brake systems together. Having raced and ridden both MTB and motorcycles I can say the hand feel is pretty similar force/feel wise at the lever. The feel of the whole machine on the other hand is much different.
@Gregjet
I recently got some fold up levers so they don't snap off if the bike falls over, that also have adjustable extensions as well as adjustable lever position. The angular edges feel really nice on the hands too.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Folding-Extendable-Adjustable-Brake-Clutch-Levers-For-Suzuki-GS500-1989-2008/322164096448
Quote from: gregjet on May 18, 2018, 01:31:35 PM
On mountain bikes you are rarely lifting the front AND applying the brakes.
I can recall doing it fairly frequently when riding some downhill sections. Or at the very least transitioning between braking and manipulating the bars so fast it made sense to be covering the brakes while gripping the bars. :dunno_black:
I went for a long ride yesterday and noticed that I use 3 fingers for braking - the middle ones. Just how my reflexes went...it seems to work fine? I'll probably eventually go down to 2 as I get more comfortable.
I did notice however that I was feathering the brakes through turns to maintain speed and course - I've been told "NEVER BRAKE IN TURN U VILL DIE VERY BAD DEATH, YA?" but I notice others do. I mean if you entered a turn too fast and need to slow down, and you're just not comfortable enough to lean to the ground, light front braking is ok, right? Just don't stomp on them?
Speaking of, how do you practice leaning so dang far without a nice clean track to go to? I'd love to do it but I can't help but think of the awful roads I drive on and the gravel/sand/crap that covers them. Maybe I worry too much....idk
Hello, i've got a problem with My new 92 GS, didn't want to make new topic so i ask here.. so when i acclerate hard, it feels like it doesnt get enough fuel, happens at 3-6k rpm, but when it reaches over 6k it runs fine, carbs have been cleaned and rejetted, new airfilter and tank cleaned too, but still does it
Always be careful of absolute advice. Sometimes the absence of the necessary qualifiers make the message less useful.
Interesting you use the middle 3. If it works , it's yours. If you need to move to 2 you probably will, if not it isn't a sin.
NOW braking in turns. This one is tricky. Again I strongly recommend reading/viewing the Twist stuff and a quality track instruction session or two. There are times you can use brakes front, rear, or front AND rear around corners, and there are times it is insane. You need to learn the difference. Experience and good learning is the difference. Remember a motorcycle handling is primarily about maintaing or controlling traction. It all comes down to that. Lots of factors.
MotoGP riders , in the main, though not all, use brakes in corners . Even coming out of corners to control accelleration , though that isn't going to be something the GS500 have trouble with eexcept in marginal grip situations ( see ....qualifiers).
Quote from: Meukowi on May 23, 2018, 01:16:05 PM
didn't want to make new topic so i ask here
Start a new thread, that's what it's for. It's not like you're wasting paper, live a little, be bold. What can go wrong?
Either before or after you do a proper rider training course a good idea is to do a dirt bike training course where you learn to feel the bike sliding or you can fall over without doing any harm. You hire their bikes.
Quote from: gregjet on May 23, 2018, 01:21:46 PM
Always be careful of absolute advice. Sometimes the absence of the necessary qualifiers make the message less useful.
Interesting you use the middle 3. If it works , it's yours. If you need to move to 2 you probably will, if not it isn't a sin.
NOW braking in turns. This one is tricky. Again I strongly recommend reading/viewing the Twist stuff and a quality track instruction session or two. There are times you can use brakes front, rear, or front AND rear around corners, and there are times it is insane. You need to learn the difference. Experience and good learning is the difference. Remember a motorcycle handling is primarily about maintaing or controlling traction. It all comes down to that. Lots of factors.
MotoGP riders , in the main, though not all, use brakes in corners . Even coming out of corners to control accelleration , though that isn't going to be something the GS500 have trouble with eexcept in marginal grip situations ( see ....qualifiers).
Hey, I'm unique! Yay!
Ok, excellent reply, thank you! Well I'll start with the videos and the reading, and go from there. I'd love to do a track instruction day, I'll have to find out about that in my area. And awesome! I'll just try to edumacate myself as much as possible before I do anything wild in the curvies.
And the GS500 continues to be lauded for excellent handlin! Is that something the bike is "good" at, or is the handling on it genuinely really really good? I'm curious because people keep saying it's one of the best rides they've had, and yet I feel like outside of the Suzuki community, this bike is unknown. No one recognizes it on the street when I ride.
And does that maneuverability extend to the SV650 as well?
I think the biggest praise of the GSs handling, and much of the bike in general, is that it's surprising for what you pay.
I remember my GS being a pretty good feeling bike. I think Suzuki simply "got it right".
It is notoriously undersprung, but other than that I think the chassis and riding geometry was well done.
It's not the best out there, and far from today's standards, but still an excellent machine.
Re: the SV, it's one of the most popular track bikes out there, partly for it's affordability, but due in no small part to it's manageable engine characteristics and decent handling.
After sorting out the frontend somewhat, below 80, I feel it handles better than my 06 GSXR600. Just feels lighter, flickable, stable.