GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

Hi all.

Looking for wisdom from the collective.

My head hurts on the crown of my head after an hour or so of riding. It's a sedici Strada. Seems to fit fine and is very comfortable until about the hour mark. Whether it matters, it also seems to move a bit up with wind.

So, I seriously am considering my next helmet. What do I need to solve this issue? Should I expect you to be able to return a helmet after discovering this kind of issue after several hours ling rides?

So I can't help too much because I haven't tried a lot of different helmets, but I have tried a few. I tried on a couple helmets when I first started riding, ended up with the budget HJC cl-17 and it was okay. The screen changes were kind of annoying and I would really feel the pressure points after and hour or so but it was a decent first helmet. I had an Icon Alliance for a while and wasn't a big fan of it over all. The lining was nice but the it fit even worse than the HJC and visor changes are even worse. Now I have a Bell Qualifier DLX MIPS and it rocks! It is all day comfy, the liner is plush and the chin and neck roll are great. It's also a VERY safe helmet and comes with a transition lense that adjusts to the light, and it actually works great. The helmet also has a spot for a Sena or Cardo in it if that's your thing. It is a little loud but I always have earplugs in anyways.

Most helmets have pretty good warranties and maybe they'll take it back, it's worth a shot anyways. If it is pretty new you can always try for a private sale to at least get some money back. Sorry I don't have more specific answers for ya. All I can say is since I've had the Bell I have no desire to go back to others.

The best thing is to go to a bike shop that has a good helmet selection. Once you find one you like just wear it for an hour in the shop to see if it bothers you.
Some BMW shops let you take their helmets on rides to test for comfort or even borrow them for a few days. However, BMW motorcycle shops usually only sell Scheuberth, Shoei, Arai, and Klim helmets at full retail price (I guess that's how they can afford such nice loaner services). Something tells me you don't want to spend $500+ on your next helmet.
In general I would not expect to be able to return a helmet that's been on a ride. Usually it's yours once you peel the plastic off the visor.

Thanks bluesmudge. I think it's likely the effect of wind on the helmet during a ride that is adding to my problem. An hour of just wearing the helmet doesn't cause any pain. Likewise an hour of sub-40mph riding doesn't really do it either.

I may very well spend over $500 on my next helmet if it's the right one but I'd rather keep it closer to $300. I guess I was hoping for was a little diagnosis of what specific helmet feature or shape leads to this kind of top of head pain, so I can narrow down the shopping list rather than just trying everything and hoping to get lucky.

The best option would be to go somewhere with many helmets you can try on, and some place with a great return policy.

CycleGear would be that option.  Hopefully you have one nearby, if you have that Sedici (unless you ordered it online).
They have professional staff that can properly fit you, and a 30 day return policy (helmet "unused" or in "like new" condition).


For what it's worth, 5/7 of us at the Tucson store all wear Shoei X14 helmets.  The X14 is potentially the best helmet on the market today, but they START at around $750.

I love mine, but I also love my Shoei RFSR, and those are just $400.

Compared to your Sedici, you'd be getting a more complex shell matrix that is stronger and denser, making the helmet safer and quieter.
Shoei owns a wind-tunnel that they make extensive use of.  This means a few things.
First, that despite the vents looking rather small they're actually very effective.
Second, that the helmet is engineered to be quiet.
Third, that the helmet is engineered to be smooth at high speeds, and will apply less pressure and turbulence to you overall.

You'd lose your drop-down sun-shield, but there is a photochromic shield option (though it's $200).
The Shoei GT-Air is being closed out so the price isn't bad on those ($400-500), and those do have the drop-down, but the RFSR scores much better in SHARP testing and has better ventilation.

Being in the industry, I'm happy to offer my opinion on any other helmet as well, but to me Shoei is the best at what they do with Arai somewhat close behind.

Quote from: Watcher on April 15, 2019, 08:48:11 AM
CycleGear would be that option.  Hopefully you have one nearby, if you have that Sedici (unless you ordered it online).

Yes I bought this at the local CG. I can't say I was impressed with the knowledge or advice of the sales staff at this store. They didn't talk to me at all about fit or suggest I try anything other than the Sedici helmet. I did insist on trying a few but the Sedici was far and away the most comfortable of the ones I tried. And BTW it was >$200. ISTR it was closer to $300.

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They have professional staff that can properly fit you, and a 30 day return policy (helmet "unused" or in "like new" condition).

Maybe your shop has professional staff, but I have less confidence in our CG.

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I love mine, but I also love my Shoei RFSR, and those are just $400.

Yeah I could probably talk myself into that. I wonder how closely the tangerine color matches my "intense orange" Triumph. But it'd have to be pretty perfect for me to spend $400.

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Compared to your Sedici, you'd be getting ...

Yeah I'm sure it's a better helmet in every way :)

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You'd lose your drop-down sun-shield,

I don't use it. I'm ultra picky about sunglasses, and I just wear sunglasses under the shield.

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Being in the industry, I'm happy to offer my opinion on any other helmet as well, but to me Shoei is the best at what they do with Arai somewhat close behind.

I appreciate it. Any idea what specifically about the Strada is causing this head pain? Or what is the difference in shape between the Sedici and the Shoei?


BTW when I bought the Sedici my top priorities were:
safety  .. I wanted a fiberglass shell and ECE+DOT rating, not a polycarbonate shell and just DOT
safety ... I actually like the hi-vis color, and the Shoei doesn't have a similar color unfortunately.
comfort ... this helmet mostly fits the bill

The Sedici helmet was the best priced option that had the features I cared about.

But after riding it for a while I discovered that it's loud, I never use the sun shield, and I really wouldn't mind a little more space in the cheek area. Also I am riding a lot and longer trips so I am ready to jump to a more premium helmet but it has to tick all the boxes. If it doesn't, then it had better have some huge upside to compensate. I actually think the color of the helmet is the most important safety feature so that's a big problem for me.

Quote from: mr72 on April 15, 2019, 09:12:21 AM

Quote from: Watcher on April 15, 2019, 08:48:11 AM
CycleGear would be that option.  Hopefully you have one nearby, if you have that Sedici (unless you ordered it online).

Yes I bought this at the local CG. I can't say I was impressed with the knowledge or advice of the sales staff at this store. They didn't talk to me at all about fit or suggest I try anything other than the Sedici helmet.

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They have professional staff that can properly fit you, and a 30 day return policy (helmet "unused" or in "like new" condition).

Maybe your shop has professional staff, but I have less confidence in our CG.

That's disappointing.  Perhaps (hopefully) it has changed between then and now.

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You'd lose your drop-down sun-shield,

I don't use it. I'm ultra picky about sunglasses, and I just wear sunglasses under the shield.

Shoei does consider glasses users when they design their padding.  We have more luck in them with glasses wearers than any other brand.
If you prefer to just wear sungless I still do recommend the RSFR.

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Being in the industry, I'm happy to offer my opinion on any other helmet as well, but to me Shoei is the best at what they do with Arai somewhat close behind.

I appreciate it. Any idea what specifically about the Strada is causing this head pain? Or what is the difference in shape between the Sedici and the Shoei?

Nothing specifically.  If it didn't used to do this it may just be that the padding is starting to wear out.  You've had this helmet for a few years, right?
If it did always do this, then it's perhaps just the wrong shape, but since you seem to believe that it's related to higher speed riding it may just be a symptom of poor aerodynamics and the helmet being pressed into your forehead from wind resistance.

The internal shapes of both the Shoei and Sedici are described best as "intermediate oval", and are both quite similar.  Granted, I don't own a Sedici Strada, but from the limited amount of time I spend in it just trying them on every so often I would say they're fairly close.  If you don't get any forehead or temple pressure "at rest" then you'll fit the Shoei just fine.  On the whole, Shoei uses a softer and more comfortable padding than Sedici so they tend to be more comfortable for longer periods of time.

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BTW when I bought the Sedici my top priorities were:
safety  .. I wanted a fiberglass shell and ECE+DOT rating, not a polycarbonate shell and just DOT
safety ... I actually like the hi-vis color, and the Shoei doesn't have a similar color unfortunately.
comfort ... this helmet mostly fits the bill

The Sedici helmet was the best priced option that had the features I cared about.

But after riding it for a while I discovered that it's loud, I never use the sun shield, and I really wouldn't mind a little more space in the cheek area. Also I am riding a lot and longer trips so I am ready to jump to a more premium helmet but it has to tick all the boxes. If it doesn't, then it had better have some huge upside to compensate. I actually think the color of the helmet is the most important safety feature so that's a big problem for me.

There aren't a whole ton of fiberglass DOT+ECE helmets on the market, not a lot I recommend at least.
A good example of why is HJC's RPHA series.  The CL-17 from them is a SNELL rated Polycarbonate helmet for under $150, and IIRC it scores either a 4 or 5-star in SHARP with a not awesome but still decent side impact score.
By comparison, HJC's RPHA-11, their fiberglass shell "high end" helmet for $350, scores an incredibly disappointing 3-star SHARP rating with utter failures in side impact.

Scorpion's offerings tend to fair similarly to HJC, being in the 3-4-star range for their fiberglass helmets, though offering decent SNELL options for the price.  But overall disappointing for the higher priced options, considering they're approaching Shoei money but not Shoei quality.

AGV's K5 series seems to score decently, and the price isn't too bad at $300.  They're also wind-tunnel designed, which is a plus, and the padding is pretty nice.  I'm not particularly impressed with the shield base mechanism, though, seems low quality.  The shields are surprisingly expensive, too.

Shark SKWAL is another 4-star $300-ish helmet, but I know little to nothing about Shark helmets in general.  We just don't deal with them a lot.

And I can't comment on the Sedici by comparison, as they don't participate in the SHARP testing scheme.

I'd say the best fiberglass helmets sub $300 are the AGV, Shark, and Sedici if just for that $200 value.



The biggest complaint we get about the Sedici Strada are that it's noisy, so it's not just you thinking they're loud.  Part of it are those big vent channels on the top.  It's just not that well designed.  But once again, the helmet is an excellent value for the money.
Re: the cheek space, I already commented that the Sedici pads tend to be a little denser than Shoei's.  At any rate, Shoei allows one to purchase different thickness pads to custom fit the helmet to the user.

Since we were talking SHARP ratings, the RFSR scores a 5-star, with slightly less than perfect side-impact.  It's the second-highest rated Shoei, the first being the X14, and the third being the RF-1200 which scores a 4-star with less than ideal side-impact, but it's still better than a lot of competitors.
In a surprising twist, very few Arai's score a 5-star, and many score 3-star, which is incredibly disappointing considering the company's pedigree and the cost of their lids.


On the topic of helmet color, I don't think the conspicuity of the helmet is really measurable in the kind of detail we expect.  I think anything that increases conspicuity is a good thing, but I don't believe any one color is the end-all beat-all when it comes to this, so just I divide helmet colors/graphics into either bright (conspicuous) or dark (inconspicuous) categories.

I'll pick a helmet based on crash-test rating first, features second, then decide on a color last, and I typically go for a bright helmet.
As an example, my Marquez Motegi X14.  It's a blend of white, red, and bronze colors with some black accents, but overall is very bright.  I'll sometimes get compliments on it in traffic, so I know it's eye-catching.

White is nice and bright, and there's also a possible psychological angle to it.  My RFSR is white, and I like the theory that it may raise extra conspicuity since it's similar to the design and color of helmet local law-enforcement uses.
Despite being on a yellow Ducati, the black and white helmet along with my black and white jacket may lead some drivers to take a second look at me, and if they do that then the color worked as I hoped it would.
And I've seen this, many drivers do a double-take if I'm riding nearby, and often will slow down if I'm behind them, which is something I don't notice as much when I wear my X-14.
I won't make a bold claim that "the white helmet makes people think I'm a cop," but I DO think that it's an effect that is noticeable, if not quantifiable.

But at the end of the day I don't think any rider should trust that any driver will see them, not even with hi-viz gear on.
Being conspicuous is a good thing, but it's not something that's reliable.
I wouldn't let the lack of a Hi-Viz option dissuade you from an otherwise high-quality helmet.


Something extra to consider, a quiet helmet will not only be more comfortable for a longer ride, but will be less distracting, and will allow you to hear MORE things around you.
Less wind means you'll hear things like running engines and tires a little better, and may increase your own ability to perceive traffic around you.
I can trust myself far greater than I can trust other road users.  Being able to hear a car in my blind spot is a big help to me when navigating in traffic.


Once again, for $400 I think the RFSR is one of the best helmets on the market today.  I believe the X14 is THE best helmet on the market, but it's a little out of reach for most people.
$400 is expensive, but a much more manageable investment.

Quote from: Watcher on April 18, 2019, 01:31:44 AM
That's disappointing.  Perhaps (hopefully) it has changed between then and now.

Around here CG earns the reputation of being the Walmart of motorcycle gear stores. They also have pretty poor selection and nearly every time I've gone there for something I needed they don't have it in stock and offer to order it for me, which in this day and age is pretty ridiculous. Why on earth would I come into the store if I wanted to order an item sight unseen? The other motorcycle shops, which are dealers, seem to be far more knowledgeable and helpful and additionally have much better inventory than CG. I just think Cycle Gear in Austin is not doing nearly enough to justify their existence as a brick and mortar store.

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Shoei does consider glasses users when they design their padding.  We have more luck in them with glasses wearers than any other brand.
If you prefer to just wear sungless I still do recommend the RSFR.

Yeah it'd be nice if my Oakleys with the rubber earsocks would work with my helmet ... Maybe Shoei has figured this out.

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If it didn't used to do this it may just be that the padding is starting to wear out.  You've had this helmet for a few years, right?

I bought the helmet after I bought my GS. First street bike, first street helmet. I've ridden about 10K or so with this helmet. Going on 3 years old IIRC. I do think this is a recent development, since in 2017 my dad and I did a 2hr-each-way trip and I had no issues, and it was windy with half the ride both ways being about 70mph. So maybe the helmet is changing. I also have lost a fair amount of weight lately, maybe the helmet just doesn't fit like it once did.

Quoteit may just be a symptom of poor aerodynamics and the helmet being pressed into your forehead from wind resistance.

Just for clarification, it's the very top of my head that hurts, not my forehead. Kind of feels like someone's been pulling my hair for an hour after I ride.

QuoteOn the whole, Shoei uses a softer and more comfortable padding than Sedici so they tend to be more comfortable for longer periods of time.

Yeah. I think I just need to move up from an "entry level" helmet to a better one.

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There aren't a whole ton of fiberglass DOT+ECE helmets on the market, not a lot I recommend at least.

I'll take DOT+Snell .. just not only-DOT.

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AGV's K5 series seems to score decently, and the price isn't too bad at $300.  They're also wind-tunnel designed, which is a plus, and the padding is pretty nice.  I'm not particularly impressed with the shield base mechanism, though, seems low quality.  The shields are surprisingly expensive, too.

AGV is on my list to check out but it seems that they think the first thing you do to make a higher-end helmet is put a bunch of graphics on it. I want a solid-color helmet. I don't ever change the shields and would only change it due to damage like if there was a bad scratch on it etc. Like I say, I use sunglasses.

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The biggest complaint we get about the Sedici Strada are that it's noisy, so it's not just you thinking they're loud.  Part of it are those big vent channels on the top.  It's just not that well designed.  But once again, the helmet is an excellent value for the money.

Agreed.

QuoteRe: the cheek space, I already commented that the Sedici pads tend to be a little denser than Shoei's.  At any rate, Shoei allows one to purchase different thickness pads to custom fit the helmet to the user.

Yeah this is another huge disappointment with me and the Sedici helmet. It was advertised as having "adjustable" cheek padding, which is a flat out lie. I took mine apart and cut down the cheek pads, which are glued together layers of about 5mm foam, by cutting away a layer of that foam on each side. Still doesn't fit just right, but it's much better than before. Also I took the liner out and washed it, and now the ear cup liner won't stay where it is supposed to be and I have to re-tuck it every time I put on the helmet. There's just a lot of longer-term ownership flaws with the Sedici helmet. I think they designed a very good shell and safety features into this helmet but the sort of soft features you learn to expect from a premium helmet are just not the same. But of course you never know to expect this stuff buying your first helmet, and you only learn what you want after it fails to meet your expectations after years of use. Frankly I think for a passenger helmet for my wife, the Strada would be great. She may never ride more than 500 miles with a helmet on, and a protective helmet without the long-term wear and tear features would be fine. But for a daily user, the Sedici just doesn't have five years of 6K/year lifetime in it.

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On the topic of helmet color, I don't think the conspicuity of the helmet is really measurable in the kind of detail we expect.  I think anything that increases conspicuity is a good thing, but I don't believe any one color is the end-all beat-all when it comes to this, ...
I'll pick a helmet based on crash-test rating first, features second, then decide on a color last, and I typically go for a bright helmet....
But at the end of the day I don't think any rider should trust that any driver will see them, not even with hi-viz gear on.
Being conspicuous is a good thing, but it's not something that's reliable.

I think this has a lot to do with how, where, and under what conditions you typically ride, and you can potentially grade your risks and pick the appropriate safety gear. I have adapted to use my motorcycle as a way to combine some kind of moto-therapy with the need to get somewhere, so if I have to go into the office (I work from home 95% of the time) or run an errand or just go somewhere for something and don't have to carry cargo or passengers, then I take the bike. That includes rush hour traffic sometimes and generally urban/suburban driving with loads of moms in big SUVs and minivans who are texting while yelling at their kids and driving is way down the list of their priorities. These are the types who think "safe driving" means being in a vehicle so big and heavy that nothing else could hurt you no matter how you drive. So to me, the biggest risk is not that I'm going to have a high-speed crash where impact to the helmet is critical, but more that I am going to be cut off or turned into by an oblivious driver who is wholly inattentive to their surroundings. That's why for me, visibility is a top priority. Personally driving around I can tell you that I notice a bright helmet above all else. I'm not into the high-viz jackets or vests or whole riding suit with orange and neon green stripes, but a helmet is right in the field of view of nearly all drivers so that one thing may make a difference.

That said, white may be close enough, it's pretty visible especially at night, but so many cars are white that it doesn't contrast against the backdrop of the rest of the road. I'd prefer orange actually, since it's a far less common color, but the hi-viz yellow of my Sedici is a no-brainer. You always notice that color.

Thanks a ton Watcher for all of your thoughtful input and advice. I appreciate it! Now I have to convince my wife that another helmet is worthwhile. And since I've lost some weight, and have another 20-30 lb to go, I think my beloved Bilt "Cafe" jacket is likely to get mothballed later this year, probably wind up with another leather riding jacket before fall. Hopefully my adjustable mesh jacket will get me through the summer.

Quote from: Watcher on April 18, 2019, 01:31:44 AM

But at the end of the day I don't think any rider should trust that any driver will see them, not even with hi-viz gear on.
Being conspicuous is a good thing, but it's not something that's reliable.
I wouldn't let the lack of a Hi-Viz option dissuade you from an otherwise high-quality helmet.

I certainly don't mean to interrupt here but I just had to say how much I agree with this. Even crazy me, driving around in my Turtle Van, people don't see me all the time. I've only ever been in one "accident" with it (thank God) but it involved a vehicle hitting into me while I was completely stopped... and when the driver got out, they said they didn't see me. :dunno_black:

There have also been plenty of times where I've been driving and see someone I know... and wave or beep at them to say hello... and they were totally oblivious lol! Scary though when I really think about it....


Ok please carry on, this is a very good thread and I'm enjoying reading it!

Quote from: mr72 on April 18, 2019, 07:42:46 AM
I think this has a lot to do with how, where, and under what conditions you typically ride, and you can potentially grade your risks and pick the appropriate safety gear.

LOL!  If it's me you're talking to, it's safe to assume it's basically EVERY condition that I either regularly ride in or have ridden in at some point.
Rush hour, ass-crack of dawn, city, interstate, country, small town, suburb, high traffic, low traffic, no traffic, weekend, weekday, day, night, rain, shine, with luggage, with passengers, in season, out of season, blazing hot, freezing cold, even light snow and a tornado.

So, my only pieces of Hi-Viz kit are a yellow (green?) rain jacket, because that was an obvious choice as opposed to a black one, and an orange safety vest I'll sometimes use in particular situations.  Typically it's less for being conspicuous as a motorcycle rider and more for being conspicuous among motorcycle riders.
Either because I'm teaching or leading a group ride or something like that, but I'll also use it if there are some non-rain related low-visibility conditions and I want all the help I can get.

For the vast majority of riding conditions I feel that personal vigilance is all you really need, so I guess I'm more the kind of person who would augment my kit if I feel I'm going to be difficult to be seen, rather than wear the most visible stuff 24/7.
And I'll admit to it being a stylistic choice as well.  I just don't like Hi-Viz stuff.
I do look out for reflective stuff, though.  Reflective black is a decent way to look cool (subjectively) and be seen (assuredly).  On the topic, reflective tape is a great way to enhance the visibility of any helmet, and you can find it it many colors.

Quote from: mr72 on April 18, 2019, 07:42:46 AM
Thanks a ton Watcher for all of your thoughtful input and advice. I appreciate it! Now I have to convince my wife that another helmet is worthwhile.

You're always welcome!  I'm not free of my own biases but if I have knowledge to share, especially when it concerns the safety of a fellow rider, I feel obligated to share.

If you ask me, anything that can prevent serious injury or death shouldn't be subject to "convincing".
Spending a little extra to get into something that is measurably safer is an expense that is easy to explain your way around.  The whole first type of cool vs second type of cool (first being functionally cool, second being aesthetically cool).

Quote from: ShowBizWolf on April 18, 2019, 04:40:29 PM
Even crazy me, driving around in my Turtle Van, people don't see me all the time. I've only ever been in one "accident" with it (thank God) but it involved a vehicle hitting into me while I was completely stopped... and when the driver got out, they said they didn't see me. :dunno_black:

This actually brings up a good point.

Conspicuity as a rider can be very effective through movement, behavior, and positioning semi-regardless of color of gear.

Anything that breaks the normal patterns that drivers are used to seeing.

Lateral movement in traffic (side to side swerving), hopping off the bike at a red light and dancing to whatever music is available, even just choosing a lane position that makes you stand out separate from other cars around you, whether that's off to the sides or dead center.

Quote from: IdaSuzi on April 12, 2019, 10:42:35 PM
Now I have a Bell Qualifier DLX MIPS and it rocks! It is all day comfy, the liner is plush and the chin and neck roll are great. It's also a VERY safe helmet and comes with a transition lense that adjusts to the light, and it actually works great.

The Qualifier DLX is an awesome value considering all the features, but it does have quite a few shortcomings.

The liner is quite nice, and I think the photochromic lens is one of the best technologies to come to helmets in years.
The MIPS liner, if yours has it, is also a great technology that does increase a helmet's safety factor.
The Qualifier is also ECE rated which is a step in the right direction.

But, it is a Polycarbonate shell, so that's less than stellar.  The shield is borrowed from an older, different model helmet and has a vestigial locking tab, no doubt this was in an effort to save developmental and manufacturing costs.  It's not bad, necessarily, just seems cheap.
The trap-door for the Bluetooth is an interesting move, but it only supports an outdated system, makes the helmet noisy, and here is the kicker, it means the helmet totally fails the left side-impact test from SHARP.

Bell is teasing that they'll be removing the trap-door for future versions of the Qualifier, which I think is a good move.  It'll make the helmet quieter, safer, and accept a wider variety of Bluetooth systems.
If they could make it fiberglass for $300 I think they'd secure a solid spot at a very competitive price-point.
Could be a "twist my arm" helmet at $350; it'd be edging dangerously close to the price of the RFSR, but considering it comes with the photochromic the value is still high by comparison.

Bell to me is love hate.  They are all pretty good value, but I think some of the features are too gimmicky, and in some cases they try to take advantage of the wrong features.

Pain on the top of the head almost seems like a symptom of the helmet being too large. Is it a snug but comfortable fit? I always say when you move the helmet around on your head, you should feel the skin moving, not the helmet.
Helmet shapes are usually described as oval, long oval, round, etc. talking about the shape in the x-y plane if looking from above. Most helmet fit problems are either too snug on the sides (or ears) or on the front, which means you need to find a helmet with a different shape. Or that the cheek pads are too snug, meaning you need to swap for cheek pads from the next size up. You are the first I've heard with top of the head pain. Is there a seam or anything inside the helmet that could be causing it?

Have you looked at scorpion helmets? I have a full face Snell approved Scorpion that I got on closeout for $65 on motorcyclegear.com and it's the quietest most comfortable helmet I own, and it scores really well on SHARP. If it wasn't for the fact that I really like flip up helmets I would prefer it over my $700 Scheuberth C3. The Scheuberth, like most German products I've used, is over-engineered to the point that their manufacturing doesnt seem capable of reliably producing the product they designed. Seems like a bunch of well designed parts that dont quite fit together.

Regarding the Hi-Viz discussion, studies have shown that other than Dawn and Dusk, the best thing you can wear is a solid white helmet. The color of your bike and clothing makes no discernable difference in a drivers ability to notice you. In general, hi viz helmets are not as good as white.
Beyond a white helmet, you are probably better focusing on auxiliary lighting and reflective tape for safety than the color of anything on your or the bike.
The biggest difference I notice in how drivers react to me is whether or not I have my hard side cases with white and reflective stickers. In the USA, drivers are not looking for two wheeled vehicles, so anything you can do to more closely match the profile of a car is in your best interest. I notice the side cases do more for getting drivers to respect my space than my LED driving lights. I've started leaving the cases on whether or not I need the storage that day.

This is really great stuff here in this thread, thanks for all your contributions. I really would like to try on a shoei for my next lid but didn't have the money this time around. I agree the Qualifier would be better without the integrated com system mostly because I don't use it and the noise isn't an issue because of foam earplugs haha, at least the weight is low and buffeting isn't too bad. I am actually considering the RS-2 next because it is fiberglass, and ECE rated but not sure how I feel about the flip down visor. I suppose I have really liked Bell as a low cost, decent quality helmet compared to my CL-17 and Icon Alliance. I'll get that Shoei when I graduate haha xD

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 19, 2019, 09:27:12 AM
If it wasn't for the fact that I really like flip up helmets I would prefer it over my $700 Scheuberth C3. The Scheuberth, like most German products I've used, is over-engineered to the point that their manufacturing doesnt seem capable of reliably producing the product they designed. Seems like a bunch of well designed parts that dont quite fit together.

Interesting way to put it.  I'll agree that they don't quite fit together, but I disagree with any statement that they're over-engineered.  The one's I've had the pleasure of interacting with are all crap.  In truth, I think they're just a pretentious company.  Seems like they output stuff worth half or less than they charge, but people seem to pay it willingly because "it's a Schuberth."  Maybe they used to be quality, but also maybe they've been coasting on their name for too long.

Rant incoming!

I've ordered something like 7-8 E1s for customers when they were on closeout for $500, and ALL of them got returned.  I took the opportunity to try a few on and play with them while they were there.  First thing I noticed, they were LOUD.  Tapping on the shell while wearing it I immediately thought "This is a polycarb.  I expected it to be fiberglass but it sounds and feels like a polycarb."  Quickly googled it.  Confirmed.  It's a really expensive poly helmet.
Fit and finish wasn't impressive either, just opening and closing the mechanism in your hands was hit or miss whether you'd get both sides to make contact.  A Scorpion EXO-AT950 is a better helmet.  It uses the same materials, has a more repeatable lockup, and is less than half the price.
A plastic helmet with poor fit/finish on sale for $500!?  Not impressed. But maybe their high end helmets aren't a rip off?

At least one of those E1s turned into a C4, but that one got returned as well.  Once again, took the opportunity to touch and feel.  Sure, fiberglass, but it was shockingly flexible in the jaw and the gap for the internal sun-shield was MASSIVE.  Also seemed kind of noisy when tapping on the shell while wearing it.  What's more, Schuberth only uses TWO shell sizes for their helmets.  A hallmark of premium helmets is a shell catered to the head size, apparently not with the Germans, so I feel bad for you if you wear a small or a large as you've got a helmet that's way too big for you.
Another disappointment.
Until my personal hands-on experience with them, every time I've gotten the "I love my Schuberth, it's the best helmet I've ever worn!" my reply was basically "Awesome!  They don't tick all the boxes for me, but everyone who owns one seems to like them, they must be well made."  After playing around with the brand some, my response has become "Well, then you haven't been in any good helmets."

I've maybe sold ONE Schuberth in the two years I've worked here that didn't come back, and that was to a customer who HAD a C4 already and was just getting another one.
It's gotten to the point where I question everyone who comes in asking for one.  Like, "What did you hear?  Who told you this or that?  What is your personal experience with them?  Why do you want this?  What features drew you towards the Schuberth?"  Because I can basically poke a hole in every aspect of what makes that helmet a good helmet and then actually show you a good helmet.


Recently my company commissioned one just for our stores: the C3 Lite.  It's $400, so the price is decent considering the lineage.
The padding is ok. Now allow me to stop praising it for a second so I can explain why it's terrible.

The plastic ratcheting chin clasp seems to be made of the same cheap, soft feeling plastic my old roller-blades used, it's not very confidence inspiring.
They claim some superior airflow through the vents, but when you compare it to the vents on a Shoei Neotec or an AGV Sport Modular or other similar high end helmets they're relatively small and ineffective looking, and the top vent seems to be placed in the wrong spot.
It's claimed to be wind tunnel tested to be quiet, but seems to achieve this through low/ineffective ventilation and through strategic use of padding, which seems kind of half-assed.
The latching mechanism is rather recessed and sometimes difficult to find while wearing gloves.
It does have some reflectivity to it, which is cool to see on a helmet from the factory, but it's just done with cheap decals.
There's a large gap for the internal sun-visor, and actuation while wearing the helmet is noisy and plastic feeling.
Once again, there's only two shell sizes...

But the real kick in the teeth is in the shell itself.
I can literally twist and flex the shell around with gentle pressure enough that the chin won't latch.  The latch mechanism will straight up miss the lug half the time when just holding the helmet and closing it.  This is almost comical considering that the company states "The C3 Lite helmet is made of S.T.R.O.N.G fibre, a special glass-fibre and resin mix compressed in a vacuum at high pressure to form a helmet shell which is exceptionally sturdy."  That all sounds interesting and hi-tech until you get it in your hands and it has the rigidity of a fishing pole.

They seem to do this a lot.  They'll spout off this really great sounding technobabble that seems to be unsubstanciated in reality or simply misleading.
"The shell is aerodynamically tuned, providing more downforce and reducing buffeting"
It's literally just a sphere.  By comparison the NeotecII from Shoei has obvious aerodynamic features like a little ducktail wing on the back and how it overall follows a gentle teardrop shape.  THAT is aerodynamically tuned.  Literally nothing about the Schuberth will generate downforce, unless you consider the wind pushing that giant ball into your forehead at interstate speeds "downforce".

"The comprehensive acoustics package with optimized helmet shell, wind deflector, and ergonomic shape of the neck padding make the C3 Lite – at 84 dBA – one of the quietest helmets on the market."
"Acoustics package" makes it sound to me like it should have some noise-cancelling electronics at work, but no.  "Optimized helmet shell" simply refers to the S.T.R.O.N.G. shell which is supposed to be dense and robust (not really).  The "wind deflector" is just the chin curtain that most helmets come with these days, and they mention the neck-roll which makes a good seal against wind coming up from the bottom of the helmet.  Lots of helmets are doing neck rolls as well.  But, theory confirmed, they're achieving the claimed sound results with strategic use of padding.  But I'm not convinced theirs is better.  If you're the only one using a particular standard, then you can't be compared to anyone else, so that basically means nothing.  Shoei mentions that their extensive wind-tunnel testing maximizes aerodynamics and reduces wind noise, but they don't follow up this statement with a dB rating.  Props to Schuby for actually getting a number to claim, but the Shoei could very well be quieter...  Just saying.


And how about a comparison to a low cost helmet?  We sell a Sedici modular called the Sistema.  It has it's own shortcomings, but, compared to the Schuby, the fiberglass shell of the Sedici is more rigid and feels more robust, the latching mechanism is repeatable, it actually has a DOT and ECE rating instead of just a DOT rating, it also has a chin-curtain and a neck-roll, and it's only $200.
To me the C3 Lite is a slightly better Sistema for twice the price.  It has larger vents, a more convenient chin clasp, and a shield baseplate system that doesn't involve pieces that can detach and go missing.
If you were to make the C3 Lite $250 I can sell it all day long as a "budget mid-level" modular helmet. Make it $300 and I would probably just recommend the Bell SRT for $50 more.  At $400 I'll definitely recommend the Bell SRT for $50 less.


After all this research and touch and feel experience I can't understand the people who are all "yeah, Schuberth, best helmet ever, German engineered!"  They're painfully overpriced.  They can make themselves sound good, but when you cut through the bullshit they're just cheaply made, underdeveloped helmets that have no business competing for market space with the likes of Shoei and AGV.
I can't understand how they are even as popular as they are.
Must be a case of the BMW salesman super hyped it up when selling an R1200GS because of a spiff or something and got his customer convinced that they were the best because BMW was the best and the Germans really know their stuff.

I shoot straight.  If something doesn't sit right with me I say so.
Some helmets I have for sale are backed by a spiff, some as high as $20, which is a huge incentive for me to sell one.  I don't really care about that, if I don't like the helmet I won't push it.  I'll still sell one to a customer if they demand it, but I will rarely suggest it outright and will often attempt to dissuade a purchase if I feel like they're better off with something else.
100% the case with the C3 Lite and Schuberth in general.  I'll sell you one if you really want one, I am running a business after all, but if I can sell you something better, even for cheaper, I will.



Sorry if I went on a bit of a tirade here bashing Schuberth, and know that I'm not trying to be like "you made a bad choice."  I just get this whole superiority complex vibe from them and many of their users and it drives me nuts.

First I want to clear up a possible miscommunication... Any of you reading this, if you are taking my complaints about my Sedici Strada to be a poor review, well that's not what I intended. I have ridden quite a lot over 3 years with this helmet and even now I think it was a great value and is an excellent helmet with only a few drawbacks. But nearly every helmet is going to have some drawbacks that you begin to notice or get annoyed by after 10s of Ks in it. My own experience with CG aside, I still would heartily recommend a Sedici Strada helmet if you are looking for a value-priced option with excellent safety features, good ventilation and in particular that sun shade. There's just not another fiberglass-composite full-face helmet out there in this price range. I wasn't kidding when I said I would buy one for my wife to use, a new one, if she were to ever want to ride with me.

Quote from: Watcher on April 19, 2019, 03:57:27 AM

Quote from: mr72 on April 18, 2019, 07:42:46 AM
I think this has a lot to do with how, where, and under what conditions you typically ride, and you can potentially grade your risks and pick the appropriate safety gear.

LOL!  If it's me you're talking to, it's safe to assume it's basically EVERY condition that I either regularly ride in or have ridden in at some point.
Rush hour, ass-crack of dawn, city, interstate, country, small town, suburb, high traffic, low traffic, no traffic, weekend, weekday, day, night, rain, shine, with luggage, with passengers, in season, out of season, blazing hot, freezing cold, even light snow and a tornado.

OK, I think I didn't get the point across. I think when there's a choice to be made between two different safety features, then you have to pick the totality of your riding style and conditions in order to make the right choice or compromise best. If you absolutely never ride above 70mph like me, very rarely ride above 60mph and spend probably 95% of your time riding below 50mph, as I do, then the benefits of the very best high speed impact safety in a helmet are not well matched to the risk, if that means I have to sacrifice visibility. OTOH if you ever do a track day or if I were to be routinely riding on one of our 85mph toll roads then high-speed impact would be my chief concern. For me, my chief concern is visibility, just because in the particular suburbs I live and ride in, inattentive and distracted driving is the primary hazard. So if I have a choice, I'm getting a hi-viz helmet. I'm almost convinced that white is hi-viz enough. Almost.

My guess is that the reason a lot of helmets are not available in hi-viz colors is simply because they don't sell, and I think the big reason they don't sell is because motorcyclists (or "bikers", especially) seem to deride hi-viz gear users as nerds who are overly concerned with safety. It only took me one time waking up in an ambulance half an hour after a driver didn't see me (on a bicycle) for me to put away any last bit of vanity about being visible on the road.

Anyway...

This, by the way, is the most complete and best discussion of motorcycle helmets I've found anywhere on the internet. You guys rock!  :thumb:

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 19, 2019, 09:27:12 AM
Pain on the top of the head almost seems like a symptom of the helmet being too large. Is it a snug but comfortable fit? I always say when you move the helmet around on your head, you should feel the skin moving, not the helmet.

That was my initial thought too. The helmet seems to be nearly a perfect fit. It's snug but comfortable but it's possible that since I was ~25+ lb heavier when I bought it and broke it in, now having lost just a little weight, the helmet is just a bit looser now.

QuoteOr that the cheek pads are too snug, meaning you need to swap for cheek pads from the next size up. You are the first I've heard with top of the head pain. Is there a seam or anything inside the helmet that could be causing it?

I already thought the cheek pads were too snug and trimmed them to make them better but still they are too snug. There's no seam or anything. But there is a central round pad in the top of the helmet that pretty much aligns to my area of pain on my head.

Quote
Have you looked at scorpion helmets? I have a full face Snell approved Scorpion that I got on closeout for $65 on motorcyclegear.com and it's the quietest most comfortable helmet I own, and it scores really well on SHARP.

Yes, and I am going to look very seriously at them when shopping time comes. Again my big beef with Scorpion is that their higher-end helmets, that is those with fiberglass or composite shell, are all loaded with ridiculous graphics. They seem to think solid-color helmets are for entry-level users. Plus, the reality is I can afford a $400 helmet, that's not a lot harder than a $200 helmet for me, so if I'm going to buy another helmet at all then I have to compare the Scorpion to Arai and Shoei and AGV (and even Bell), and I think they may just not be in quite the same league apart from safety ratings.

Quote
Regarding the Hi-Viz discussion, studies have shown that other than Dawn and Dusk, the best thing you can wear is a solid white helmet.

I'd be interested in those studies. My eyes tell me a different story, but maybe it's "red car syndrome". I always 100% notice hi-viz helmet riders, and white ranks only slightly above black according to my own experience. However, (and not to re-open the "Josh is sexist" debate) I know that women and men perceive colors differently and many of the suburban drivers I interact with happen to be moms, so I'm not sure my own perception is a reliable gauge of other drivers' perception in my neighborhood.

And by the way, Watcher, I don't have to convince my wife that I need a helmet, or even that I need the safest helmet money can buy. But the argument here is over comfort. I already have a reasonably good, safe helmet. It's fine until I ride over an hour, and my wife's response is going to be, "just don't ride more than an hour". Talking her into letting me spend $450 on a new helmet only so I can be comfortable riding more is not a winning strategy; she's already not super pleased that I ride a motorcycle at all. My better strategy is just to get what I want and don't bother justifying it. If I truly thought there was a safety deficiency with my current Sedici helmet, then there'd be no hesitation for me to get another one immediately regardless of cost. But I don't.

I think I have gotten back to basically where I started this whole conversation, which is to say I am willing to consider a Shoei or AGV fiberglass-composite helmet as an upgrade, but I still am not sure what feature or shape or whatever about my current helmet is causing my head pain or how to know that a new helmet will fix it. My best guess currently is that after three years of use the top pad of the helmet has broken down enough that it can be more fully compressed when riding at high speeds (over 50mph...) due to wind, and it allows the hard part of the inner shell to press on the top of my head. The fact that my head may be just barely smaller now than it was 3 years ago could be exacerbating this condition. All of this to say that a new helmet with more/better/unworn padding in the top of the helmet and perhaps one I can break in again could potentially help. So that's my current theory. Of course, by this theory I can probably get a replacement top pad for my Strada and it might give me at least a few more months in this helmet.

I really enjoy this helmet discussion and I hope we keep it up here. Since I am pretty much smack in the middle of what will likely be a 6-8 month weight loss journey, it will probably be at least another 3-4 months before I will actually buy another helmet. I don't want to break in a new helmet and then lose another 30 lb and wind up with the same problem again. So you may not see a conclusion to this story for a few more months. But don't let that stifle the discussion! :)

Did a 2 hour ride yesterday, probably 70% above 65mph and over a third into a 15mph head wind. This was brutal and I almost swore off this helmet altogether. With this much wind it was clear that the cause of my head pain is the helmet being lifted upward by the wind, not the other way around. When I slowed below about 40mph I could feel the helmet drop an inch. and it developed a whistle to go along with the jet engine level of noise inside the helmet.

So there we go. The helmet fits snug but the liner can move. The shell is moving under wind and pulling on the liner, but the liner stays put in my head.

AGV is running a 20% off trade-in deal, so I might run over to Ducati Austin who is participating in this special and see if they have a white K-5 that I can check out. Getting $80 for my Strada would be pretty worth it... or I could trade my spare helmet in (which is almost completely unused), since I literally only paid $40 for it on clearance, could get $80 back, then go buy another passenger helmet.

Quote from: Watcher on April 19, 2019, 10:52:37 PM

The latch mechanism will straight up miss the lug half the time when just holding the helmet and closing it.  This is almost comical considering that the company states "The C3 Lite helmet is made of S.T.R.O.N.G fibre, a special glass-fibre and resin mix compressed in a vacuum at high pressure to form a helmet shell which is exceptionally sturdy."  That all sounds interesting and hi-tech until you get it in your hands and it has the rigidity of a fishing pole.

This is the part about my Scheuberth helmet that really rubs me the wrong way. The mechanism you interact with the most seems poorly executed.
I agree with almost all your criticisms of the brand.  If I thought they made a good helmet for the money I wouldn't be comparing its noise level, comfort, and safety to a $65 scorpion helmet. I really like my Scheuberth helmet but it seems overpriced for what it is. It's not like an Arai that gives you that "wow this must have been an expensive helmet" feel. Luckily I got my Scheuberth  for a few hundred dollars off or I would probably be more upset by the finicky latch mechanism. Iit's one of the more expensive helmets on the market and you can't tell by holding it in your hands.
It has one of the smallest shell sizes of any modular helmet which makes it more comfortable at high speeds and cuts down on the bobble head look but I also think it's why it doesn't score perfectly on the Sharp tests.

At the end of the day, when the money is long since spent, when I go for a ride and can decide between the 4 helmets of different make and style sitting in my garage, 95% of the time I reach for the Scheuberth. It's the first helmet I've ever owned that comes close to making me forget about the helmet is on my head. It is stupid comfortable on all day rides (talking 8 - 12 hours)  quieter than a car when wearing earplugs, has a low profile Bluetooth option that doesn't subtract from the safety,, has good ventilation (I actually own the DUal Sport variant of the C3 with more vents), pinlock anti-fog (100% essential in the Pacific Northwest). It's so close to being the perfect helmet, I wish they had just improved the fit and finish of the hard parts a little more so I could be 100% happy.

In a few years when I retire this helmet I'll probaby give the Shoei neotec a try. It just looks so big and clunky. But... it seems to be the helmet I usually see law enforcement wearing and I trust them to pick a helmet that is all day comfortable.

The one place you and I will have to disagree is that a rigid helmet is indicative of a better or safer helmet.  If you are crashing into hard objects at highway speeds or sustaining repeat hit, then I agree you want a rigid shell. However, all  of my street crashes have been under 45 mph where I would want a nice soft shell and eps that is self destructive like a bike helmet to help avoid a  serious concussion. This is why I prefer DOT and ECE which are designed for street use over Snell which is designed for the track.  I don't know if the newer Snell certification got rid of the requirement for repeat impacts but in the past that resulted in Snell helmets being super rigid. That translates to less catastrophic skull fractures at high speeds but more severe concussions at lower speeds.


Editing my post to add some more thoughts: Looks like the Hi-viz vs White helmet thing is not as cut and dry as I remember. The study I could find was done before the production of neon green and orange helmets became commonplace.

"The Motorcycle Rider Conspicuity and Crash Related Injury study conducted over 3 years in New Zealand (1993-1996) found that:

-Compared with wearing a black helmet, use of a white helmet was associated with a 24% lower risk.
-Self reported light colored helmet versus dark colored helmet was associated with a 19% lower risk."

I'm sure a modern Hi-viz would perform closer to a white helmet than a 1996 "light colored helmet."

Here are a couple photos from ADV rider that may be a helpful comparison. I know I for one notice the white helmet very quickly compared to any of the Hi-viz colors. Anecdotally, I find the same is true on the road. White helmets just really stick out. Try turning your head back and forth while looking at your screen but not focusing on it. What catches your eye, more? The neon jacket or the white helmet?
(http://www.mtcsw.com/Content/BikeTripsImages/MemorialDay2012/pic7_lg.jpg)
(http://www.mtcsw.com/Content/BikeTripsImages/MemorialDay2012/pic6_lg.jpg)

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 22, 2019, 01:01:09 PM
It has one of the smallest shell sizes of any modular helmet which makes it more comfortable at high speeds and cuts down on the bobble head look but I also think it's why it doesn't score perfectly on the Sharp tests.

Odd, considering Schuberth does 2 shell sizes and Shoei does 5.  You may be lucky to have the largest size for your shell, or it may be an optical illusion.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 22, 2019, 01:01:09 PM
In a few years when I retire this helmet I'll probaby give the Shoei neotec a try. It just looks so big and clunky. But... it seems to be the helmet I usually see law enforcement wearing and I trust them to pick a helmet that is all day comfortable.

Our local PD uses the Neotec 2 now.  Has some of the "better" features from the Schuberth but turned up to 11.  The ratcheting chin clasp, for example, is steel rather than plastic.
They may look big and clunky, and I won't argue that they're smaller than a Schuberth, but I will claim that a lot of that is just an appearance.  They do more aggressive styling and have little winglets and such.  But since Shoei does shell sizes for helmets S, M, L, XL, and 2XL, you're getting the smallest shell they could make for each helmet, unlike Schuberth where if you wear a L you've got on a 2XL shell with extra padding...
You also get all the "premium" features, like the pinlock insert (not sold separately!) and the basically guaranteed quiet ride.
They're on a whole other level, if you ask me.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 22, 2019, 01:01:09 PM
The one place you and I will have to disagree is that a rigid helmet is indicative of a better or safer helmet. 

Don't misunderstand.  I never stated that I thought a harder shell is a safer shell.  In truth it's more of a balancing act between flexibility and rigidity (and hardness and rigidity are very different things).
I thought Schuberth's claim of their shell being strong and rigid was complete BS, and I thought it was very flimsy considering the money.

But I do want to explore the topic.
At the shop I have two "naked" shells.  One is a Sedici kevlar-reinforced fiberglass shell, which is very comparable to shells for the HJC RPHA series, Scorpion, and Schuberth.  I also have an Arai shell, which is similar to a Shoei shell.

The Sedici shell is fairly flexible, and I can somewhat deform it with just moderate pressure, like the Schuberth.  A fully assembled helmet feels pretty strong, and I might consider standing on an off-the-shelf Strada, but the shell on it's own doesn't seem quite up to the task considering how flexible it is.  If I knew I could make a phone call and get another display shell I'd stand on it and see how it does, but it does feel like under my weight it would shatter.
It's also very thin and light, and when I tap on it you can hear it resonate.  This does show that energy passes through the shell pretty readily, which isn't ideal, but the flexibility of the shell does offer some absorption.  Fiberglass shells are mainly good at being light and low profile.

By comparison, the Arai shell I have to grunt and groan to flex to the level of the Sedici shell, and I can and have stood on it as a demonstration.  It flexes considerably under my body weight, but it doesn't fail.  I went to an Arai presentation where the largest person there, a man probably 350lbs, stood on a shell and got it to squash fairly dramatically, but the shell didn't even make a peep of a sound as if it was having a hard time.  It's considerably more rigid than the fiberglass shell, which still being fairly flexible, and it's also much denser.  When I tap on it the shell goes "thunk" and that's about it, so it absorbs a lot of energy just through it's materials.
Strong, flexible, and dense seems to be the ideal shell.  It's a little heavier and more expensive to produce, but makes for a safer, quieter helmet.

The Shoei Neotec scores a 4-star, and has less than ideal side-impact scores and excellent front, top, and back scores.
The Schuberth C3 Pro scores a 3-star, with poor side-impact, excellent front and top impact, and less than perfect back impact scores.

I'm not going to flat out say that the disparity is the fault of the shell, but there's a good chance that the disparity is the fault of the shell...


Polycarb, by comparison, has the rigidity of the Arai shell and the thinness of the Sedici shell, but it has a higher hardness.  This is bad.  It is very poor at absorbing impact energy, and relies on the EPS to do the heavy lifting, so to speak.  That's why poly helmets are usually associated with "bobblehead" appearance, the EPS is much thicker to compensate.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 22, 2019, 01:01:09 PM
This is why I prefer DOT and ECE which are designed for street use over Snell which is designed for the track.  I don't know if the newer Snell certification got rid of the requirement for repeat impacts but in the past that resulted in Snell helmets being super rigid. That translates to less catastrophic skull fractures at high speeds but more severe concussions at lower speeds.

The SNELL you are thinking of is the SNELL 2010 rating, in which ECE WAS better.  The SNELL 2015 has been revised, and now is a level above ECE.  It is still a multi-impact testing scheme, but so is SHARP, and multi-impact does make sense as you're rarely going to hit your head once during a crash.  The pitfall was SNELL 2010 basically wanted the helmet to perform the same impact twice in the same capacity, which is not realistic.  You won't ever smack your forehead at 100mph, then somehow do a front-flip and smack your forehead again at 100mph.  But a 100mph impact followed immediately by a 40mph one?  Quite possible if you bounce, which you probably would.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 22, 2019, 01:01:09 PM

Editing my post to add some more thoughts: Looks like the Hi-viz vs White helmet thing is not as cut and dry as I remember. The study I could find was done before the production of neon green and orange helmets became commonplace.

"The Motorcycle Rider Conspicuity and Crash Related Injury study conducted over 3 years in New Zealand (1993-1996) found that:

-Compared with wearing a black helmet, use of a white helmet was associated with a 24% lower risk.
-Self reported light colored helmet versus dark colored helmet was associated with a 19% lower risk."

Yeah, which to me says that white is not really a whole lot better than black. But there's no data I could find that compares white to hi-viz orange or yellow.

Quote
I'm sure a modern Hi-viz would perform closer to a white helmet than a 1996 "light colored helmet."

It may very well perform much better than a white helmet. We don't have the data.

Quote
Here are a couple photos from ADV rider that may be a helpful comparison. I know I for one notice the white helmet very quickly compared to any of the Hi-viz colors. Anecdotally, I find the same is true on the road. White helmets just really stick out.

Certainly compared with the gray helmet in the picture, I totally agree. And I also agree a HELMET is more visible in general than a vest. It's way up in your line of sight. I think those hi-viz vests are all but useless. But I bet if you had pictures the same way with the rider with a black jacket in both pictures but the white helmet in one and the hi-viz in the other, you'd have a different response. Particularly if we had pictures of a motorcycle rider in complex traffic with background of buildings and road signs and lots of other vehicles, not alone on a road like this. Against a backdrop of urban traffic and roadscape, I think a white helmet is better than black/gray/etc. but not even close to the hi-viz colors.

It may be that a solo rider on a back road with no traffic and nothing but natural surface landscape behind them like in this picture, a white helmet is perfectly adequate, or maybe even superior to a hi-viz helmet. But what about when you are riding next to a white cargo van on a dense urban street? One big advantage of the hi-viz colors is that pretty much nobody paints anything else that color on the road, in addition to the way that particular color attracts attention.

Quote from: mr72 on April 23, 2019, 12:33:48 PM
It may be that a solo rider on a back road with no traffic and nothing but natural surface landscape behind them like in this picture, a white helmet is perfectly adequate, or maybe even superior to a hi-viz helmet. But what about when you are riding next to a white cargo van on a dense urban street? One big advantage of the hi-viz colors is that pretty much nobody paints anything else that color on the road, in addition to the way that particular color attracts attention.

There will be a few instances were a white helmet will blend in (like briefly passing a white van or truck), but the vast majority of cases the helmet will stand out in contrast to the dark road and periphery. There is very little in the world that our brain registers as white, but a lot that we perceive as black or near black because of the contrast limits of our vision. Its the same reason an oil painter will use black paint even though true black rarely exists in nature.
See random stock photo:
(https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Best-Urban-Motorcycles-01.jpg)
Very little in this photo would be black if we were up close and had ample lighting, but like the camera used to take this photo, our eyes perceive a lot of shadow detail as nearly black.

I think being in contrast to the environment is far more important than being a different color than the environment. Short of making your helmet retro reflective, nothing reflects more light (creates more contrast) than white.

I think contrast is more important than color because we are worried about attracting the attention of a driver who previously didn't know we are there. The unaware driver will likely be seeing us out of their peripheral vision. Human peripheral vision is bad at picking up color, so even if green is the easiest color to see, it is better to focus on our contrast relative to the environment and let color be of secondary importance. At night, this is critical as color perception moves from 30 degrees off angle to just 18 degrees. Basically, Hi-Viz color makes you stand out more once someone is already looking at you but at that point the battle is won. If your hi-viz helmet is in a driver's peripheral vision it might as well be a neutral grey.

Look back at those two Vstroms in my previous post and try turning your head back and forth quickly while looking at your screen but not focusing on it. What catches your attention more? The neon jacket or the white helmet? Probably about the same. Now try turning your screen brightness as low as it can go and repeat. I can almost guarantee the white will stand out more.

Here is a graph showing how we have far more rods (black and white) than cones (color) in our peripheral vision:
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/jjsDG.jpg)

From Wikipedia:
"The distribution of receptor cells across the retina is different between the two main types, rod cells and cone cells. Rod cells are unable to distinguish color and peak in density in the near periphery (at 18° eccentricity), while cone cell density is highest in the very center, the fovea, and from there declines rapidly (by an inverse linear function)."


On the Schuberth topic, Watcher, you have definitely convinced me to give the Neotec 2 a try. Maybe even before my current helmet needs replacing. I guess I got lucky on the Schuberth shell sizing because I am a size Medium, so I have the biggest size in the smallest shell but the poor side impact rating gives me pause and the poor execution of the latch mechanism ensured I would never be a repeat Schuberth customer. Thanks for giving me a few more reasons to look elsewhere for a premium modular helmet.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 23, 2019, 03:47:02 PM
The unaware driver will likely be seeing us out of their peripheral vision. Human peripheral vision is bad at picking up color, so even if green is the easiest color to see, it is better to focus on our contrast relative to the environment and let color be of secondary importance.

We do explore peripheral vision in an activity during the classroom portion of the MSF Updated BRC.  It's done with 3 people and a deck of oversized playing cards.

Essentially, two people stand opposed about 10 feet apart and one holds a playing card up at eye level, the other looks directly at that card, and is instructed not to look away from that card.  Keep their eyes front and center.
The third person starts behind the person being tested, and moves a randomly selected playing card slowly into their field of view along one side or another.

The person being tested has to first announce when they can see the card in their periphery, next when they can identify the color, and finally when they can identify the value.

Most people see the card within 180°, can accurately identify the color within about 60°, and can only name the card within a few degrees of center.

In that 60-180° area, many people guess black when the card may actually be red.  Since it's a 50/50 chance, sometimes they guess lucky, but it's almost always a black card guess when it's that far from center.  To positively ID red it has to be much closer to center.

Truth be told, I never thought to relate this to the kinds of colors we select as riders, it was always just a "gee whiz" sort of fact about how your eyes work.  The formal lesson is "your peripheral sees more things but in less detail, while your central vision sees fewer things in higher detail.  Your peripheral can alert you to important information, but you need to keep your eyes moving in order to properly identify hazards or other valuable pieces of information."
Being able to relate this to a "think about how you may be seen to other drivers" is a great talking point I'll need to add to future lesson, thanks!
Now I'm wishing I had a multi-color card deck.



I think your statements about white vs Hi-Viz are on point, and they add validity to my earlier statement about using my Hi-Viz vest to stand out "among other riders" instead of just to generally stand out.  It's great and visible and attention getting, but I don't feel it's as valuable in traffic as most people think it is.  In truth the reflectivity of the vest probably does a lot more than the color.

I've thought this way for a while but you were able to articulate it far better than I was.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on April 23, 2019, 03:47:02 PM
On the Schuberth topic, the poor side impact rating gives me pause and the poor execution of the latch mechanism ensured I would never be a repeat Schuberth customer. Thanks for giving me a few more reasons to look elsewhere for a premium modular helmet.

Browsing SHARP ratings has become my favorite "bored at work" activity, it really does shed a lot of light on who makes a quality helmet and who does not.  It's really eyebrow lifting in a lot of ways, as some that I thought would score high score low and others I thought would fail actually pass with decent marks.
It's also handy in unique situations when comparing other features perhaps not relating to safety, and when judging price/value.  Like, I think the AGV Pista is needlessly expensive, and it doesn't even come with recesses in the ears for speaker pockets!  What if I want a Pista and a bluetooth system?
I've been argued that having the speaker pockets would reduce the side-impact rating, so AGV didn't "cut that corner".
I argue back that both it and the X14 score perfect marks in SHARP for side-impact, but the Shoei is half the price and has said pockets.
Usually the argument is then changed to "AGV made this helmet with the track rider in mind, not the street rider."
I argue back "Shoei understands it's customer base, and made it's race helmet more accessible to the general public.  Having the speaker pockets doesn't reduce it's ability as a race helmet, but not having them would reduce it's ability as a street helmet."

AGV is a lot like Bell like that.  The "lower level" Bells and AGVs have good all around feature sets, but for some reason the AGV Corsa and Pista don't have the speaker pockets, nor does the Bell Race-STAR (but the "normal" Bell STAR does.)  Props to Bell for including the Photochromic shield on it's STAR DLX line.  That feature alone puts them in competition with other race helmets, considering the price.
Bell STAR for $500 vs Shoei X14 for $750, pay the extra $250, don't even argue with me.
Bell STAR DLX for $500 vs Shoei X14 and an add-on Transitions shield for $750 + $200 = $950... Damn, basically twice the price.  The Shoei is still a superior helmet but that cost difference is hard to argue with.
Both are 5-star SHARP with the Bell barely scoring worse than the X14, so that's not an arguable reason to get the Shoei instead...  It all comes down to the fit/finish, shield design, ventilation, and padding system, and the Bell isn't as good as the Shoei, but it's not $450 worth of not as good...


It's too bad there isn't a similar rating system for the US market, as not only are there some helmet brands that aren't represented in SHARP (like Sedici, for example) but sometimes you have to decipher between model names, a common practice that I've NEVER understood.
For example, the Shoei X14 is the Xspirit3, the RF-1200 is the NXR, and the RFSR is the Ryd, but for some reason the Neotec is still the Neotec, the Qwest is the Qwest, and the GT-Air is the GT-Air.   :dunno_black:

Same like the hair-brained decision to release the Yamaha MT lineup in the US as FZ bikes when it clearly didn't fit correctly.  They are and should always have been MTs, at least they thought better of that idea and changed it, eventually, but that's almost worse as now there's unnecessary confusion.
2017 FZ07 and a 2018 MT07 are the same bike?  Huh!?   :cookoo:

Sounds to me like the evidence is that you can't discern white from hi-viz yellow in your peripheral vision, so in that case white is probably just as good. But I'd like to see the evidence that hi-viz yellow is actually worse in any case for visibility than white. I think nobody wants to do that study because motorcyclists don't want to buy hi-viz helmets. I still contend this is mostly vanity, we think hi-viz helmets look dumb so we talk ourselves into believing white is just as good or drivers will never notice you anyway so you might as well wear whatever color you want and be magic in avoiding collisions. I'm still not convinced and would prefer a hi-viz helmet if possible.

It all doesn't matter though because among all of the upgrade helmets I am considering, none are available either in bright yellow or hi-viz. So I'm going to have to stick with white and hope you guys are right.

IDK why the Shoei RF-SR is not available in yellow at all, even though the GT-Air is. well anyway. months from now I'll be much more serious about picking. I have a while to decide. Next few days I'm going to work on my foot peg lowering on the GS500, which I now have a solid design plan for.

Quote from: mr72 on April 24, 2019, 06:29:13 AM
IDK why the Shoei RF-SR is not available in yellow at all, even though the GT-Air is.

Probably because the RFSR is Shoei's "budget" or "entry level" helmet.  They stuck mostly to neutral colors like black, white, and grey/silver, colors that can appeal to a wider audience than a more discerning customer.  The matte blue and metallic orange are oddballs, but since the matte blue has appeared on both the Neotec 2 and now the GT-Air 2 it seems to be a standard color moving forward.
The orange I guess was a bid for the HD crowd, as the RFSR is also marketed as a cruiser/upright-ride helmet.

That said, I don't think the yellow was a good seller in general.  Although it was available on the RF1200, GT Air, and Neotec, it was only carried on to the GT Air 2 so far, and I am honestly surprised it was.  I would guess the future RF1400 would not have yellow either, I figured they would have discontinued it entirely, especially considering how few motorcycles are yellow these days.

But, the Neotec 2 and GT Air 2 each have a graphic available with Hi-Viz accents.  The previous versions also had Hi-Viz graphics.  Apparently there is a more a market for that color in the touring customer.


Hey, with the popularity of the RFSR (we sell markedly more of these than other models) Shoei just might expand their schemes.
If they do a graphic on an RFSR I'm likely going to buy another one for myself.

Well, now this is annoying.

Today when I closed my visor to take off from a stop light the little visor screw/knob thing apparently popped off and went into oblivion on one side.

Freakin' Cycle Gear wants $18 for a pair of replacements. The odds of me paying--let me be clear here--TEN PERCENT OF THE COST OF THE HELMET[/b] for a part that flew off on its own are pretty slim. But I need a helmet like right freaking now. So I'm about to go buy a new helmet unless CG will give me a replacement visor knob for free.

I really wanted to wait until my weight was down another 10-15 lb before having to commit to a new helmet. I guess CG's quality control had another plan.

Sorry to hear about that. That is really too bad it isn't more affordable or even still under warranty. Hopefully you can find a good helmet that has replaceable cheek pads so that if you do purchase a helmet and lose another 10-15 lbs you will be able to swap to some smaller cheek pads if needed. Best of luck! Looking forward on hearing about your decision!

Well, generally good news, and Watcher should be a little less annoyed with the local CG.

I went to try and get a replacement visor screw and they actually had a non-Sedici brand improved visor screw that fit perfectly, $3 for a pair. The guy at the shop said the Strada is their best selling "midrange" helmet and this visor-screw-popped-off is a common problem, he found a source of better screws at a way lower price and ordered a ton, keeps them in stock. That's a win!

I also mentioned to him about my top-of-head pain and he said "oh hey, that's easy to fix!" and promptly disassembled my helmet liner and removed a layer of foam from a spot on the front. We shall see whether this fixes it.

While I was there I also tried on a couple of helmets. Tried the RF-SR and the Large was just a hair loose. The guy at the shop suggested that I'd probably need to get some replacement pads to make it fit perfectly. OTOH I tried a RF-1200 and it was just a touch smaller and actually fit pretty much perfect. I think the RF-1200 is not much more expensive than the RF-SR plus whatever fit kit would need to be added. And the RF-1200 comes in yellow.

So now I have the ability to keep riding with my Sedici for another couple of months and a $500 helmet is on my wish list. Which I guess is good, as long as I am ok spending $500 on a helmet.

@mr72

You're lucky if you've had the helmet for a few years and only now experienced the shield screw popping off.
It is a common issue.  Not as much of a "quality control" issue as it is a poor design.
Most commonly we see it with people who swap between dark and clear visors, as they tend to wear down the locking tabs and the screws don't secure as tightly anymore.

I'm guessing that associate recommended the Bilt Techno screws with the latch to lock them.in place.  I'm surprised he was able to secure "a ton".  I'm always struggling to keep them in stock.
Though now that I'm thinking about it, there's also a Speed and Strength helmet that shares the same baseplate.  He may have been able to order a bunch of those.

Here's hoping with that layer of foam removed it helps some, but if it's already moving around up there removing foam to me would not be a good idea.
You said it wasn't forehead pain, that's what removing that piece of foam is designed to alleviate.


The RF1200 is about $100 more than the RFSR, and for that money you get a lighter, slightly more aerodynamic helmet with more ventilation.
It's commonly referred to as Shoei's "Goldilocks" helmet.  Smack in the middle of their lineup for price and features, it works well for almost everyone.

They sell cheek pads and helmet liners in multiple sizes to "fine tune" the fit, if necessary, but Shoei designs their helmets to break in to fit best.
My general rule is a helmet shouldn't ever fit "perfect" out of box, it should always be a hair on the tight side of snug so that it's not too loose after break in.
I'm also not one to suggest immediately buying different sized pads, you should wear the helmet for a while then decide if you need different pads for it.

That's very important advice about fit! It should be borderline uncomfortable out of the box. After ~1,000 miles you will have a helmet that fits like a glove.
If some helmets are too big in size L you may actually need a medium.
Imagine doing a head check at 120 mph. Your helmet should not move.

Well now, I still haven't bought a new helmet. Starting to talk myself out of a Shoei RF-1200 because I am nearly convinced that this really is designed for the "sport" riding position and that it might be the wrong choice for me since I ride more upright bikes all the time. Shoei recommends the GT Air 2 for riders like me, and searching the internets about that helmet yields a lot of rave reviews for a non-Shoei helmet in this class: HJC RPHA 70 ST http://www.hjchelmets.com/hjca/rpha70st/

Anyone here care to comment? It's a little less expensive than the RF-1200 and a lot less than a GT Air 2. The big thing that gets my attention here is the air flow. I live and ride in Central TX ... it gets hot! air flow is king!

FWIW it'll likely be another couple of months before I make a decision :)  Truth is this will be a painful few months because the problem with the Strada hurting my head seems to be getting worse if anything, but since it's so hot this is not the peak riding season in CenTX anyway.

Quote from: mr72 on June 26, 2019, 07:59:59 AM
Starting to talk myself out of a Shoei RF-1200 because I am nearly convinced that this really is designed for the "sport" riding position and that it might be the wrong choice for me since I ride more upright bikes all the time.

{fart noise}

In this case "designed for" is more like "optimized for".  I wear an X14.  Actually, 5 of the 8 of us at my store wear an X14.  The X14 is a helmet that's designed for full-tuck race riding; from that big wing on the back all the way to how the pads can be rotated to make the helmet point upwards, it's made for riding a sport bike.
You know I ride an upright naked, my boss rides either a Z1000 (upright naked) or a Ducati Hypermotard (upright naked), and of my employees one rides  an FZ09 (upright naked), formerly an SV650 (upright naked), a YZF-R3 (upright sport), and a Victory Magnum (cruiser).
You don't need to be in that riding position to still benefit from the features.  The wing makes the helmet incredibly stable, and the advanced ventilation (designed to maximize airflow from behind a small windscreen) works potentially better when out in the wind.

The RF-1200 might be the "sport" helmet, but it's also the Goldilocks helmet of the lineup.  Better airflow and more aerodynamics than the RFSR, but not quite as much as the X14, and also the lightest helmet in the lineup.  It's a fantastic all-around helmet, and I can't recommend it enough no matter what you ride.

Quote from: mr72 on June 26, 2019, 07:59:59 AM
Shoei recommends the GT Air 2 for riders like me, and searching the internets about that helmet yields a lot of rave reviews for a non-Shoei helmet in this class: HJC RPHA 70 ST http://www.hjchelmets.com/hjca/rpha70st/

Anyone here care to comment? It's a little less expensive than the RF-1200 and a lot less than a GT Air 2. The big thing that gets my attention here is the air flow. I live and ride in Central TX ... it gets hot! air flow is king!

Re: Airflow the RFPA 70 looks about as effective as the GT-Air2.  Looking at one side by side with the GT-Air series it looks like a flattering imitation.  All of the Shoei's are more effective than they appear, the vent design is exceptional on all of them.
But if these are on the table, and if time wasn't a factor, I'd suggest looking at the original GT-Air.  They're on sale for a price closer to the RPHA70, but still much higher quality.


I'm really jaded on the RPHA series.  For some reason HJC's polycarbonate helmets score better in SHARP test scores than their RPHA line, which is supposed to be their luxury line, and ones I've handled personally seem, well...  I don't know, not overpriced per se, but they do cut some obvious corners and they don't have a great track record at my shop.
The shells seem well made, and they're wind-tunnel developed so ventilation is good, and customers that have them say the wind noise is good, but they often go back and forth between which is better, Shoei or RPHA.  I have one regular customer who swears his RPHA 11 is better than his RF1200 in regards to fit, noise, and comfort, despite having some minor issues with it from time to time, but I have another customer who has had multiple RPHA 11s, including one that was warranty replaced, and an RPHA 90, but he got his first Shoei (RF-1200) and is blown away by how much better it is.

According to my own experience and opinion about the RPHA series in general:

Pros:
Better shell materials than some competitors
Relatively low cost
Wind tunnel use during development
Speaker pockets
Decent quality paint/graphics
Lightweight

Cons:
Occasionally lower safety scores than some competitors
Cheaply made shield baseplate system
Cheap materials used for vents
Poorly designed cheek-pad snap system
Same cheek pad feel as their inexpensive helmets


The GT-Air 2 is an awesome helmet, but it is on the expensive side.  It's also made for a proprietary bluetooth system, which kind of sucks.  As big of a Shoei fan as I am, I can really only recommend the GT-Air2 if you want a super premium "integrated" bluetooth helmet with an inner sun shield.

As an alternative, consider the Scorpion EXO-ST1400.
Made of CarbonFiber so it's a lot lighter, better padding system, better shield mechanism, just flat out better, and only $50 more than the RPHA 70.

I'll see if cg has a hjc to try side by side with the rf-1200. The scorpion is a miss because they're all black afaict.

If the hjc competes with the gt-air2 at just over half the price then it's going to be hard to pass up. But it's going to come down to fit and feel. No way to test wind noise and airflow in the store and there's no objective info in this available. Feels to me like the rpha 70ct probably has more airflow than a rf1200 and probably slightly more noise as a result. BTW RevZilla review of the hjc was glowing to say the least.

Quote from: mr72 on June 27, 2019, 04:36:37 AM
If the hjc competes with the gt-air2 at just over half the price then it's going to be hard to pass up. But it's going to come down to fit and feel.

More accurately it competes with the OG GT-Air, which is still somewhat available, and at its current price is highly recommended.

Fit will be a toss up.
Feel will be Shoei, hands down.

Quote
Feels to me like the rpha 70ct probably has more airflow than a rf1200 and probably slightly more noise as a result. BTW RevZilla review of the hjc was glowing to say the least.

I haven't ridden in an RPHA70, but I have ridden in an RF1200.  Despite how small or ineffective they may look, Shoei does a damn good job with their vents.

Alright, I get it. You don't like HJC and you're clearly a Shoei fanboy ;)  Nothing at al wrong with that, you have found something that works well for you!

HJC would say their RPHA ST is the GT-Air (non-2) competitor, and the RPHA 70 ST is aimed at the GT Air 2. Looking at features it seems to be about a wash. The GT Air 2 is about 1.5x the price. I talked myself up to $400 range but $600 is just too much, so this is really about the RPHA 70 ST vs. the RF-SR. I'm going to have to think long and hard about whether HJC's top-line sport touring helmet is worth more to me than Shoei's cheapest helmet. After reading a bunch of reviews, it's hard to come away thinking that the RF-SR really can compete with the RPHA 70 ST in terms of value. I mean, the reviews describe the noise level of the RF-SR as "above average" and the RHPA70ST is "exceptional". Airflow of the RF-SR is "surprisingly good" and RPHA70ST is "excellent". However, I just wonder how much of this is that the reviewers expect a Shoei helmet to be exceptional and expect HJC to be mediocre, and this particular Shoei is closer to mediocre than expected and the HJC is closer to exceptional than expected.

But seriously everything I read also indicates a slight difference in shape which will affect fit a lot. I noticed yesterday that part of the problem with my Sedici is that I think my head is more oval than this helmet is, the helmet is more round. I find at the top of my head there's room on the sides but it's very tight against my forehead. So again, for me this is all going to come down to fit. I'll walk out with whichever helmet fits better and hope for the best on noise, features, airflow. But I have to fix my fit problem pronto.

Now that I'm below 200 lb for the first time in nearly a decade, none of my gear fits anymore. So I am going to have to replace two jackets as well as my helmet. Going to be an expensive end of summer.

Quote from: mr72 on June 28, 2019, 06:24:48 AM
Alright, I get it. You don't like HJC and you're clearly a Shoei fanboy ;)  Nothing at al wrong with that, you have found something that works well for you!

Lol, I don't necessarily dislike HJC, I just feel like the RPHA series is disappointing.  I feel like HJC shines brightest with their inexpensive helmets.
Maybe my expectations for a premium helmet is too high, or perhaps the price curve steeper than expected, but it seems like the only thing they changed about the RPHA 70 vs, say, the IS-17 is the shell material.  Same* padding, same* vents, same* pastic bits, same* shield mechanism, different shell.
(*Same implies incredibly similar, not actually identical.)
It's hard to see just from observation where the extra money is going besides into the shell itself, when by comparison a Bilt vs a Secidi is an obvious improvement in basically every way.
A $100 Bilt vs a $200 Sedici has better shell, padding, speaker room, shield mechanism, and ventilation.
A $200 HJC vs a $400 RPHA, and you get, in a nutshell, a better shell and speaker pockets.

I just feel like they could have done more for the price.  Riding in one may tell a different story, but I'm not privileged with being able to test ride helmets.  Especially not ones we don't stock in store.  Especially not when it's averaging 100°+ during the day.

I'll admit to some Shoei fanboyism but typically fanboyism is rooted, at least shallowly, in reality.  They make damn good helmets, dare I say the best helmets, and it's something I personally use and stand behind so of course I'm gonna push them rather hard.  I hate to see anyone I know who's into motorcycles use anything less than the best, but the reality is everyone's needs/wants, and more importantly budget, are all very different.

The honest truth is, while I might not be a 100% fan of HJC, you can spend the same amount on another brand and get way LESS of a helmet.
The RPHA is a good helmet.  I don't consider it a great helmet, but it's a good helmet.

At any rate, if you get it from CG you've got that 30-day satisfaction guarantee.
If you aren't impressed with the RPHA 70, just take it back.

I think I'll likely make use of that 30 day return window. Let's see if I can get a new helmet at a time when I can take several 3+ hour rides in the days after so I can be absolutely sure it fixes my issues. Wonder how ticked they'd be if I bought one of each and returned the loser, maybe to exchange for a new jacket and gloves.

EDIT: CG's return policy note 30 days for unused items. I think that really rules out helmets entirely, doesn't it? It's pretty much impossible to evaluate whether a helmet is going to work without wearing it while riding. I noticed it's the air pressure from wind at speed that impacts whether my Sedici will work. I can wear it for 8 hours straight if I am sitting here working or riding around neighborhoods at <35 mph.

It would be cool if there was a helmet demo/trial program. Kind of like gun ranges do. Let me pay a small fee and a deposit on the helmet, then go ride with it for a week, return it and get a different one. After trying a few, I can then make an informed choice about which one is best. Perhaps this is a service CG ought to offer with high-$ helmets. I can't imagine it would be more of a money loser than having to take returns on slightly used stuff that they then have to sell at a discount.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=RP0YXZPTJ4yo_Qaow7bQBA&q=golf+ball+motorcycle+helmet&oq=golfball+motorcycle&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.0.0i22i30.9500.23021..24017...8.0..0.169.3079.0j24......0....1.......8..35i39j0i131i67j0j46j0i67j0i10i67j0i20i263j0i10j0i131j46i67j0i22i10i30j0i8i13i30j33i160.brWSKaizJlY#imgrc=xcHwbvcbhAxHuM:

Quote from: mr72 on June 30, 2019, 05:17:19 AM
EDIT: CG's return policy note 30 days for unused items. I think that really rules out helmets entirely, doesn't it?

Well, that statement is designed to discourage testing helmets and gear like that, but as long as it's not drenched in sweat and bug carcasses you can return it no hassle.
Realistically it's a 30-day satisfaction guarantee.  We have internal SKUs to return "damaged" product, so if you absolutely cannot stand being in that helmet and it does show use we WILL still take it back, whether it costs the company money or not, because above all else CG stresses customer service.
Within reason, of course.  A crashed helmet is what it is, but a small nick from a beetle is hardly grounds for refusal.

If you browse CG's website enough you'll find "blemished" helmets for sale and "pre-installed" hardware being sold for a discount.  Mostly means a product that was "tested" got returned and if a customer is a little less discerning they can have it for cheap.

Revzilla had a blog post which suggested having a friend take a picture of the top of your head to determine your head shape. I don't have a friend to help but I took a picture of the top of my head with my phone and the timer. I think this has revealed the problem: my head is not "intermediate oval". It's also not "round oval" or "long oval".

It's sort of "rounded triangle". Or sort of "egg" shape where it's sort of long-oval in front and round-oval in the back.

So how do you fit THAT to a helmet?

Quote from: mr72 on July 09, 2019, 07:54:21 AM
My head is not "intermediate oval". It's also not "round oval" or "long oval".

It's sort of "rounded triangle". Or sort of "egg" shape where it's sort of long-oval in front and round-oval in the back.

So how do you fit THAT to a helmet?

It's not uncommon, quite the opposite, most people's heads aren't true ovals despite the terminology; intermediate egg just sounds weird.

You still may be able to determine if you're significantly longer front to back (long), moderately longer (intermediate), or slightly longer (round) from the photo.
But the best way to find the right helmet will be some trial and error.  You'll need to go around and try on as many as you can to determine the best fit.

I found a local shop with the selection of helmets I wanted to try all on the shelf. Only one I didn't try was an AGV but really the price:feature ratio was just wrong for those anyway.

So I tried an HJC RPHA 70 ST, a Shoei GT-Air (not-II), and a Shark modular. The GT-Air and the Shark were both on the clearance rack and insanely good deals. The Shoei even had a SENA pre-installed and was only a little bit more money than the HJC.

Just a little story telling... Since I have been more attentive to this whole "does the helmet fit" thing I have noticed that I can feel the EPS liner of my Sedici helmet pressing on my upper forehead. There is literally NO space. The foam is 100% compressed there. I think that's the source of my pain. I also noticed that the sides are quite loose above my ears. This helmet is just simply the wrong shape. Also, it was mega hot today when I rode over to the shop where I would be buying a helmet. It's a 30 minute or so ride over there and I noticed that I cannot feel any airflow through the top vents I know they do flow some air, I mean I can tell a difference with them closed, mostly in noise (it's much quieter with the vents closed), but basically the top vents kind of don't do anything. Anyway, I took all of this inventory while riding over, then walked right in to the store after taking the Strada off and tried on the other helmets while the memory of how the Strada felt was fresh on my mind.

So after trying them all, the winner is...


drum roll...


...


HJC RHPA 70 ST

It's the first one I tried. According to HJC's fit guide I should have been right on the line between a medium and a large, and they had a large on the shelf so I tried it first. As soon as I put it on, the feeling was like, "OH! So THIS is how it's supposed to fit!". The cheeks were much tighter than my well-worn-in Sedici but the helmet literally was snug around my entire head as if it was custom molded. But I wasn't convinced just yet so after wearing it for about 5 minutes while shopping around and talking to the sales lady about other options, I decided to try some others.

They had a Shark Evoline 3ST with graphics but mostly white on the clearance rack for an insane $149. I put it on with the chin guard flipped to the back, which is really nifty BTW, and it felt great. I was just about ready to whip out the credit card when the sales lady said, "oh it will tighten around the bottom when you pull the chin guard forward," and boy was she right. Pulling the chin guard down caused it to cram my jaws and just radically changed the fit. I realized that this is truly a "long oval" helmet and it's simply too narrow for my head. I'm not a "long oval".

Then on the same clearance shelf was a Shoei GT-Air with a BT comm system in it, white with blue graphics, and she said they'd do it for $450 complete. I thought this was my lucky day for sure. And it might be your lucky day too, that's a screaming deal. Once I jammed the helmet on my head (it was a large), it nearly ripped my ears off my head getting it on. And the cheek/jaw was just insanely tight on me, plus it had so little space for my ears that even after reaching up and trying to unfold them, they were just smashed no matter what. I wore it for a few minutes and really, really wanted to like it. Tried the sun visor and it comes down and touches my nose. Not awesome. I kept trying to convince myself I liked it, but it wasn't working. For a reality check, with great effort, I took it off and managed to keep my ears attached, put the HJC back on. And voila, that was the magic. It was an immediate, "ah!!".

The RF-SR and RF-1200 were just kind of "meh". RF-SR was a hair too loose in a large and RF-1200 was a better fit but just didn't blow me away. But the HJC literally felt like it was custom made for my head. RPHA 70 has the benefit of being $100 less than the RF-1200 and with more features.

One other little dumb thing, but I often park my bike with the helmet just sort of hanging on a hook. Neither of my bikes have a helmet lock. So I really didn't want to end up with a $500+ helmet that looks like a premium helmet. I think a HJC helmet is far less of a theft target than a Shoei.

Local shop even beat Revzilla's price on the HJC by about $13. I had to special order the helmet because they didn't have the color I wanted in stock (solid white). They did warn me that they basically have a zero return policy on helmets once you leave the store, so when my helmet comes in, I'll try it on and wear it around the store for as long as I want, at least 30 minutes, before taking it with me. That's the only downside of ordering through this store rather than someplace like Cycle Gear, but it is a pretty big downside. The sales lady really did work with me to try to find the right one and they had one in stock for me to try, which is something CG is not able to do. They earned my business. BTW the store is RideNow Powersports (https://www.ridenowaustin.com/). I did see a Yamaha Tracer 900 while I was there that was a pretty cool bike. When I go pick up my helmet I will probably shop around for a new jacket.

Quote from: mr72 on July 10, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
So after trying them all, the winner is...

HJC RHPA 70 ST

Cool, I'm glad you found something that's much more comfortable and has the features you want.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed you didn't go for a Shoei, but as I said before I don't think HJC makes bad helmets, just that my experience with them has been a little lackluster.  In the end the right helmet is the one that fits best, after all, and a comfortable helmet will ultimately lead to the best enjoyed experience.

Looking forward to a proper review once you've ridden in it.

Quote from: mr72 on July 10, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
One other little dumb thing, but I often park my bike with the helmet just sort of hanging on a hook. Neither of my bikes have a helmet lock. So I really didn't want to end up with a $500+ helmet that looks like a premium helmet. I think a HJC helmet is far less of a theft target than a Shoei.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  I've seen/heard reports where the thief cut the straps off to get the helmet, rendering it useless, which would lead me to say that the thief isn't interested in it for him/herself.  I've also experienced reports where thieves steal half helmets and obviously junky ones.  I do work in an area with a lot of roaming homeless/tweakers, so perhaps it's more true here than elsewhere, but it seems they're just interested in anything that isn't nailed down.  Hell, a set of rubber cones were stolen from me.  CONES! Dafuq you gonna do with those!?
If the pawn shop will give them $10 that's their next beer or hit of crack or whatever.
The only true statement is "thieves will steal helmets".  The only true deterrent is "don't give thieves an opportunity."

Quote from: mr72 on July 10, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
Local shop even beat Revzilla's price on the HJC by about $13.

They did warn me that they basically have a zero return policy on helmets once you leave the store, so when my helmet comes in, I'll try it on and wear it around the store for as long as I want, at least 30 minutes, before taking it with me.  That's the only downside of ordering through this store rather than someplace like Cycle Gear, but it is a pretty big downside. 

$13 isn't a really big difference.  The real test of the helmet will be once you get it on the road.  The HJC will all but definitely be better than your tired Sedici, but +$13 vs the risk of having a "paperweight" helmet, I'd pay the $13.

Quote from: mr72 on July 10, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
The sales lady really did work with me to try to find the right one and they had one in stock for me to try, which is something CG is not able to do. They earned my business. BTW the store is RideNow Powersports (https://www.ridenowaustin.com/).

I can see how a good salesperson would make a purchasing impression on a customer, if you get treated right they've earned your business.
That's what I strive to do day to day, try to offer the best customer service in town so customers want to buy from me.
Same for having the item in question there in the store, instead of having to order the item in.  I'll do everything I can to get something in for a customer, but if the guy next door has it there and now there's not much I can do to compete with that, other than perhaps bring that item in to get a head start on "the next guy."


It's interesting how two examples of the same thing can be totally different.  Seems like you are very happy with your local RideNow based on your recent experience.
Out here, both of the RideNows have an earned reputation of being fairly crappy businesses.  Overpriced, poor customer service, and I've heard several cases where they've damaged customer bikes in the service department (or even switched parts out without consent) and have done nothing or the bare minimum to correct the problem.
In my own personal experiences, the East side location has 100% ignored me every time I've gone in there, and it's been probably half a dozen times.  I don't want to have to chase down an associate, it's not Walmart, I want to be approached and helped, especially when there's not a simple cashier where I can just grab something off a shelf and on the way out pay for it.  They won't know it, but it's cost them a motorcycle purchase from me.  They didn't seem to have a great selection of helmets, either.  Sure, they carry HJC and some Shoeis, but probably 1/3 to 1/4 of the helmets I have in my store.  Same for gear.
The West side location was friendlier to me each time, but they carry even less gear and, for some reason, fewer brands and bikes in general compared to the East side one.  For example, the East side carries Honda, West does not...
I'll likely never set foot in one again.

Quote from: Watcher on July 10, 2019, 08:41:11 PM
The only true deterrent is "don't give thieves an opportunity."

I very much agree with this one.
People who steal things sometimes do it purely for the rush they get from it. It's not always about the $$ value of the item or if they need it/like it/want it.

mr72 I'm really glad you found a helmet and I hope you enjoy it for a long time :cheers: I know I'm looking forward to the day I finally get myself a new one.

Quote from: Watcher on July 10, 2019, 08:41:11 PM
I would be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed you didn't go for a Shoei, but as I said before I don't think HJC makes bad helmets, just that my experience with them has been a little lackluster.  In the end the right helmet is the one that fits best, after all, and a comfortable helmet will ultimately lead to the best enjoyed experience.

Believe me, I really wanted to like the Shoei better, especially the GT-Air. It's just that the HJC fit so much better, there was no contest.

Quote
The only true statement is "thieves will steal helmets".  The only true deterrent is "don't give thieves an opportunity."

I suppose that's true. I live a charmed life in an ultra-low-crime suburb so most of the time I never even consider whether someone would steal something. I just feel like a giant tool carrying a motorcycle helmet around with me. I have used a pistol lock to lock my helmet to the bike's frame, maybe I'll pick up a cable lock that I can throw in my bag to use through the chinbar when I have to leave the helmet with the bike in the city.

Quote
$13 isn't a really big difference.  The real test of the helmet will be once you get it on the road.  The HJC will all but definitely be better than your tired Sedici, but +$13 vs the risk of having a "paperweight" helmet, I'd pay the $13.

I didn't expect the to beat Revzilla's price at all. And I would have paid the price on the tag if they hadn't asked what the best price I had found was and then offered to beat it. I probably spent half an hour in that store, asked a ton of questions, had the sales lady, who was quite knowledgeable about helmets and fit, actually go pull down several helmets off of the wall, explain all the differences in shape and fit and other options, she went into the back to get one the right size for me, and generally just did the work to win a customer. It's precisely the reason everyone says "brick and mortar" businesses should stay around. And then to beat the best online price? There was no way I was going to take advantage of all of this customer service and not follow through with giving them my business when they had what I needed.

I'm not all that worried that some major flaw is going to show up after I go ride. But I will spend literally 30 minutes in the store with that helmet on before leaving just to make sure. I think I would never know how it's going to work out in the long run until it breaks in anyway, which could take a month or more.

Quote
I can see how a good salesperson would make a purchasing impression on a customer, if you get treated right they've earned your business.

That's exactly it.

Quote
That's what I strive to do day to day, try to offer the best customer service in town so customers want to buy from me.

No doubt! and FWIW, if CycleGear would have had this HJC and the Shark and a Scorpion T1200 etc. in stock for me to try, then I would have gladly bought from them. But CG seems to really cater to a slightly different customer type than this other shop.

Quote
Same for having the item in question there in the store, instead of having to order the item in.  I'll do everything I can to get something in for a customer, but if the guy next door has it there and now there's not much I can do to compete with that, other than perhaps bring that item in to get a head start on "the next guy."

Yep. And I know CG would have ordered a helmet for me and then I could have tried it there in the store and "returned" it if it didn't fit right. But being able to try on multiple helmets back to back in one visit without having to wait days for this one or that one to come in, well you can't beat that. And FWIW when I was at CG asking about helmets, literally the ONLY one the sales guy showed me was the RF-SR. I asked to see the RF-1200. And I deliberately asked, "are there any other helmets you recommend I try?" and [kind of like someone else I know ;) ] he was like, "nope. This is the one."

Quote
It's interesting how two examples of the same thing can be totally different.  Seems like you are very happy with your local RideNow based on your recent experience.
Out here, both of the RideNows have an earned reputation of being fairly crappy businesses.  Overpriced, poor customer service, and I've heard several cases where they've damaged customer bikes in the service department (or even switched parts out without consent) and have done nothing or the bare minimum to correct the problem.
In my own personal experiences, the East side location has 100% ignored me every time I've gone in there, and it's been probably half a dozen times.

I didn't know RideNow was a chain. This store actually has been there since the mid-70s as "Woods Fun Center", was owned by someone called "America's Powersports" since 1999 and only recently changed to RideNow. However as far as I can tell, it's the same staff, same inventory, same everything as it was before. Store layout is the same. Their used bikes are a bit overpriced but I'm sure they'd haggle down. Anyway, counter to your experience, I walked in the door and hadn't made it 10 feet into the place before someone stopped me and asked if they could help with anything. I told him I was just browsing helmets and he pointed me to the section of the store with helmets and said to ask someone there if I needed any help. I didn't have to ask, as soon as I walked into that part of the store the helpful sales lady caught me and asked if there was anything specific I was looking for, and it was game on. I've always had this kind of treatment at this store though, and it's an old Austin standby place that's been around forever, you don't stay in business for decades unless you do these things right.

Also turns out Woods (now RideNow) is a Suzuki, Triumph and Honda dealer (along with Polaris and Yamaha), so my dad and I have bought parts from them often and they always either had the part in stock or got it for me next day. Triumph dealers are not that common as you might expect.

QuoteThey didn't seem to have a great selection of helmets, either.  Sure, they carry HJC and some Shoeis, but probably 1/3 to 1/4 of the helmets I have in my store.  Same for gear.
The West side location was friendlier to me each time, but they carry even less gear and, for some reason, fewer brands and bikes in general compared to the East side one.  For example, the East side carries Honda, West does not...
I'll likely never set foot in one again.

Wow. Well that sucks. Our CycleGear store here has a lot of helmets but really it's maybe 50% Bilt and Sedici, and most of the rest of what they have are the very entry level HJC and a small selection of Shoei, AGV and Arai, couple of Nolan modulars. The RideNow had at least as many helmets to choose from but a much wider variety of brands and models all the way up and down the range for each brand they carried. Actually I think the huge number of house brand stuff at CG is a mixed blessing. It's kind of like the place is a 50% factory outlet store. If you just need a basic functional pair of gloves or jacket, that's awesome. The house brand stuff is pretty good and gets the job done at a very affordable price point. But if you need something specific or higher-end, well their selection of that stuff is pretty bad. That said, I probably will go there for another jacket. I might even just get another Bilt "Cafe" jacket exactly like the one I have, only a couple of sizes smaller.

Quote from: ShowBizWolf on July 10, 2019, 10:36:04 PM
mr72 I'm really glad you found a helmet and I hope you enjoy it for a long time :cheers: I know I'm looking forward to the day I finally get myself a new one.

Thanks! I feel like this is a sort of rite of passage. Just a couple of years ago I was a motorcycling noob. I bought all of the gear and a motorcycle and started riding a lot but it took some time for me to figure out what works and what doesn't. Well, now I know a lot more, and I know what works. I had no idea how to choose a helmet when I bought my Strada. This time I knew more but mostly knew what questions to ask and I had 10K miles of riding experience to help me understand what was important to look for.

I am such a cheapskate that I get all bent up about the price of these things. I guess I still think anything over $50 is an investment and should last forever. That was the biggest thing for me to get over. If a $400 helmet lasts me two years then that's like 55 cents a day. I spend so much time wearing it, it's really worth the investment. This is the same exact argument I made buying a $600 smartphone, and why I will replace my dying Nixon Mission with another $300 smartwatch without hesitation. Sometimes you just have to invest in quality of life. We spend hundreds of dollars a year on things that don't make a difference in our lives, I'm trying to get comfortable with spending money on things that do make a difference.

Quote from: mr72 on July 11, 2019, 06:54:10 AM

I suppose that's true. I live a charmed life in an ultra-low-crime suburb so most of the time I never even consider whether someone would steal something. I just feel like a giant tool carrying a motorcycle helmet around with me. I have used a pistol lock to lock my helmet to the bike's frame, maybe I'll pick up a cable lock that I can throw in my bag to use through the chinbar when I have to leave the helmet with the bike in the city.

I don't really like carrying my helmet around with me either. Sometimes I use the under seat hook. When I go to Walmart late at night after work, I'll put it in a cart along with my tank bag.

I've often thought of getting a cable lock or something for my tank bag. It's not a $500 helmet but it's the most expensive Nelson-Rigg one they had available at the time (CL 2020 magnetic mount). I certainly don't want anyone to swipe it just for sh*ts and giggles. But then there's the thought of someone wanting to rifle through it while it's on the bike and take what they want.... >:(

I know what you mean about the motorcycling noob situation. Admittedly I have 2 inexpensive helmets... and one Arai... but it's old. Rest assured though, a proper helmet IS on my list of things to buy in the future. Bottom line is... money. Single, homeowner, 3 vehicles, 4 cats... there's only so much $$ left over. I'm thinking that if I rode more often, I would have taken care of this already! I do have all the other proper gear though so at least there's that.

At my last job, when I rode to work I would just bring all my gear into the office with me. Didn't like the idea of my helmet sitting out in the sun. But now that I park in a parking garage, I usually put my gloves in my helmet, and then use the underseat hook to stow my helmet for the day. Not that its not within the realm of possibility, but I find it rather unlikely that someone would walk through 5+ floors of the parking garage just to steal my gloves and/or helmet. I always take my jacket and tank bag with me though, since there's no easy way to secure them to the bike.

When you've spent somewhere around $1500 on your helmet all in all, you don't leave it outside, period.
It can be very inconvenient at times bringing it all in to a gas station just to buy an energy drink or whatever, but I take zero chances.

Lucky for me I got everything for way less than that, but still.

Hey quick update:

I picked up the helmet today, just got home from the ~30+ minute ride home in it.

Wore it around the store for about half an hour shopping in it. Felt great, fit great, everything perfect. So I pulled gave it a thumbs up and headed out. Was about 93+F and humid when I took off to head home. First thing is this helmet is WAY, WAY, WAY quieter. Just putting it on and starting the bike with the visor up, even the exhaust note was much quieter than with my Strada. Once I got rolling the difference was much more pronounced. It's just quiet. Real quiet. Once you get up above about 50mph you can hear some low frequency portion of wind noise, kind of a gentle roar. This is with no chin curtain and all of the vents open. I was floored with it.

And speaking of vents, oh my how this thing moves air. It actually reminds me a lot of how it feels to wear a high-end mountain bike helmet. There's constant airflow around the top of your head. Talk about night and day difference. I just can't get over how much better this helmet is.

Anyway, probably 35 minutes home in this heat and humidity, helmet felt fine, made my mesh jacket feel very hot by comparison, and it still felt like it was made for my head after the ride home. Absolutely none of that upward tilt like my Strada does with wind. In fact it has basically no wind effect I can tell in any position. Turn your head, look up, down, etc., it just doesn't catch the wind. This is a very different experience than the Strada.

Last thing is the bonus, I didn't think I'd use the sun shield because it's "smoke" aka "gray" in color and I am such a nut about sunglasses, I strongly prefer the more brown tints that block more blue and  enhance contrast. In fact I really prefer the VR28 tint in my Oakleys but I digress. Anyway, for kicks I tried the sun shield and it turn out it is perfectly fine. I might not even wear sunglasses with this helmet. The Strada's sun shield was very blue and pretty much useless for this reason. I only used it once in three years and it was just because I had left my sunglasses. But I think I will probably use the RPHA all the time with the sun shield and no sunglasses because it's just much more comfortable that way and it works.

Anyway, I meant to keep this short but I didn't. I am beyond pleased with this helmet. Worth every penny.

And thanks again all of you guys who discussed this with me to help me know how to shop. Especially Watcher!

Quote from: mr72 on July 15, 2019, 11:41:42 AM
Anyway, I meant to keep this short but I didn't. I am beyond pleased with this helmet. Worth every penny.

I hope you won't stop here, I'd like a future update when you get it broken in, if you don't mind.

I don't have any experience with the RPHA70, just the 11 and the 90.  If it's a legitimate GT-Air competitor I may have to keep it on the list for recommendations.
The price isn't bad, and while I still think the RPHA 11 is underwhelming perhaps the RPHA series as a whole isn't to be judged on the faults I find in one model, nor the issues present in a specific example.
The RPHA 70 may just be that rose among the thorns.

Quote from: mr72 on July 15, 2019, 11:41:42 AM
And thanks again all of you guys who discussed this with me to help me know how to shop. Especially Watcher!

:cheers:

Quote from: Watcher on July 15, 2019, 10:58:46 PM
I hope you won't stop here, I'd like a future update when you get it broken in, if you don't mind.

Absolutely!

QuoteI don't have any experience with the RPHA70, just the 11 and the 90.  If it's a legitimate GT-Air competitor I may have to keep it on the list for recommendations.
The price isn't bad, and while I still think the RPHA 11 is underwhelming perhaps the RPHA series as a whole isn't to be judged on the faults I find in one model, nor the issues present in a specific example.

You know it occurred to me that the RPHA series is pretty new, and the 70 is one of the more recent. I wonder if the bad impression you have could be due to some teething pains from HJC and maybe they have worked out some of those kinks by now.

BTW the reason I went with the HJC rather than a GT-Air was not price, on the contrary I could have gotten a shoei for a really amazing deal. It was all about fit. If you have a customer for whom the shoei doesn't fit right, maybe RPHA are worth trying.

First ride with this helmet was home from the store, as noted. Probably 45 minutes in oppressive heat.

Since I got back from my business trip, I did a number of short trips and then this morning got up early and did a 2+ hour ride on country highways and backroads with speeds up to 70 and averaging about 55-60. It. Was. Windy. This was precisely the type of trip that was the worst with the Strada.

The result? I really love this helmet. The fit is still absolutely perfect. Cheek pads are breaking in nicely. This time without my bluetooth earbuds in I could hear the wind but it was very windy. I'd have to say it's not perfectly quiet by any means but I bet it's avg. 10dB quieter than the Strada. Also kept noticing how much wider the eyeport is. And I have become addicted to the drop-down visor, so handy to be able to put it up and down as the light conditions change like this morning where the sun was way behind the clouds and then peeked out time to time. No wind buffeting at any angle. Above 65mph I can feel the slightest hint of it trying to lift at the chin but it doesn't actually move like my Strada did. Also I got a couple of real hard bug strikes, guessing dragonflies, but somehow the helmet had no bugs on it when I got home. Crazy!

I do have one slight complaint, which may be something I can adjust or modify. The detents where the visor stops are not secure enough to keep it open if you are riding more than about 40 mph, the wind shuts it. The Strada in particular was much more firmly in its position, often annoyingly so. In fact the Strada had this protrusion on the visor that snapped into a matching hole in the helmet when it was closed that made it nearly impossible to get open while you were riding... I filed that off on that helmet.

 :cheers:

Ridden a lot more in the helmet, and it's been very hot most of the time. I've probably done 200-300 miles in it. One ride was two and a half hours.

Without earbuds or earplugs in, it is noisy enough for you to want earbuds or earplugs at highway speeds. But it's still much quieter than my other helmet.

Cheek pads have broken in more and the rest of the helmet just absolutely fits perfectly. It's cool, comfortable, light, and basically does everything right. I hardly notice it is on my head. I'm super stoked with it.

That's great to hear!  You and that helmet seem to be a perfect fit, glad it's working out.