Hi all. New to the forum and new to the GS500 ( well, riding one anyway )
Unfortunately, my recent purchase decided it was *not* going to pass emissions..
Failed the Hydrocarbon test by about 220 points :(
I haven't gone into it or anything yet, because I need some ideas on where to start. Plugs? Wires? Air filter?
-edit-
Little more info for you guys, since I'm braindead today...
It's a 1989 GS500e. Bone stock, 17k miles.
Have you looked at what jets are in the carbs? If the bike is leaned out then it should pass. A clean air filter and new plugs will help as well.
Stock exhaust correct?
As far as I know, the entire bike is stock ( exhaust and jets included ).
I haven't torn into at all yet...
Their nice little "Thanks for your money, you fail, we're keeping the cash, move along" pamphlet says to check for :
Ignition System Malfunction, Spark plug malfunction, Ignition wires, Distributor module, Distributor components, Catalytic converter efficiency/air supply, or vacuum leak asusing lean misfire...
Thanks for narrowing it down....
Sorry... little annoyed at the moment... I should be out riding!!!! lol
If there's a chance that the original, 15-year-old paper air filter is still in there, that's where I would start. Pop it out and see how it looks.
If it looks "yucky" I can send you a nice clean one (2,000 miles at most) for $10 shipped.
I just pulled the air filter ( unfortunately I don't have a deep enough socket to get the plugs ) and it looks like CRAP. Dry as a bone too, shouldn't it be oiled?
Grrr. The one bike shop I know to be open today doesn't have the filter :roll:
Oiled? Not if it's the stock, white paper filter. Only if it's a K&N cotton filter or a UNI foam filter or something.
PS - An 18mm open-end wrench works for the plugs.
Also, good quality, clean, new gas will help.
Yah, this one's probably a uni. From the looks of it anyway....
Unfortunately, NOBODY has an air filter in this town. Is it so wrong to ask for one simple litte TINY PART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm starting to get rather irritated... So please forgive my caps...
If I put the current one back in and lean it out, think it'll pass? :dunno:
whoa, wait, emissions for motorcycles? your kidding right? didnt think any state did emission testing on bikes. inpected to make sure tires,lights,exhaust, brakes,excessive smoke of any kind ok but emissions?
Quote from: TheMasterRatIs it so wrong to ask for one simple litte TINY PART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apparently so, if it's for a GS500. ("A
what?") I have had to special-order every single part that was specific to this bike.
Quote from: TheMasterRatIf I put the current one back in and lean it out, think it'll pass? :dunno:
Hmmm. What's your plan for leaning it out?
Quote from: Blueknytwhoa, wait, emissions for motorcycles? your kidding right? didnt think any state did emission testing on bikes. inpected to make sure tires,lights,exhaust, brakes,excessive smoke of any kind ok but emissions?
Yah, go figure. Welcome to Arizona, land of no fireworks and retirees... :lol:
Here in Utah we've got the no fireworks and the retirees (down in St. George ... we call 'em "snowbirds"), but no motorcycle emissions testing.
Like you said - "go figure". :dunno:
Quote from: KerryQuote from: TheMasterRatIs it so wrong to ask for one simple litte TINY PART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apparently so, if it's for a GS500. ("A what?") I have had to special-order every single part that was specific to this bike.
Quote from: TheMasterRatIf I put the current one back in and lean it out, think it'll pass? :dunno:
Hmmm. What's your plan for leaning it out?
Well, I apparently lucked out... They've got one at the Suzuki dealer across town ( who I thought would've been closed today ).
So I guess I'm going for a drive.
As far as leaning it out would have gone, just turn in the air/fuel mixture screws... ( unless I'm wrong, which has been known to happen :D )
Hopefully, the air filter and new plugs fix it, otherwise, I'm out another 11.75 for the test and the bend over price of 30$ for the filter... Such is the price for instant gratification though ( if it works... )
Please let me know if I'm right about leaning it out, as I may still need to do that...
Quote from: TheMasterRat[...]otherwise, I'm out another 11.75 for the test
No retest included in the original price? Harsh!
Quote from: TheMasterRatPlease let me know if I'm right about leaning it out, as I may still need to do that...
I have never rejetted or messed with my air/fuel mixture screws, but if you DO tweak the screws make sure to jot down the original number of "turns out" beforehand. (I'm sure you would have; I'm just trying to be thorough.)
Just got back from the dealer with an air filter and two plugs, ace hardware for a missing retaining screw on said air filter, and autozone for an 18mm wrench.
*wonders if he forgot anything*
I believe ( and again I could be wrong ), stock is 3 turns out... If someone could pipe in on that, it'd be much appreciated :mrgreen:
I hope you used one of the new plugs to make sure 18mm was the right-sized wrench. :?
I used an 18mm wrench on Richard's plugs on Saturday, and several times on my own bike, but I didn't know you would be getting new plugs. I don't know much about variability between brands, etc.
So, here's hoping! :dunno:
Hydrocarbon's. Burning oil... probably never pass that cos these bike use a ton of oil... I also dont think these will ever pass emmissions, not now, not when new.... They are either looking in the car secion of the damn spec list or somethign is wrong... cos there are people here that hvae these in AZ, onefastvega, ed_in_az and others, and I dont see how any GS will pass emmissions. Something is wrong, and its not you or your GS.
Cool.
Srinath.
Well, in an interesting turn of events.... The plugs in before hand were definitely not new... So good to get those out of the way...
On the highly more aggravating side... A hole has developed in the right side tank ( where it sits on the frame )....
-edit-
Oh yah, and the fluid first started coming at a trickle... of light brown fluid... Rust anyone? :( :(
JB Weld temporary fix??? How much does a tank go for?
-edit-
Kerry, the 18mm worked fine, thanks :)
If it's a tiny leak...A POR-15 kit (rust remover/tank sealer kit) will fill it ...and will get rid of the rust that's in there and give the insinde of the tank a new clean finish ...
You could try Por or Kreem to recoat the tank. A new tank is around $550. You are better off buying used.
Quote from: JaredIf it's a tiny leak...A POR-15 kit (rust remover/tank sealer kit) will fill it ...and will get rid of the rust that's in there and give the insinde of the tank a new clean finish ...
ehhh.... define tiny... It will come out in a steady stream maybe 2mm wide at this point if the tank is angled towards the leak.
Is POR-15 available at any local auto store? And what do I do with the full tank of gas that's in it?? :dunno:
For some other ideas, see the thread I got a visit from the Rust Fairy (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8556). Maybe an auto restoration / body work shop?
As for the gas, hopefully you have a couple good-sized gas cans or a couple cars that need to have their tanks topped off.
Pinhole size or so...and the kit comes with a cloth type patch for sealing the Holes.
It's available online or by phone (I've used it a bunch of times....good stuff- fast shipping).
http://www.por15.com/product.asp?productid=306
Read the directions sheet (in PDF..link towards the bottom of the page.).
It's pretty easy to patch the holes.
dont have to pass emission in texas :)
Well, I ended up just using some quicksteel on it after sanding the area down.
Took it back for a retest and it did even WORSE ( with new plugs ( gap .035 ) and a new air filter.
I guess I'll just spend next weekend tearing apart the carbs and giving them a good cleaning. Other than that, I guess I'm SOL for wanting to ride for a while.
Oh yah, and I got home and found out where the choke was... It was all the way on, but moving it around made ZERO difference in RPMs, so I assume that it's non-functional and wasn't the cause.
On a more curious note... Anyone know what this switch does?
Between the gauge clusters. Little black toggle switch
http://members.cox.net/james.taylor5/switch.jpg
It doesn't appear to do anything :dunno:
Quote from: TheMasterRat....Took it back for a retest and it did even WORSE ( with new plugs ( gap .035 ) and a new air filter....found out where the choke was... It was all the way on, but moving it around made ZERO difference in RPMs, so I assume that it's non-functional and wasn't the cause.
On a more curious note... Anyone know what this switch does?
Between the gauge clusters. Little black toggle switch
http://members.cox.net/james.taylor5/switch.jpg:
The switch could be for anything it is not part of the original equipment - might be for an auxiliary light or for heated grips or ??? try following the wiring to see where it goes.
The choke not doing anything could mean it is off or that it is on all the way (which would make the mix way rich and have you fail the test) My guess is that your bike has been re-jetted and is running too rich to pass. Stock pilot jets are 37.5, stock main jets were 122.5 or 125 (I think) and the needle should not have any slots for moving the clip thus adjusting the needle hieght. Of course it takes foever to warm up that way and pops & backfires until completely warm - you may have to restore it to stock settings to pass the emmissions test.
Quote from: TheMasterRatAnyone know what this switch does? Between the gauge clusters. Little black toggle switch
http://members.cox.net/james.taylor5/switch.jpg
It doesn't appear to do anything :dunno:
All I can say is that it's not a factory-installed feature.
See
Stock Gauges (plus clock) Photo and
Stock Gauges Diagram.
Does it turn the headlight on & off?
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
Quote from: KerryQuote from: TheMasterRatAnyone know what this switch does? Between the gauge clusters. Little black toggle switch
http://members.cox.net/james.taylor5/switch.jpg
It doesn't appear to do anything :dunno:
All I can say is that it's not a factory-installed feature.
See Stock Gauges (plus clock) Photo and Stock Gauges Diagram.
Does it turn the headlight on & off?
Nope, doesn't turn the headlight off or on. Near as me or any of my friends can tell, it's as non-functional as my choke
ive seen several used tanks on ebay over the past few months... as to your hydrocarbons... 220 is a bit high for a lean misfire condition, but given that you have a rusty tank, is it possible that some rust has clogged your fuel lines/filter? might be worth checking before wasting money on another test.
Quote from: cummuterguyive seen several used tanks on ebay over the past few months... as to your hydrocarbons... 220 is a bit high for a lean misfire condition, but given that you have a rusty tank, is it possible that some rust has clogged your fuel lines/filter? might be worth checking before wasting money on another test.
Actually, here's the actual report on the Hydrocarbons...
Hydrocarbons in PPM ( whatever PPM means. I don't know )
1st Idle Reading - 423
Precond Reading - 533
Precond Standard - 100
Final Reading - 547
Idle Standard - 220
This was on the retest ( which is free )
PPM = Parts Per Million
I just had another thought. Have you checked the float heights yet? From what I've heard, a too-high float level can richen the mixture like a too-big jet.
In case you haven't run across this page before (I've certainly stuffed it down everyone ELSE's throat :roll: ) here's a "How To":
Float Height Check (http://www.bbburma.net/FloatHeight.htm)[/list:u]
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
On the road fix for pinhole in gastank, use a bar of soap and rub it over the hole. this will temp plug the leak. Bar/cake soap would seem doesnt disolve in gasoline, the plug held on my camero fuel tank for better then 200 miles till i could patch it proper.
Heh...
So I pulled everything out tonight.
There was a dime-sized hole ( at least ) in the vacuum line coming off the bottom of the airbox... Think that may attribute to rough idle and the high hydrocarbons?
I haven't torn apart the carbs yet, that's tomorrow night.
BTW, anyone have a vacuum diagram for these? I kinda have a few "extra" hoses :? :dunno:
A vacuum line coming from the bottom of the airbox? I only know of a drain hose there. (See Tuesday's Oil Leak (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9978) thread.) My 2nd post has a link to a diagram of the airbox, and the hose that I think you're talking about.
For the correct fuel system hose routing check out this page (http://www.bbburma.net/FuelHoseRouting.htm).
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
FOR THE TANK, Check search for rusty tank and you would get the salt water rebar trick. might be good cheep deruster for you. than the finish Kerry was mentioning. Never heard of any motorcycle needing IM before. What a total jip if it's true. Dam enviros going after bikes now. (2 cylinders dam it!) Can we say Excursion, Giant gas guslin soccer mom wanna be Jeep.WTF
Quote from: KerryA vacuum line coming from the bottom of the airbox? I only know of a drain hose there. (See Tuesday's Oil Leak thread.) My 2nd post has a link to a diagram of the airbox, and the hose that I think you're talking about.
For the correct fuel system hose routing check out this page.
Ok, yah. That was the hose. Thanks. Carb cleaning tomorrow :lol:
Is that vacuum hose connected to left carb ( diagram in oil thread ) supposed to be connected to something? Because I'm not sure mine was. ( other than the left carb that is )
That's supposed to be connected to the vacuum petcock. If you replaced that, you should cap the nipple (or squeeze the hose shut). Else your carb sucks air in where it shouldn't.
Ok, got outta work early :D Got one of the carbs apart already. The main jet is 122.5, there is a washer on the underside of the clip ( needle is 5DH8 )
Basically gunna bathe it in gumout and lube the slider ( anything else? ) with some 2 stroke oil.
What else should I be looking for / at while I've got em apart?
There isn't normally a washer on the needle (unless it has been rejetted). You might want to remove that for the emissions test. The pilots (if stock) should be 37.5. You may also have to lean-out the pilot mix screws, if they have been adjusted. Also check float hight (unfortunately, I think it is more reliable to check float height with the carbs on the bike, but you can only adjust float height with the carbs off the bike).
The jets and float needle assemply can be soaked, then blown-out in both directions with compressed air. Use a single nylon bristle to clean if necessary.
I can't get the pilot gets out. They're really in there, and I don't have a screwdriver that sits right w/o stripping them.
Doesn't seem to be rejetted ( aftermarket anyway ) as the needles do have the stock numbers and only have one clip, but I'll remove the washer.
BTW, how DO I get those white plastic slide supports outta the carb?? They don't want to let go and I don't want to damage anything.
Does anyone here know the stock float height ( in millimeters? ) If the same trick works here, I can just hang the carbs upside down until the floats are at full extension and check them that way.
On a more alarming note... A very small o-ring seems to have manifested from the abyss on my kitchen counter... Only 6-7mm wide ( outer diameter ) but doesn't seem to have a home in the carb :dunno:
For O-ring locations, see my 3rd post in the thread where to buy float needles? (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9991).
The float height measurement is 14.6mm +/- 1.0mm and it's measured here:
(http://www.bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_FloatHeight.jpg)
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
Kerry to the rescue, once again. Thanks for the diagrams. That picture makes it look like you just rest the carbs flat and measure...
What about the white plastic slider? Do I have to take it out before spraying out the carbs?? ( Found the O-Ring spot btw. )
-edit-
Got the slider out with my good friend, BFH.
No stupid questions, only stupid people. Here comes one now. If you test the float heights, you're looking at how much gas is in the bowls. If there's too much gas in the bowls, how do you know if it's because of the floats, or because the needle isn't sealing in the seat? Can this test tell the difference? Is it too late for me to be thinking about carbs? Thanks.
John.
you can also lean it out by using (on your way to test) rubbing alcohol, n your gas
Well, carbs are back in one piece ( washer off the needle ).
Floats seemed within the range Kerry posted above... But I gotta say, I'm not feeling confident this is gunna fix it... Here's hoping.
Uhh, Kerry, I just saw in another thread that the measurement above is to be taken with the carbs upside-down... ( to where the floats hanging straight down? ) Can you confirm this please?
Quote from: jgaryIf there's too much gas in the bowls, how do you know if it's because of the floats, or because the needle isn't sealing in the seat?
Hmmm. How about this test?
1) Get a suitable length of see-through hose for performing the
Float Height Check.
2) Attach the hose as described, and hold the free end UP.
3) Set the petcock to the PRI setting.
4) Open up the drain screw on the carb and wait for the fuel level to settle in the hose.[/list:u]* If the fuel level settles anywhere close to the float bowl gasket then you're seeing the height of the fuel in the float bowls.
** If the fuel continues to rise (possibly VERY slowly) in the hose, then the float valve needle isn't seating properly. The level should theoretically rise up to the level of the fuel in the tank, but it won't ever get that high because as the fuel rises and fills the carb bodies it will "turn the corner" and flow down into the airbox first.
EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net
I'll buy that. Thanks Kerry!
J.
Lean it out by creating a higher air flow.... by taking out the air filter... and removing the vacuum caps on the plastic tops. Just for the test. BTW I still dont see how the damn thing will ever clear emissions... they are playing some sorta game. Ask the other AZ guys if they had to test theirs.
Cool.
Srinath.
Quoterubbing alcohol, n your gas
NONONONONONONONONOback in the 70's when most carbs were mecanical alcohol was not so bad to use, as was moth balls (naptha) used to spike octane. problem is, most carbs and some fuel injection systems use seals,diaphrams and what that cant handle alcohol, it warps and distorts them. Carb cleaner has a certain amount of alcohol to it, just try cleaning your slides with it and see if you ever get the tuning right again.