Hello gents.
Wanna write about my experiences with EBC brake pads.
I have installed EBC organic brake pads to my GS500 at 32000 km's.
This guy right here;
(https://i0.shbdn.com/photos/50/42/98/x5_6005042985i9.jpg)
So, braking performance was ok but when i came to 35500 i have noticed a squek at my front caliper.
(i drive quite aggressive on street and use a LOT of front braking)
TAADAAA. Brake pads are done.
Since its a quite heavy bike, organic pads are not my best recommendation.
After that, i have installed EBC sintered HH pads. This guy;
(https://www.brandedbiker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ebc_fa231hh_71.jpg)
After i install this, i noticed braking performance increased dramatically !
Brake lever became really really sensitive, i have really enjoyed this pads.
I only made 1000 km's with them so i cant say anything about the durability but i guess it will last a loooong while.
Thx for read gents >:(
I do agree with your opinions regarding EBC brakes on the GS500
Due to previous discussions on this group, many years back...I went with the HH on the front, but organic on the rear....
The consensus was the HH would be "too much" on the rear.
I also put on SS braided brake line for the front (left over from another project, so why not?) Some say braided brake lines do nothing...other say they make a big improvement in brake "feel".
I think I've gone thru the OEM brakes, then two sets of HH fronts, in 54,000 miles....
The OEM rear pads wore out really fast for me (maybe I'm too heavy on the rear brake?) ...the EBC seem to last a good long while.
Cookie
Quote from: Navy on October 01, 2018, 12:45:32 PM
Hello gents.
Wanna write about my experiences with EBC brake pads.
I have installed EBC organic brake pads to my GS500 at 32000 km's.
This guy right here;
(https://i0.shbdn.com/photos/50/42/98/x5_6005042985i9.jpg)
So, braking performance was ok but when i came to 35500 i have noticed a squek at my front caliper.
(i drive quite aggressive on street and use a LOT of front braking)
TAADAAA. Brake pads are done.
Since its a quite heavy bike, organic pads are not my best recommendation.
After that, i have installed EBC sintered HH pads. This guy;
(https://www.brandedbiker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ebc_fa231hh_71.jpg)
After i install this, i noticed braking performance increased dramatically !
Brake lever became really really sensitive, i have really enjoyed this pads.
I only made 1000 km's with them so i cant say anything about the durability but i guess it will last a loooong while.
Thx for read gents >:(
Quote from: Navy on October 01, 2018, 12:45:32 PM
I have installed EBC organic brake pads to my GS500 at 32000 km's.
So, braking performance was ok but when i came to 35500 i have noticed a squek at my front caliper.
(i drive quite aggressive on street and use a LOT of front braking)
TAADAAA. Brake pads are done.
Done after 3500KM? Either you're REALLY hard on brakes, or those things are made of cheese. Cheese is organic, right? :D
I like EBC as well. On my recent brake job on my Ducati I used the "EPFA" prefix HH pads, which are advertised for "Fast street and track-day" use. Felt better than my Buell did, and my Buell was running the regular HH sintered pads.
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2018, 06:51:09 PM
The consensus was the HH would be "too much" on the rear.
Seriously? How is that even a concern? I would argue that better brakes is a good thing, period.
If it's like "you can lock up the rear with organics just fine, so save the money," you save, like, $4. Besides, they A ) don't last as long B ) will dust up way more and C ) aren't as effective at stopping...
I can't find the previous discussion here on this group...so I am just going by memory....maybe even from another group..
But it was not a factor of the price/cost...
consensus was the HH pads on the rear of a GS500 we too "grabby"...just not a nice "feel".
The organics work just fine for me...smooth braking....I guess the HH work well too, but I never tried...the organics seem to last a long time on the rear.
Probably just a factor of rider technique...you get used to what you have and adapt accordingly...
BTW.....at VERY slow speeds...with HH on the front...I have to remind myself to "go easy" on the front brake, as the HH will sort of "Grab"...at normal riding speeds and high speeds...they work just wonderful!
So go with HH on the rear if that suits you!
Cookie
Quote from: Watcher on October 01, 2018, 09:00:33 PM
I like EBC as well. On my recent brake job on my Ducati I used the "EPFA" prefix HH pads, which are advertised for "Fast street and track-day" use. Felt better than my Buell did, and my Buell was running the regular HH sintered pads.
Quote from: twocool on October 01, 2018, 06:51:09 PM
The consensus was the HH would be "too much" on the rear.
Seriously? How is that even a concern? I would argue that better brakes is a good thing, period.
If it's like "you can lock up the rear with organics just fine, so save the money," you save, like, $4. Besides, they A ) don't last as long B ) will dust up way more and C ) aren't as effective at stopping...
I would probably want a less grabby pad in the rear so that its less likely to lock up. I don't use much rear brake normally, and under hard braking its really easy to lock the rear up since all the weight is forward. I guess another solution to that is just to use less rear brake pressure, but why not make things easier if you can?
I would guess sintered pads will chew through the stock rotors pretty fast. Anyone have experience with semi sintered pads? Fwiw I use semi sintered on my mountain bike because the feel and modulation is worlds better that sintered. I'd guess the same may be true for motorcycle brakes.
I went for the GG ones based on this summary over at Wemoto. I don't ride hard and so rarely have my pads up at full operating temp so avoided the HH. Interesting what they say about gentle first use avoiding squeal and mixing HH and GG. This is what they said:
QuoteHH or GG
HH Pads These have the highest coefficient of Friction and are ideal for high-performance motorcycles and race track use. Some modern performance motorcycles specify HH as standard. HH Pads can sometimes prove grabby, scary in the wet and ineffective in every day use when they fail to reach a good operating temperature.
GG Pads This grade of Pad is a great all rounder and will perform well in most conditions. GG are softer than HH pads and bed in quicker on worn discs.
Mixing HH and GG Pads Many manufacturers specify HH for the front of performance Motorcycles with GG in the rear. This is because GG pads can give you more feel and control of the back brake. It is not considered safe to use HH in the rear with GG pads in the front.
Obviously Pads are only as good as the condition of the whole braking system. When first used, brake pads can sometimes give poor braking, as residual moisture from the manufacturing process works its way out and the pads bed in. It is best to bed in pads with gentle use and very heavy initial use can result in glazing, a condition where the resins in the pad crystalize with resulting poor performance and squeal.
Of course, I've not used the new ones yet.... I bought them in case I needed them for the MOT but the old pads are still going strong - whatever they are.
Quote from: mr72 on October 02, 2018, 05:49:41 AM
I would guess sintered pads will chew through the stock rotors pretty fast. Anyone have experience with semi sintered pads? Fwiw I use semi sintered on my mountain bike because the feel and modulation is worlds better that sintered. I'd guess the same may be true for motorcycle brakes.
I've got HH in the front and organics in the rear currently, but don't rate the performance of the rear.
So as I'm due a rear brake disc replacement, I'm going to go for semi-sintered when I do the swap. On paper they seem ideal so hopefully they don't disappoint.
Rear brake is just for controlling your very slow speed noodling or in conjunction with riding the clutch in those slow manoeuvres where you need to do that or for balancing the front brake. But the problem is that if a sudden incident happens, you're very likely to get the front brake correct but end up fishtailing the rear.
Quote from: user11235813 on October 15, 2018, 05:20:40 AM
Rear brake is just for controlling your very slow speed noodling or in conjunction with riding the clutch in those slow manoeuvres where you need to do that or for balancing the front brake. But the problem is that if a sudden incident happens, you're very likely to get the front brake correct but end up fishtailing the rear.
Not if you practice braking.
If you omit the rear brake when stopping you're handicapping yourself. The front may take on the majority of the work but that doesn't mean the rear counts for nothing, and applying the rear brake does more than simply engine-braking.
Ok... I will give my perspective as well.
My GS came with organic pads ... the first weekend that I went for a little fun... the brake faded.. Feels like that there is oil on your front rotor... very scary!
HOWEVER, if you don't ride hard... is not a big deal ...you will be fine with organic.
I maintained the organic on the rear brake as many of you have done!.. works great!
I just use rear brake when riding within the city for maneuvers, hills... parking, etc...
I try to avoid rear braking when a hard brake is needed... IS VERY difficult to modulate front and rear braking separately at the same time! our brain does not like it! Usually locking the rear way earlier than the front... not stopping as the bike could and taking us down! Our foot is not accurate to apply pressure in a panic situation!
So... I prefer to stay ONLY on the front brake... knowing what I am doing and reacting properly if the bike starts to lock the front.
I don't Furling care if the pads will eat my rotors.. they are not meant to last forever... :nono:
In reality, you do not have a choice:
if you ride hard (brake hard as well) HH is imperative...
If you go for a pleasantly smooth ride.. organic will do for sure!
I got some EBC organics for my front. They aren't that great to be honest - not awful or anything, but coming off the stock fronts I was hoping I'd at least see an improvement. Anyway, filtering in the city is really demanding of both the engine and the brakes, not to mention performance in adverse weather, and, well, I think I'll be getting sintered next time.
As for this rear brake stuff - the rear brake is there so that your rear wheel slows down at the same time as your front wheel. If you don't use it, you're destabilising the bike, especially if you don't engine brake. I have to say, I've locked up the rear wheel a few times, and never have I felt that that was something to make me afraid of using it. All that happens is the back wheel slides out.
Quote from: Kito on October 16, 2018, 01:07:20 PM
I try to avoid rear braking when a hard brake is needed... IS VERY difficult to modulate front and rear braking separately at the same time! our brain does not like it! Usually locking the rear way earlier than the front... not stopping as the bike could and taking us down! Our foot is not accurate to apply pressure in a panic situation!
So... I prefer to stay ONLY on the front brake... knowing what I am doing and reacting properly if the bike starts to lock the front.
I don't think it's a case of your brain not being able to modulate front and rear independently, especially not when you consider what a racer does when slowing for a corner. While braking they're also working the clutch, shifter, the
throttle (yes, at the same time as the front brake), changing their body position, and steering all at the same time. If they can do all of that, your average Sunday rider can use a front and rear brake simultaneously.
I think the problem is twofold: Your average Sunday rider doesn't practice proper techniques and your average Sunday rider doesn't understand some physical principles that are happening when braking.
Think of the bike as a whole when you apply the brakes, what happens to the mass of the vehicle? The entire load shifts forward. When that happens the front tire takes on a lot of the mass of the vehicle, it's contact patch increases, and you can then apply more front brake since the front tire has more grip (same concept as "trail-braking", loading the front tire increases the grip and therefore the turning performance). I teach heavy braking to new riders as a two-step process. First you apply some braking pressure to transfer weight to the front tire, then you apply more brake pressure once the transition is set. As skill develops you can smooth it out to one continuous motion, increasing pressure steadily as the load shifts forward until the vehicle has come to a stop or you've reached the braking threshold.
The
opposite happens with the rear, so the
opposite technique must be applied. As the load shifts forward the rear tire's load
lessens, the rear tire has
decreased grip, and you then have to apply
less rear brake otherwise you'll lock up the tire.
It's hard to teach this technique, and it's difficult to master. Your initial press needs to be followed by a slight release, but you need to keep pressure down until stopped.
A simpler and nearly as effective approach is to begin braking with just the front, then introduce the rear once the vehicle's mass is stabilized. This will help you learn where the braking threshold truly is, and the rest is more or less muscle memory.
Quote from: Kookas on October 16, 2018, 02:45:00 PM
As for this rear brake stuff - the rear brake is there so that your rear wheel slows down at the same time as your front wheel. If you don't use it, you're destabilising the bike, especially if you don't engine brake.
Though I have to say, destabilizing the bike on
purpose can be quite fun. I've been playing around with "backing it in". Essentially you downshift too early for your expected speed, slip the clutch so you don't end up with pistons in your chest, and use the rear brake to smooth everything out. You get that rear tire spinning at a different rate than the front, then you can "drift" into the corner. Can be a little dicey if you really go for it, but in small doses can put a smile on your face.
Quote from: Kookas on October 16, 2018, 02:45:00 PM
I have to say, I've locked up the rear wheel a few times, and never have I felt that that was something to make me afraid of using it. All that happens is the back wheel slides out.
So, the absolute worst-case scenario starts with locking up the rear brake and having the rear end slide out of line with the front, and ends when one lets off the rear brake completely. What happens when the rear-end snaps into alignment with the direction of travel is you end up with the potential for a high-side.
But realistically in order to have the rear end out sideways enough for this to be a concern you'd have to be going at quite a high rate of speed
and be in a curve, and in which case just keeping on the brake would likely result in a low-side slide.
For 99% of scenarios locking up the rear brake will just result in increased stopping distance, or if you are in the UK you'll stall the engine as well. In all my years of teaching I've never seen a student get a bike to track out of line by locking up the rear, because we teach a "straighten then brake" technique, but even so we teach that when the rear brake locks you should keep it locked and focus on steering and front brake application. By far, by
far, by
FAR the bigger danger is locking up the front wheel, as that's basically a "you're gonna eat pavement, and it
is going to hurt" situation. If so, release and re-apply is the solution.
Quote from: Watcher on October 16, 2018, 11:34:13 PM
I don't think it's a case of your brain not being able to modulate front and rear independently, especially not when you consider what a racer does when slowing for a corner.
I agree with 100% you... when braking is planned!
Emergency braking.. is something that is difficult to manage....(even with training) nonetheless each rider will prefer a suitable approach for then self as time passes.
For my experience.. when using both on emergencies... at some point the bike locks one wheel (the rear one.. but at the panic you really do not know which one).... your brain will command you to release both.. and then any advantage that you would have applying the rear brake together is lost... and you passed a far... far.. far away from the maximum braking potential of the front wheel which could done the braking alone easily... this is what I have learned.... and works for me! (not same for everybody)
Locking the rear is fun .... on straits or when planned previously...ONLY... in 2 emergencies braking on runabouts I 've locked the rear wheel.... not fun at all... somehow I saved both.. but in both, I almost high sided when I released the rear brake...
Very nice topic, Tks Navy!
:cheers: Watcher... nice chat!
Yeah, a high-side is a real risk at speed. I don't think the GS has brakes good enough to lock a wheel over 20 mph though unless the surface traction is poor (or perhaps if you're cornering, but as you mentioned you should straighten up before braking anyway), but then again I've never tried, and I don't have sintered pads either :laugh:
Quote from: Watcher on October 16, 2018, 11:34:13 PMif you are in the UK you'll stall the engine as well.
Unfortunately so. We have been pushing to get clutches legalised, but in the meantime most people here have to get those shady backstreet clutches fitted. Half the time they're fakes that really mess your bike up so we tend to avoid using them.
Quote from: Watcher on October 16, 2018, 11:34:13 PM
A simpler and nearly as effective approach is to begin braking with just the front, then introduce the rear once the vehicle's mass is stabilized.
This is basically what I do whenever I need to brake harder than usual, but not quite emergency stop hard (upcoming curve is a bit tighter than I initially realized, slow car over blind hill, etc). When I'm riding normally I barely use the rear brake much, if at all. I know its probably a "bad" habit, but I do practice emergency stops using both brakes though, so my code brown instinct is still to brake with both.
Quote from: Kookas on October 17, 2018, 11:41:48 AM
Quote from: Watcher on October 16, 2018, 11:34:13 PMif you are in the UK you'll stall the engine as well.
Unfortunately so. We have been pushing to get clutches legalised, but in the meantime most people here have to get those shady backstreet clutches fitted. Half the time they're fakes that really mess your bike up so we tend to avoid using them.
Haha smartypants :icon_razz:
I was under the impression that "UK Method" for emergency stops is to leave the clutch out until just before stopped. It's
supposed to make the rear end less likely to lock up. In my own testing I found that was NOT the case, or it made little difference, but an unfortunate result is when you
do lock the rear you lock up the engine as well. I don't like the idea of coming to a stop with a "disabled" vehicle.
Quote from: Watcher on October 18, 2018, 09:43:59 PM
Quote from: Kookas on October 17, 2018, 11:41:48 AM
Quote from: Watcher on October 16, 2018, 11:34:13 PMif you are in the UK you'll stall the engine as well.
Unfortunately so. We have been pushing to get clutches legalised, but in the meantime most people here have to get those shady backstreet clutches fitted. Half the time they're fakes that really mess your bike up so we tend to avoid using them.
Haha smartypants :icon_razz:
I was under the impression that "UK Method" for emergency stops is to leave the clutch out until just before stopped. It's supposed to make the rear end less likely to lock up. In my own testing I found that was NOT the case, or it made little difference, but an unfortunate result is when you do lock the rear you lock up the engine as well. I don't like the idea of coming to a stop with a "disabled" vehicle.
It might be taught by some people, but it's definitely not an official thing. I was taught to just pull the clutch.
As an aside, the emergency stop is the most ridiculous part of our test. You have to be doing over 50 km/h - it's specifically metric, which isn't quite 30 mph, and if I remember right doing 30 puts you dangerously close to being below the tolerance. Nowhere else in the road system will you encounter metric. I actually failed the first time for going an mph or two too slow - everything else had been fine. So take 2 swings around and, naturally, I aim for about 40 mph instead and scare the nuts off the examiner I was riding towards. But I pass, because, well, I did stop, and there's no upper limit.