Hey Guys,
I am about to open my engine to inspect my clutch, howerver I would like to have some hints when I get there.
I confess I abuse my bike.... as a naughty girl that she is.... she is always having a good time.
Lately she started to slip when cluthless shifting.. (3 points adjust already done)
More strange than this is the non continuous behavior of the clutch when riding... yesterday In traffic,, suddenly O could not engage neutral anymore.. The gears were loaded.. and it was going from 1 to 2 directly.
My bike is second hand... and I truly believe that the previous owner have installed a shitttty clutch .. I took her with 46000km
Since the begining it always felt very ginger... not linear at all.. she suddenly grab the disk.. and shake a little bit.
I am buying a Vesrah VC 333 set
Any suggestions or ideas?
Sorry for the posting .. the problem is kind of difficult to explain...
my clutch slips on quick shifts when you get back on the throttle quickly, particularly when shifting at higher revs. My bike has similar age as yours (about 40k km/25k miles). no doubt it's the original clutch.
I'm going to follow this thread and see if a new clutch fixes it for you. In the meantime, with my normal leisurely way of riding, I could probably go another 25K on this clutch.
I would also check your oil level and make sure its not overfilled just in case. Too much oil can make finding neutral hard, but I don't know if it would cause any other symptoms you describe. Probably wont be the cause, but it's easy enough to check and fix if it is. To be honest, if you've already done a 3 point clutch adjustment, then a new clutch is probably what you'll need IMO.
Clutchless shifting can wear and stress the clutch more than normal shifting. Fine on the track where longevity is not an issue, but in normal road use it's a different matter. You are also stressing various other components in the drivetrain when you do it
Ever see or hear a manufacturer advocating the practise with their OEM clutches?
Take the pack out, the plates on the outside will be worn more than those on the inside, the ones on the inside may even be stuck together, mix them around before you put everything back and you might see an improvement.
How does clutchless upshifting stress the clutch? I could see maybe the transmission itself if you do it wrong, but if the clutch is never disengaged, how does it get worn? Not trying to argue with you, just trying to understand.
If the engine speed does not exactly match the transmission speed at the time of shifting the clutch is forced into slipping until the speeds do match. If it didn't the rear wheel would hop. Considering the relative speeds involved it is impossible to accurately match them, There will always be a difference.
People say they can smoothly shift without the clutch, in actual fact its the slipping of the clutch that makes it smooth.
It's a similar effect to push/bump starting only not as severe. You get that jolt as the speeds match up
Ridges on the edges of the basket slots are another fault condition caused by clutchless shifting. The ridges make it difficult for the plates to float in the basket making the action erratic. The more I think about this the more I think this could be part of the OPs issue :dunno_black:
I can't imagine why anyone would want to do this :cookoo:
(https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=OrXwAWJX&id=9BD4D2EF16B73EFE7F59D10CAB00FFA228752883&thid=OIP.OrXwAWJXS5_dKgIKHgXlQwHaFj&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fi.ebayimg.com%2fimages%2fi%2f230867434463-0-1%2fs-l1000.jpg&exph=750&expw=1000&q=worn+motorcycle+clutch+basket&simid=608049234236147567&selectedIndex=11)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=worn+motorcycle+clutch+basket&FORM=HDRSC2
I felt that clutch refined info is difficult to get online.
Tires, brake pads, oil.... for these technical info and more available.
For instance, what happens with the clutch behavior if you overheat it, or even cook it.
Also differences on material performances (fibrous or cork) etc...
Sledge.. this image that you linked ... is interesting...
(http://images.solomotoparts.com/images/bustersdirtshop/detailed/d_8907.jpg)
(you always use BLING as a search tool? man this is not healthy)
If you ride maintain and treat your bike sensibly there is no reason why you should have any problems with it.
If you abuse, neglect or treat it in a way it's not be designed to be treated it stands to reason it will give you issues. The gs5 is not a bike that is intended or designed to accommodate prolonged periods of clutchless shifting in stock condition..........it's As simple as that :dunno_black:
:angel:
Quote from: sledge on July 27, 2018, 03:25:23 PM
If the engine speed does not exactly match the transmission speed at the time of shifting the clutch is forced into slipping until the speeds do match.
Well, you slip the clutch manually when you shift properly, so wouldn't the clutch wear the same (or even less) when it's engaged the whole time?
You also have the cush-drive on the rear sprocket to keep the rear wheel from hopping on a rough shift, too, so it's not all clutch.
Anyway, I'll agree that clutchless shifting can be somewhat hazardous. I don't think it causes any extravagant wear to the transmission, unless you flat out suck at it, but I do think it's more abusive to the chain/driveline.
I believe the difference is in the way the load is applied through the clutch. Shift with the clutch and it's a smooth progressive and controlled action in a way the drivetrain is designed to accommodate. Shift without the clutch and it's basically a shock load to system with the clutch being the weak point on the basis of it being a wear part. Ok once in a while but continually?......... Nah.
As for clutches shifting not presenting the potential for serious damage........tell this guy!!
https://www.kawiforums.com/zx-10r/199298-clutchless-shifting-2.html#/topics/199298?page=2
I see an underlying and somewhat dangerous mood in this forum sometimes. The words "I have been doing it for years and never had a problem so you will be fine" or " I can't see what the issue is therefore there isn't one" are the basis of it. Also The tendency for people to focus more on who is doing the talking rather than what is being said. As a result of my experiences both as a motorcyclist and gained through my career in engineering. I don't subscribe to either.
End of the day its Your bike, it's your wellbeing........and it's your choice :thumb:
For the record I don't think clutchless shifting is faster and it's definitely not smoother, so I rarely if ever do it.
Racers don't do it either (quick-shifter is a different story).
But I've heard so many conflicting stories of whether it's bad or not...
I would like to know some concrete evidence one way or the other.
Seems to me like I said, that it can cause undue wear to some components but outright won't explode your trans unless you just jam it in gear all haphazardly, which is probably what happened to Mr ZX10R over there.
At the end of the day I rely on my bike too much to mistreat it, even hypothetically, so my conversation is just that.
with clutchless shifting aren't you suppose to pressure on the shift lever, then close the throttle? Basically Rev matching the gears?
I see plenty of unsubstantiated BS on the subject in numerous bike forums but I don't see any of the bike manufacturers advocating the practice, or standing up and saying their products will tolerate it indefinitely.
on that basis........how concrete do you want it?
Use the clutch/gearbox in the way it has been designed to and it is unlikely to cause problems. Use it in a way that it has not been designed to and like every piece of mechanical equipment under the sun, it might cause problems. It seems a simple and sensible enough concept to me :dunno_black:
Like I said......your bike, your choice :dunno_black:
Quote from: Watcher on July 29, 2018, 09:04:04 AM
For the record I don't think clutchless shifting is faster and it's definitely not smoother, so I rarely if ever do it.
Racers don't do it either (quick-shifter is a different story).
Quick shifter and clutchless shifting is exactly the same.... The only difference is in the first electronics cut the ignition to relief forces at the gearing, and in the other you perform the same unrolling the throttle for a moment. So if one is safe the other is also.. or none are. And YES... roadracers used to use cluthless shifting as standard ( of course not all of them), until the quickshiter invention.
Sledge....I saw the photos.. that you have linked.. this pictures are all over the internet.. however I not found the whole scenario of the fail.
This was just clutchless shifting? Do you have the address where the person describe all the history?
MAybe I will make extra work and disassembly my gear.. and have a look...(hope that can assembly all together, and not end with lefting parts and screws.. lol.
I am doing it for 10.000Km till now... not a problem yet....let me stress that YET.
Today I saw by coincidence a video by Kevin Cameron from Cycle world... there was a point that he assume that might be maintenance .. but he does not tell that is a hell of a problem....
https://youtu.be/-nZjbMyIo8I?t=5m54s
Differently of he suggests I never clutchless shift from the firts to second.. this is very tricky... but for higher gears can indeed be smooth as when using the clutch.
Quote from: Kito on July 29, 2018, 02:07:22 PM
Quote from: Watcher on July 29, 2018, 09:04:04 AM
For the record I don't think clutchless shifting is faster and it's definitely not smoother, so I rarely if ever do it.
Racers don't do it either (quick-shifter is a different story).
Quick shifter and clutchless shifting is exactly the same.... The only difference is in the first electronics cut the ignition to relief forces at the gearing, and in the other you perform the same unrolling the throttle for a moment. So if one is safe the other is also.. or none are. And YES... roadracers used to use cluthless shifting as standard ( of course not all of them), until the quickshiter invention.
You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window. I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.
I'm also currently in the camp that a clutchless shift is only really a problem when done
incorrectly, but the rate of human error is quite high making the clutch itself a more or less vital tool in compensating for a lack in precision.
Quickshifters don't make mistakes, and quickshifters can shift a bike in something like 50m/s, WAY faster than any human can manipulate the controls. So if you have a quickshifter then cool. If you don't then, well, don't.
Also, somewhere on the WWW is a clutch-cam video/GIF of a high level racer rapidly using the clutch for shifting. I guess if there's one true statement it's that not all racers use quickshifters and of the ones that don't not all shift without the clutch...
Kito?
So you are a cynical? Well that works both ways.
Forget all about what you have seen and read elsewhere and instead ask yourself a question.
Can the GS500 deal with indefinite clutchless changes without compromising reliability or the risk of damage.
Come back to us when you have the definitive answer AND can back it up with indisputable evidence........I won't be holding my breath in the meantime :D
Sledge, sorry if you took me wrong, really.
I thought that maybe you could have the original link of that post... or maybe the complete history of that photos.
However do not call me cynical for not believe in any post on the internet...
As everybody knows.. check info is mandatory nowadays.
I am not being cynical.. I am being prudent.
have there indeed evidences of messed up shifting.. but man... that transmission is completely destroyed...
So.. if the damages were done along the time... how could the transmission work so long to have that much damages?
The other possibility would be all that damage been caused at once.... improbable.. clutchless shifting, even when not done properly.. is not that harsh...
When missing a gear in forth, by instance.. and you reshift. I feel a clunk uglier than CS.
I am not saying that is impossible... but without any words of the guy that took the photos... is a tough call.
What could be happened was that a broken tooth locked the gearing.. and then the dogs were damage... maybe.
Or a faulty bearing (no relation with the shifting style).
We are debating ideas here...
I just asked for the source of your information... this is not a reason to be offended. Sorry if you did, however that photos without a complete history are useless (I know that you know a lot of mechanics... you need to agree with me).
"Can the GS500 deal with indefinite clutchless changes without compromising reliability or the risk of damage."
Certainly not..I do not intend that my gs lasts forever.... I am ok with that.
By the way.. the thread have changed the main subject...
What I really need help, is to understand clutch disks worn and its behaviour during these process.
Quote from: sledge on July 29, 2018, 01:53:15 AM
I believe the difference is in the way the load is applied through the clutch. Shift with the clutch and it's a smooth progressive and controlled action in a way the drivetrain is designed to accommodate. Shift without the clutch and it's basically a shock load to system with the clutch being the weak point on the basis of it being a wear part. Ok once in a while but continually?......... Nah.
As for clutches shifting not presenting the potential for serious damage........tell this guy!!
https://www.kawiforums.com/zx-10r/199298-clutchless-shifting-2.html#/topics/199298?page=2
...
1.) I guess I get what you're saying about it being a shock load and it not being what it's designed for and all that. I wish there were some empirical data on the subject. Seems to me that the better you are at it, the fewer ill effects it would have. I'd say that if done perfectly precisely (basically impossible for a human), it would cause no wear. The further out you get from perfect, the more wear it would cause.
2.) Not gonna lie, I simply do not believe that the transmission in that thread was that destroyed simply by clutchless upshifting. Unless the dude redlined in neutral and then tried to pop the bike into 1st or something, which seems incredibly unlikely. I'd need a lot more info about the bike and how it was treated before I could possibly even begin to speculate about what happened to it.
Quote from: Watcher on July 29, 2018, 09:04:04 AM
For the record I don't think clutchless shifting is faster and it's definitely not smoother, so I rarely if ever do it.
Racers don't do it either (quick-shifter is a different story).
I would think it's "faster" since it saves you the couple of milliseconds you would otherwise use to pull the clutch in and out. Sort of irrelevant for street riding, but might be relevant while racing.
"Smoother" is a bit more nebulous though, don't you think? I think the "smoothness" of the shift depends on how well its executed and how fast you're going. On my ride in to work this morning, I did clutchless upshifts from 2nd to 6th staying really high in the rev range and it felt really smooth. I'd say smoother than if I had used the clutch. But, if I hadn't been basically trying to accelerate as fast as possible, would it have felt as smooth? Probably not. Personally I'd say it CAN be smoother, but not always.
As for racers doing it, I've heard some people say they do, some people say they don't. Probably more down to individual style/situation than anything else.
Quote from: Watcher on July 29, 2018, 07:31:22 PM
You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window. I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.
I don't disagree that throttle control is a very important part of shifting, but I don't really see how it wouldn't be faster to eliminate one step of the process. The time you spend operating the clutch is eliminated, therefore the shift is completed ever so slightly faster. At the very least, that's how it feels when I do it. Maybe my clutch hand is just slower than yours, but it definitely feels faster/smoother to me lol.
Quote
I'm also currently in the camp that a clutchless shift is only really a problem when done incorrectly, but the rate of human error is quite high making the clutch itself a more or less vital tool in compensating for a lack in precision.
I can agree with that.
Quote
Also, somewhere on the WWW is a clutch-cam video/GIF of a high level racer rapidly using the clutch for shifting. I guess if there's one true statement it's that not all racers use quickshifters and of the ones that don't not all shift without the clutch...
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an "advanced" technique that 100% of racers use 100% of the time. To me, clutchless upshifts are just another tool in the toolbox of riding techniques. If you absolutely must shave .001 seconds off your shift time (or just want to have some fun lol) and your bike is not equipped with a quickshifter, it's the right tool for the job.
I can quite easily believe it happened.
When something breaks inside a gearbox ie a tooth comes off a gear or the end breaks off a selector fork what do you think is going to happen to that part?
Remember.....It's in an enclosed space along with a number of closely mating parts spinning at thousands of rpm and full of momentum :D
OK, even not completely recovered from a virose, and still having a mild fever... I pulled out the clutch cover to inspect the system. ( this is also a kind of illness.. mental one.. lol... however I could not wait)
The springs were well above the limit = 64mm
The clutch disks thickness = 2.95(2) respecting the specs
The metals disks were ok, not warped at all.. subtle signs of wear, nothing that scary.
But the problem was that the clutch material was kind of flaking off.
(one time I had a blast with the bike with the oil level really low.... I believe this was the "ground Shihttt zero"
when I screw off the oil stick... smoke went out of the case)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V_LG2uNughM/W19pT5QAIcI/AAAAAAAARyI/YYmhZMtYVeQJ7yv1Suzr4kh-3XpZEBi-gCL0BGAs/w398-d-h530-n-rw/20180730_150251.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bql5Mips7Yk/W19pT2SmyeI/AAAAAAAARyQ/pUDBPs0iLWAyEAOaX7foLBJVBUloAuVtwCJoC/w398-h530-n-rw/20180730_150243.JPG)
I found a pretty precise explanation at quora thats really describe all the scenario
"The standard material on most Japanese and some late Model European Motorcycles with wet clutches is a rubber impregnated cork (co efficient of about 0.03). This rubber impregnated cork material does not grip well (low Coefficient) and slips so it is prone to glazing. Once glazed, it will continue to slip until the Clutch Plates are replaced. This slipping may not be noticable and yet it will cause excess heat which can cause damage. Unfortunately, Cork is not known to handle heat well and the cork may de-laminate from the plate it is bonded to. Heat may also cause hot spots and warping of the intermediate (steel drive plates). Not to mention the damage the heat does to the oil the clutch, gearbox and Motor runs in.
The bottom line is this; Rubber impregnated cork is not the best material to use, it does not grip well, it does not last, it does not offer optimum performance. It is a compromise material and when Original Plates require replacing far superior materials are available."
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-materials-used-for-making-motorcycle-Clutch-plate
Now I will buy new disks, new oil filter... and new oil...
Quote from: Watcher on July 29, 2018, 07:31:22 PM
You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window. I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it's the other way around for me. I feel like the bite 'window' is way too long, too much travel for me to be able to do it as smoothly as I'd like.
Quote from: Kookas on July 30, 2018, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: Watcher on July 29, 2018, 07:31:22 PM
You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window. I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it's the other way around for me. I feel like the bite 'window' is way too long, too much travel for me to be able to do it as smoothly as I'd like.
I really should remake this video. Now that I have an exhaust you can actually hear you can tell what RPM range I'm in a little easier, and I should plan it out a little better so my explanations aren't so rambly and spontaneous. I'm also planning on getting more cameras, so maybe I can get multiple angles. Hopefully both a clutch-cam and a shifter-cam.