Hi guys, i'm having a problem with my 2002 recently.
It all started last week when i started the bike in the morning to go to work, it didn't have much "energy" but with some hesitation it started. Then when at launch i had to come back home the bike wouldn't start, i push started it, run ok for 1 mile and then it started to bog down/misfire and wouldn't run. Eventually it died and i couldn't start it again so i left the bike there and bought a new battery.
The old battery was of the acid type and had a lot of oxide on both terminals, i thought the battery was bad and so i just bought a new one and it started.
Then today same problem, it started to run rough, all the lights switched off, i then stopped to check if everything was connected properly but the battery was dead and i had to push start it again.
I got it home with the headlight switched off, still running rough and had only the time to measure the voltage across the battery. 10.7 with the bike off, 8.7 (!!!) with the engine on!
Any chance some of you can help me to understand if it's the regulator and/or the stator? unfortunately the battery charger i have doesn't seem to work so i can't try to charge it for now...
Thank you and i apologize for my probably bad english :)
Hi Big,
You will need to get a working charger to resolve this.
also those dead batteries will probably get some life back if you get them on charge.
you will need a multimeter with ohms and voltage measurement
It is most likely the regulator, which you can test by getting a fresh battery in and starting the bike, a working regulator should put the voltage at the battery terminal to over 14V.
if you just see the battery voltage below 12 and slowly dropping, it means that there's no charge coming from the regulator.
I had the same issue recently, looked around new and they were about $270 AUD. I managed to get one from the wrecker for $50 and it's worked fine.
i just found this one from china and it's $19.
https://www.newfrog.com/product/voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-suzuki-gsxr400-gk76a-gs500-gs500e-dr650s-194452?currency=AUD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsIbJqs6-3gIVQh0rCh0oggXhEAQYAiABEgKB7fD_BwE
There were several variations on the regulator, and the bolt holes on one don't quite match the other so make sure you get the right one.
It's a pretty easy swap, took me about 15 minutes.
Once again, it is much more likely to be the regulator, the power electronics are much more susceptible to degradation than the stator, which is made from copper coils and magnets.
Thank you for the help!
I think i'll bring the battery in the place i bought it hoping they can charge it for me (i don't know if it's the charger that isn't working or if it's the battery that it's already dead), then i'll try what you said, i found a new regulator on ebay for around 60 euro, i'll check with the multimeter and in case i'll buy it.
How can you tell if it's the stator or the regulator if the system isn't charging the battery? is there a way or it's just common on these bikes?
Edit: maybe i didn't get something... i already measured the voltage and with the engine at idle it was 8.7v (with engine off it was 10.7) isn't this enough to tell?
Quote from: Big1995 on November 06, 2018, 02:38:15 PM
Edit: maybe i didn't get something... i already measured the voltage and with the engine at idle it was 8.7v (with engine off it was 10.7) isn't this enough to tell?
Presumably you checked that at the battery, which is also the output side of the regulator. That's enough to tell that it isn't charging and the whole bike is running on and depleting the battery. You need the bike running to check the input side of the regulator to see whether the regulator is bad or if the generator is dead. Could also be a wiring fault but less likely.
If you have a car and some jumper cables you could charge your battery using that too.
Try your meter to see if your charger is working on the new battery. Put it on the new battery and you should see rising voltage. If not, let it charge for an hour and check it again. If still no change, your charger is dead.
I finally did some tests.
I followed this guide http://bbburma.net/Documents/JohnBates_ChargingCircuitTests3.pdf and had these results:
Idle, 2500rpm and 5000rpm 12.63v -> does not charge but we already knew this.
Positive cable test 0.00v
Negative cable test 0.00v -> both as it should be
Stator test: i'll call the 3 cables "top" "right" and "left" for how they are placed in the clip
top+right 7.7 ohm ->way too high
top+left 7.8 ohm -> way too high
left+right 1.5 ohm -> should be ok
Isolation test:
Top 0L -> as it should be
Right 0L ->as it should be
Left 0L -> as it should be
AC output test: i did this not at 5000rpm but at around 4000 because i only have 2 hands and used the choke to raise the rpms
top+right 0v ??
top+left 0v ??
left+right 0v ??
I find really strange that all three show 0v...
This leads me to the stator :icon_sad:
Besides the stator, one other thing to keep an eye on is how clean the electrical contacts are on all your connections. I was reading a low voltage on my battery while running that didn't' seem right. It would drop even more when revving it. I was getting between 12, 12.5V. Turned out that on my old 06 GS500F the contacts on my power connections were all oxidized and had high resistance. When revving the engine it would draw more current and the resistive losses would cause the voltage on the battery to nosedive. Cleaning all the contacts up and applying dielectric grease eliminated the issue.
Since you have an older bike I figure it's something to look out for.
I changed the stator this morning, i'm pretty sure this was the problem
(https://image.ibb.co/fFUcFL/5b640e1b-d280-4e48-a8ef-11828c637bfa.jpg)
As soon as i moved it all the wires crumbled.
I still have to try it because when i did the tests one week ago i left the choke on and apparently it flooded the engine and i had other things to do this afternoon.
I hope i can check it tomorrow but i'm confident it's solved (atleast the stator, i'll still have to check the regulator)
Thank you all for the help!
The starting problem was due to fouled/wet spark plugs.
I repeated the stator test:
Top+right 0.07 ok
Top+left 0.07 ok
Right+left 0.07 ok
AC output test: I still have 2 hands so i can't use throttle and the 2 leads of the multimeter so i used the choke ti raise rpms.
All 3 combinations of wires were 33v at 2000rpm and 65v ad 4000rpm. Not a real test at 5000 but looks ok.
Isolation test was perfect and still is, all 3 are 0L
One strange thing is that the voltage on the battery with the engine on was:
idle around 1000rpm 13.6v
2000rpm 14.1v
3000rpm 13.9v
So i did the tests for the RR and this is wat i've got:
Reverse bias check (14 in the list)
Everything 0L so this is good
Forward bias check (16)
all 3 showed around 1860-1900 but i don't know what it is. the manual says it should be around 0.5v
I did these 2 tests with the stator wires disconnected, i don't know if this is the way to do it but the guide doesn't say anything...
If i did the test correctly i have a bad RR
Those charging voltages look good. I'd just ride it and keep an eye on the state of the battery charge before replacing anything. It's charging well and not not overcharging which is what kills batteries.
Quote from: herennow on November 19, 2018, 12:58:59 AM
Those charging voltages look good. I'd just ride it and keep an eye on the state of the battery charge before replacing anything. It's charging well and not not overcharging which is what kills batteries.
Thank you for the reply, you made me realize that the voltages are ok :D I thought it had to be around 15v at 5000rpm... reading again the guide confirmed what you said.
So if the voltage on the battery is within spec can i be 100% sure the regulator is fine?
I'd rather change it now than burn another stator and have to change it anyway...
i'm a complete noob when it comes to electronics, i bought my first multimeter one week before this problem :icon_mrgreen:
If the voltages are under 15V then you'll be fine. I think the risk of damaging the stator is overstated in most cases. The failure modes for magnetics like this usually begin with heat and vibration which you simply can't avoid. However, once the insulation in the wiring cracks or wears through and the coils short then they will overheat and go south very, very fast. Likewise once there's an open circuit then it's simply dead and nothing you can do about it. There's not a lot of gradual degradation for that kind of part.
Just tested the RR (the correct way this time :D ) and i had 0L where it had to be 0L, 0.55v on all three wires and 0.58v on all three wires in the tests that had to be around 0.5v. Looks like the regulator is working as you all said and i was just paranoid!
Thanks a lot for the help! :bowdown:
Aaaaand it died again today. Same way, started going on 1 cyl end then it just cut off the ignition. Battery was 12.15v with the key on "off", just under 12 with the key on "on" and just above 12 with the engine running.
I had to leave the bike parked on the road and take the bus so i can't do any test until i don't know when...
How can a bike with such simple electronics give all of these problems i don't know.
Well, something is not right. My guess is you must have corrosion in connectors or wires (yes, the copper wire under the insulation can get quite corroded). Or some other fault. But with the bike running the voltage at the battery terminals should be over 13v at idle and over 14v at like 3K rpm. If it's not, then the battery won't charge.
There are only a few things involved here. You have the stator, which you say you checked, right? So if the stator voltages check out (say over 50VAC on each leg) then next up is the wiring from the stator bullet connectors to the reg/rect, which may routinely get melted and corroded so this is highly suspect. But if that's good, then the reg/rect is the next thing in the chain. If that's good then the wiring/connectors between the reg/rect and the battery need to be checked. That's literally all there is.
I'm sorry to hear your problem has come back. It's a real PITA to have to go back to something one thought was sorted. I've just pulled the head of another bike for the second time in 6 months.....
That said, I'm very surprised. You tested it giving 14 V over 2k rpm. At that voltage it should charge fine!
However now you see 12V only when running. Did anything change? This is where you must focus.
Mr72's comments are good. Also do you have any non standard electrics ? Spot lights, alarm/immobiliser?
The comments about connections is important, especially make sure the battery terminals and connectors are clean.
I want to reiterate, the connector between the regulator-rectifier and the pigtail that connects to the bullet connectors on the stator gets corroded and literally melts down. I also found melted wires on my GS going from the reg/rect to the battery (DC side). This stuff is really underdesigned an cannot tolerate any corrosion lest it melt and cause major problems.
So if you haven't checked the wiring and connectors for corrosion or signs of overheating, that's a good place to start.
Today i installed the charged battery (13.4V) and tried bringing the bike closer to where i work, it's maybe 1 mile and the bike died midway with the same problem. I pushed it the rest of the distance, then tried to ride it the last hundred meters, with some hesitation it started and it ran with only 1 cylinder. I then cleaned the spark plugs and it started right away, even a few times in a row... :technical: I hope it's not just bad spark plugs :icon_lol:
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2018, 10:47:39 AM
Well, something is not right. My guess is you must have corrosion in connectors or wires (yes, the copper wire under the insulation can get quite corroded). Or some other fault. But with the bike running the voltage at the battery terminals should be over 13v at idle and over 14v at like 3K rpm. If it's not, then the battery won't charge.
There are only a few things involved here. You have the stator, which you say you checked, right? So if the stator voltages check out (say over 50VAC on each leg) then next up is the wiring from the stator bullet connectors to the reg/rect, which may routinely get melted and corroded so this is highly suspect. But if that's good, then the reg/rect is the next thing in the chain. If that's good then the wiring/connectors between the reg/rect and the battery need to be checked. That's literally all there is.
I get 13v at idle but it doesn't go over 13.8v, even at 4000 rpms it's lower.
The stator is new, i checked today with a collegue and at 5000rpms the output is around 80V, so that's working
I checked the regulator using the guide, since all the values are correct can i say the wires that lead to it are ok? Anyway at this point I'd change re RR anyway and get another new battery.
Quote from: herennow on November 27, 2018, 12:04:45 PM
I'm sorry to hear your problem has come back. It's a real PITA to have to go back to something one thought was sorted. I've just pulled the head of another bike for the second time in 6 months.....
That said, I'm very surprised. You tested it giving 14 V over 2k rpm. At that voltage it should charge fine!
However now you see 12V only when running. Did anything change? This is where you must focus.
Mr72's comments are good. Also do you have any non standard electrics ? Spot lights, alarm/immobiliser?
The comments about connections is important, especially make sure the battery terminals and connectors are clean.
Well the good part of this is that i'm learning something :D but yes it's becoming annoying...
I haven't added anything to the electrical system
I'll check again the terminals but they seem fine
Quote from: mr72 on November 27, 2018, 12:12:48 PM
I want to reiterate, the connector between the regulator-rectifier and the pigtail that connects to the bullet connectors on the stator gets corroded and literally melts down. I also found melted wires on my GS going from the reg/rect to the battery (DC side). This stuff is really underdesigned an cannot tolerate any corrosion lest it melt and cause major problems.
So if you haven't checked the wiring and connectors for corrosion or signs of overheating, that's a good place to start.
as i said i think i'll just get a new RR... maybe it's bad even if the values are good... i don't know
Hi guys, i have news. Good or bad i don't know :technical:
Long story short with the engine running and the lights off i have 14v charging the battery, with the lights on it goes down to 12.8 and then it slowly drains the battery. Could it be the regulator not "feeling" the load and not regulating the voltage accordingly?
Also i found some wires (circled in red in the picture) warm to the touch right behind the battery. I removed the tape and found out it's the ground that collects 3 different ground wires from the entire bike and then connects to the negative of the battery. Could you guys check if your bike does this too? I measured with a thermocouple and it was around 40°C/104°F.
I don't know if it's normal or not...
Also another thing: when fiddling with the bike trying to understand the problem, i disconnected the negative pole of the battery with the engine running and it kept idling fine... is this normal?
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
If your charging voltage drops to 12.8V you will simply not be getting enough to charge a standard battery (between 12.9 to 14.1V depending on your volts/cell requirements). Add some RPMs into the mix and the coils will get greedy and rob too much from the system.
Have you replaced the regulator? It is likely to have suffered a beating with your Stator having fried - have had similar issues with Suzuki regulators being a bit weedy and can lose the ability to regulate appropriately once cooked through undervoltage effects.
The warm cable from your fully charged battery is more likely to be the current draw to supplement the regulator output in driving the headlight (60/55W) + (5/21W) - ~60W of lighting is going to try pulling 5A. see below Have you tried measuring the current draw while it's running? if you are seeing about 6A being drawn from the battery while idling it would be likely that the regulator has pegged it.
Will chuck a DC clip on meter to my bike tonight when I get home and post some Battery Amps/V/RPM figures if that helps.
EDIT:
Found this linky for an 'E' model that possibly may be of use
http://www.bbburma.net/Documents/JohnBates_ChargingCircuitTests3.pdf (http://www.bbburma.net/Documents/JohnBates_ChargingCircuitTests3.pdf)
EDIT2:
Measuring the voltage at the battery terminals I see the following (Fluke 87 - DC Volts (RMS))
14.45V @1500 rpm
14.10V @ 2500 rpm
13.99V @ 3000 rpm
13.91V @ 3500 rpm
13.66V @ 4000 rpm
13.42V @ 4500rpm
13.68V @ 5000 rpm (bit of bouncing around above 4500rpm)
13.59V @ 5500 rpm
seems to sit about 13.55V and 13.7V above 5000 rpm.
Key on - not running - acc. draw 5.3A (no mods)
~2A draw on idle - (clip on DC RMS ammeter). leave it running and the current eventually stabilizes to zero amps.
Took some scope shots - but no great surprises -
On idle (1500 rpm for me) - current waveform shows a modest train of charge transients - coils easily being supplied.
At 3000 rpm, current waveform is a mix of idle + 5000 rpm waveform. noticeable clipping on half the engine cycles, with the system appearing to be in balance (RMS power value to the battery approaches zero).
At 5000 rpm, the current waveform shows sharp transients from the CDI / coils. but still a net gain to the battery.
Hopefully this helps :icon_idea:
It's normal for it to stay running with the battery disconnected. Evidence that your charging system is working properly.
It's not normal for the wiring to get hot though. Electrical current always creates heat but if the wires are noticeably hot it indicates that either the wires are too small, you have a short somewhere, or that there is some resistance. Corrosion is the most likely cause. Corrosion can cause resistance in the wire, low voltage at the battery, and even the intermittent failure that you're experiencing. There could also be an open (corroded?) ground that's forcing additional ground current to go through a different ground point and causing those wires to heat up.
Separately, are your carbs running rich? This would fit your symptoms of stalling out as it warms up, and starting again once you clear the plugs.
BTW that wire that was hot to the touch is the same one that melted on my own GS. It's undersized for the purpose anyway so it's at risk but in my case what caused the meltdown was heat from the regulator/rectifier. Anyway I rewired with 10ga ground wire and even rerouted a bunch of grounds and overall improved the wiring since I had a number of melted and destroyed wires, but to eliminate the root cause required me to throw away the stock reg/rect and replace it with a MOSFET unit.
Anyway, I was going to write long about this but it doesn't matter. I still think you need to replace the reg/rect and would be smart to replace most of those wires. The 16-18ga wiring used in the GS is just too small for this anyway, I used 10ga when I redid my ground wiring. I would bet the reg/rect is on its last legs and I'd advise you find a way to get a MOSFET unit in there, although it an be sort of expensive to make this plug and play. You can read more about my saga over in the projects thread.
Quote from: Kiwingenuity on December 09, 2018, 05:07:09 PM
...CUT...
Thank you but i don't understand electricity that well :dunno_white:
The link you posted is the same guide i'm following to find the problem
I changed the regulator with an sh775 mosfet unit and now i have over 15v on the battery, even over 16 with the revs up. isn't this way too much?
Turning on the headlight it goes down to the usual 12.8 and less.
I don't know what to do. I cut the wires from my oem regulator to wire the mosfet unit so i can't even put the old one back in.
I'm not going to go back and re-read all of this so it might not be 100% or even 50% relevant, but...
with everything you've done, the fact that the voltage goes down when you "turn on the headlight" indicates your wiring and/or connectors are corroded. There's no way to know exactly which one besides inch by inch chasing down every single wire following the wiring diagram and verify the connections are not corroded, replace (likely) as necessary, and probably also replace a lot of that wiring. This is not a horrible job, but it sounds like you need to learn some new skills or make a friend.
If the charge voltage is only 12.8 the battery won't charge effectively. Replacing parts like the battery and reg/rect is useless until you absolutely verify the wiring and connectors. When I say wiring and connectors I mean every single wire in the bike and every single connector. This is a cumulative problem, not likely just a single point of failure. Its like out of 20 (?) connectors in the bike, all of them are corroded to some degree, and the corrosion from the connector extends down the wiring inside the insulation for some length usually a couple of inches for each wire, so much so that nearly rebuilding the wiring harness is probably the quickest and easiest way to fix it.