If you hate the RIAA click here

[frankieG]

welcome to the world of litigation and large corporation control that is the USA.

[jserio]

the golden rule: "he who has the gold makes the rules"

[bubba zanetti]

And life's like a shaZam! sandwich, the bread you have the less shaZam! you have to eat.

[spc]

Frankie:   do the G-men monitor your thoughts with satellites???  OOOOOH or maybe they bug your phones!!!     Better yet I bet they drug you and try to brainwash you while anally violating you!   Seriously, get a grip on how the real world works then Buddha Loves You about things.   Not everything can be simple.   Man is a complex beast and is driven to success at all costs.  There is no way to change what is and always will be.     

[frankieG]

yes to all of the above   at least i don't pretend to be 007

[nightrider]

the music industry is supposedly on its last legs in its current form, and not having a lot of leadership... their legal arm is just attacking the weak. doesn't have anything to do with fairness or what will actually end up working. the medium has surpassed the industry and left it in the dust.

the ny times did an article on the head of columbia (ram dass type guy) and how screwed the music business is (hugely). sucks for them but things have changed. for the better. i dont have $17 to be paying for a good song or two. I used to tape shaZam! off the radio cause i couldn't afford a cd collection. that is probably the very reason i bought a computer too--for music.

the fines are ridiculous. it is very common. i do it with no regrets. i think the record execs should be guillotined.

[asobi]

If you REALLY hate the RIAA, click here:

http://www.riaaradar.com

[VSG]

Theft is theft plain and simple, no wonder artists are no longer putting out albums where the majority of an album was good material why put the time and effort forth when people are just going to steal it and they don't get paid.

If anything, downloading would encourage an artist to make an album that is full of good material.  Not the opposite.  If they have a great album, people are more likely to buy it instead of just downloading a single track.

I honestly think downloading has very little, if anything, to do with the quality of albums now.  The reason albums aren't as good is because of the record companies.  Music has become more and more commercial, and the companies just want to put out as much radio friendly, cookie-cutter, over-produced songs as possible.  It's a known fact that there are many popular bands out there that are terrible live (or even worse, just lip sync).

I can't say I agree with the rest of your post either, but Kasumi and MrDan said it better than I could.

[MrDan]

apple ipod songs export just fine as mp3 or even better fully decompress to wma files
there is no membership fee for itunes again maybe you should use the application
Never heard of an expiration either like I said you get a license for music you buy from iTunes it goes in a license manager it is your responsibility to keep up with it and make sure it is backed up

I believe Napster now works on a subscription plan - you subscribe, pay to download the music and are forced to pay napster every month for the pleasure of listening to the music you downloaded.  If you stop paying monthly, you lose the songs.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that's how they were set up though.

I wish I could hand out $9000 fines to every coworker who borrows a pen from me since everyone seems to like my pens but no one else bothers to order any on the supply order.

+1 - lost a Mont Blanc I've had for 15 years this way.  Sucks

Now let's deal with speeding. Is it illegal? Yes.
Do I speed? Yes. Can I afford to pay the fines if I get pulled over for speeding? Yes. Can I afford to bail myself out of Jail and pay for the ensuing fines which will arise from my stupidity when I treat public roads like a race track? Yes.

Have I been caught? You betcha. Do I stlll speed? Yep right again the answer is yes. Can I ride without breaking laws? Yes I can and often do especially when riding with my wife since she does not have the long term experience and instincts from years of riding. Well why don't I haul ass then? Because the cost of losing my wife would be too great to me if something happened.

While I agree with your point, it's becoming a slippery slope in places - and it does not stand as proof that the fines/repercussions are valid.  In VA, they now have abusive drivers fees that are only for VA residents, and are well beyond reasonable.  Imagine failing to use your turn signal, and paying $3750 over 3 years plus an additional $750 for 7 because of the points.  Does that sound reasonable for changing lanes without a signal?

That's more in line with what is happening here.  A woman is being fined ~$9000 for songs that can be purchased for $1.  One might say that $9000 people downloaded each song from her so there was a loss to the label, but that has not been proven and has formed the grounds for an appeal.  I'm all for having a punishment that fits the crime, but this is the modern day version of losing a hand for stealing a loaf of bread.

Regarding your earlier post ...

By this logic, if you record a song off the radio and give a copy to your friend, you're breaking the law.

Radio stations pay fees to license music for public broadcast. It's intended purpose is to be heard the time of broadcast by recording it and redistributing you have in fact broken the law. The same applies to television shows and movies on pay channels. Youi can record them to be viewed at any time by you and your household. The minute you redistribute, sell or publicly exhibit or rebroadcast a transmission you are in violation of a usage license agreement. It is theft period end of story, hell Lars doesn't even like beiing on iTunes for 99 cents a song but that is legal.

As I've mentioned before, it would appear that the next step for the labels/RIAA would be to make it illegal to ever make a copy of anything.  So no more backups of your cds, no more mix tapes, etc.  They've already claimed it is stealing - they just need to modify the law to back them up.  And I have more faith that they'll be able to accomplish that than in our congress to stop them.

Theft is theft plain and simple

It's not that clear.  Is there theft if there is no loss?  How do you steal something that has no value.  I understand that in theory, it's that black and white with no gray area, but look at is this way.  If I stole your bike, and the cops couldn't prove it, and I was acquitted, did I commit a theft?  Legally, no.  Even if I then drove it to your house to show you I'd taken it, legally, I did NOT steal it.  In another situation, if you're walking through a field with your girl, and pick wildflowers for her, you've stolen from the state (or whomever the owner is).  But there's no inherent value in the wildflowers so did you actually commit theft?  And should you be fined $50 for stealing the daisy?

no wonder artists are no longer putting out albums where the majority of an album was good material why put the time and effort forth when people are just going to steal it and they don't get paid.

Maybe this has more to do with the lack of talent in many (if not most) new artists.  Also, I think it has more to do with contractual issues.  The band has to put out in album in a year, regardless of whether they have enough good material - so they put in fluff.

I am done on this one try to convince the rest of the world it's right to take other people's shaZam!, but it's no different than going out and jacking bikes or cars. Just less volent.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  I wish it were as clear cut as you're making it, but I don't believe it is.  Regardless, nice to have fully thought out posts to reply to 

[MrDan]

Slippery slope ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7029892.stm

[Mandres]

This case is an abomination, and I hope it's overturned on constitutional appeal under the "Cruel and unusual punishment" heading.  To hell with the RIAA and its gestapo-style witch hunt and extortion.  Downloading music is a victimless crime, I don't care what the DMCA or the spokespeople for the music industry would have you believe.  Technology has made the recording and distribution hierarchy obsolete and pursuing retribution from those who are too weak to defend themselves shows just how desperate this dying monopoly has become.  I say let it die.

[yamahonkawazuki]

agreed, it IS theft, BUT i think the punishment was very severe. then again , i do not know the specifics here, BUT i hope it is reduced, if not overturned, or if punishment has to be madef, say price the fine, according to cd prices, say $15 for 10 songs

[asobi]

agreed, it IS theft, BUT i think the punishment was very severe. then again , i do not know the specifics here, BUT i hope it is reduced, if not overturned, or if punishment has to be madef, say price the fine, according to cd prices, say $15 for 10 songs

It's copyright infringement, not theft.

[Oklahoma_Mike]

It's not that clear.  Is there theft if there is no loss?  How do you steal something that has no value.  I understand that in theory, it's that black and white with no gray area, but look at is this way.  If I stole your bike, and the cops couldn't prove it, and I was acquitted, did I commit a theft?  Legally, no.  Even if I then drove it to your house to show you I'd taken it, legally, I did NOT steal it.  In another situation, if you're walking through a field with your girl, and pick wildflowers for her, you've stolen from the state (or whomever the owner is).  But there's no inherent value in the wildflowers so did you actually commit theft?  And should you be fined $50 for stealing the daisy?

That is a very good way of putting it. Kudos.

If it keeps going this way were will it all end?
Before you know it you will be charged for each breath you take because someones tree put that O2 in the air for you.
Damn shame what this country has come too.

[jserio]

the other great american pastime.......lawsuits. 

[nightrider]

It's not that clear.  Is there theft if there is no loss?  How do you steal something that has no value.  I understand that in theory, it's that black and white with no gray area, but look at is this way.  If I stole your bike, and the cops couldn't prove it, and I was acquitted, did I commit a theft?  Legally, no.  Even if I then drove it to your house to show you I'd taken it, legally, I did NOT steal it.  In another situation, if you're walking through a field with your girl, and pick wildflowers for her, you've stolen from the state (or whomever the owner is).  But there's no inherent value in the wildflowers so did you actually commit theft?  And should you be fined $50 for stealing the daisy?

That is a very good way of putting it. Kudos.

If it keeps going this way were will it all end?
Before you know it you will be charged for each breath you take because someones tree put that O2 in the air for you.
Damn shame what this country has come too.

Daisies are not a good metaphor. Music is original and unique, and by being able to access it online for free, the musicians are not getting paid for the use of their work by their entire listening public. Maybe that public wouldn't have bought the music anyway, but a percentage of them would have. In this way, artists are at risk of making a reduced living, or maybe in some cases, not making a living at all.

I still do it. 

[Oklahoma_Mike]

Well the world need ditch diggers too.

I am just kidding, but I totally disagree. The sky is Blue!

[asobi]

Daisies are not a good metaphor. Music is original and unique, and by being able to access it online for free, the musicians are not getting paid for the use of their work by their entire listening public. Maybe that public wouldn't have bought the music anyway, but a percentage of them would have. In this way, artists are at risk of making a reduced living, or maybe in some cases, not making a living at all.

I still do it. 

Bottom line - if I didn't download albums I've heard good things about with bittorrent, I wouldn't buy half the music I do.  And I hit RIAA Radar first before buying anything so I know whether I should buy it new or used - used sales don't bolster the recording industry's lawsuits against individuals.

I suspect many others feel the same way.  All the arguments against peer to peer could presumably be posed against radio too - either traditional, online or software.  The problem for the recording industry is that peer to peer takes the control over distribution and promotion out of their hands and gets people interested in indie music because they can actually hear it before buying it now.

If you want justification for copyright infringement look no further than the payola that reeks from almost every Clear Channel station.  You won't hear indie music on any of them.  They want to play fast and loose with the law, we can too.

[jserio]

It's not that clear.  Is there theft if there is no loss?  How do you steal something that has no value.  I understand that in theory, it's that black and white with no gray area, but look at is this way.  If I stole your bike, and the cops couldn't prove it, and I was acquitted, did I commit a theft?  Legally, no.  Even if I then drove it to your house to show you I'd taken it, legally, I did NOT steal it.  In another situation, if you're walking through a field with your girl, and pick wildflowers for her, you've stolen from the state (or whomever the owner is).  But there's no inherent value in the wildflowers so did you actually commit theft?  And should you be fined $50 for stealing the daisy?

That is a very good way of putting it. Kudos.

If it keeps going this way were will it all end?
Before you know it you will be charged for each breath you take because someones tree put that O2 in the air for you.
Damn shame what this country has come too.

Daisies are not a good metaphor. Music is original and unique, and by being able to access it online for free, the musicians are not getting paid for the use of their work by their entire listening public. Maybe that public wouldn't have bought the music anyway, but a percentage of them would have. In this way, artists are at risk of making a reduced living, or maybe in some cases, not making a living at all.

I still do it. 

not making a living? or taking a "loss"? are u kidding me? half of these so-called, "artists" have $15 million dollar mansions, have 5 or more cars. 3 yacths....should i go on? my point is they aren't really losing as much as they say they are. many of them can't even sing, or play an intrument. so what intellecutaly property do they have? i think it's sad when someone who merely sings for a living makes more money than the president, or the dr who's responsible for your life when something goes wrong.  i haven't bought a new cd in so long i almost don't remember what it was. wait, i do. a james blount cd for my wife last year. i'm sick of paying $15 or more for a cd and only getting one maybe two songs that are worth a damn.

[nightrider]

[/quote]




not making a living? or taking a "loss"? are u kidding me? half of these so-called, "artists" have $15 million dollar mansions, have 5 or more cars. 3 yacths....should i go on? my point is they aren't really losing as much as they say they are. many of them can't even sing, or play an intrument. so what intellecutaly property do they have? i think it's sad when someone who merely sings for a living makes more money than the president, or the dr who's responsible for your life when something goes wrong.  i haven't bought a new cd in so long i almost don't remember what it was. wait, i do. a james blount cd for my wife last year. i'm sick of paying $15 or more for a cd and only getting one maybe two songs that are worth a damn.
[/quote]

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