Got my Progressive fork springs today. The stock fork oil level is 3.9" (99mm). The install sheet says the level should be 140mm (5.5") max. Whoever else has done this, did you take fork oil out and if so, how? I want to do this without removing the forks, aka i'm looking to see if anybody 's got any tricks.
Thanks much!
:cheers:
You don't have to remove the forks or the oil to install the springs, but if you keep the stock oil and level you will find the forks underdamped with the new springs. Do seriously consider doing the job properly and replcing the oil with the recommended 15wt at the recommended height. It only adds about half an hour to the job and is well worth it. Good luck.
Unofficial method...
First it is recomended to remove the forks and use the 15wt oil.
However, I did not and the forks work great. My bike is a '99 with 6900 miles on it so I did not feel the need to remove the forks. Some tips on my spring change:
Get the front tire off the ground.
Only one fork at a time.
I used a long wire (CLEAN Wire) to check the fork oil level after removing the fork cap. Then marked that location on the wire lightly with a file.
Remove the original spring and spacer.
Install progressive spring with recommended spacer. Mine was .750 inches cut from the original. Don't forget the washer or seat as it is called.
Check and adjust oil level with the wire. I had to remove some oil using a large syringe and a length of tubing.
Repeat on the other fork.
This method assumes the fork oil level was correct to begin with. I did not measure the fork fully compressed per the manual.
In the end it is your choice but I am very happy with the results. Good luck.
MacDuff
Pablo's page says you can take a big veterinary syringe (300ml!) with a stiff catheter hose and use it to suck-out what you can, then replace. I've been thinking of trying that... but 1/2 hour to yank the forks? Yow, I think I spent that long getting the wheel off and adjuting the fork brace.
It's not the time that scares me from pulling the fork tubes; it's wondering what I'll break getting them off and on!
i just took my forks off yesterday and there really isnt much to break. pretty solid stuff your dealin with there
Quote from: cozyGot my Progressive fork springs today. The stock fork oil level is 3.9" (99mm). The install sheet says the level should be 140mm (5.5") max. Whoever else has done this, did you take fork oil out and if so, how? I want to do this without removing the forks, aka i'm looking to see if anybody 's got any tricks.
Thanks much!
:cheers:
I installed the Progressive springs on my 2001 a few months ago, with very successful results. Some straightforward steps regarding the fork oil
- Progressive indicates that the stock fork oil is fine (10W). There are strong views on the board about bumping it up to the slightly thicker weight fork oil (15W). I stuck with the stock oil and have found the results perfect for street use.
- Perform the work with the bike on its center stand. This will enable you to remove both springs, necessary to fully compress the fork to set the oil level correctly. The Progressive springs call for slightly less oil in the fork tube because the denser spring displaces more oil than the stock, as you'll see when you remove the stock spring.
- The bike on the center stand is sufficiently balanced such that it will compress the fork naturally but not be so heavy that you can't lift it off the front wheel (shifting the weight to the back wheel). This step is necessary to install the new spring, washer, spacer, and cap.
If you don't compress the fork, you'll be in the dark as to whether or not you've got the correct fluid level for the fork oil.
Good luck. You'll be thrilled with the results.
progressive makes a fork oil removing tool
Quote from: Puunjobprogressive makes a fork oil removing tool
I'm not sure if it's the same thing, but Motion Pro makes a
slick tool for getting the fork oil level right. You can find a picture and description (along with the MSRP -- gulp!) about halfway down the
Suspension Tools page on the
Motion Pro site.
richard and I accomplished the same thing by:
1) Making a depth gauge. We wrapped some stiff wire a few times around the middle of a discarded carpenter's pencil and then made it stick straight out about 3 or 4 inches to form a 'T'. We measured from the flat of the pencil and put a notch in the insulation at the 99 mm mark.
2) Alternately pouring oil into (and/or out of) the forks and checking the depth with the pencil & wire tool.[/list:u]That's about as close to FREE as you can get, and it worked great!
--------------------------------------------
Richard - do you still have the "tool", or did I make off with it? A picture is worth a thousand words.... :mrgreen:
I don't remember... you might have it. I'll check when I can. I'm up to 50 hours so far this week at work, so I'm not sure when that'll be.
It looked something like this:
============
|
|
|
|
|
-
|
Where the - is a notch in the insulation at 99mm
gotta love ASCII art, eh? =][/code]
Hey, I just used a chopstick with two marks 14 cm apart. I just lowered the chopstick into the tube and checked to see if the fork oil level was ok. And if I needed to make an adjustment, I had a turkey baster. For really fine tuning, the chopstick held enough oil to lower the level a couple of mm each time I stuck it in really far. Didn't absorb oil if I wiped it off. Good thing I have plenty of chopsticks around... Gotta try cooking more Japanese food one of these days :)
Quote from: richardgotta love ASCII art, eh? =]
Yep! If a picture is worth 1,000 words then ASCII art must be worth ... what ... 300? :?
(Did you catch my recent ASCII art diagram in the
need replacement petcock thread on the "For Sale" forum? :mrgreen: )
Here ya go - I've added in the wire coiling around the pencil, using '/' characters:
=====///====
|
|
|
|
-
|
|
TIP: The longer you make the wire, the sooner you can get feedback about how the oil level is coming along.
Hey guys. Dug this thread back out because I plan to install these springs and do the lazy fork oil replacement this weekend.
I'm seeing contradicting statements regarding what will happen if I take both springs out while the bike's on the centerstand. Pablo's directions say the forks will fully compress and the bike will fall forward off the stand. Not good. But GaryIF says you can take 'em both out and the bike will be fine. Anybody have any more opinions on this? If possible I'd like to compress the forks fully so I can get the best measurement possible when I'm filling 'em up. If Gary's right this shouldn't be too tough, but I'd like a little more reassurance so I don't end up with the bike falling over in my garage. Thanks,
jeff
Have you had it up on the centerstand before? It rests on the front wheel. As soon as you take the fork caps off, there is nothing keeping the forks from completely compressing. This may or may not be a problem, but I'm not going to try it and find out. after a couple of inches of travel, it will hit a hard stop. This also, may or may not be a bad thing. I would suggest putting a jack under the frame or some straps over your garage ceiling joints so that you can lower the bike slowly in a controlled manner and bring it back up if it gets unstable. Even then, i don't know if I would let the weight of the bike rest on the hard stops of the suspension, for fear of bending something expensive and/or hard to fix. Meh...maybe it's fine though...
Quote from: DiderichHave you had it up on the centerstand before?
Many times.
Quote from: DiderichIt rests on the front wheel. As soon as you take the fork caps off, there is nothing keeping the forks from completely compressing.
You're right it does normally rest on the front wheel, but if I'm reading GaryIF's post correctly, you can also rock it back so it's resting on the rear wheel, so you can get the springs back in with the forks fully extended.
If that's correct, I think what I'll try doing is getting it up on the center stand, putting it on it's back tire, taking both springs out, and either roll it back onto the front wheel to compress the forks, or maybe use my floor jack to push the front wheel up further to compress 'em. Hopefully this way I can get a good measurement and make sure the correct amount of oil is in there. Then let the forks back out, reinstall the springs, and be done with it. I think I'm gonna at least start tonight, I'll post the results.
jeff
I think I can clear up the confusion.
When Kerry and I replaced the fork oil (and seals) on my bike, we put weight on the back of the bike to lift the front tire off the ground, and then used a car stand (like you use after you've jacked it up if you want to leave it there for awhile) to prop up under the bike so it wouldn't come back down. I imagine you could do the same thing with bricks, 2x4s, large stacks of microsoft products, or other such disposable goods.
The key is to make sure there is something there to take the weight off of the front wheel while, well, the tire isn't there. ;-) If you don't do this, then you will have problems.
Good luck!
ah ha, that does help clarify things. I can use a floor jack/jack stand to support the bike from the bottom, keeping the front wheel off the ground. This will unload the springs, making them easy to take out and put back in.
Regarding my other question, is it going to be safe, once the springs are out, to lower the bike back onto the front wheel to compress the forks to put the new oil in? Might the bike try to roll off the center stand? Or would it be a better idea to use the floor jack under the front wheel to push up and compress the forks while the bike is leaning back?
jeff
I'm thinking of getting a syringe (with cc's marked off) and a long tube to change fork oil level. For 39mm forks, that would be approx 1.19 cc's per mm of fork oil level. Not sure what the ID measurement of the fork tubes are... Well I think I have my math right! hehe.. Then once you make note of your oil level when installing your springs, you can adjust your fork oil level just by opening the fork tubes and sucking out or addding the appropriate volume without taking the springs out :)
There is no need to put the forks back on the bike to compress them.
After you remove the springs, you can easily compress them by hand.
In fact, you'll need to to get all of the old oil out. (You are changing the oil, right? if not, don't waste your time taking the forks off. I highly recommend it, though... put in 15w or heigher. I have 15w, works great, others like more)
I was planning on doing it without removing the forks. I'm thinking I can use a jack to compress the forks while the bike is leaned back on the rear wheel.
I'm planning on sucking as much of the old oil out as I can while the forks are still on the bike, then filling it up to specs with new.
jeff
personally, I'd just remove them from the bike, having done it once. the hard part of front spring maintenance is changing the oil seals... if you aren't doing that, you don't have to mess with the spinning bolt problem and make funky tools, etc, so the hardest part is getting the fender off... which still isn't real difficult. just remember that most of the bolts for the fender have nuts on the bottom that you need to hold still in order to get off, and they are often pretty tight to start with.
After you get the fender off, I think there are 3 bolts on each side that you loosen, and you'll have a better chance of getting all the oil out.
It's up to you, of course, and the other way will probably also work... I just don't think it will work quite as well, or save you all that much time.
That Said:
Once you open the forks, and have the front of the bike propped up on stands (I put the stand just after the frame curves down to the bottom point and goes straight again) so that the front wheel is off the ground, you can remove the wheel, and with the front fender on you can't compress the forks individually, so you'll have to do them at the same time. Make sure to keep the parts with the correct side! probably won't be a problem, but be careful just in case.
you should be able to pretty easily compress the springs by hand, and either prop them there somehow or hold them while you do your syringe trick.
Let us know how it goes!
Quote from: Jeff PI was planning on doing it without removing the forks. I'm thinking I can use a jack to compress the forks while the bike is leaned back on the rear wheel.
You won't need a jack to compress a fork without a spring, you can slide it with your pinky finger. I would imagine that it is possible to undo both fork caps at the same time, but I am not sure how far forward the bike would lean and still be firmly planted on the center stand. It would be worth a few minutes to try to support in a manner to do it this way since you can do both forks at the same time.
It seems that checking the oil level with the forks still on the bike would be difficult at best. Just keep in mind that if the fork tube is not vertical, your reading may be off a little bit if you are not measuring exactly at the center* of the oil surface.
*Not meaning to start a debate as to the nature of surface tension and fluid dynamics of fork oil. Simply a reminder that if the fork isn't vertical, the fluid isn't horizontal. :cheers:
Ok I need some mid-job help!
Since I have the day off, I decided to go ahead and remove the forks completely. Right now they're on the floor of my garage, with the end caps, seat washers, and stock springs and spacers out. I've got two 0.75" pvc pieces to use as the new spacers. The old fork oil is drained out. I'm ready to go. Except I'm not quite sure what to do about the new oil level. The Haynes book says 99 mm, the install sheet from Progressive says 140 mm. I'm assuming I should go with the latter? The Progressive directions are really poorly written, you get a big bold disclaimer that it's just a "recommendation", but after that it definitely sounds like a solid instruction. I'm gonna go ahead and fill it to 140 mm, but some feedback would be great. Thanks,
jeff
Definitely go with what the haynes book says. I'm not certain if those progressives are specific to our bike or not, but I do know that I did 99mm and it works great.
info on how Kerry and I got the height correct on my forks is found Here (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7427&highlight=)
Uh, pardon my ignorance. Maybe this is a stupid question, but is that 99 (or 140)mm measure from the top of the fork to the surface of the oil, or from the bottom of the fork to the oil level?
Top edge down to the surface of the oil.
ok the bike is back in one piece. I'll be taking it for a ride later today.
I filled it up to 140mm, as the Progressive instructions said. Getting an exact measurement was really easy with them off the bike. I used a shish kabob skewer with a mark at 140mm. Sounds like you got a good result by going with 99 mm richard, any idea how they'll act differently with 140 instead of 99? Now that it's all assembled and back on the bike I figure it'll be easy to top it off if I need to.
jeff
I can't say for certain, but I suspect you'll find that less fork oil == less dampening power on the front fork. Since you've got it done that way, pay special attention to see if it seems to be "giving" too easily. For instance, if the front springs bottom out going on or off a driveway, you need to add more oil.
Everyone I know who's reported doing it has used the 99mm number... never heard 140mm before. let us know how it works!
(oh, and if you decide to top off, remember what Wrencher mentioned about it being a little inaccurate to do it with the fork slanted)
Just a note to say that I got the forks off and they are upside-down in a plastic bowl draining. Some notes:
Total time to remove everything and lay the parts out on cardboard labelled "Left" and "Right" was 1 hour, 40 minutes. But I was being very cautious.
It's hard to work on the fork caps without a friend to hold the handlebars out of the way. I used bungy cords to pull them up towards the ceiling.
The Haynes manual says to remove the wheel, then the mudgaurd and brace, then loosen the upper pinch bolts and remove the caps. It was about at this point that I realized my brakes were still attached to the right fork, and it was a bit dicey to remove those big hex bolts with the fork all loose. I suppose that the Haynes manual says to remove the brakes as part of removing the wheel, but I have never needed to do that for wheel removal, so I hadn't thought of it.
The top pinch bolts were too hard to loosen using just a hex wrench. I ended-up using a 6mm hex socket attachment and a large socket wrench on them.
The bottom pinch bolts were a tad difficult to loosen, without being able to brace on anything (no wheel, no handlebars, etc.). But I used a long torque wrench and that worked well.
There wasn't nearly so much for oil as I thought: it a gallon icecream pail, it only filled up about 2/3 inch counting both forks.
Keep track of approx how much fork oil you put back in... if you feel like you put in much more than you took out, you were pretty low!
Just an interesting question. I know one of mine was really low, and it was amazing to see how much better it felt after replacing it.
then after fixing the low tire pressure and removing the wrench from the back shock, it felt and turned like a whole different bike! had to learn to corner all over again. ;-)
Quote from: richardKeep track of approx how much fork oil you put back in... if you feel like you put in much more than you took out, you were pretty low!
I took out total 725ml out of both old shocks. But maybe a few more ml. stuck to the springs. I put in 400ml. per side to get the level up to where Progressive suggested (140mm below the top, compressed). So I took out about 70ml less than I put back.
Quote from: richardI know one of mine was really low, and it was amazing to see how much better it felt after replacing it...then after fixing the low tire pressure and removing the wrench from the back shock
Man, the previous owner must have really abused and ignored that bike ;)
BTW, my Haynes manual doesn't list any torque settings for the fork caps. I've got them finger tight: using thumb and ring finger on only 4 inches of the wratchet. If I had to guess, I'd say it's like 1 Nm of torque now. Should I go tighter on those nice fine threads?
:o
EDIT: I meant 1kgf, or about 10Nm. NOT 1Nm.
If by fork caps you mean the caps on the very top of each fork (which would make sense, now that I think of it) Kerry and I measured the first time we removed the caps abt 30-35 Nm with a Tork wrench.
Quote from: Rema1000[ If I had to guess, I'd say it's like 1 Nm of torque now.
Oops, I meant 1kgf, or about 10Nm... about what I do for sparkplugs. So it sounds like it should have been snugged down a bit tighter. I've got the handlebars back on already, so I guess I'll just have to watch for leaking out the caps for a few rides.
By the way, I cut-down the stock spacers to 18mm (just shy of 3/4"). With the bike supported from underneath, and no weight on the handlebars, I was able to screw-in the caps without assistance. It seemed easiest to press down on the cap with both thumbs, then rotate the cap, and stop if you feel any resistance (cross-threading). You will not feel the resistance well enough if you're using a big 1/2" breaker bar on it! It was difficult to tell if the threads were engaging: the first time they didn't, so when I let off the pressure after the about a full turn, the cap popped up. But the second time, they engaged fine. The threads gave almost no resistance to being threaded.
As Srinath has suggested, this may be easier with one person pushing down and another turning. But I had no trouble by myself, and I'm a lightweight.
My experience with the caps was that when I first tried it (when I installed progressives, but hadn't replaced the oil) it was a little bit difficult at first 'til I got the hang of it, then they weren't too bad.
the second time I tried it, I had the forks off the bike, and it was a piece of cake.
it's all in the angle and technique. you really only need one or the other. =]
Huh? You can cake the caps off with the forks off? The Haynes manual instructed loosening the top fork caps with the lower pinch bolts still tight... then before you pull the forks off, it says to remove the caps. Then, the installation is the reverse.
So I pulled the caps before I pulled the forks, and then inserted the oil-filled forks without any caps (!). I was a little worried about crud falling down into the open forks during installation, so I got everything squeaky clean first.
Sounds like maybe I should have just pulled and installed them with the caps loose, but still on the forks.
Yes, always loosen while they are still there... we made the mistake of forgetting to do that, and had to put it partly back on. =] but to put them back on, it's easiest to put them finger-tight while it's off the bike, then put it on and tighen.
I just ordered a set of progressive springs and I'm trying to get a couple of things straight. The clymer manual says to measure the oil with the spring out and the shock compressed and to fill it to 99mm from the top. The progessive instructions say to fill them to 140mm from the top. If I go with 99mm, won't the larger springs displace more oil than the smaller stock ones?
Which measurement should I use?
Also, I'm planning on leaving the forks on when I install the springs. If I measure the oil at the lowest point, then measure the highest point, add the numbers then divide by 2, shouldn't that give me close to the same measurement as having the fork vertical?
Quote from: ekimIf I go with 99mm, won't the larger springs displace more oil than the smaller stock ones?
Yes. Definitely. I coudn't specify an amount in cc's or anything, though.
Quote from: ekimWhich measurement should I use?
Up to you. We went ahead and filled to the 99 mm mark on Richard's bike. The difference is 41 mm, or 1.6 inches. That's a lot of oil to leave out! (It's also a lot to put in, if it's truly "extra".) If you're a lightweight you might split the difference. Richard's a "healthy" kid weighing 200(+?) lbs and I think he likes the front just as it is.
Quote from: ekimI planning on leaving the forks on when I install the springs. If I measure the oil at the lowest point, then measure the highest point, add the numbers then divide by 2, shouldn't that give me close to the same measurement as have the fork vertical?
Makes sense to me! The main "downer" with this method is that you won't be able to get the old oil out this way. (How old IS the oil, anyway?)
When I put Progressives in my bike (this was before Richard came along and wanted to do it
right on his bike :x ) I just removed the top caps, exchanged springs, added a PVC spacer, and put the cap back. Didn't measure the oil or anything. :o But now that I've got a slight oil leak on one side I plan to take the forks off and perform "the works". I'll probably change to 15W oil while I'm at it. Besides, now I have
THE TOOL.... :thumb:
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net.
Do replace all the oil, you should remove the forks. Check the modification manuals at www.bikepower.net for more info on installing progressive fork springs.