I'm converting to E85 (ethanol), and wondering how far to enrichen the mixture. I put-back the stock airfilter, but found that with E85 fuel, I couldn't idle smoothly without the choke on 1/2-way (ethanol is 30% oxygen, so doesn't need so much air). With E85, I found that the bike bucked pretty wildly, especially from 3k-6k RPM. At 7k, I could still feel some popping, but it wasn't as noticeable.
Just to see how far off I was, I tried restricting the airbox: I put a bathtub drain strainer (hair catcher; a plastic basket with holes) over the opening of the air filter... but I still couldn't get a good idle without the choke. Then I stuck a Dixie cup in the strainer, almost blocking it off. Finally, I was able to get the bike to idle at 1500RPM with the choke off. But it still seemed pretty lean at idle: if I blipped the throttle, the RPMs hung up high for a few seconds before falling. Riding around with the air blocked-off, it's fine starting in 1st, but when I shift up to 2nd, it bogs-down completely (not too surprising). So I just rode a bit in 1st at 5k RPM.
So I think the mixture is pretty far off. The most-significant rejetting I see mentioned on GSTwins is to use 40 pilots and 150 mains, and shim with 2 washers (for a V&H Performance exhaust and K&N pods). Can anyone with the performance system guess as to whether my description sounds leaner than theirs would be, with performance intake/exhaust, but with the stock jetting? That would give me an idea where to start playing.
I'm wondering if I should maybe start with 42.5 pilots, 150 mains and 2 washers, and see how that works.
Nope... someone told me he was running 180 mains and was still lean... That was back in 1997... when I had no clue about filter and pipe setup etc.
It ran like a bat from hell with ethanol and evidently it runs very cool and doesn't strees the motor as much. Is it true... Ethanol wont knock .... ever
Cool.
Srinath.
We do alot of work with micro sprint cars at the shop. When they convert to METHONAL, the rule of thumb is a 70% increase in fuel is required. So take what a stock carb has and go bigger by 70% on all the circuits (pilot, needle, needle et, main) BTW you also have to change the float needle valve, and needle valve seat to allow for more fuel. Usually you have to be running high compression, and advance the timing too when running methonal. I'm not sure if ethonal is the same or similar as methonal but, you cant leave it in your carbs or it will eat away the seals and other rubber components.
In my opinion, the 33mm carbs that are on a stock gs Just doesnt flow enough to run that type of fuel.
Methanol is 50% oxygen, and ethanol is 35% (and gasoline is 0%). I've seen car conversion instructions saying to increase all jets between 20% and 40% from gasoline. There's not really much penalty for running rich, so I'd figure a 40% increase in fuel for max. performance (and 70% for methanol).
But I was thinking of starting with just a 30% increase, which should still be in the ballpark, and the little 33mm carbs just might have a chance :) . So I may start with 157.5 mains and 50 pilots. I've heard of 33mm carbs being used with mains as large as 192 (but I don't know how well it worked).
But I wouldn't know what to do about the jet needle. As you keep shimming it, you also shorten its useful range (you get to main jet faster). So trying 3 or even 4 washers may be just silly. Maybe I'd need a narrower jet needle (sand it down?), or a wider needle jet.
start with 160 and a 45 then ride it, if it feels close, spend the cash for a Dyno run, a shop near me will do a single pass dyno run for 25$ I still need stock Needles and emultion tubes for mine.
Quote from: Blueknytstart with 160 and a 45
45 pilots were way too small. I drilled the pilots out with a #76 bit (0.508mm), then a #74 bit (0.5714mm), which finally worked well with the 160 mians and E85 fuel. The idle mix screws were only 1.5 turns out, so 55 pilots would probably be the right stock size for E85.
When setting the idle mix, you could go way too rich, and the engine wouldn't bog-down. I enriched until RPMs quit going up, then stopped right there. The result was pretty nice: the bike started easily, and warmed-up even faster than it did with stock jetting. It idled smoothly at 1k RPM too!
The bike is very wimpy off the line: I have to goose the throttle and ease the clutch when starting out; probably related to having not modified the needle at all.
I got 29mpg on the second tankful of E85, which was less than I had hoped. I hit reserve at 80 miles! Not cool.
I put-in hotter plugs to burn the alcohol better, and leaned-out the idle mix screws to be 1/4 turn leaner than the highest RPM point. Then I got 35mpg from my last two tankfuls, which is OK for E85. But the bike is harder to start, and kills after the first couple of starts. About the third time, it keeps running.
I'm going back to the richer idle mix, and will see how bad the mileage gets.
Maybe the better MPG was from learing the new feel of the clutch, or the hotter plugs giving a better burn. Also, the timing needs some serious advancement (like 10-15 degrees). Alcohol has a really slow burn, and advanced timing should let the fuel burn completely.
So, current system is:
E85 fuel, 105 octane (contains about 35% oxygen)
stock exhaust, K&N drop-in filter with restrictor
57.14 pilots, 160 mains, stock needles
idle-mix screws on the lean side
35mpg
Maybe if you went slightly richer on the pilots (drill them out a bit more) and either leaner on the mains or take the shims out of the needle. It would start better and not run so rich up top...
Are you using commercial pump ethenol gas or pure ethenol from some other source (making it yourself?)?
not to completely threadjack, but's the advantage of running ethanol over gasoline aside from cooler running engines?
jake
ok 60 pilots 155 mains and maybe lift the needle 2-3mm and I can switch to ethanol... sounds good... Let me know what your final setup is and where it runs good... I want to do it. Ethanol is an industrial by product, and presumably will get cheaper in future. Anyhow its a nice mod... and those puffy white clouds of pure oxygen you leave behind.... Lovely ok ok not pure Oxygen, but more like steam and less of the nitrogenated crap and fewer hydrocarbons.
Cool.
Srinath.
my 2000 ranger is supposed to run on e85...it has the leaf sticker on the tail gate. I think its great but they dont sell it in texas...were do yall get it.
isnt that the fuel they make from chicken and pig manuer?
Quote from: JamesGMaybe if you went slightly richer on the pilots
Thanks, good thought. If the richer mixture screws kill the gas mileage again, I'll look there for a few MPG.
Quote from: JamesGAre you using commercial pump ethenol gas or pure ethenol from some other source (making it yourself?)?
Making it myself would be... stinky :) . And big, like using one 55-gallon drum (fermenter) per 100 riding miles per week. In Minnesota, there are about 45 gas stations that sell E85. The price at the pump varies quite a bit, since it seems to have more to do with local supply/demand, than actual cost (I've seen from $1.25/gal. to $1.78/gal.). But it's worth it to just buy it at the pump, instead of making it.
Some thoughts about E85 for anybody thinking of it:
-you have to rejet for E85, and can't buy E85 in every state, so long multistate rides would be complicated in "corn country", or impossible in some states (Srinath?). And your miles per tank will be less (22% less for me so-far).
-started-up on the first try for me on a 42 degrees F spring morning. But don't expect it to start from cold temps as well as gasoline.
-you can burn it with just a rejet, but there won't be any extra power. To maximize power, I think you'd want hotter plugs, advanced timing, higher compression and multi-spark ignition.
-When it's really rich (like right after starting-up), it smells like someone just ripped open an antiseptic Prep Pad; an astringent smell like a hospital. When you fill-up, there are no visible vapors, etc.
-your carbs will stay squeaky clean, as if you soaked them in alcohol
I think that today, you won't save any money with E85 (although your money will at-least stay local): I get 78% the gas mileage of gasoline, but the fuel costs 87% as much as gasoline. But if people buy into it, it would be made from wood chips and corn stalks, and would be much cheaper (like Srinath said, industrial byproducts). So I thought I'd just give it a spin and see if it is really a workable fuel.
\
Quote from: Rema1000-your carbs will stay squeaky clean, as if you soaked them in alcohol
Which you did, because Ethanol
is alcohol.
One advantage not mentioned yet, but the main one in my book (not very popoular in the motoring community, but I'll blather anyway):
Ethanol is 100% sustainable energy. It's made from products grown
now, using carbondioxide from the atmosphere and solar energy.
So no wasting of a resource that our grandchildren might use for better purposes than to load the atmosphere with CO2.
Yup Its a pretty much given that ethanol and hydrogen are way we are going to have to go when all the dino juice is used up.
Looks like we are now in the beginings of that now. Its about time!
Problem with hydrogen is that it's only a container for energy, though, not a source. You gotta produce that molecular hydrogen somehow. In practice that'll probably mean a few hundred nuclear plants. Wonder where you'll find the population willing to put up with those and the waste they produce...
Ethanol on the other hand is produced from substances that have already stored solar energy when they grew.
To be fair, there are different ways to produce hydrogen.
Quote from: Blueknytisnt that the fuel they make from chicken and pig manuer?
Methane is made from animal waste. Ethanol can be made from plant material. The shuttle busses at our state fair run on ethanol made from corn plants.
Matt
Many current fuel cells were built to extract energy from alcohol (at least, it appears so from reading EETimes). Hydrogen would work, too, but it is much harder to deliver to filling stations, and harder to transport in the vehicle. A liquid like LP or ethanol (or gasoline) simplifies delivery and storage. So I think that ethanol could be a good step towards fuel cells: build the delivery network today, then go straight to fuel cells someday.
Good morning.
I want to buy a GS 500 and convert it to ethanol too. Here on Brazil we proudly use this fuel pure or added to gas (E26) since 1978, reducing pollution and oil dependence. Here, its prize (~35-50% of gasoline according the season) takes its use an finnancial advantage. My master thesis is about ethanol-powered vehicles too.
But infortunately there are almost no motorcycles running on it.
Forgive my ignorance (nobody borns knowing anything, my mother says), but, what does mean "mains" and "pilots"? I didn't get an engine-related meaning for them in any Portuguese-English dictionary. Your experience in resetting up carburettors will be very useful to me.
I am planning too to cut 1,5mm of cylinder head, to increase compression ratio from 9:1 to something a bit lower than 12:1. Is there any problem? Will I reach some cyl-head cavity? Is it needed to cut pistons to avoid contact with valves?
How about the ignition map? Can you give more details and suggestions about modifications on it?
Thanks for attention. mareaturbo@zipmail.com.br
Quote from: jake42not to completely threadjack, but's the advantage of running ethanol over gasoline aside from cooler running engines?
It's a more quickly renewable resource than gasoline. Orders of magnitude more quickly. The by- and end-products of combustion are less nasty, too.
plus... your exhause will smell like booze :lol:
I ran my old Ranger on E85 when I could. It ran well, but the mileage hit made any financial/emissions gains a wash (30% cleaner emissions, but only about 70% of the mileage :dunno: ). It also sucked that there was only ONE station in the entire county that sold it.... the county fuel depot :x
Quote from: mareaturbo.... what does mean "mains" and "pilots"? I didn't get an engine-related meaning for them in any Portuguese-English dictionary. ....
I am not surprised that automotive definitions are not in a standard student dictionary.
Main Jet - the largest of the fuel flow jets - generally in sizes like 120, 122.5, 125 and larger. Larger numbers mean a larger hole for fuel to flow through. In combination with the Jet Needle and emulsion tube this jet controls the fuel air mixture from a bit above idele through full throttle. At smaller throttle openings the jet needle is more of an influence thatn the main jet.
Pilot Jet - the smallest of the fuel flow controling jets. Much smaller sizes than the main jet. Controls the fule flow at idle
Quote from: mareaturboI want to buy a GS 500 and convert it to ethanol too. Here on Brazil we proudly use this fuel pure...
Forgive my ignorance (nobody borns knowing anything, my mother says), but, what does mean "mains" and "pilots"?
A carburetor has a few basic parts: it has a "bowl", which works similarly to the water reservoir above a toilet: fuel from the tank fills it up; when it gets full, a "float" (which floats on top of the fuel) rises high enough to close a valve, stopping the flow of fuel, so that the bowl doesn't overfill.
When the engine turns, it creates vacuum, which tries to draw fuel up from this "float bowl" into the engine, through one or more straws, or "jets". A "jet" can look like a small tube; or a small tube with a nozzle; or even just a screw with a hole through its center. The bigger the jet is, the more fuel gets sucked through the hole, and the "richer" the fuel mixture is.
Simple engines have only one jet. However, to provide better efficiency, multiple jets are often used. On older GS500s, there is a big jet, called the "main" jet, and a very thin jet called the "pilot". To burn alcohol, both jets must be made larger. (recent GS500s have 3 jets, not 2). The size of the hole in a jet is measured in millimeters. A "60" pilot jet has a hole which is 0.60mm in diameter. For 100% alcohol, I would suggest starting with a 1.6mm main jet ("160 mains") and 0.6mm pilot ("60 pilot").
For someone new to the workings of a carburetor, I recommend that you read
http://www.motocross.com/motoprof/moto/mcycle/carb101/carb101.html...there will be confusing parts; don't worry.
The next thing you would want to do is to clean the carburetors. Refer to the instructions at
http://gstwin.com/carb_work.htm . It's very possible that if you take everything apart and put it back together, it will not run right. If you make changes, then you won't know whether the changes you made caused a problem, or whether you made an error when you reassembled the carburetors. So first, just take them apart, do a bit of cleaning, and put them back together.
When you are ready to try burning alcohol, then you can look at rejetting. I have a general web page about rejetting at
http://grapeape.specialgreen.com/pictorial/Quote
I am planning too to cut 1,5mm of cylinder head, to increase compression ratio from 9:1 to something a bit lower than 12:1. Is there any problem? Will I reach some cyl-head cavity? Is it needed to cut pistons to avoid contact with valves?
A racer may know about the cyl-head question. I would like to try 12:1 compression also.
QuoteHow about the ignition map? Can you give more details and suggestions about modifications on it?
The map is not adjustable on a GS500. However, the timing reference is adjustable. There are some instructions for advancing the timing at
http://www.gstwin.com/diy_timing_advance.htm . Also read the discussion at
http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6036 . I am using 17 degrees advance (which is the stock 12 degrees plus 5 additional degrees), and it works. With 100% ethanol, you should be able to advance much more than that, but the modification may not be as simple. You might try advancing 8 additional degrees on the rotor. If you decide to put the old jets back in, then 12+8 = 20 degrees advance should still work for E22. If you go much earlier than that, then you won't be able to burn E22 any more.
So a good set of "first mods" to burn E100 is:
advance the timing 8 degrees
put in "hotter" sparkplugs
try 1.60mm hole in main jets, and 0.60mm hole in pilot jets
...and tune using the mixture screws.
It may be necessary to go to 0.65mm in the pilots.
I would be more sure of myself, except that I can't buy E100 here; I can only get E85. And at some gas stations, it is really only E80 :( .
Thanks for answers.
Now I know I need....
main jet = gicleur principal
pilot = gicleur de marcha lenta (idle gicleur)
Quote12:1 comp ratio
might be abit harsh for an aircooled to handle. dont think the gasket will hold it either.
Last post was October 2004... time for an update.
I rode for a year on the 160 mains, and stock pilots drilled-out to about 57.5. Every 3 or 4 months, I had to enrichen the pilot mix screws to keep from stalling at stop-lights. By summer 2005, the pilot mix screws were loosened way out, and I decided that the pilots must need cleaning.
So in September 2005, I redrilled the pilots. The idle got better, but I started having a serious bog at 5k-6k rpm in 6th, which made highway cruising miserable. If I did a small, gentle roll-on of the throttle from 5k RPM in 6th gear, the bike would shudder and slow down. Since the only thing I'd done was redrill the pilots, and since I used the same drill bit from last year, I concluded that hand-drilling the tiny pilot jets was difficult to do with consistency.
Since I was using 44% oversize pilots, and only 28% oversize mains, I decided to try splitting the difference. I went up to 165 mains (32% over stock diameter) and down to 55 pilots (37.5% over stock). The 5k RPM bog was not as bad, but it was still there. Even worse, I had to turn the pilot screws a bazillion times out (4? maybe 5?) to get maximum RPM at idle. I think that I will go back up to 57.5 pilots next time I tinker.
To get rid of the bog at 5k rpm, I wanted to shim the needle by 2 or 3 mm, but I couldn't find a good spacer. Instead, I replaced the stock white plastic jet needle spacer (0.105 inches thick) with a 1/4" #4 nylon spacer (0.254 inches), effectively "shimming" by 3.78 millimeters (yow!). Surprisingly, it runs strong now. From a steady cruise at 4k rpm, 4500, 5k and 5500, I tried a gentle roll-on of throttle, and the bike responded well. I'd say that the bike is running as well as it ever has. I've had a week of riding, and I've not noticed any problems. Maybe it respond quicker when I snap the the throttle shut now, but perhaps that's my imagination.
If performance gets bad again (like it did last year), then I will go back up to 57.5 pilots. Also, if I can find a 5mm nylon spacer, I'll try using that as a needle shim (instead 1/4", which is probably more than I need).
Summary of current jetting for 85% ethanol:
55 pilots
165 mains
needle shimmed by 3.78mm
Possibly better would be:
57.5 pilots
155 or 160 or 165 mains
needle shimmed by 2.75mm
...but it's running great now, so I'm not going to touch it!
thats alot of shim, have you tryed 170main?
Thanks for the update, man. I'm keeping an eye on this mod.
Quote from: MarkusN on May 21, 2004, 07:08:17 AM
Problem with hydrogen is that it's only a container for energy, though, not a source. You gotta produce that molecular hydrogen somehow. In practice that'll probably mean a few hundred nuclear plants. Wonder where you'll find the population willing to put up with those and the waste they produce...
Ethanol on the other hand is produced from substances that have already stored solar energy when they grew.
To be fair, there are different ways to produce hydrogen.
There is plently of coal and windmills could be used to create electricity to break water for hydrogen. I think hydrogen engines will be the way of the future.
i got to ask, what if you cant find a E-85 pump to get fuel. will it still run ?
Your jetting would be horribly rich. Probably too rich to even run; else you'll be fouling plugs like crazy.
i figured, but if and when the e-85 really gets off the ground this would be great.
have the head remilled, and rase comp to 12.5, have the cams regound (comp cams)
have block and head o-ringed or have custom head gaskets made. go larger in pistions and longer stroke if possable.
then a all day dyno, so that jets and timing can be set.
all for about 2k i would think
and maybe a extra 20 hp
Holy thread resurrection... okay, but I don't think there was a point starting a new thread? Is there any update on this? I'm going down this road soon. It looks like Rema1000 is using a 35% boost on jets, which is pretty consistent with every other E85 conversion resource I've seen. Since I have a 2001 with a lunchbox and stock exhaust, I'm currently running 20/65/140, and it runs great. So my initial E85 stab is 27.5/87.5/190. It seems a bit extreme, but that's what the math says. (The 2001 main is 4% larger than the pre-01. The rejet adds another 10%. So 14.4% on top of Rema's 165 is 190. Hey, the math works again.)
So if no one gives any convincing conflicting advice, I'll probably be giving that a go.
As usual, I'm not interested in the politics of ethanol. I'm doing this because it's interesting, not because it saves or destroys the planet or the economy. Since gas is $3.75 and E85 is $2.79, I'm expecting to break even on dollars, even if I only get 3/4 the MPG. I also like the idea of my bike smelling like a cheap drink.
Thats ok Chuck i was going to necro it to when I saw your reply.
Two questions -
Here in Pennsylvania we run 10% ethanol in all of our gasolines. Is this enough to think about a rejet of my stock settings? I also heard that ethanol is very hard on the rubber hoses in motors. At 10% any idea what kind of mess it could make for my GS?
There is no reason to rejet for 10% ethanol. All modern fuel systems are designed to tolerate 10% ethanol. It says so in my GS owner's manual. I know that ethanol is not as corrosive as methanol, which is where a lot of the confused warnings come from. When people say "watch out for ethanol" they're thinking of methanol.
I highly doubt our stock hoses wouldn't tolerate even 85% ethanol. If they don't, at least it's not as bad as a car. You have about 18 inches of fuel hose total. If they start breaking down, just replace them with "ethanol compatible" fuel hose (which you can buy anywhere online), and be done with it.
Since I got no replies, I'll probably go buy the jets and try it. :) I'll let you know if anything dissolves.
Not to change the subject,but I guess gas mileage is the topic.I found this article sometime back in Mother Earth news about water injection.On down hte article they mention that it was used on a BMW motorcycle with great results in mileage.Here's the link:
http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/water_injection/novak/novak/060-114-01.html :cheers:
Quote from: Ronin on May 08, 2008, 02:25:15 PM
Not to change the subject
??? :laugh:
The subject was rejetting for E85! But that was an interesting article.
this is one of those threads that hopefully, eventually, FINALLY will mean something in North America, someday !
I wouldn't mind pulling up to Farmer Jim's market, filling up with ethanol, tossing his daughter or son the CASH at the register, knowing that same few dollars may well be in my hand again and walking out to my bike, chugging off into the sunset....
as opposed to:
Having to check my account balance before filling up at a BP station, handing Habib my credit stick, and imagining my credits flying directly to Saudi Arabia, for some crappy mix of almost-gas, coughing and sputtering off into the smoggy sunset.
:) Someday, someday, we'll actually use our neurons. :)
Righto. I have no illusion that Ethanol is practical/economical/sustainable/ecological/etc right now. But I think it will be. I might as well do what I can to help, and increasing demand should do that. Right now there are two E85 pumps in my state. I drive by both of them on a regular basis, so why not? If farmer Jim sold it, I'd drive out to wherever he is.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 20, 2004, 01:29:08 PM
ok 60 pilots 155 mains and maybe lift the needle 2-3mm
I chose 57,1/4 pilots and 155mainjets, needle at last possible position in my 93. i ride this setup for 5400km. engine starts nicely with choke till 8°C.
wow, I've never seen a thread raised from the dead so many times
In my opinion it's useful to continue old threats like this one.
No, people are hardly ever scared of old threats.
so how did this thread end? did he find the best set-up for e85?