Since it's been raining and I can't ride, I've been kind of tinkering with my new-to-me 2012 Bonneville.
First, a giant PITA came from my obligatory bar swap. The bike came with Napoleon bar end mirrors which fix to the bars usng an axial bolt that threads into a sort of nut that's welded into the end of the bar about 3/4" from the end. I would really like to use these mirrors with the Superbike bars that are on it now, but these aftermarket bars don't have the nuts in there for these mirrors, obviously. First effort was to epoxy a T-nut into the bar, which didn't hold. Then I thought maybe JB Weld would be better, and it was, but not good enough. Now I'm back to the drawing board. The Triumphrat forum members recommended sort of a DIY version of a rubber expansion plug, which looks like it'd work but t's not exactly something that's easy to implement. So for now, these cool mirrors are sitting on the bench while I scratch my head and use a random sport-bike style replacement mirror that happened to be in my junk box that totally doesn't look the part. Probably going to wind up biting the bullet and buying some non-authentic bar end mirrors that clamp around the end of the bar or with their own proprietary plug, which is a drag because these Napoleon mirrors are legit.
The original exhaust on the Bonnie is so quiet you can barely hear it running, and one muffler is scraped from a fall. So I ordered a 2-1 system with removable baffle. This should make the bike a lot louder and also likely drop 20-30 lb or more. Doing just this mod prompts re-tuning much like you'd do with big exhaust on a GS, but in the case of the EFI Triumphs you re-tune with the OBD2 connector and flash a new map. The tool of choice is a program called Tune ECU that runs on Android phones and tablets and allows dowload, upload, edit, etc. of these map files. This controls not only fuel mapping but also ignition timing. It's pretty rad, actually. So doing the exhaust mod plus a handful of "free" mods to the airbox combined with the right ECU mapping should result in about +16 hp at the wheel on my Bonneville. That's going from just over 50 hp at the wheel to >66, a 30% increase in power. Dude, talk about leaving hp on the table.
[side bar: Triumph themselves did remap the ECU for 2014+ bikes that gives an extra ~4-5 hp, so part of this gain I expect to get would be available if I just remapped my bone stock Bonnie with the 2014+ map]
Anyway, I ordered the exhaust system yesterday and they shipped it same day from CA. Should be here early next week.
I found that I liked my shorty levers so much on my GS that I ordered an identical set for the Triumph, which unfortunately are coming from Hong Kong, and will take another 2 weeks to get here. And when I say they are identical, I think they are actually identical, as in, Triumph and Suzuki use the same levers. Interesting, eh?
I also find one thing interesting about how the Triumph guys think about suspension mods vs. our group here. Everyone wants to "improve" the Triumph suspension, which in the context of Bonnie riders means make it softer. The feeling of the collective is the suspension is too firm, especially the rear. Here on GSTwins we all think the factory suspension is too soft, and we "improve" it by making it firmer. On the Triumph, the idea is to use progressive springs, which I am guessing is largely due to limited travel. You need progressive springs so you can make it softer on bump performance without making it bottom all the time. But the GSers prefer linear springs. Anyway, with the 0.90kg/mm front springs and Katana rear shock my GS suspension is still softer than the stock Bonneville. I actually think this is a part of the Bonnie's character. I also think this is why my GS is so tall compared to the Bonnie. Anyway, I have a new (well, used, but new to me) set of rear shocks to go on the Bonnie, not because I think it's too harsh, but because they are 1.5" longer and I want to raise the seat height. The fact that they are like 2-3 lb lighter per shock and have far better dampers is gravy.
The really big challenge for me right now is storage. I really want to be able to use the Bonnie for everything I used the GS for: commuting, grocery store trips, backroads pleasure rides, big road trips, etc. On the GS I have a scooter-type top box that makes it very useful for every kind of trip, and I can remove the box if I really want to in order to streamline the bike, but I never do. The GS has this kind of utility-knife, streetfighter look and the box doesn't really detract. OTOH the Triumph has gorgeous lines and a top box or even a rack on the back would look completely out of place. Rigid "soft" panniers (aka "saddlebags") are probably the right solution, with an elaborate quick release system I'd have to design and build myself, but these things are gloriously expensive. Triumph makes a set of "waxed cotton and leather" saddle bags that would be perfect but they are, <ahem> <b><i>seven hundred freaking dollars!!</b></i> OMG, and they don't even include a motorcycle for that price. I have a bag that's affectionately known as a "Jack Pack", which is a vintage-military-style messenger bag made popular years ago when Jack Bauer carried one like it on an episode or two of 24. I am considering riveting in some ABS sheet to the interior of this bag to make it become rigid and then lining it with adhesive felt and add some aluminum reinforcement where necessary so it'll hold its shape even when packed. I just need something that'll hold two standard bags of groceries, my laptop, or my jacket. Is that too much to ask? Apparently. Oh, and I am not interested in the bulk market of "synthetic leather" saddlebags, those are virtually all styled to work only on choppers or Harleys. I am open to suggestions though.
Now if it'll ever stop raining I'll go ride a bit. I did take the Triumph out to get it inspected yesterday, and it was 48F out with a very fine drizzle. Seemed like the perfect British weather to go ride a British motorbike. There is something really special about a motorcycle that starts cold and runs absolutely perfectly 5 seconds after it's been started. After sitting for a week my GS really doesn't like to run unless you put it on PRI and we all know how long it takes to get these bikes warmed up. But this big wide 865cc twin definitely puts its heat closer to your legs than the GS's compact 487cc unit does, let me tell you. Works great when it's cold out, that heat comes off the fins and right onto your legs. I think this may wind up being pretty miserable in the TX summer.
Let the eurosnob flow through you.
Oh yes. Another reason I didn't buy a Ducati Scrambler. To think, I could have been simultaneously looked down upon by other Ducati owners and be thought of as a snob by my friends here on GSTwins!
And I did consider for half a minute test-riding a Moto Guzzi but I kind of decided that leaking oil and months-long parts wait times were not quirks of a new bike that I wanted to learn to embrace. I mean, I already have a motorcycle that leaks oil.
The Triumph Bonneville folks don't seem to be quite so snobby just yet. Maybe if I were to hang with the S3 set it would be different. But they do have "lifestyle apparel" :) Just like the video. And a Triumph key tag is only like $30. Plus shipping, I guess. From England. If I combine that with the $700 saddle bags I can save a coupla quid on shipping, right?
Quote from: mr72 on October 18, 2018, 07:25:55 AM
And a Triumph key tag is only like $30. Plus shipping, I guess. From England. If I combine that with the $700 saddle bags I can save a coupla quid on shipping, right?
Only an idiot would pass up a deal like that! Lol.
But in all seriousness, the Bonnie seems like a very cool bike that checks all your boxes, so I'm happy for you that you finally have a bike that (hopefully) you'll spend more time riding on than wrenching on. As for the bar end mirrors, couldn't you just buy a set that attach via an expanding insert? That's how my weighted bar ends attach, and I could've sworn I saw plenty of bar-end mirrors that attached the same way.
EDIT: CycleGear stocks these: https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/oxford-bar-end-mirrors-2018 which seem like they would work pretty well.
Quote from: qcbaker on October 18, 2018, 07:34:01 AM
Only an idiot would pass up a deal like that! Lol.
I think I qualify then!
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But in all seriousness, the Bonnie seems like a very cool bike that checks all your boxes, so I'm happy for you that you finally have a bike that (hopefully) you'll spend more time riding on than wrenching on.
In all honesty, I did spend much more time riding my GS than I did working on it. I mean, in two years I rode over 5K miles on it, which is pretty good. It's just that it happened to break in unexpected ways right when I needed it to work, and every time I had to repair anything it seemed to be good money after bad.
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As for the bar end mirrors, couldn't you just buy a set that attach via an expanding insert?
Yeah, that's exactly what I did. Problem is that I really want to use the existing mirrors, and they are not compatible with most other bar end mirror inserts. I have a set on the way that appears to have a rubber expansion plug type insert that I may be able to rob from those mirrors and use with the Napoleons, or otherwise I can just use the new mirrors which are less cool by half, but at least they will be functional.
Quote from: mr72 on October 18, 2018, 08:36:20 AM
Problem is that I really want to use the existing mirrors, and they are not compatible with most other bar end mirror inserts. I have a set on the way that appears to have a rubber expansion plug type insert that I may be able to rob from those mirrors and use with the Napoleons, or otherwise I can just use the new mirrors which are less cool by half, but at least they will be functional.
If you have a local CycleGear they will have bar-ends with either the rubber type of expanding plug or a system of two metal bushings cut at an angle such that when they are drawn together they push each other "out". Something like the latter should be easily adapted to work with at most a change of bolt/nut to the proper size that the mirrors already use.
Thanks, Watcher. I considered doing just that but looking at the CG website it didn't look like the bar end plugs they had were going to be specifically adaptable to my bar end mirrors, but I could have been wrong. I didn't actually go in person. Instead I ordered a pair of cheap bar end mirrors with the attachment method that looked like it could be adapted to my mirrors, and figured if I couldn't make the ends adapt, at least I could use the mirrors. Turns out the ends worked fine, all I needed was that piece of thick rubber tubing. So the mirrors are mounted!
Now I'm on to the next project. I made a rigid insert from ABS and aluminum that crams snugly into my "Jack Pack", so now I have a free-floating rigid pannier that I need to figure out how to mount. I will probably tinker around with that today using an array of bits from the folding luggage cart that I robbed parts from to make my top case rack for the GS. I think it's likely that eventually I'll wind up with a set of proper side bags either rigid saddlebags or whatever, but it may take me months to find just the right ones and for example I'm about to go get donuts on the Bonnie this morning and those are going to be hard to fit in my jacket pocket.
The exhaust system is scheduled to arrive Wednesday. I already have the plugs for the SAI-removal and my friend 3D printed me an airbox cover (sort of an air horn/flow-smoother-outer). Figure later this week I'll be doing the exhaust and airbox mods, remove the SAI, and re-flash the ECU. But in the meantime today's the only day with less than a 40% chance of rain for the last 10 weeks in CenTX so I'm gonna ride while the sun's shining.
So I have done a number of mods and the 2:1 exhaust system came in today. The goal of that swap, among other things, was weight reduction.
Users of the triumphrat forum suggest that such a swap can yield anywhere from 36 to 45 lb. Yeah, um. No.
The exhaust system that came off the bike, both mufflers and both headers, all together weighs....
25 lb.
The new system weighs 18.4 lb. I guess every little bit helps, but this is truly a little bit.
I did also remove probably a quarter pound worth of O2 sensors and probably a whole pound in the air injection system. So let's just round up everything and say this whole project, including the handlebar swap etc., is going to make the bike a whole 10 lb lighter.
BTW I rode the GS for an errand today since the Bonnie is in pieces. Suffice to say, I still love it. It's tall and top heavy by comparison, runs crummy when cold, but has a sweeter exhaust note and likes it when you rev it. But I still love it. Gonna be real hard if I wind up selling it.
After getting the exhaust installed yesterday (which was real easy) I discovered that with the new exhaust, the pipe tilts upwards much more than the stock exhaust did, such that it comes painfully close to my recently-custom-made waxed-cotton pannier. The outlet is about 2-3" away from the bottom of the bag which kind of worries me since parrafin-infused cotton sounds a whole lot like a candle wick and I seem to recall those are a bit flammable. I don't think the heat of the exhaust would ever be nearly enough to cause ignition but I do think it might be enough to cause the wax to soften and drip from the bag onto the pipe itself. Still the tail pipe is probably not hot enough to ignite wax. Guess I won't know till I try.
I went on my first long ride on the Bonnie yesterday with all of the mods in place except for the remapping of the ECU, which has to wait on a cable coming from England. On my GS, one of my biggest complaints was that after about a half hour of riding my right foot gets numb and after an hour it's not just numb but kind of painfully numb. I wind up having to take it off the peg and shake it out all the time just to keep going. Good news is after a 2+ hour ride on the Bonnie, no numbness at all in my foot. Also my left hand was always sore on the GS but not so on the Bonnie. Who knows why. I think the truth is the much longer seat-to-peg distance is a game changer for me. The GS was just always too cramped for someone my size. Remember all those times I asked about how to lower the pegs? I needed them like 3-4" lower, and that's just not going to happen.
Another thing I noticed on the long ride is that while the Bonnie definitely puts a smile on your face on the rare occasion you can open it up and ring it out, it is not as engaging to ride as the GS. You don't have to work the gears really much at all. I did a lot of 45-50mph winding hill country roads never shifting out of 4th gear. It has plenty of torque at 2500 rpm and up so going from 30-50 mph in 4th gear is just easy. Of course the bike will go over 50mph in first gear before it hits the rev limiter and I think after I remap it and change the rev limit to 8500 rpm it may make a 0-60 run in first gear and probably in under 4 seconds, but who rides that way? Hooligans, I guess. But not me. I've ridden this same route and roads many times on the GS and it's a left-foot festival. Every time slowing into a corner it's downshift to 2nd or 3rd, then out of the corner shifting back up to 4th or 5th to get comfortable for a section of 45mph flat-straight road. So that's using gears 2-5 basically all the time on these hill country roads on the GS where the Bonnie does it all in 4th alone.
The other thing that makes the GS more engaging is weight and center of gravity. I'm over 200 lb so on a 370-lb motorcycle, 35% of the total bike+rider weight is above the seat. This gives a pretty top-heavy feel. OTOH my Bonneville is probably at least 470 lb and has a lower seat to boot. And all of that extra 100 lb is about 9 inches off the ground. This really gives a light feel leaning it, kind of like a "Weeble". It never feels like it is going to tip and you don't have to really put much body control into the lean, not like you do on the GS. It just feels like it will lean further without getting unstable and grips like mad, I'm sure it's because of the more weight on the tires. As a sports car guy, this is very counter-intuitive to me, but the physics works.
The other thing on the GS that adds tremendously to the engagement in riding it is the soundtrack. The exhaust note is much better than the Bonneville. It has this thumper-like "bop-bop-bop" idle that turns into a howly song as you rev it past 5K that really is a beautiful sound. On decel it crackles and talks back. It's lovely. It invites you to repeatedly rev it and let it decelerate in gear just to hear that glorious noise. Now, I am still running the baffle in the Bonneville exhaust until I can remap it so I am not yet sure what the full glory of its sound is going to be, but it really is more of a "putt-putt-putt" at idle that turns into "pft-pft-pft" as you rev it with none of these overtones that you get in the 180-degree GS. It's like a 4-year-old making airplane noises with his lips. The Thruxton I rode with obnoxious "Dominator" open pipes made an ugly "BLAAAT!" when you revved it. I don't have high hopes for the tonal potential of the Triumph.
Anyway, all of this together adds up to the GS being a much more interactive, engaging bike to ride. You HAVE to work it around corners, you HAVE to control your body and weight shift. You absolutely must get it in the right gear; you can't just wind up coming out of a turn at 2000 rpm and expect to accelerate out of the exit without downshifting. In all of this, it demands more of the rider and rewards you for getting it right. The Bonneville is just kind of the opposite. You can go into a turn too fast and trail-brake hard while just leaning way more and it just turns without any complaint. You can hit a 20-mph-marked curve in 4th gear and wind up at 1500 rpm on the exit and just open the throttle and it'll get you back up to 50mph in about two seconds without even making any noise. It's incredibly forgiving. It's just a whole different kind of ride.
One other thing I noticed basically immediately when I got back on the GS after a week of riding the Bonnie all the time was how much softer the GS's ride is. After doing our hill country route yesterday, which has a bunch of poorly-maintained backroads with plenty of bumps and chattery pavement, the serious stiffness of the Bonneville really showed and I honestly wished I was on the GS on those sections. I do have a new set of rear shocks waiting for the right bushings to come in the mail so I can put them on the Bonneville and someone posted the matching progressive fork springs on CL for $50 and I think I'm going to jump on that. Again I say, GS owners tend to improve the suspension my making it more firm, and Bonnevile owners do the opposite. I can see why. That Bonnie is a rough-riding bike.
This all is complicating my decision-making process about whether to sell the GS. I think the numb-foot thing may be thing that puts it over the edge. As good as it is, the GS just doesn't fit me, never did, and never will.
Quote from: mr72 on October 26, 2018, 04:42:30 AM
Another thing I noticed on the long ride is that while the Bonnie definitely puts a smile on your face on the rare occasion you can open it up and ring it out, it is not as engaging to ride as the GS. You don't have to work the gears really much at all...
I've ridden this same route and roads many times on the GS and it's a left-foot festival. Every time slowing into a corner it's downshift to 2nd or 3rd, then out of the corner shifting back up to 4th or 5th to get comfortable for a section of 45mph flat-straight road. So that's using gears 2-5 basically all the time on these hill country roads on the GS where the Bonnie does it all in 4th alone...
Anyway, all of this together adds up to the GS being a much more interactive, engaging bike to ride. You HAVE to work it around corners, you HAVE to control your body and weight shift. You absolutely must get it in the right gear; you can't just wind up coming out of a turn at 2000 rpm and expect to accelerate out of the exit without downshifting. In all of this, it demands more of the rider and rewards you for getting it right. The Bonneville is just kind of the opposite...
This all is complicating my decision-making process about whether to sell the GS.
Same feeling I got from the Buell. It was a great bike and was fun in it's own way, but compared to a smaller bike that makes you work to be fast it's, for lack of a better term, boring in the twisties.
I think that if I had kept my CB500F and gotten the Buell I might still have both right now. As an only bike the Buell had some commuter negatives and wasn't as challenging on the mountain, the Honda was a much better all-around bike despite it's lack of speed,
and was more fun to ride fast despite it's, well, lack of speed.
I vote keep both. At the very least the GS might be a good fun-run bike and at most a good backup for when you realize half way through the Bonnie oil change you don't have a new crush-washer.
Watcher, I figured you'd have some experience that would illuminate my recent findings. I just haven't spent any real time riding any street bike except my GS, and now, the new Bonneville.
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I vote keep both. At the very least the GS might be a good fun-run bike and at most a good backup for when you realize half way through the Bonnie oil change you don't have a new crush-washer.
Yeah, I am pretty sure I'll keep both, just for the reasons you describe. It's a good backup, and actually the GS might be a better long-trip tourer. Plus I can keep the topcase on it and it becomes a terrific errand-runner. And given the fact that some parts are going to have to come from England (even for a bike made in Thailand!), I might really appreciate having a dependable backup, not to mention times when I am riding places where I will run a higher risk of scratches, dents, or theft, where I might prefer to ride the GS.
I also think it might be a great cure for boredom. :D
We shall see. I like having them both now. :)
Finished mounting my saddle bag over the weekend.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mshYkHO5fFjeLBegvHTWXXo8hDbtNN00_9vB7QF4_mQ4BXbE1F93EJuxQZQv2fqhy980TIgLGWMt3gavH7JJEQtVIj9Q9nCFeOxyE9Aj_J6pJ78yVC2BUxXkHm_YmkWNJ4Mpff9Gc40D_pLI0_SXXOCKEh5LIk0qcIBkCIy8uRGb20FV-qg9_wtKfcGjCed-SFhFkKC6hIBrB_8bAINflithBibJAwjUR4QqiSxWmUfU1_dWbUls8pIhaXanzb_zLNYj6V2t_9Otm-OmjpVshvrcBYhiJANGUY2ubGZrN7VnfgjXH1FaIhrCf4IEHzphpewFro5ftQ02bEm8UK8oUGjc2Lh3uV7yWOedPk0Qi4hDTVUz203AEE6pFn4dooNPmKDO0HuzYKZqKlsJ8LWfE1QQUTCeZu3hAeSG0U_drFDDHAZPtRE-tjEP-l3J39larUg47QW7tKIHPzbuVfyT4OZYU1Pw42s48MGyoADBQXN9BKMEM_vwlfcMuCS5OMPDPBJjGZLPAT8Jb0QQrDWI6pihSvUslRv01TGZcLfz45b5tMPypa5yMLINBKEbi-CvfaVwQB0BK1_yn0_q4cHoOEPD20-WG0ZXMz19CC6p76n-z3eo2wp2Wr9DOfras_WLWG5rk52WH4sxfSbLIXvHARFeFQ=w2952-h1534-no)
I got spoiled with the top case on the GS, which enabled me to use the bike for just about any errand. But a top case and even a rack that would support it would ruin the look of the Triumph, so I decided a single saddle bag was the right choice. I have quite a collection of messenger bags around here, and I started by using this military-style bag that is commonly known as a "Jack Pack", due to Jack Bauer carrying one in a few 24 episodes. I built an aluminum and ABS rigid liner for it and made some custom mounts for the bike to hold it. Then I added some parachute style latches and straps to hold the flap down since the velcro was not getting the job done. Oh yeah, and I treated this bag with wax to make it sort of water resistant. Anyway, it pretty much works to enable me to get very small things, will hold my laptop, or return a DVD to redbox, etc. But it's going to prove basically useless for the near-daily grocery trips I did on the GS. I need something bigger long term. And this bag is too close to the rear passenger peg. I really need a different solution. I'll roll with this for a while and then reassess this need in a few months. Meantime, it gives me a good reason to take the GS.
My new shorty brake and clutch levers arrived for the Triumph yesterday, I put them on and went on an hour-plus test ride. These are basically identical to the ones on my GS, which is a good thing. Man, I love being able to adjust the lever reach. That's the best $17 I could possibly spend on upgrades. Speaking of spending $17, I am still waiting on a cable to reflash the ECU, which had to be shipped from England. Freakin' British bike. It's not the bike's fault, but just that the software that's used to flash the ECU is only compatible with one specific cable, and as it turns out the only outfit selling that cable is in the UK. It's probably no coincidence that a large number of the users of said software are Triumph owners. So I can't pull the "baffle" (aka "dB killer") out of the exhaust until I can get this cable and reflash the ECU for fear of running the bike too lean. This is how you "rejet" an EFI motorcycle in the modern world. While the reflash and pipes upgrade should make for an additional 10-15 hp and raise the rev limit by 500 rpm, what I'm really hoping for is less of a lawn-mower type exhaust note. The GS really blows away the Triumph in terms of soundtrack.
Funny thing that I wound up quite unintentionally ruffling some feathers in the Triumph forum, which reminded me of what a gem this forum is. I think there's something to be said for a forum dedicated to inexpensive, unassuming motorcycles. You wind up with unpretentious and laid-back owners. :thumb:
Oh, and the exhaust did melt my saddle bag. Ho-hum. Now I have to get another one, mount it on the left. Gotta tinker with something, right?
My magic cable finally came from England, and I bit the bullet and paid for the $130 known-to-work "tune" to reflash the Bonneville's ECU. That was a process made more challenging because 1) the program only runs on Windows, and I have Macs, 2) the specific program I paid for will not run on a VM, won't even try, which is dumb, and 3) there's a "reset adaptation" function where the ECU re-learns where the "0" position of the TPS is, which requires you to start the bike and let it run until the oil temp reaches 70 C and the ECU then learns the TPS position, and since my bike's neutral switch is dodgy that meant I had to stand there with it idling holding it up for 20 minutes for this process to complete since putting the side stand down would kill the engine.
Anyway, that's done. Haven't ridden because it's wet and rainy today. If the rain clears, I'll give it a shot later.
In GS news, well my job situation changed such that keeping the GS is a no-brainer. So now I need to determine a schedule where I will ride it routinely enough to keep the gas from going bad in the carbs. First world problems.
With the ECU tuning and loud exhaust the Triumph is Really Fast. With the short-travel and very firm suspension it's also kind of punishing on some of these horrible CenTX county roads. I basically have created in my head a list of scenarios where the GS is a better choice, or really a better bike, mostly owing to softer suspension and a far more comfortable ride. Plus the GS has better electrical/charging system performance and a longer fuel range. The GS is more of a dependable do-all road bike, I'm finding, while the Bonnie is just more enjoyable as long as you stay within its limits. I think if I were setting out on a long trip to some place I have never been with lots of backroads and unknowns and potential weather ahead, I'd pick the GS nine times out of ten. It's kind of like owning a Honda Civic and a Jaguar XF. Sure, you wanna drive the Jag all the time but the Civic is probably a better all-around car.
I do think I'll wind up with a smaller sprocket on front on the GS to give back a little of what it loses to the Triumph on quickness, especially given that the Triumph will be my pick any time long stretches of 50+ mph are on the agenda. Plus I think it needs a little bit of that to make me want to pick it more often. In a month I've put 500 miles on the Triumph. I'm going to have to spread that kind of usage around!
But this does bring up an interesting point. I put 5K miles on the GS in two years, but I was using it more lately than I did the first year. Guessing maybe 2K the first year and 3K+ the second. I'm on pace to put 6K on the Triumph per year. There's something to be said for how much I enjoy the Triumph if it really does get used twice as much. I guess I am going to have to put my Jeep on the battery tender.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it. :woohoo:
I'm kinda-sorta re-thinking selling the Ducati. Haven't had many bites in the months since listing it, none serious, and the other day it stranded me in a drive-thru. I didn't idle it while waiting in the line of cars, but I also left the key on, and in that 3-minute stretch it lost enough juice to not even turn the starter.
The only options for a replacement battery were a conventional lead-acid type battery with an overflow drain (like what's in it) or a Shorai Lithium-Iron battery. I'm tired of screwing around with wet-cells and the risk of them spilling, so I went lithium, and it wasn't cheap, even at employee pricing.
If the main objective is still to sell it I should have just gotten the cheapo acid battery, but...
Truth be told I still like the Ducati, a lot. To date it's still the bike I've owned the longest, and while I've enjoyed other bikes more in some ways it seems none were as well rounded as the Monster, and the uniqueness and prestige it has is still attractive.
I may not take the listing down, but I am going to price it a little higher now that I have a Shorai in it. If I get the right offer I may still sell it, but as of right now if that never happens I'm perfectly content to keep it.
Hey Watcher, I'd buy your Ducati :) At least I know it's extremely well cared-for. But I'll likely just get on the hunt for a M695 since that's the one I really want. Who knows, maybe I'll go ride one and decide I don't like it.
That's unfortunate news about the battery choices. Did you get a LiFePO4? I guess in AZ you probably won't experience the cold-weather issues I did. I might consider a LiFePO4 for my Triumph but I'd get one that's just as big as the one in the bike mostly to try to get more capacity out of the stock size battery because the Triumph is iffy starting every time. I'd probably swap the reg/rect for the same one I put in the GS at the same time, and eliminate extra connectors just as I did with the GS. Seems to be the ticket for fixing the bad starting. At least the Triumph is really easy to bump start.
My vote is to keep the Ducati since it seems to make you happy and get the charging system worked out. I can understand the reluctance to rely on a 15 year old Italian motorcycle as your primary vehicle, though. What would you replace it with anyway? I can't remember seeing that.
After a couple of tanks of gas on the remapped ECU with my warmed-over Bonneville, a couple of things come to light.
- This bike is fast. You've really got to mean it to hold WOT to the rev limit in first gear, and it exceeds highway speed limits at the rev limit in 2nd. It sounds awful, kind of like a cross between a tractor and a trombone, but man does it go.
- Possibly related, the fuel economy is pathetic. Last tank was right around 30mpg. I rode the bike to work one day, which is about 30 miles through winding backroads at 40mph, one 30ish mile recreational ride again through a combination of suburban surface streets and windy/hilly back roads, and the balance short trips at 30-40 mph through neighborhood streets. My GS gets about 50-55mpg on the same riding conditions. I'm told that I can get mid-40s if I keep it under 4K rpm, which is less than halfway to the redline. It's clear that it runs quite rich and I think it's because the ECU map I loaded (which I paid for!!) is designed only for max power with no compromise or balance built in.
So again the GS shows its superiority in one respect. Until I get the fuel mixture dialed in, which I think may be a drawn-out trial and error situation lasting months, I'll be choosing the GS every time I have to ride a long distance simply due to range. My guess is that they probably equal out if I ride mostly >60mph highway cruising, where I imagine the GS, turning a lot of rpms would likely get less than its peak mpg and might creep down into the upper 40s and the Triumph will probably settle into a sweet spot and get the best it can. But going through the gears, starting and stopping, riding hills and sharp turns, the GS really kills the Triumph in fuel economy.
BTW, I did ride it a week with the stock exhaust and mapping including the O2 sensors and it wasn't much better mpg. Maybe 35-40. And after swapping the exhaust I rode it with no O2 sensors and the baffle in the new exhaust on the factory ECU map for at least one tank and it was also mid-30s. So the ECU map didn't make a huge difference. Chemistry and physics are fighting back a bit here. Nearly the twice the displacement and twice the power requires twice the fuel, so I am guessing the only solution to my mpg thing will be a very, very light throttle.
Quote from: mr72 on November 23, 2018, 07:42:42 AM
Chemistry and physics are fighting back a bit here. Nearly the twice the displacement and twice the power requires twice the fuel, so I am guessing the only solution to my mpg thing will be a very, very light throttle.
I've got experience with a 1203cc Buell that can argue the contrary.
Currently on my 750cc Monster I'm getting around 45mpg. When I had my CB500F I got around 45mpg. When I had my Buell Lightning I got around 45mpg.
In all three cases I had about the same mix of in-town, interstate, and for-fun riding, with the same hard accelleration off of stop lights and exitimg corners with each.
All three bikes weighed about the same, I've weighed about the same, and being all "naked" bikes with small windscreens they've all had about the same aerodynamics.
Within reason, it seems, it requires the same amount of fuel to move the same mass the same pace against the same air regardless of the volume of the cylinders.
That being said, if I
did run the Buell WOT it got considerably worse fuel economy than running the CB500F WOT. That's just displacement doing it's thing.
Bottom line is, once you get over the "Wow, it's got POWER!" aspect and start riding your Bonnie like a mode of transportation rather than a weekend toy you may see a dramatic increase in fuel economy.
Unless, of course, the mapping is rich AF.
I think you're probably right. The vendor who created the ECU map that I installed ("Dyno tested!") suggests that 45mpg is beyond what I should expect but some others on the Triumph forum with the same or very similar mods with this map installed report upper 40s to low 50s. However that's mostly UK folks and they have smaller gallons over there.
The vendor who developed this map (which they call "tune", and as a musician, I have a really hard time using this terminology in this context) did so in concert with their proprietary "bellmouth" airbox cover (really a replacement for the factory snorkel) and a DNA-brand cotton-and-oil air filter (kind of a UK version of a K&N). I'm running a more generic 3D-printed bellmouth and the factory paper air filter because I don't want to rebuild my engine every 10K. The vendor suggested I should switch to their bellmouth and a DNA filter, but this is not likely because I don't trust that kind of air filter and I'm convinced that whatever differences there are in flow between my bellmouth and the fancy one will only show up at max RPM and WOT. I did order a Uni air filter to try, mostly to see if the bike will get more lean across the board and that may also improve my routine gas mileage. Uni air filters supposedly flow about 90% as much as an equivalent cotton-oil filter, but filter ~95% as well as a paper filter, which is a bit more my speed.
I had to learn a lot about CV carburetor operation and tuning to get my GS dialed in. Well now I am beginning that same learning curve for tuning EFI on my Bonneville. I'm sure there will come a time when I actually edit the EFI map to get it tuned for my use. For now I realize that a lot of the theory of operation that drives jetting/tuning of CV carbs sort of applies to EFI. A more restrictive air filter produces higher manifold vacuum (lower manifold air pressure) at the same load/throttle/rpm as you would have with a freer-flowing air filter. The fuel mapping is calculated based on a target AFR at a given throttle position, rpm and MAP reading. So if the MAP reading is lower than expected, then the ECU interprets this as higher load than it really is and adds too much fuel making it rich. This is quite similar to how a CV carb air filter affects fuel mixture, in that a more restrictive air filter results in a richer mixture due to higher manifold vacuum which pulls the slide up higher and pulls the needle further out of the jet.
So it's according to this theory that I am going to attempt to correct my mixture problem by putting in a freer-flowing air filter. It may still wind up being too rich at WOT/8K rpm due to the less-than-perfect bell mouth but I actually seriously doubt it, but it kind of won't matter.
Quote from: Watcher on November 24, 2018, 12:20:30 AM
Currently on my 750cc Monster I'm getting around 45mpg. When I had my CB500F I got around 45mpg. When I had my Buell Lightning I got around 45mpg.
In all three cases I had about the same mix of in-town, interstate, and for-fun riding, with the same hard accelleration off of stop lights and exitimg corners with each.
All three bikes weighed about the same, I've weighed about the same, and being all "naked" bikes with small windscreens they've all had about the same aerodynamics.
That's fascinating. As I recall, my CB750F got about 45MPG. My XS650 got around 45MPG. My GS500 gets in the neighborhood of 45MPG. And my YY250T scooter also gets pretty close to 45MPG. It almost seems strange that the 2-stroke Suzuki 185 I had in high school got about 90.
Did a ~110 mile round trip through the hilly/twisty backroads and some long stretches of 65mph highway on the Triumph on Saturday. Last half hour of the ride was sort of misery due to a combination of factors, one of which is comfort.
I am going to have to do something about that seat!!
After nearly a month off I decided to take the GS for a spin to the grocery store the next day. Of course the first thing I noticed is how infinitely more comfortable the seat is. Yes, I did add/reshape foam and recover the GS's seat repeatedly to get it right so it's not a fair comparison. And I was reminded that the GS's suspension is just way better than the Triumph. But you know, I upgraded and tuned that too. But once I got rolling I really thought something was broken on the GS. It just felt like it was running on one cylinder. It wasn't, of course. It just has like 1/2 the power of the Triumph and man you could feel it. Once I got used to riding it again, keeping the revs up, etc., it was more back to normal, and a lot of the charm of that bike (and the light weight!) really spoke to me. It was saying, "don't sell me! don't sell me!"
So the next serious order of business is to replace the seat on the Triumph. So far "Progressive Suspension" is still waiting to ship me the bushings that'll allow me to install my new(used) rear shocks, which should improve the suspension, but they are relocating their warehouse and told me frankly they don't have a date for when they will ship those parts. It's been about 6 weeks. Once I get those installed I'm sure I'll deal with the fork springs, still on the fence about whether to do matching Progressive (brand) springs (which are dual-rate) to go with the shocks, or whether to hit up Sonic Springs for a set of linear-rate springs like I have in the GS. I do think there's a real difference wth the extra inch of travel in the GS, where a softer linear-rate spring can be used in the longer-travel bike but to get them stiff enough for bottoming resistance with only 4" of travel would probably mean they would be overly harsh over bumps so dual-rate could be a better option just for comfort.
The long ride was also done with the Uni filter installed on the Triumph and the gas mileage is indeed improved, just under 42mpg. Still not very good but way better than before. I think some of this was non-ideal for MPG anyway. We took a different route out than we did coming back. On the way out it was windy/hilly back roads with 45-60mph speeds and a little 4th-5th gear switching coming out of corners and up hills, and once that road straightened out we had about 30 miles of riding 60mph into a 20+ mph head wind. Coming home we took a nice comfy back road for about 15 miles and then switched to a country highway with 65mph speed limit, and it was getting dark and cold so I put my head down and kept the speedo on 65 the whole way, which is about 4K rpm on the Bonnie, definitely above the efficient cruising range.
I am guessing that with the Uni filter, my more routine riding of backroads with gentle cruising at 40-50mph will probably yield nearly 45mpg. We'll see. That'll be a little more acceptable.
Next long trip like this, I'm going to have to seriously consider taking the GS instead. Better fuel mileage, more comfortable, a lot quieter.
It is certainly odd why you are trying hard for low 40s fuel economy. I've been watching this thread since you started it and took note last time I filled up and I got 41.8US MPG (that was 50% around town riding with brisk acceleration from the lights, accidental wheelies, spirited riding in some twisties and some highway at 100km/h) and that was on my 2012 Ducati Multistrada 1200s (150hp/118Nm) with -1 tooth on the front for better acceleration.
A bit of rambling on sorry but it seems odd that you really have to try to hit low 40s for fuel economy. Maybe most bonnie owners buy them for fun and don't care about fuel economy so your new tune is biased towards performance? Either way bikes tend to get a lot better mileage than cars so you could consider yourself lucky in that respect.
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I agree this tune is absolutely made to make maximum power with a certain prescribed set of mods, and I have a similar set of mods so it's the most appropriate out of the box tune but it's certainly not balanced towards fuel economy.
I will likely wind up tinkering with the tune once I have time to fix the neutral switch (don't ask...), maybe lean it a couple of % at certain light throttle lower rpm conditions just to give a bit better fuel economy. I have the technology to do this.
Lol, I think you might just be addicted to tinkering
Quote from: qcbaker on December 03, 2018, 01:57:31 PM
Lol, I think you might just be addicted to tinkering
What? Me? No way.
Stuff Euro Bike Owners Do Edition
Today I ordered a $400+ seat for my Triumph. Why? Well, the stock seat is uncomfortable after ten minutes and downright painful after an hour. Of course, the same was true for my GS. With the GS, well that was a bike that cost me $900 so I wasn't going to drop $400 on a seat. Instead I took the cover off of the original seat, reshaped it, added/changed foam, then recovered it myself, all at a cost of, um, about $0. But the Triumph? Yeah I gladly dropped $400 on a new seat.
The new seat does have upgrades beyond just comfort. It's probably 1.5" taller than the seat I have, and for me with a 33" inseam this will be a huge improvement. Also, it is a more premium quality seat with that snazzy old school gold leaf "Triumph" logo on the back, which has to be worth something. Thing is, the Triumph stock seat has this kind of textured/patterned top on it so a wholesale recovering wasn't really in the cards like it was with the GS. And since the stock cover is shaped to match the seat/foam then adding foam to increase height and experiment with different cushioning wasn't really possible. So new seat. Oh yeah, coming from England, with a 4-6 week lead time.
I also, with much pain and suffering, got 75% of the shock bushings installed on the new rear shocks. I swapped the front springs easily enough, that's a job I've done many times. But those freakin' shock eye bushings are a colossal pain. I bought the shocks used for 1/3 the cost of new, which seems like a deal until you count the 20 hours of labor it takes to swap the bushings since these had bushings for a later model bike that didn't fit. I'm exaggerating, but only a little. But of course I have one more bushing to install, which is easier said than done, then I am still waiting on those little metal sleeves which are needed before I can install the shocks.
So once this is all done I will have upgraded the suspension on both ends, exhaust, and seat at an upgrade cost right around $1K, or about 25% of the cost of the bike. I'm still below the market value of this bike and it's getting closer do dialed in.
Quote from: mr72 on December 20, 2018, 01:06:23 PM
Stuff Euro Bike Owners Do Edition
Today I ordered a $400+ seat for my Triumph. Why? Well, the stock seat is uncomfortable after ten minutes and downright painful after an hour. Of course, the same was true for my GS. With the GS, well that was a bike that cost me $900 so I wasn't going to drop $400 on a seat. Instead I took the cover off of the original seat, reshaped it, added/changed foam, then recovered it myself, all at a cost of, um, about $0. But the Triumph? Yeah I gladly dropped $400 on a new seat.
The new seat does have upgrades beyond just comfort. It's probably 1.5" taller than the seat I have, and for me with a 33" inseam this will be a huge improvement. Also, it is a more premium quality seat with that snazzy old school gold leaf "Triumph" logo on the back, which has to be worth something. Thing is, the Triumph stock seat has this kind of textured/patterned top on it so a wholesale recovering wasn't really in the cards like it was with the GS. And since the stock cover is shaped to match the seat/foam then adding foam to increase height and experiment with different cushioning wasn't really possible. So new seat. Oh yeah, coming from England, with a 4-6 week lead time.
Make sure they throw in that Triumph branded leather keytag!
All jokes aside, a comfy seat is such a good QoL mod, $400 is probably worth it for all the added comfort down the road.
Quote from: qcbaker on December 21, 2018, 12:07:50 PM
Make sure they throw in that Triumph branded leather keytag!
Yeah! I could always use another one! But this is an aftermarket seat anyway made by "Burton Bike Bits" out of England who makes a jillion British bike parts. And a super premium seat.
Quote
All jokes aside, a comfy seat is such a good QoL mod, $400 is probably worth it for all the added comfort down the road.
Yes, that's what I thought too and I actually budgeted for this when I bought the bike. I didn't want to spend meaningful money on a motorcycle that wasn't comfortable to ride. I felt the same way about the exhaust and the expensive pannier I bought. My budget for this motorcycle was about $8K and I bought it for half that so the other half was available to upgrade/repair/modify as needed. I'm way under-budget. Actually quite glad I didn't buy a new Street Twin and wind up with all of my budget in the base bike and no money for dialing it in.
The top reason for keeping my GS forever is emerging: freakin' parts for this Triumph take forever to get here.
I've now been waiting since October, yes 2.5 months, for a set of four little metal sleeves, sort of steel bushings, that ride between the polyurethane shock eye bushing and the post on the frame. These are required to install my Progressive shocks, which I bought used literally the day after I bought the Triumph but happened to come with the wrong size bushings. So it was the first part I bought, might be the last I get installed. In this case the shocks are actually made by an American company so I can't even blame the UK shipping as part of the problem. The company relocated their warehouse like a week after I ordered the parts (bushings plus sleeves) and my parts were on backorder when I ordered them, the whole order/delivery has gotten lost in the move and I've been calling them weekly to remind them that I have $8 worth of parts due.
OTOH my beloved Suzuki ... well I can get parts anywhere, including more than one dealer in Austin, or improvise stuff that gets the job done. For the most part I can get anything for the GS either from a forum member here or on Amazon or ebay and have it here in a couple of days max. Not that it needs any parts, but that's because I haven't ridden it more than 10 miles since I bought the Triumph three months ago.
I did order that new fancy seat about two weeks ago, and the company I ordered it from said there was a "4-5 week lead time", but they advised that they were closing on Dec. 21, the day after I ordered the seat, not to reopen until "after the holidays" which I think means today. My guess is the 4-5 week lead time doesn't include the two weeks that have passed since I ordered it, and the clock starts now. And if history is any predictor, it'll be 5+ weeks, plus 10 days shipping time from UK because of Royal Post or whatever, so I'll be looking for that seat to arrive in about March.
I did install a H4 LED replacement "bulb" in the Triumph and this will likely fit GS500Es as well, in case anyone's interested. Here's the link:
http://stores.advmonster.com/h4-r3-led-headlight/
Recall in my GS I have a LED whole lamp assy replacement and it's killer. I was hoping to get something similar in performance for the Triumph without spoiling the look of the stock headlight, since my GS's replacement has that kind of Darthvaderesque look that wouldn't fit at all on the Bonnie. I still recommend the other lamp like I have in my GS if you are doing a GS500E LED upgrade, but if you really want to keep the reflector, this bulb may work well. It's very good in the Triumph, looks great and performs perfectly.
There's still a list of mods and parts that I need for my Triumph to make it perfect. Funny thing is, I never considered making my GS perfect and it wound up pretty close to perfect anyway.
- new seat -- on the way, eventually
- suspension upgrade : front done with Progressive springs bought used, rear, 99% of parts on hand just waiting for the metal sleeves
- handlebar -- I have my old junk box Superbike bar on the Bonnie but it's pretty ratty and I would like an aluminum version, if such exists
- exhaust -- swapped, in good shape, even though it's loud and sounds like half of a high-schooler's Honda Civic
I upgraded the seat, suspension, handlebars and even to an extent the exhaust on the GS. I guess this is par for the course. It was way cheaper on the GS but a lot more actual work and less waiting on stuff to wind up in the mailbox.
Funny how talking about my Triumph makes me want to go out and ride the GS. I do have a list of mods I need to do on the GS:
- remove the handlebar risers and reroute the cables back to stock -- I put this on in an attempt to get a slightly more relaxed riding position on the GS but the Triumph gets that itch scratched really well and now I'd like to undo it on the GS and get a little bit of it's sport back.
- shim up the wobbly side stand
- do a thorough cleaning, it needs it.
- ride it ? Yeah, that's all it needs!
I think Bluesmudge uses that R3 bulb in his GS500F IIRC.
I didn't have that one, I had the Native H4 from that same site. It fit perfectly in the stock round headlight bucket on my E and I loved it!
I remember it stirring up some debate here on the forum about how LED bulbs "just won't work correctly" in housings not designed for them... but I trusted my eyes and personal experience, rather than a member on here who was just here for a small blip of time lol.
I'm enjoying this thread mr72 :cheers:
Yeah if it works, it works. I didn't want to spoil the look of the triumph with a complete headlamp, so that R3 bulb was worth a try. Still haven't ridden at night and haven't compared it directly with the GS.
I tend to agree that a dedicated LED emitter/projector headlamp assembly is likely to perform better than a "bulb" replacement put into a reflector headlamp, but it's entirely possible and even likely that a replacement "bulb" like this can perform better than the original halogen bulb. Like I say, I am not sure it's really as good as the dedicated LED lamp in the GS but it does look a lot more like it belongs on a Triumph Bonneville.
BTW I have ridden short little bits at night with that R3 headlight and it's spectacular. Might even be better than the GS's LED light assy.
That is fantastic!!! :woohoo:
In that thread I mentioned, I tried to explain that advmonster.com specifically set out to design drop-in LED bulbs that WOULD work in those kinds of housings... but it was falling on deaf ears (or blind eyes lol).
I will be honest and say this though (and it's in my project thread too)... when I tried out the Native H4 in the gixxer headlight assembly I installed on my GS, it was absolutely horrible and I wasn't able to use it.
Did you try the H4 in any other headlight assembly?
I suppose it's fair to say that not all LED replacement bulbs for reflector housings are created equal. There are dozens of different ones available at every price point from Amazon and eBay, not to mention things like dealxtreme or alibaba where you are seriously rolling the dice. Good to know what works specifically and what doesn't. My guess is the reflector/lens design of the GSXR headlight was just not compatible with that bulb.
And I will note, I didn't try these R3s in a GS500. This is in my Triumph which has a 7" round headlight assembly not unlike a GS500E but obviously not identical. I do think it's worth a try in a GS500E headlight because if it can be made to fit (the heat sink part...) and if it performs like this then it would be a first-rate modification for sure. However I do think dropping in the headlight whole assembly with an LED emitter like the one in my GS500 is an easier mod but that light cost over $100 and changes the look a whole lot.
I decided to take the GS for a longish spin today. After riding the triumph for the last couple of months it was kind of a shock. First, I wonder how I ever rode this thing with the pegs so high. Man that's cramped for my long legs. It took putting it on prime and a lot of effort to start it and once it wat running again I had the distinct feeling like it was running on one cylinder. It isn't, but the 180 degree firing order coupled with the huge displacement deficit just made me think feel that way.
Once I remembered how to ride it, all was well. I had to break the habit I developed on the triumph of shifting at 5k RPM and trying to accelerate out of corners at 2k. Once I got it back up in the revs it was good to go.
So definitely the GS is going to be more adventurized. I have to move those foot pegs, no question about it, even if I have to hire a welder. I mostly was reminded how I need to ride the GS more often and how I had missed it.