So, I've no idea what's happening here. I was checking the valve clearances and got to following results:
Right exhaust: 0.06
Left exhaust: 0.04
Right intake: less than 0.04
Left intake: 0.04
After taking the shims out to check their sizes, then putting them back in, I now have the following way too high clearance
Right exhaust: 0.45 (not a typo)
Left exhaust 0.5
Right intake: less than 0.04
Left intake: 0.5
Any idea why the clearances have gone off the charts?
Thanks
All measurements in mm
How did you clean them ? Usually clearance drops due to oil filling the bucket and lifting the shim.
You think you have valves hanging open ? That's all that can cause the clearance to go up. Turn the motor over a few times and see if it goes back to the original numbers or close enough. If so, you have valves sticking open, potentially something you need to address with oil or gas additive.
Cool.
Buddha.
When I say I cleaned them I mean I just wiped them with a cloth to measure with a vernier. Nothing more. I've advanced the engine half a dozen times manually with no change. Or are you saying to reassemble and start it up?
Thanks
I've just realised I may have totally f****d up. I used a screwdriver to keep the bucket held down after the lobe had depressed it. Advanced the engine to removed and replaced the shim, then advanced the motor one revolution to get it back to where the lobe is depressing it again and removed the screwdriver.
Yeah sounds like you may have bent the valve with contact with the piston.
After searching deeper on that, sounds like you're right. Damn it, what a nightmare! Any suggestions on next move. Easier just to replace the whole head than fluff around with the fixing potential damage to valves and pistons etc? I'm doubting my mechanical abilities after this stupid mistake.
I should note that they were not bent before this and I haven't run the engine, just manually turned it about 10 times. Could this be some sort of saving grace? Potential to just pop new valves in?
Thanks 👍
Are the camshaft bearing caps all tight?
Yep, all tight. I think mr72 is right. Due to my misinterpretation of the process I held the shim basket down one full rotation of the motor. So in hindsight the piston will have hit the valves. I did this for all four :cry: :hithead:
What should I do now?
Thanks
I think if you confirm the valves are bent, you have little choice. Pull the head, replace the valves. Might as well go full top end rebuild while it's open IMHO.
One way or the other I think you have to pull the head to even evaluate the valves.
Sounds like a job for an actual mechanic I'm thinking. Can I take the top end off and just give them that without taking the engine out?
Thanks
Could this be my best option?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Suzuki-GS500E-99-06-Cylinder-head-and-camshafts-/324789603944?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0
I think you would have to rebuild the used head to be confident in it, and you already have a used head.
You can pull the head and the jug with the engine in place. I haven't done this myself but watched a pro mechanic do it very slowly and at extremely high cost. If I had it to do over again I'd do it myself. You'll need a machine shop to do the valve seats, new valves, and if you want to do the whole thing, a hone and new rings.
When I had it done here in Texas it cost $1k ish. Nowadays it'd be 50% more, which is perilously close to the value of the motorcycle. DIY it'd be a couple hundred bucks and I keep the tools and have a cool story for my blog.
I've done it both ways:
1. Swapping a used head in myself with the engine still in the frame (honing cylinders, replacing all gaskets, etc).
2. Having a shop to a top end rebuild with new rings, valves, valve seals, etc
Option 1 was much cheaper (~$400 in new and used parts and tools vs $~2,000 for the shop's work). The mistake I made with option 1 was not replacing the piston rings, so within 20,000 miles the engine was burning ungodly amount of oil, which brought me to option 2. I think if I had replaced the piston rings option 1 would have worked out better. But I did option 1 ten years ago, when you could more easily find recent/low mileage heads. Today a used head is more likely to be high mileage and have dried out valve seals so they may need a top end rebuild anyways. Option 1 is a gamble.
Yeah Bluesmudge the third option is farm out the machine work and do the top end rebuild yourself. It's not any more work than your option 1, and cheaper if you have to recondition any used head you get used anyway.
IDK what current machine shop rates are but 7 years ago when I had my Miata head done it was under $200 for the whole cylinder head reman on a 4yl 16V head, but it didn't need any new valves. Certainly a motorcycle twin head can't be any more expensive than this. I think my new valves were $30 each for the GS.
This all has me considering that 904cc kit for my Bonneville... 100 rwhp sure sounds good.
Thanks for taking the time guys.
So regardless, first step is to remove the head. The bike has only done 10k KMs and was running like a dream until I stuffed up. Having bent the valves, but not actually run the engine with them bent (although manually turned it several times), is it not simply a matter pulling the bent valves out and putting new ones in? Or is there likely more damage and complications?
Thanks again
I think you have to machine the valve seats, and while the head is off you might as well do the valve stem seals, clean everything, inspect the piston for potential cracks due to the valve contact, etc.
And it's just another relatively easy step to pull the jug, hone the bores, and put in new rings. I just can't imagine going to all the work of pulling the head without doing this last bit if it hasn't been done in a while. With only 10k km I can see why you might be inclined to skip it. Hard to say unless you happened to do a compression check before you bent the valves.
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 02, 2022, 02:30:58 PM
Thanks for taking the time guys.
So regardless, first step is to remove the head. The bike has only done 10k KMs and was running like a dream until I stuffed up. Having bent the valves, but not actually run the engine with them bent (although manually turned it several times), is it not simply a matter pulling the bent valves out and putting new ones in? Or is there likely more damage and complications?
Thanks again
If you bent a valve you won't have any compression on that cylinder. Do you feel any compression resistance when you turn the motor by hand?
There's definitely resistance when turning by hand. How do I knownif it's due to compression though?
Thanks
Pretty much made the same mistake as Ed89 in this thread
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13248.msg111746#msg111746
So I'm guessing I've got 4 bent valves. Anything else worth trying before I pull the head off?
Cheers
Regardless of what other people suggest you do its your choice and it depends on how much money you want to throw at it. Take a chance on a used one or get yours reworked professionally. I doubt you will have the kit knowledge or experience to do it yourself.....at least properly. Furthermore once the head is off you might even find some valve seat, valve guide or even piston damage which will complicate the situation even further
But in saying all that, right now your biggest concern is getting the header bolts out without any drama :dunno_black:
Yeah its good to be honest with your mechanical ability, your understanding of the engine, but also your finances.
If you don't need the bike for transportation and have more time than money, you can really take your time and learn as you go. If you somehow screw it up even further then at least you will know you learned something in the process.
I know I learned a ton replacing the head on mine. Before that I had no real idea how a 4 cylinder internal combustion engine worked. I didn't do the job perfectly but it was good enough for another 20,000 miles until I could afford to have an expert look at it. The choice is yours and we are here to help you along the way.
There are good Youtube video and the Haynes/Clymer manuals walk you through it all.
'I doubt you will have the kit knowledge or experience to do it yourself.....at least properly'
Correct, correct and correct!
I certainly won't be reconditioning the head myself. I'll take it off and get a quote from a mechanic to fix it. Otherwise I have found a low km head for $300 AU that I'll put on instead. Time or money are a huge concern, but having said that I'm not prepared to spend thousands on it, but I want to get back on it as soon as possible. Haynes manual is on its way and I've got the Suzuki arrive manual.
I really do appreciate everyone's time and help 👍
Is there anyone in Oz that has a ball park figure that a mechanic would charge if I took the head in?
Thanks all
So I can buy a low KMs full cylinder head off a highly rated wrecker on eBay. No leaks when filled with water upside down, so I assume the valves have a good seal. He has just pulled it off the engine today, but it hasn't been run for 5 years. Thoughts on potential issues with sitting for that long? I realise it's always going to be a gamble
Thanks
I am in same boat, I did not think to wreck mine with a screwdriver, I used a tie wrap head in the plug hole.
The rubber valve stem seals are an age item. I bought new viton seals to go with my new valve for very low $. My new seals are blue.
The other parts arrive in a week and I do my own reconditioning.
If I saw a clean black painted 89-90 head, I might buy it.
More than one wrong way to skin a cat!
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 03, 2022, 05:44:15 PMNo leaks when filled with water upside down
Water??? So now there is a chance of flash rusting :dunno_black:
Next time use petrol/gas :thumb:
Well, 'liquid' was the term used, I just interpreted it as water. Anyway, I bought it and should arrive midweek and I'll take it from there. I'm assuming it'll be top notch because I'm choosing to be positive. Regarding gaskets, I'll need the cylinder head gasket, and from other posts I've read I should get the cylinder base gasket also as that can sometimes sperate when removing the head? Anything else? I'll take the current head off tomorrow. I couldn't find any instructions to remove while still in the bike. If I remove the carbs and exhaust should it be just the same process as when out of the bike?
Sounds like you are on the right track. I'd replace the valve stem seals on the replacement head just because they are cheap and you have it on the bench.
When the head is off look at the pistons and see if you have any impact divots from the valves, if not, you're OK.
And it may be worth getting the cyls honed etc like bluesmudge said, the GS motor is built loose from the factory, you may be running into the same problem as he did in short order.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 04, 2022, 01:11:15 AM
Regarding gaskets, I'll need the cylinder head gasket, and from other posts I've read I should get the cylinder base gasket also as that can sometimes sperate when removing the head? Anything else?
You definitely want a new base gasket and piston rings and a cylinder honing tool because you really want to be honing the cylinders and putting in new rings if you are that deep in the top end already. You can probably rent the honing tool from an auto parts store. Its a simple tool that attaches to an electric drill and takes ~5 seconds going in and out per cylinder to hone.
You will also want new viton valve seals because the head thats been sitting for 5 years will need them (get a shop to that part). The new seals are optional but after all this work it will be nice to not be blowing a cloud of oil out the exhaust every time you start the engine.
Then you need the copper washers that the cylinder head nuts sit on.I think there are 6 of them? Check the parts fiche.
You also might as well replace the valve cover gasket and valve cover allen bolt o-rings.
You will probably also end up needing some additional shim sizes but wait until you know your clearances to order those.
Also spend the $15 on the motion pro shim tool that would have avoided this whole scenario in the first place.
You definitely want a new base gasket and piston rings and a cylinder honing tool because you really want to be honing the cylinders and putting in new rings.
At 10K Km (6200 miles) Really :icon_question: :icon_question:
You people kill me :D What you would do is of no consequence, its what he is capable off and needs to do that matters.
Appreciate you want to help him but this is a guy who by his own admission has nothing and knows nothing!!
The best advice anyone can give him is to read the manual and let him decide what he is comfortable with instead of making the job more complicated than it needs to be and scaring him. Furthermore its a low mileage head he is buying so is there any need to be concerned over the stem seals. They don't dry out just like the ones that sit on parts shelves for months/years dont and unless the cylinder block moves there is no need to change the base gasket.
Frankie?
Buy the head
Buy and read a manual......I find Haynes to be the best. It covers the whole process in section 2:15
Buy a gasket set like this. https://www.mandp.co.uk/products/gs500e-89-00-full-gasket-set-511609 (https://www.mandp.co.uk/products/gs500e-89-00-full-gasket-set-511609)
Get some tools together including a good torque wrench
Be very careful getting the header bolts out, they are prone to seizing and rounding off
Dont forget about the bolt at the front of the head. #10 in the drawing.
Be aware there may be piston damage.
(https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/suzuki-gs500e-1996-t-e02-e04-e18-e22-e24-e25-e34-cylinder-head_bigsue0048fig-2_ad07.gif)
Sledge - The GS motor has sloppy and loose rings right from the factory. So many many of these use oil basically from 10K or less. And its a problem shared by a lot of jap bikes with Intruder 1400 and vulcan 1500's being notorious for using a quart between changes and having the manual say that its "normal".
Cool.
Buddha.
Here's something to watch while you wait for parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X0VwcdZq7M&t=1s
You can pull the head with the engine in the frame, as long as you clear some space by unplugging some of the harness connectors.
As long as you DO NOT turn the motor with the head removed you don't need to replace a non-leaking base gasket at 10k IMO. You DO need to replace the
special copper crush washers under the head bolts, and you need a new head gasket.
With the head removed you will be able to see a section of the cylinder wall on one side or the other (don't move the motor to look at the other side lol)
Unless you see big scratches, or it's polished like a mirror, I would leave it alone. Removing the block makes this job exponentially more difficult. At such low
mileage I would not expect to see any big problems unless the bike had been seriously abused.
Okay, head is off without too much drama!
Three bent valves as suspected.
So looking on the bright side, I didn't take it off for nothing. Gotta take the little wins where you can
Thanks to BaltimoreGS for the good video
According to their video taking off the cylinder block and checking the piston is pretty simple. If there is damage i replace the pistons and take the block to the shop to hone? How does that sound?
Cheers all 👍
Appreciate
Good job, now you have a spare head :)
Use the BaltimoreGS socket trick to pop out the cotters and you can pull the bad valves
and check the condition of the seats. If damaged, the seats can easily be re-cut at a good shop.
Check the tops of the pistons, can you see impact spots? Likely nothing more than scuffs in the carbon.
At hand rotation speed you are probably not generating enough force to do serious damage, more of a
vise-like bending action than a hammer strike.
[quote author=chris900f link=topic=73910.msg886427#msg886427 date=1646437531
You DO need to replace the
special copper crush washers under the head bolts, and you need a new head gasket.
[/quote]
In addition the 4 o-rings item #9 on the drawing
Cool, I'll order the gasket kit as suggested. Sledge, the engine remained the same from 2004 onwards right? Just that I can't find any kits for the 2010 model specifically. I've no doubt replacing the copper washers is a good idea, and they're only a few dollars. My question is why? They seem perfectly fine. Is it something to do with the amount they can compress, once tensioned once they don't compress any more? Chris, I'll post some photos of the piston tops tomorrow. They seem fine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt it damage the sides of the pistons that would be the issue, not the top?
Once again, thanks all
The copper washers, along with every other seal and gasket you need will be included in the kit. Sell the ones you dont use on ebay if you can be bothered
Unless the pistons are cracked or there are significant pieces of them missing! leave them and the block alone. A few dents on the tops are not going to be an issue. You are just making unnecessary work for yourself, spending more time and money than you need to and complicating a relatively easy job.
If you took your bike to a shop and asked them to just swap the heads over and they came back to you saying "You gotta change the pistons and rings, you gotta hone the bores, you gotta change the base gasket, you gotta do the valve seals and lap them in......etc etc etc. They would be branded as con artists!!!
Chris, for some reason your second last post only just turned up for me. Luckily I haven't turned the motor. The visibal cylinder wall looks nicely cross hatched with no scratches. I managed to wiggle the the head out but I think I'll make some more room to get it back in. Sledge, no cracks or missing pieces in the pi6atons. I'll order the full gasket kit. I wasn't concerned about the $$$ for the washers, just wondering about the engineering reason behind replacing them Really I just want to get back out on the road.
To add insult to injury, saddle bags I ordered before all this business arrived in the mail today. They look great sitting on the sofa 🙄. Anyway, head and Haynes manual should arrive this week, and hopefully the gaskets.. On that topic, is generic gasket goo sealent fine (from my car) or is there specific specs for motorcycles?
You wont need any `gasket goo`......again.....every seal and gasket you will need will be in the kit.
YOU WILL need a decent torque wrench that can accommodate 40Nm
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 05, 2022, 04:17:19 AM
To add insult to injury, saddle bags I ordered before all this business arrived in the mail today. They look great sitting on the sofa 🙄.
Saddlebags huh. Well if the missus is a slight little thing you can mount em on her to check if its a "yay" or "nay" if she'd gain weight.
Just do it on a warm night, so the garage or driveway or back yard is comfortable.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 05, 2022, 04:17:19 AM
The visibal cylinder wall looks nicely cross hatched with no scratches.
That's great news, your cylinders are good shape, so that should cut your down-time significantly. The only place you
need to use sealer is the valve-cover gasket, and you don't need much. Honda sells HondaBond, Yamaha sells Yamabond etc
they are all the same product. Threebond 1194 (grey gasket goo)
Quote from: The Buddha on March 05, 2022, 04:08:36 PM
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 05, 2022, 04:17:19 AM
To add insult to injury, saddle bags I ordered before all this business arrived in the mail today. They look great sitting on the sofa 🙄.
Saddlebags huh. Well if the missus is a slight little thing you can mount em on her to check if its a "yay" or "nay" if she'd gain weight.
Just do it on a warm night, so the garage or driveway or back yard is comfortable.
Cool.
Buddha.
A safer test run
Nice. Animeal cruelty something something. And he gets to stay in the doghouse.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'd suggest to not use a silicone sealer like threebond on the valve cover rubber seal, it will either get glued and destroyed when you remove it or it will fill the grooves on the head/cover and you will take hours to scrape it off next time you do your valves.
I'd suggest something like Hylomar (thin smear on both sides of the gasket, let the solvent flash off for 10 minutes and then assemble). The hylomar can be easily cleaned off and will not cause the seal to get damaged on disassembly.
Quote from: herennow on March 06, 2022, 01:51:31 PM
I'd suggest to not use a silicone sealer like threebond on the valve cover rubber seal, it will either get glued and destroyed when you remove it or it will fill the grooves on the head/cover and you will take hours to scrape it off next time you do your valves.
I'd suggest something like Hylomar (thin smear on both sides of the gasket, let the solvent flash off for 10 minutes and then assemble). The hylomar can be easily cleaned off and will not cause the seal to get damaged on disassembly.
I've used Hondabond and Threebond. The main reason the manufacturers re-brand this stuff for use in their dealerships is that it is so easy to remove/clean up. A little actetone or MEK, and it comes right off.
I've never used anything on the valve cover gasket. Its such a nice squishy o-ring type seal already, what would something like Hondabond be accomplishing? 54,000 miles and I've never had the valve cover gasket leak.
Bluesmudge, maybe if you had a valve cover gasket leak, you'd have had to use a sealant. Just saying! :)
FWIW I put a brand new valve cover gasket on to replace a leaking one and it leaked too. I used normal black RTV to seal it and it doesn't leak. Which is just to say, not everyone's perfect. :)
Quote from: mr72 on March 07, 2022, 12:31:43 PM
Bluesmudge, maybe if you had a valve cover gasket leak, you'd have had to use a sealant. Just saying! :)
FWIW I put a brand new valve cover gasket on to replace a leaking one and it leaked too. I used normal black RTV to seal it and it doesn't leak. Which is just to say, not everyone's perfect. :)
No. A valve cover gasket leak = new valve cover gasket.
The sealant I would use is more of an adhesive that glues it to the cover (instead of physics gluing part of it to the head and parts of it to the vavle cover). That way you can take it off and more importantly put it back on without it getting out and escaping and getting pinched. And yea these *****Bond or 3m gasket maker etc etc works well as does any branded or otherwise "rubber cement" or similar. Just make sure the valve cover gasket is clean from oil, and dry as a mofo before using it and use a new valve cover gasket - not one that's already soaked in oil - unless you clean it in acetone or something. Remember, dry and clean - both faces before mating.
Cool.
Buddha.
Hey guys
The new/used cylinder head should arrive tomorrow, along with gaskets, so thought I'd check in. I have cleaned the cylinder block. Just wondering if there was anything else I should do. I've got the Haynes manual so I'll be following that, but just in regards the the used head, should I drown it in oil for a while or something? :dunno_black:
Cheers
I recommend to scrub the built up carbon on piston tops and vacuum off. Then remove the rust on the barrel tops. That rust scares me.
Clean the new head dome chambers. Without disassemble.
Be gentle but firm
Do not use any spray cleaner on the block innards. Just dry clean on the pistons. Rustm may apply derust stuff with a small paintbrush. Or remove with abrasive, but don't let any fall in.
Do not dip the heads in oil. I was told to wash aluminum vw heads long ago, scrub and let dry. Any water will dry out. Heat helps on that drying.
Thanks man, there's no rust, don't be scared. Just poor lighting. I'm a bit paranoid about scrubbing the piston heads without any debris getting stuck between the piston and cylinder. Chris says not to turn the engine while the head is off so the low cylinder would be a real bugger. Thoughts?
I think you are done with this part of the job, I wouldn't try cleaning any carbon off the piston tops etc.
For the old head, I would remove the valves, springs, retainers, buckets, and shims and put them in 4 labeled jars, 1 for each valve IN1, EX1, IN2, EX2
Once stripped you can can clean the head however you like. Replace the cam-caps as they are line-bored can only be used with the same head.
Are you going to use your current cams? Whatever cams you use, you should use your original cam sprockets, as they wear-match to the cam-chain over time.
I don't have the valve clamp/vice so I don't think I'll be doing any of that
The BaltimoreGS vids show you how to pop out the valve keepers (she calls them cotters) with a socket and a mallet. Works like a charm.
Thanks Chris, I saw that but was wondering how the hell I get them back in. I've worked it out. So, this 'reputable eBay wrecker' has turned out not to be so reputable. The head is off a 2003 model, not 2010, and who knows who many KMs. At least the valves aren't bent. I'm fighting with him at the moment. But...now I know how to remove the valves, would there be an issues with just swapping the bent valves with the straight valves and keep my existing head and springs? Could it possibly be that easy?
I think the 2003 head is the same as the 2004+ heads. If it has a tach-cable drive, it is a previous generation.
The early versions 2003-05 had noisy cam issues, so you want to use your original 2010 cams and the special spacers and wave washers.
If the ebay head is the right gen, it is probably better to just bolt and go. The worn valves match their seats; if you swap them you will need
to have them lapped to match the old seats in their new home. It's kind of a crap fix. The real deal is to buy new valves and take them to
an engine builder with a seat cutter where they use the correct beveled blade to cut the seat to match the angle of the sealing area of the valve (factory spec).
But time and money factored in I think the best option would be to use the 2003 head as is and put the 2010 head on the shelf.
Yeah, it's the previous gen with the tach cable attachment. The input is all sealed up so it's essentially the same as my 2010. I've pulled it all apart and cleaned it up. I'll put it back together with the 2010 cams on and wack it on
Cheers 👍
You can always rebuild the bent-valve head at your leisure with new valves and seats etc. while still using the bike with the "reliable ebay" head on it. :)
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 11, 2022, 03:46:05 AM
Yeah, it's the previous gen with the tach cable attachment. The input is all sealed up so it's essentially the same as my 2010. I've pulled it all apart and cleaned it up. I'll put it back together with the 2010 cams on and wack it on
Cheers 👍
Dude the cams and cam caps and head all wear together, swapping them is a risk I wont take. But someone here oughta have done it, and can post their result.
Cool.
Buddha.
I thought 2002 and 2003 had the electronic tach? Sounds like the head is off a 2000 or earlier bike if it has the spot for a mechanical tach. I think 1997 - 2000 were mechanical tach with silver paint.
I'm going to agree with Buddha, I would just swap the whole head and not mix and match cam parts. That's what I did and so far haven't noticed anything weird with my cam chain wear (34,000 miles later). The cam chain is going to be more lenient about wear differences than the cam caps/head with a mismatched cam.
But you can also swap the sprockets from the old motor, they bolt onto the camshafts, those dont wear together.
Sorry I dont remmeber what was broken on your motor Blue, and dont remember what's broken on his either.
Cool.
Buddha.
I've bent three valves. So at this point would I just be better taking the straight valves from the eBay head and lap them in my current head, which is otherwise perfect?
I only bent them rotating engine by hand
Quote from: Frankiechops on March 11, 2022, 03:46:05 AM
Yeah, it's the previous gen with the tach cable attachment. The input is all sealed up so it's essentially the same as my 2010. I've pulled it all apart and cleaned it up. I'll put it back together with the 2010 cams on and wack it on
Cheers 👍
I've never seen a 2010 head, but on my 2005 the spot for the tach drive is still visible, like Suzuki simply plugged that part of the casting mold.
I'm assuming that's when what you mean by "all sealed up". I thought the plugged drive port was the final gen of this engine, are you saying
that your 2010 is a different cylinder head casting?
Re: my earlier comments
Cam-caps stay with their original head because they are line-bored.
Cams can be swapped in and out as long as they are in spec. The first new-gen (plugged tach port) up to 2005 had significant cam-walk noise issues.
Suzuki updated the cams for 2006+ models. The newer cams are backwards compatible with your 2003 head. There is a service bulletin
(https://iili.io/K6Pga9.jpg)
If the 2003 looks good, I would put the 2010 cams in and use it; you can either rebuild or sell the 2010 head depending on how satisfied you are
with the 2003 head. I've done the cam swap on mine and it's a huge improvement, with no clack-clack noise at idle.
Can you please send me that image Chris? It's. It coming up readable for me. Thanks man. Here are the two heads I've got. Ones capped, the 2010 just doesn't look drilled out
2010
My 2006 head looks like your 2010.
My 2005 looks like the 2010, this makes sense to me, the 2003 was the first year without the mechanical tach, so they just used the
heads they had on hand, with the plug. The next run of heads had the plugged/undrilled casting.
This is the only version of that image that I have: https://iili.io/K6Pga9.jpg
It's a little fuzzy, try downloading it so you can zoom in. It basically it just describes the knocking problem and lists the part numbers.
There is some important info in steps 3 and 4, which is a better method than what's in the Haynes, or shown on the BaltimoreGS videos.
Your cams will be the updated version: one thick washer on the left side and 3 thin washers on the right: thin/wave/thin
You tip the cam in a little on the left (washer in place) and compress the 3 washers on the right side so it will slip/drop into the bearing.
The timing procedure is all the same as the manual except for torqueing down the EXHAUST cam caps. The new recommendation is that
you torque down the INTAKE caps first, then ROTATE THE ENGINE 90 DEGREES REVERSE, this clears the #1 exhaust lobe from the shim
so you can torque the cam caps without working against the spring. Once you get that done you need to install the cam-chain tensioner
before rotating the engine back to the timing marks and do the final check on your timing marks/pin count etc before rotating the
engine though a complete cycle.
Ok if you're mix and matching treat the motor as "needing break in".
Also there is a few moly based coatings you can apply on cam caps etc etc that can help with that, but I believe they would need the heads and caps in their shop to do so. They routinely coat bearings for nascrap stuff - link below.
http://www.hmelliottcoatings.com/
No affiliation, just happened to come across them years and years ago.
Cool.
Buddha.
Thanks all. So regarding just swapping the bent valves with straight valves and lapping them in. Is that a feasible option?
Cheers
I've just done a little trial with swapping them and all seems well (out of the bike). If I give them a good lapping to mate them, in my mind that seems the best option. What am I missing? It may not run as well? This option would certainly give me the most confidence is terms of parts reliability. That is, the only foreign part in the bike are the values.
Was the 2003 head in rough shape?
Fun fact: 2003 was the last year where the non-euro bikes had higher lift cams and a claimed 51hp.
Starting in 2004 all countries received the lower-lift cams for a claimed 47hp. :icon_sad:
The 2003 eventually cleaned up alright, but the shim buckets on the exhaust were near impossible to move and are quite discoloured. I don't think I'll get them back in without a hammer to be honest
Yeah, stick with the newer head. There are lots of videos of valve lapping...
Did you get a valve-spring compressor? You could put it all together and see what leaks before removing any metal.
I made a diy valve spring compressor. You'd think I would have learnt! Works a treat though. Good idea, I'll Set it up and test for leaks and go from there
Thanks mate
DIY eh? welp just be careful, those valve faces don't tolerate any edge load. (post a pic)
My friend builds pro-mod drag bike engines, so he's built lots of big GS1100's into 1400's etc
He couldn't believe how big the valves in the GS500 are...almost like the whole combustion chamber
is valve face :icon_lol:
Also while you have the valves out, take a look at the ports. Nice straight ports with not a lot
of compromises. The design is good, and very high performance for a 2 valve, but the execution
is often pretty sloppy. If you see big casting edges or slop in the (mainly the intake) ports, now's the time...just
stay away from the combustion chamber altogether.
Basically the same as this.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13672.msg116193#msg116193
I had it the other way round though, so the pivot point of the C clamp was on the valve. It was easier to centre it and stay away from the edges that way
Valves fitted, chambers filled with fuel. Not a leak to be seen! Good to wack the head back on you think?
That's a clever hack, I like it.
For the head, it's a tough call. Your valve seats are probably in good shape because of the low miles.
If the valves are mating well with those factory-cut seats, you might not be able to improve the seal
with grit and could even end up going backwards. I don't like lapping because it takes metal off of the valve
and rounds off the sealing edge.
(Side note: when the seats are cut, they don't polish or lap anything. The valve sets into the fresh cut after a few revolutions.)
If you just put it together, and find your compression is down, you are out a head gasket, some copper washers
and some time, but I can't see how you could do any damage.
Use engineers blue (or a magic marker in a pinch). Takes 10 minutes to check!
Engineers blue on the valve and see if it transfers evenly to the seat?
Yes
I also would have an engine mechanic look at the contact ring, or wait a sec, the factory or haynes or some ding dang manual has the drawings of what contact ring should look like.
My engine guy sort of hits in place - think the bike is running 12k revs. The valve slams into the seat 6K a minute. So slam it in there like it is if it was hitting it 100 times a second.
Cool.
Buddha.
Hey All! I'm back on the road! Thanks to all that took the time to comment and offer advice. Thought I sum up for anyone interested.
I ended using the 2003 head and cams as I discovered I had cracked the valve guides on the 2010 head when I bent the valves. It's a fair bit noisier with the cam walk rattle when it warms up, but other than that it's running great. I might try the 2010 cams in there at some stage. I didn't get the valves and seats cut, I just lapped them with compound. I got a decent enough seal but in hindsight I suspect that may be contributing somewhat to the increase in noise. I may look at doing that at a later date but I was impatient to get back on the road. As annoying as my initial mistake was I've actually enjoyed the learning experience.
Thanks all 👍
Nice one. Enjoy the ride
Nice work. Enjoy. Couple things though. Cam walk wont happen just cos you lapped the valves instead of cutting seats etc. And cams aren't interchangeable with heads. You have to keep them together cos they wear together. The cam walk problem can be solved with washers they sell for that purpose but the thinnest they sell is 1mm, I'll bet its nowhere near 1mm. Just ignore till it gets to that 1mm+ thickness. Where you can install that washer.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Frankiechops on April 01, 2022, 10:35:50 PM
Hey All! I'm back on the road! Thanks to all that took the time to comment and offer advice. Thought I sum up for anyone interested.
I ended using the 2003 head and cams as I discovered I had cracked the valve guides on the 2010 head when I bent the valves. It's a fair bit noisier with the cam walk rattle when it warms up, but other than that it's running great. I might try the 2010 cams in there at some stage. I didn't get the valves and seats cut, I just lapped them with compound. I got a decent enough seal but in hindsight I suspect that may be contributing somewhat to the increase in noise. I may look at doing that at a later date but I was impatient to get back on the road. As annoying as my initial mistake was I've actually enjoyed the learning experience.
Thanks all 👍
Good job doing the work yourself and getting back on the road.
You can check your part numbers to verify whether or not you can use the 2010 cams in the 2003 head (I think you can)
Here's a clip from the manual. The original cams that end in -01830/-01840 were discontinued after the 2005 model year,
so the backwards-compatibility likely extends to the 2003 models; (since that was the first year with the electronic-tach.)
(https://iili.io/Mnv7EX.jpg)
I may not have been successful as I first thought 🙁
The ticking I'm not overally fussed about. But I've got a more worrying noise that has become more prominent. It's hard to label but I'd say it's a 'buffeting rattle.' it's dependent on revs, mostly below 4.5k, and much louder when moving as opposed to just revving at a standstill. It's coming from the top end area. I've checked the manifold seal and if seems good. I resused the old manifold gasket, but added some gasket sealer just to be sure. Exhaust valves are set at 0.1 and intake 0.08
Any thoughts on what I should look at? My sneaking suspicion is the valves aren't sealing properly.
Just a recap: the bike was running 100% before I bent the valves with a half arsed attempt to change the shims without the tool. It's done under 10k km.
Buddha, I replaced a whole new (used) head unit, hence introducing the cam walk noise I didn't have before as it had the spring washers on my previous cams.
Chris, after looking into it, the new cams with spring washers appear to be backwards compatible earlier than 2003, as long as you have a wheel Speedo
Thanks all 👍
You can mostly rule out the valve seal by doing a compression test. It's the easiest to check so you might want to do it first.
If the compression is ok, pull the valve cover off and have a look. Check the bolts on the cam-caps and the cam-chain tension
and you might as well re-torque the cylinder-head nuts while you have the cover off.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Okay thanks, I'll get a compression tester tomorrow and give it a go. I ended up putting the 2010 cam shafts in today so I re-did the timing, checked the chain tensioner and re torqued the caps. I didn't re torque the cylinder head nuts but they were all tight.
Oh, I should say that the bike ran fine with the new cams, no cam walk at idle now. Still the valve ticking and the disturbing sound though
Would having the 'steel wool' filter of the breather cover in the wrong position be giving me trouble? This pic is a screen capture from the BaltimoreGS video showing it in the half closest the breather tube. I had mine in the other half furthest from the breather, therefore over the holes in the gasket. Sounds too easy. I'll test it out tomorrow
That steel wool basically cuts down on the blow by that can end up in the airbox. Not related to noisy valve train/engine.
Find out where the noise is coming from.
Cool.
Buddha.
100 psi both cylinders. As per the Haynes manual I put a little oil in and checked again. No difference, so that's something. I guess the head is coming off again :woohoo:
Low compression causing a rattle ? I cant imagine that, I've ridden a 100 psi compression motor for a looooong looooong time. Its just down on power up high, that's all.
You're going to have to diagnose it and not start taking stuff off at random. Is it top end or bottom end that's got the noise ?
Could it be clutch basket ? Starter clutch and rotor ?
Cool.
Buddha.
I'm operating on the basis that the only thing I've changed since it was running perfectly the top end.
I'm struggling to give the noise a name but rattle probably isn't it. Maybe an 'angry gurgle'? It isn't prominent just revving at a stand still, only under load when engine breaking or going up through the gears. I can't guarantee it's not coming from somewhere else but that's my feeling. I'll investigate further before taking any drastic measures.
Cheers
Well, I think I recall a suggestion that the valve seats and rings get done while the head was off... ;)
At least you know the r&r process now, so I'm sure it'll be quick for you to get it rocking. I don't practice what I preach, BTW. The way you're doing it is what I always do, regardless of what I say you should do :)
Valve seats cant rattle. But maybe you've got a piston slap type of noise you're hearing. That is an extra noise a good motor wont make.
Cool.
Buddha.
Personally I would start off with checking and reinstalling the cam chain tensioner.
Best of luck with it.
IDK how the cam chain tensioner is going to cause low compression.
But it might cause a rattle.
Okay, some positive news. After pressurising the the chamber with my compressor and being unable to find any leak, I decided to do another compression test. Instead of using the screw in hose I used the straight shaft with the rubber head that you just jam into the spark plug hole. 145-150 psi repeatedly on both sides! So there must be an issue with the hose connecter on the compression tester.
I also went around the bike torquing every bolt. The engine mounts were way off spec. Not loose, but way off. Went for a ride this morning, minus fairings, and its sounding and feeling noticeably better. Still noisier than before all this business but oh well. Just in case anyone suspects the fairings, I've had them off before and they were not the culprit. No doubt they amplifycthe sound though
Did you check the header nut torque? From your description, the noise could be an exhaust leak at the header.
My personal philosophy is to ignore all noises which are not accompanied by a performance change. My Bonneville sounds like it's got a cup full of loose nuts and bolts attached to the top of the valve cover. I'm sure my GS is the same, except the exhaust is so loud I can't hear it. So maybe the solution to your problem is louder exhaust :)
Yeah that was my first thought too. Torqued and no leaks. I'll look into a louder muffler :thumb:
Put a 2nd gasket in the exhaust ports. The thing can leak at higher speed where you really cant tell. It also can leak when hot, or when cold etc etc. The 2nd gasket wont hurt anything either.
Cool.
Buddha.