My GS is now using at least 1 quart per 1,000 miles. It smokes and smells like gas for the first 30 seconds when I start it up. I assume its burning oil at high RPM as well.
I think its because when I swapped the top end back at 20,000 miles I didn't put in new rings but I did de-glaze the cylinders. I've learned that was a bad idea (should have done both or neither). The bike now has 42,000 miles.
I'm asking because on a trip last weekend I accidentally let the bike's oil get a full quart low. I don't usually put so many miles on at once so I didn't realize the oil consumption was this high.
I have a spare top end sitting in my garage. Should I swap that in with new rings? Should I get the Suzuki oversized piston/rings and get someone to mill the cylinders currently on the bike?
Should I ignore the problem and pay closer attention to the oil level?
I'll ride it as-is for the remainder of the summer but winter project season isn't too far away.
I have no empirical or experience-based knowledge on this topic so I'll offer my completely unqualified opinion :)
If it were my bike doing that, I'd ignore it for now. For an older air-cooled motorcycle 1qt/1k seems less than excessive. I would check the compression though and if it's low then I'd consider a proper top-end rebuild. But I'm not sure even a good rebuild is going to put a giant dent in that oil consumption.
My GS burned oil on startup even after the top-end rebuild. It leaks oil from the crankshaft seal on the right had side even though I replaced that seal more than once. This is an old-school motorcycle and I think it just is going to do that kind of stuff.
For what it's worth, 1qt/1000mi is the tolerance that HD accepts, if you respect what the HD engineers have to say.
To me that seems excessive, especially for the riding I typically achieve. I'd be adding a quart a month.
I don't remember any particular oil consumption when I had my GSs. Maybe a half quart low come time for an oil change (~4000 miles)?
A quick hone and oversized rings might be worth doing, especially for a winter project, you'll have plenty of time to do it right.
Quote from: Watcher on August 21, 2019, 10:56:30 AM
For what it's worth, 1qt/1000mi is the tolerance that HD accepts, if you respect what the HD engineers have to say.
A bit off topic, but interesting read: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/wtatwta-why-harleys-leak
As far as the topic at hand goes, only thing I'll say is that I haven't noticed any significant oil consumption or leaks. So, to me, 1qt/1Kmi seems quite excessive. What to do about it... :dunno_black: My gut says new piston rings but I'm no expert
If it were me I would leave it be and keep an eye on the level. Try a compression test and then try again but add just a small cap full of oil to the cylinders through the spark plug holes. If the compression raises significantly then you know the rings are bad, if it's the same you have top end/valve/gasket etc problems. I did this on my 89 S10 and found out my rings in two of 6 cylinders must be bad and it consumes about the same 1 qt ever 1,000 miles but I just add a heavy cheap oil and it's getting a 350 I've been rebuilding next spring :icon_twisted:
Good luck and hope it's not too serious!
My 89 with 48K was using a qt of 60 wt in 5-600 miles. If I ran 10W40, it was over 2X, when oil was 66c a qt back in the waning years of the 19's, I was throwing in SF rated Accel 10W40 courtesy wally world. But as that climbed past the $2 mark I went to the more $$$ 60 wt, just so I could put in less often.
No worries, if it run, ride it. I actually sold that bike for the same $$$ I paid for it 10+ yrs earlier, with 8K.
It did run better and look about the same and I told the buyer about oil use.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm of the 'excessive' opinion. My '89 has never consumed anything like that, even hot, hard running.
The good thing is that you've got a spare top end, lucky lad!
If you like the bike, just run it as is, and in the meantime reco your spare set... O/S pistons and rings if needed, valveguides if needed, etc.
(And personally, I wouldn't dream of comparing oil consumption figures from a Harley tractor with an OHC Suzuki). :angeldevil:
Not meaning to hijack the thread but my 2000 GS500EY seems to use a fair amount of oil. Surprisingly, none of the shaft seals are leaking though. None from the clutch pushrod, output shaft, gear shifter and none behind the cover for the coils on the right side.
However, from looking at the spark plugs, the right plug is quite sooty. I've checked operation of the carbs and it only does it for 5 minutes after startup. So, I'm thinking it's coming from one of the valve seals on the right cylinder.
If I'm doing one I may as well do all of them. Apart from a valve spring compressor do I need any other special tools for the job? I'm planning on replacing the valves, valve guides and valve stem seals.
From recent personal experience...rebuild before it runs out of oil and throws a rod.
If I were you I would make sure all 4 header bolts come out without any drama before ANYTHING else :dunno_black:
Quote from: Weedy64 on August 23, 2019, 07:46:08 AM
From recent personal experience...rebuild before it runs out of oil and throws a rod.
Yea, you gotta keep it full of oil. But it will never throw a rod, in fact it would never throw nothing, it would like mine did - barely break 80, but as a local city commuter, I would touch 80 by opening the speedometer and touching 80, heck I'll even touch 140.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: sledge on August 23, 2019, 09:58:35 AM
If I were you I would make sure all 4 header bolts come out without any drama before ANYTHING else :dunno_black:
What does that have to do with anything? I put copper anti-seize on my header bolts every time I have them off. I've never had an issue with header bolts.
So I did a cornering clinic this weekend. Basically a track day but on the first paved road west of the Mississippi. Lots of running at 8k+. I used a half quart of oil in 250 miles!
Luckily I keep an eye on this stuff pretty well. The GS kinda tells you with its vibrations when its getting half a quart low.
Still, seems high to me.
I will get a compression tester and then report back.
I cross-drilled and wired mine so they don't need to be aluminium thread shearing tight.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 26, 2019, 08:03:29 AM
Quote from: sledge on August 23, 2019, 09:58:35 AM
If I were you I would make sure all 4 header bolts come out without any drama before ANYTHING else :dunno_black:
What does that have to do with anything? I put copper anti-seize on my header bolts every time I have them off. I've never had an issue with header bolts.
Well lucky for you :laugh:
Does the fact you have never had an issue mean no one else ever will?
Burning a bit of oil becomes secondary when you have a couple of rounded out bolts to deal with. If they shear it's a game changer
Search the subject, plenty has been said in the past...........you will probably learn something at the same time. :thumb:
Thanks for the public service announcement, sledge. Let me know if you have any info or opinion on my oil consumption issue.
If the compression test confirms that its the rings, then I'm leaning towards swapping in the spare head with fresh rings. Am I correct in thinking that is just as likely to solve the problem as re-honing my existing head for oversize pistons and rings? As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with the spare head and it had ~15,000 miles on it.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 27, 2019, 11:01:41 AM
Thanks for the public service announcement, sledge. Let me know if you have any info or opinion on my oil consumption issue.
If the compression test confirms that its the rings, then I'm leaning towards swapping in the spare head with fresh rings. Am I correct in thinking that is just as likely to solve the problem as re-honing my existing head for oversize pistons and rings? As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with the spare head and it had ~15,000 miles on it.
OK I'll tell you the problem with this "fix" - even though I am not sledge.
Standard rings are available by themselves, without pistons. Over sized rings are only available with pistons. Worse yet, 1/2mm is the next step up, you can not put 1/2mm over rings in a standard piston (according to the Society of automotive engineers).
You can put only 1/4mm over, obviously not even manufactured for a GS.
Now, you can go looking high and low for some car crap, get rings that are near about the size you need, hand file and fit em. Really not worth all that effort.
Further - you cant "hone the head" You'd be cutting seats and cutting valves and surfacing the head as well as cleaning the carbon etc etc out of the chamber.
You will be able to hone a cylinder - however you're not gonna hone your way out of the next size up - 1/2 mm - You barely have 1/10th mm of wear on a normal running bike that didn't throw a rod or break a piston or something. You can easily clean up with under 1/4mm, but no, Suzuki wont make and sell you that 1/4mm larger so you can clean up all the crap and run your motor another 40-50K before needing to go 1/2 mm.
Anyway, bore and hone a cyl, service the seats, valves, deck and de-carbon the head etc etc for a full top end rebuild. GS will be ready to take on the next ice age.
If it is the rings, head swap aint gonna do nothing. Bore and hone and new pistons and rings will be needed, you can use your head or that other head, just make sure you move the cam sprockets from your current head, cos it wears to the cam chain, break that pair up and you'd have other problems - likely cam chain wearing out the sprockets too fast or weirdly or something.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 27, 2019, 11:01:41 AM
If the compression test confirms that its the rings ...
I could be wrong, but I don't think a compression test would confirm it being the rings that are the problem. All a compression test proves is whether or not you have sufficient compression. Low or no compression could be a valve problem as well, couldn't it?
EDIT: The compression test alone wouldn't tell you whether the rings were the problem, but I guess with all the other surrounding info, bad compression would probably suggest rings...
Quote from: The Buddha on August 27, 2019, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 27, 2019, 11:01:41 AM
Thanks for the public service announcement, sledge. Let me know if you have any info or opinion on my oil consumption issue.
If the compression test confirms that its the rings, then I'm leaning towards swapping in the spare head with fresh rings. Am I correct in thinking that is just as likely to solve the problem as re-honing my existing head for oversize pistons and rings? As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with the spare head and it had ~15,000 miles on it.
OK I'll tell you the problem with this "fix" - even though I am not sledge.
Standard rings are available by themselves, without pistons. Over sized rings are only available with pistons. Worse yet, 1/2mm is the next step up, you can not put 1/2mm over rings in a standard piston (according to the Society of automotive engineers).
You can put only 1/4mm over, obviously not even manufactured for a GS.
Now, you can go looking high and low for some car crap, get rings that are near about the size you need, hand file and fit em. Really not worth all that effort.
Further - you cant "hone the head" You'd be cutting seats and cutting valves and surfacing the head as well as cleaning the carbon etc etc out of the chamber.
You will be able to hone a cylinder - however you're not gonna hone your way out of the next size up - 1/2 mm - You barely have 1/10th mm of wear on a normal running bike that didn't throw a rod or break a piston or something. You can easily clean up with under 1/4mm, but no, Suzuki wont make and sell you that 1/4mm larger so you can clean up all the crap and run your motor another 40-50K before needing to go 1/2 mm.
Anyway, bore and hone a cyl, service the seats, valves, deck and de-carbon the head etc etc for a full top end rebuild. GS will be ready to take on the next ice age.
If it is the rings, head swap aint gonna do nothing. Bore and hone and new pistons and rings will be needed, you can use your head or that other head, just make sure you move the cam sprockets from your current head, cos it wears to the cam chain, break that pair up and you'd have other problems - likely cam chain wearing out the sprockets too fast or weirdly or something.
Cool.
Buddha.
Buddha, sorry I was confusing and mixing up some terminology in my last post. I should have been saying "top end" or "cylinders" when I was saying "head." And I should have said "re-bore" when I said "re-hone."
I have a low mileage top end, including the head and cylinders. I looked back into my PMs and found that its from a bike with only 4,000 miles that ran low on oil and toasted the bottom end.
Will it work out if I just do new standard size rings on the existing pistons and swap in the low mileage cylinders? Keep the same head I have now since the valves are probably fine.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 27, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
Will it work out if I just do new standard size rings on the existing pistons and swap in the low mileage cylinders? Keep the same head I have now since the valves are probably fine.
For what it's worth, that sounds like a solid plan to me.
Quote from: qcbaker on August 28, 2019, 06:08:50 AM
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 27, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
Will it work out if I just do new standard size rings on the existing pistons and swap in the low mileage cylinders? Keep the same head I have now since the valves are probably fine.
For what it's worth, that sounds like a solid plan to me.
Ditto that. Provided the compression test tells you what you think it will, this sounds like a solid plan.
I see some other posts might disagree, who knows, they say "you are ignoring this user".
Quote from: qcbaker on August 28, 2019, 06:08:50 AM
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 27, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
Will it work out if I just do new standard size rings on the existing pistons and swap in the low mileage cylinders? Keep the same head I have now since the valves are probably fine.
For what it's worth, that sounds like a solid plan to me.
What ??? dude, low oil means you really don't want to use much of anything from that motor unless as a last resort, of course if you pull and check and mic and check it all for runout, it may turn up OK. But it would barely save you pennies.
Lets see, my engine guy will do all 4 valves, seats, deck the head, bore and hone the cyls all for under 100. There is no way I'd take a chance on a bike that was run low on oil 4K or not. If it overheated, if it had a hot spot, of it has a warp in the head etc etc, too many unknowns.
In a way, you walk into a Starbucks and order a espresso, you will get a very consistent product for $5. Walk in there and order a sugarcane juice and all you'd get it dumb looks.
Engine guys rebuild shaZam! every day 1000's of times over, a GS motor can be rebuilt by a car guy, its just that dumb and stupid. Start throwing in variables, like mic this, measure that for run out, plastigauge that, check if this turned purple when the guy redlined it when it was low on oil, an you start to veer so far off course, sugarcane juice from Starbucks looks better and better.
Cheapest option = tell engine guy to rebuild your running but oil consuming engine. He'd bore it 1/2 mm, put I nnew 1/2mm over pistons, had file the rings, surface the head, cut seats and valves and clean the carbon off it and put new gaskets in and torque it all back and give you a new motor.
I had him do my F150 with 300K, I have a few video clips, It works best if you don't ask them to do a lot of weird one off's
A whole motor swap is fine, easy and saves $$$ but parts of a oil starved motor is a gamble.
Cool.
Buddha.
The cylinder swap with new rings I can do myself for the price of engine gaskets and rings. The only thing I'm using from the low oil engine is the cylinders. It doesn't seem like it would hurt anything to try and it might work out ok.
What you are talking about involves paying Suzuki for all the new piston parts etc and then a machine shop to do the work. Nobody in Portland Oregon is doing that machining work for anywhere near $100. I think it would be 10x that, all-in, before the engine was back running in the bike. It doesn't seem like the cheapest option to me.
Is anyone else as concerned as Buddha about installing the low milage/low oil cylinders?
mr72, how much did you pay for your top end re-build?
Yea, I'm spoiled living in nascar country, I'll admit.
But if you send me a worn out head, cyls and the piston and ring set you wanna fit to it, I'll guarantee you someone who will mic the f%$k out of everything and put cut it and machine it and bore and hone it, and well, if we had started this 2 months ago, I'd have got you video clips of all of it - anyway all of it done very very cheap - well add in mailing and you're probably looking at closer to 4 fig than in the high 2 and low 3 figures I have had this done.
Anyway remember, metal, especially cast crappy aluminum, has a "memory". You may be fine normally, but under certain situations it may act up.
Cool.
Buddha.
My top end rebuild cost about $800 IIRC when all was said and done. That included cleaning the pistons, new rings, having the jugs and head machined, some very mild porting/clean-up of ports, all new valves, valve seats, seals, head gasket, and ensure the valve clearance was correct. All of that work was done basically correctly. They screwed a bunch of other stuff up so I won't really get into the quality of the work but that was the cost. I felt like it was too high considering how long it took and the general poor quality of the non-machine work in the end.
If I had it to do over again I would use a ball hone on the cylinders myself just to break the glaze, measure and fit new rings myself and have a shop do the head. I had my Miata head rebuilt with new valve seats, grind the valves, clean and decked for, IIRC, like $150? Included new valve seals. I think I could probably get a twin moto head done for the same kind of price. Add to that a head gasket kit and the cost of all new valves ($20-30/ea) and I think it's a DIY job for $300 or less. I only had the shop do it because a) I was hoping to form a relationship with a very local shop who I might be able to use in the long run (fat chance, this shop sucks), and b) they already had the bike apart looking for the other issue when they called and made the quote, so I thought the quickest way to get it back on the road was to let them finish.. turns out it took two months but anyway... again hindsight 20/20 ... if I knew then what I know now, I would have done it myself.
I pulled the trigger and dropped my bike off at a local shop for a top end rebuild. It's going to be a stupid amount of money but I realized I really love this motorcycle and want it done right. They will check in with me through the entire process and at the end they will get the carbs dialed in on their dyno to make sure a lean condition isn't contributing to the engine wear.
I wouldn't have gone this route but my bike was recently knocked over and totaled (just a bunch of small cosmetic things).. I bought t back for $400 and can use the remainder to get this rebuild done. I feel good supporting the local shop with some real engine work for the winter.
I'll let you know how the process goes. This is my first time using a shop outside of emergency road trip repairs.
My GS500 engine rebuild is complete and the bike is back home!
The bike ended up needing new exhaust valves and rings. They also checked on my clutch at my request (still well within spec), did safety check, and cleaned up some broken bolts and messy wiring I've been too lazy to fix.
After the rebuild the bike got put on the dyno for tuning. Even with 44,000 miles my '06 GS500F running like new again and making a full 40 hp at the wheel with Vance & Hines exhaust, foam Uni filter and Dyno jet kit. I know many on this forum stick with mikuni jets. The shop was adamant that Dynojet was the way to go. Well, the dyno graph doesn't lie. I'll have to scan them and post here. They put my idle jet back to stock and played with the Dynojet kit until the fueling was spot on across a variety of throttle positions. Bike warms up like it should and makes good power (for a GS500). Bike still smells a little rich while warming up with the choke but I think that's normal and the plume of oily smoke is gone.
Shop recommended changing oil after 100 miles but otherwise, "just ride it."
These guys know what they are doing. If anyone lives near Portland Oregon I recommend CycleTune PDX.
After a few thousand miles I will report back to confirm the degree to which the rebuild fixed oil consumption. Before the rebuild I was consuming a quart or more per 1,000 miles. Running hard it was a quart in 300 miles.
In two weeks I start a new job that does not have a company vehicle, the GS500 is going back to commute duty and will be getting a lot of miles. I've had the luxury of driving a RAM 1500 for free the last 6 years. Hopefully the GS500 is up to the task. The roads are a scarier place compared to when I commuted on the GS500 2009 - 2012. Cars are faster and everyone is using cell phones.
Glad to hear the shop did a good job for you! Should be ready to go for a long time now since the bottom ends hardly ever wear out as far as I know.
I love the local shops and have used a local machine shop that builds drag cars all the way down to small engine repair. My college money scheme is to buy Mitsubishi, Honda, Toyota, and Subaru cars that have snapped timing belts and pick them up for cheap, then pull the head and if its in good shape have the shop throw new valves and guides in then reassemble with new gaskets and sell. Its always been a joy working with them, so glad you found a good one in your area.
Good luck with the commuting! I'll be dragging my bike out of storage for commuting duty soon and can't wait.
Oh cool bluesmudge, enjoy, didn't realize you got 44K on an 06 nice going man.
Now I had 1 89 gs dyno at 44+ back in 98 with home made D&D slip on (can was D&D fitted up by muffler shop on stock header), and mikuni and K&N lunch box. This bike had 30K+ miles when I did this.
I had a stock air box one a 1990 with just a slip on again home made, and jetted to 40/125 come in at 42.8 and this bike always felt faster and more powerful than the first one. This bike also had just about 2000 miles when I did this.
In any case the bike will make more power with a few 100 to 1000 or so more miles. I don't even know why they would dyno a bike that's just been built. But of course the bottom end bearings etc are well worn, just the top end will have to break in, its likely its pretty much at its max as well.
Cool.
Buddha.