Can anyone help me identify this noise? And how bad it is? It really freaked me out when I got home from a ride :icon_eek:
The bike has 23,000 miles on it if that is a factor at all.
Video: https://youtu.be/-XD5Av2ejFg
I didn't look at your video, but it's probably a valve clearance issue. Mine bike does it all the time, well not all the time because im constantly re shimming the valves. Check you clearances.
Doesn't sound like routine service, that I can tell you.
Quote from: crackin on July 17, 2018, 05:32:14 AM
I didn't look at your video, but it's probably a valve clearance issue. Mine bike does it all the time, well not all the time because im constantly re shimming the valves. Check you clearances.
I don't get a big 'loose valve' type feeling from this, unless the valve clearance is a few centimetres or something - it's too loud and heavy. Sad to say it but it sounds like engine rebuild material to me. Hopefully someone with much more experience than me has a more optimistic opinion.
I have some top-end ticking on mine which I suspect is either cam chain or the valves on the looser end of the spec, and it's not nearly this loud or this metallic. It also doesn't get louder with RPM like this does.
Oh man, I really hope the engine isn't on its way out. I just got the bike last season and I absolutely love it. But I don't feel capable of rebuilding an engine and I'm not sure if it's worth having it rebuilt by a shop.
Okay, so I did some tests today and it makes the noise whether the engine is cold or warm. I put a screwdriver to my ear and poked around but I get the same noise at the head and at the clutch cover/pickup cover so I don't know where it's coming from. By ear it sounds like it's near the head, actually closer to where the carbs are but I'm not 100% sure because I don't hear the noise when I stick the screwdriver on the carbs. It doesn't seem to be as prominent on the crank case side (left side). Should I try doing a valve adjustment and see it that fixes it? I don't think the valves have ever been adjusted anyways.
Yes check the valve clearances, you've got nothing to loose. Also check the cams for damage and the timing chain for excessive slack.
Still haven't seen the vid, but I will check it later today.
yep, can't hurt.
That sounds positively unhealthy.
I wouldn't be thinking cams unless a cam journal has cracked.
Sounds to me like it's bottom end.
Don't be too intimidated by a rebuild, but if it comes down to it a donor engine isn't that hard to find.
It's easy to make guesses but it's very difficult to accurately diagnose faults in this manner.
What's the back story?
Has it just started or gradually developed?
Have you been been on a long run and run low on oil?
I looked at the video and it does sound bad but I not sure its the bottom end. Until the valve cover is pulled and everything checked out it is hard to say. The bottom ends on these engines are pretty strong unless they are run with no oil.
Quote from: sledge on July 19, 2018, 01:32:20 AM
It's easy to make guesses but it's very difficult to accurately diagnose faults in this manner.
What's the back story?
Has it just started or gradually developed?
Have you been been on a long run and run low on oil?
It has been running great since I got it last year. I just noticed this noise when I was riding the other day. It may have been there for awhile but just got bad enough that I could hear it clearly but I can't be sure. It still seemed to run just fine though. I check the oil every time I get gas (I let it cool down first, obviously). I've never run it low on oil and the oil still looks new
Quote from: mrdrprof on July 19, 2018, 05:17:43 PM
Quote from: sledge on July 19, 2018, 01:32:20 AM
It's easy to make guesses but it's very difficult to accurately diagnose faults in this manner.
What's the back story?
Has it just started or gradually developed?
Have you been been on a long run and run low on oil?
It has been running great since I got it last year. I just noticed this noise when I was riding the other day. It may have been there for awhile but just got bad enough that I could hear it clearly but I can't be sure. It still seemed to run just fine though. I check the oil every time I get gas (I let it cool down first, obviously). I've never run it low on oil and the oil still looks new
Old filter? An old, high-mileage filter could leave you with poor oil flow despite plenty in the sump. A real risk I would imagine if a PO who owned it for a long time decided to only ever change the oil and not the filter.
The seller told me the oil and filter were changed about 500 miles ago when I bought it, so it probably has about 1100 miles on it now so I don't think that's the issue. Though I guess he could've lied to me but that seems like a weird thing to lie about
Loads of possibilities, really. Probably a PO didn't treat it too well. Ragging it whilst cold, low quality oil, both, neither. Dunno.
I ran the bike again for a little and I made it idle pretty low to hear the sound better and it definitely sounds like it's in the bottom end, on the clutch side around where the clutch assembly is. That doesn't make me too optimistic. :icon_eek:
You need to stop running the bike and start pulling down.
I have seen in the past where a pressure plate bolt has backed out and hits the side cover, it could be as simple as that. You won't know until you start looking.
Do a search "loose starter clutch"
Okay so I just adjusted the valves. The left exhaust was less than the minimum spec (.03 mm), so I was hoping it would be that. But no luck there :( . Now that I have the tank off I can get a better listen and it sounds like it's in the top end. Kind of sounds like it's where the carburetors are but it's really hard to tell. Different spots give me the same sort of sound. Maybe I need to sync the carbs. I already have the tank off so that should be an easy 5 minute job. I have heard that the starter clutch bolt likes to come loose and make noise on these bikes so I will also look into that if syncing the carbs doesn't help. The PO said he replaced the clutch plates not too long before I bought the bike so it could be possible something came loose in there. I will look into that as well.
if its lower end, it will sound funny when riding the bike. like it will come an go depending on RPM. like it will start to make "the noise" when the engine is under load, but when you get to RPM steady, it will seemingly "go away" this is the "pre-warning" for spitting out a babbit bearing of some sort.
sounds like upper end to me, like its slapping, me thinks loose tolerances. cam chain is more of a slap sound, and it comes mainly from the front of the engine more, because the cam chain guide clips in towards the back of the engine [near the carbs]
Also you know when the cam chain skips a tooth or two...... :icon_mrgreen: things run into each other...
Quote from: J_Walker on July 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
if its lower end, it will sound funny when riding the bike. like it will come an go depending on RPM. like it will start to make "the noise" when the engine is under load, but when you get to RPM steady, it will seemingly "go away" this is the "pre-warning" for spitting out a babbit bearing of some sort.
sounds like upper end to me, like its slapping, me thinks loose tolerances. cam chain is more of a slap sound, and it comes mainly from the front of the engine more, because the cam chain guide clips in towards the back of the engine [near the carbs]
Also you know when the cam chain skips a tooth or two...... :icon_mrgreen: things run into each other...
Interesting. I don't remember hearing it when I was riding. Only when stopped. I checked the cams and everything while I was adjusting my valves and nothing was loose. I completely forgot to check the cam chain tensioner but I will do that tomorrow. Is it possible to get to it without taking the carbs off?
Update: I think I might be getting somewhere. I took the cam chain tensioner off and it was stuck in one position. I tapped it a few times and it sprung back out. I'm not sure how strong the spring is supposed to be but it feels like it doesn't want to spring out. It feels very weak and a little sticky. Is there any way to fix it or should I just buy a new one?
Replace it or switch to a manual CCT
Quote from: Bluesmudge on July 27, 2018, 05:31:58 PM
Replace it or switch to a manual CCT
I will probably get a manual one since they are cheaper and I've read that the OEM auto ones aren't very good. But the problem is I can't find any for a gs500f except for eBay. Would an eBay one be fine? I mean it's just a bolt with a jam nut, right? I would like to get a reputable one though
Quote from: mrdrprof on July 28, 2018, 09:38:40 AM
Quote from: Bluesmudge on July 27, 2018, 05:31:58 PM
Replace it or switch to a manual CCT
I will probably get a manual one since they are cheaper and I've read that the OEM auto ones aren't very good. But the problem is I can't find any for a gs500f except for eBay. Would an eBay one be fine? I mean it's just a bolt with a jam nut, right? I would like to get a reputable one though
I doubt there's anything that bad about the OEM tensioners. Sure some fail occasionally and leave a bitter taste in the mouth of whoever they fail on, but I bet the majority of them are perfectly fine for dozens of thousands of miles.
Quote from: Kookas on July 28, 2018, 10:47:01 AM
Quote from: mrdrprof on July 28, 2018, 09:38:40 AM
I will probably get a manual one since they are cheaper and I've read that the OEM auto ones aren't very good. But the problem is I can't find any for a gs500f except for eBay. Would an eBay one be fine? I mean it's just a bolt with a jam nut, right? I would like to get a reputable one though
I doubt there's anything that bad about the OEM tensioners. Sure some fail occasionally and leave a bitter taste in the mouth of whoever they fail on, but I bet the majority of them are perfectly fine for dozens of thousands of miles.
Oh okay. I will probably get a manual one anyways just because they're cheaper
I'm happy to hear your making some progress.
Make your self a "manometer" if you dont all ready have one, and balance the carbs.
GS's will get "cam chain shimmy" if the carbs are out of balance.
Quote from: crackin on July 28, 2018, 04:58:29 PM
I'm happy to hear your making some progress.
Make your self a "manometer" if you dont all ready have one, and balance the carbs.
GS's will get "cam chain shimmy" if the carbs are out of balance.
my man-o-meter has been off lately... can't tell who's what anymore... :icon_rolleyes:
Well, the new tensioner seemed to help a little, but that might just be me. But when I was setting the tension (I got a manual tensioner), I noticed there was a spot where it seemed to have good tension , about 6mm, and another spot where it was not as tight, about 9-10mm. Is this a sign that my cam chain is worn out?
That may be, however the cam chain is fully soaked in oil and has no exposure to the elements, which is what kills a chain, lack of lube and elements as well as loads - which in a cam chain isn't much but it is a small chain, but, the load is even smaller.
I would try to run the chain and see if the noise persists. When the one and only time my CCT went, the cam chain made a sort of tapping sound, not quite ticking.
A lower end bearing that is starting to go would make a sound under steady or even trailing throttle but quieten up in open throttle. Of course it also would not even make it 1/2 hr before it makes a banging sound all around and gives up.
Cool.
Buddha.
You need to check the starter clutch. The bolts holding it are prone to loosening off. It is a common problem that has been mentioned in this forum many times.
Another common problem with the GS is, the cam chain will stretch in some place's more than other's.
My chain has been replaced with one off a honda, that has a rivet joint. No need to split the casings.
I will check my receipts and or talk to my mechanic to see what honda cam chain he used.
Yeah, I've heard about the starter clutch coming loose on these bikes. What do I need to check in there?
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=62379.msg728346#msg728346
I suggest you check it out sooner rather than latter. You DON'T want the bolts to shear.
So while I was trying to sync the carbs, the bike kept dying and each time I started it it would struggle more and more and now it will just crank but won't start. I tried:
Charging the battery
Bench syncing the carbs
Swapping spark plugs out for my old ones that are still in okay condition
Checking for spark
Putting fresh gas into the carbs
So maybe the starter clutch was loose and got loose enough to where it will crank but won't start? I will have to pull the cover off and check it.
Quote from: mrdrprof on July 31, 2018, 04:12:00 PM
So while I was trying to sync the carbs, the bike kept dying and each time I started it it would struggle more and more and now it will just crank but won't start. I tried:
Charging the battery
Bench syncing the carbs
Swapping spark plugs out for my old ones that are still in okay condition
Checking for spark
Putting fresh gas into the carbs
So maybe the starter clutch was loose and got loose enough to where it will crank but won't start? I will have to pull the cover off and check it.
Update: I guess the gas I used was bad because the Jets were clogged :icon_lol:
But I pulled the crank case cover off and nothing seemed loose. So that possibility is checked off. I took off the little cover on the clutch side for the spark generator and it looks like it wobbles more that it should. I compared it to my brother's GS and his doesn't wobble as much. What does this mean?
Video: https://youtu.be/Ev4OEpcZeeE
What? What the f%$k do you mean it wobbles? That shaZam! ain't sposed to wobble.
Quote from: crackin on August 02, 2018, 06:28:36 AM
What? What the f%$k do you mean it wobbles? That shaZam! ain't sposed to wobble.
It doesn't spin straight. Watch the video.
I'm so lost on this. After some really close listening it sounds like it's either where the clutch assembly is or in the top end. It's hard to narrow it down. I hear a more "clicky" noise from the clutch area and more of a general knock from the top end.
I think I found the problem... I'm not sure if this bolt is supposed to move up and down like it does. What is this?
https://imgur.com/a/nVt3ELQ
Quote from: mrdrprof on August 03, 2018, 03:42:24 PM
I think I found the problem... I'm not sure if this bolt is supposed to move up and down like it does. What is this?
https://imgur.com/a/nVt3ELQ
I've never been deep enough into the engine to know but from the nut and plate I think that's the end of the counterbalancer. It has weights on it, spins counter to the crankshaft and serves to reduce vibration. I would
assume that there shouldn't be any free-play in it at all, being a core reciprocating component and all.
(http://www.gstwin.com/images/recercorner/newrac45.jpg)
There must be a bearing right behind that shaft where the counterbalancer spins in the case, which may have disintegrated if there's up/down play, but this is just my guess.
Quote from: Kookas on August 03, 2018, 04:17:14 PM
Quote from: mrdrprof on August 03, 2018, 03:42:24 PM
I think I found the problem... I'm not sure if this bolt is supposed to move up and down like it does. What is this?
https://imgur.com/a/nVt3ELQ
I've never been deep enough into the engine to know but from the nut and plate I think that's the end of the counterbalancer. It has weights on it, spins counter to the crankshaft and serves to reduce vibration. I would assume that there shouldn't be any free-play in it at all, being a core reciprocating component and all.
(http://www.gstwin.com/images/recercorner/newrac45.jpg)
There must be a bearing right behind that shaft where the counterbalancer spins in the case, which may have disintegrated if there's up/down play, but this is just my guess.
Ah crap. I'm gonna guess I need to take the whole engine apart to get to it? I might have a shop fix it because I don't have the space to tear an engine down.
I can't answer whether you'd have to split the cases to remove that bearing - is it possible it could be slid out after removing the nut and washer?
That said, you might want to just to know if there's any other damage.
Does it sound/move like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atq4nKfh7kg
Found this video in this thread.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=61017.0
Although actually, I'm wondering about the journal on that counterbalancer - I think unfortunately yeah you'll want to split the case and pull the whole shaft because there's a good chance of journal damage from the engine running with the damaged/missing bearings.
Quote from: Kookas on August 03, 2018, 05:03:33 PM
I can't answer whether you'd have to split the cases to remove that bearing - is it possible it could be slid out after removing the nut and washer?
That said, you might want to just to know if there's any other damage.
Does it sound/move like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atq4nKfh7kg
Found this video in this thread.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=61017.0
Although actually, I'm wondering about the journal on that counterbalancer - I think unfortunately yeah you'll want to split the case and pull the whole shaft because there's a good chance of journal damage from the engine running with the damaged/missing bearings.
Yeah, it moves like in that video and makes a similar sound. I had a rattle every now and then when I would be riding but I thought it was just a part of the fairings vibrating. I guess I was wrong.
I don't see any metal flakes or anything in the oil. It looks like normal used oil so I guess I have that going for me :icon_lol:
Here's what it looks like without the bolt and washer https://imgur.com/a/S0uxTJ5
Quote from: mrdrprof on August 03, 2018, 05:58:47 PM
Here's what it looks like without the bolt and washer https://imgur.com/a/S0uxTJ5
https://s19.postimg.cc/9aaz10x6b/this.png
blue is the bearing, notice the bottom half is GONE. while the top halve is thick. lets hope that there is even a thin slice of bearing left under there
also when you drain the oil the oil flakes won't float out with the oil. the oil pan acts sorta like a sluice catching the metal particles. take off oil pan and you will see a whole bunch of them.
The red is where the counter balancer has lost its temper. and probably should be swapped.
no the bearing cannot be removed with engine intact, yes the halves can be split apart without taking off the top-end.
https://www.ebay.com/i/401397265663?chn=ps - counter balancer.
you're going to need FOUR of the bearings, when you order them its going to be according to the number on the engine case and counter balancer. and can't order them until you get the replacement balancer.
So... find a 2nd hand engine :2guns:
Whowah.......no doubt about that, the bearing is toast!!
You need to check the diameter and concentricty of the balance shaft bearing journals first.
If they are out of spec', scored, or oval it's pointless replacing the bearings :dunno_black:
31.984mm to 32.000mm is the tolerance and you need an oil clearance between 0.02 and 0.044mm. (figures from the service manual)
If you do remove the balance shaft it's VITAL it goes back correctly meshed with the crank. There are two dimples, one on each gear that must align with each other.
You also need to ask why it's failed, possibly a blocked oil gallery