Author Topic: #LadyRiderProblems  (Read 596 times)

Offline mysho22

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2017, 03:48:35 AM »
This is true. Sexiness is not sexism, and if she was obviously doing this for you and your friend, or for herself with the knowledge you were watching thats completely fine! I 110% support that. I too, have done some of this for my partner's attention, and enjoyed the sexy/bad ass feeling of riding, and my own femininity intersecting to make me a female rider.
The issues come from the obvious mentions of, "ask your boyfriend to do it," rather than assuming I can wrench on my bike myself, or the over criticism or over congratulations. These can be frustrating, as well as people, men mostly from what I've witnessed, ogling as I take off my jacket after a ride. I'm clumsy and sweaty, not trying to be sexy. I'm not saying it can never be flattering, but it can easily start to feel ridiculous. I get it, I'm a lady on a motorcycle. I'd say to take a picture, but thats super creepy and please don't.
A friend of mine, also a young woman who rides, is a welder and pretty damn good at it. She notices that often if she tried to have a conversation about this, or joins a conversation about this, men have a hard time accepting she can be any good at it. Like it will damage their "man card" that a female is ALSO good at welding, maybe even better than them at this.
She has also told me many stories of men who have been riding much shorter of a time than her, and try to give her basic pointers and tips that she knows and has known since she began to ride. When talking to another man riding as long as her, these same people won't bring up these basic tips and pointers.
This is not to attack men in the slightest, but to bring awareness to this and just make sure you aren't contributing to things like this. They are frustrating and degrading to females. By all means please feel sexy on your bike, and do sexy things on your bike!!! I'm all about that!! Just don't necessarily force us into this same box unless we want to be there, ya know?

Will read the article later!!
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Offline Joolstacho

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2017, 11:48:43 PM »
Absolutely mysho22. And 'More power to your arm' as the saying goes. Respect to the females who, I agree, sometimes have to put up with patronising comments.
ShowBiz, hopefully we aren't too puritanical on here, and can deal with a little mischievous humour.  :thumb:
I dunno, actually I find both you girls attractive... Am I even allowed to say that nowadays though? If not, the World has come to a very sorry state!
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Offline ShowBizWolf

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2017, 11:53:09 PM »
You made my night Jools :kiss3:  :oops:  :laugh:

Sometimes when I dig around through old threads (like 10 years ago-ish) I see how different this forum used to be! I can't say I'd be as comfortable here back then as I am now... but there are some times where I wish there was a tiny bit more humor and silliness here than what there is.
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Offline mysho22

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2017, 02:06:28 AM »
http://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-plight-of-women-motorcyclists/

mysho, give this article a read.

Thanks for sharing this article! It was a great read with some great points
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Offline user11235813

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2017, 05:48:44 AM »
I know I couldn't do this, https://youtu.be/pEnw1OKyOV4

Offline mr72

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 03:17:32 PM »
Ladies, I get it. But you have to give some of us guys a bit of a break. There are some legitimate reasons besides sexism that explain some of these issues.

Less selection, more expensive gear: this is simply a supply and demand problem. I work in product management, and this is a problem I am extremely familiar with. Companies make products to meet demand and make a profit. So usually they make things that will sell to 90% of the market, and that 10% stuff is niche product which will be extremely limited in production, making for scarcity and keeping prices high. In short, the only way in a free-market economy to change this is for millions more women to ride and buy this kind of gear. Likewise the "pink" stuff, my suspicion is that manufacturers find that women who shop for this stuff in retail stores use this coloring as sort of a gross indicator of how to find what is a niche and limited supply product in a store. In other words, if they made it black and and red and blue like all the guy's stuff, then these items would get lost in the sea of men's stuff in the store and more women would take one look on the showroom floor and immediately assume there are no women's products there. Having pink stuff draws women's attention to it and kind of says "see here's the women's stuff!". Downside? You get pink stuff. This is not unique to motorcycle gear. The same thing happens with running, cycling, climbing, etc. virtually all sports equipment because pretty much most gear-type sports and activities include mostly men so retailers have to have a way to make women's gear stand out. The American way is pink.

And as for the surprise that women ride, again this is not necessarily sexism. I'd have to guess that probably 95% of motorcyclists are males. And probably 90% of women with a motorcycle helmet are passengers and not pilots. So given this kind of extreme majority, it's a pretty safe assumption that any woman who shows up amongst a group of other motorcyclists is likely a passenger. And it's fair enough to be surprised to find that you are in the extreme minority.

BTW about the suggestion that you get your boyfriend or husband to install or fix stuff, well I have two daughters who are 21 and 24 years old and neither one has ever had any interest in ever trying to fix or repair anything mechanical no matter how much I tried to get them involved. But it's not just the girls. Most of their friends regardless of gender also have no idea which end of a ratchet attaches to a socket. This is generational as much as anything. But still it's a plain reality that for whatever reason, it's far more common for men to have tools and know how to use them at least a little bit than it is for women of the same age to do so, regardless of generation. When my wife goes to an auto parts store and buys something, she's more than happy to bring it home and expect me to install it. Why wouldn't the guy behind the counter expect it? Try not to get so offended. Again, the solution is, women and girls start to work on stuff so that this difference in actual real world behavior doesn't actually exist.

It's not sexism when expectations align with statistics. You're the outlier. You should embrace this. Most women don't ride motorcycles for whatever reason, you're special because you do. Most women won't replace as much as a wiper blade and you rebuilt your fork? That's awesome and you are truly a unique and special woman who can do that. Don't get offended when someone is surprised by this, instead take the opportunity to brag and relish the experience of being so unique.

IMHO.

I just had a similar conversation with my daughter who will graduate in the spring with a political science degree from A&M, she's considering what job to try to get. I told her to use her uniqueness as a young, cute, conservative woman who is well-spoken, writes well and is very well-informed politically, since that makes her a unicorn in the field. Hey, it's awesome to be a unicorn. The same applies for women who ride motorcycles and can replace their brake pads or adjust their valves.

IMHO.

Wish I could talk my wife into at least riding with me as a passenger. I tried real hard to get her to try riding a scooter, she won't. I work on this all the time. Believe me, most of the time when a guy is surprised you ride, it's a positive surprise. He's probably not denigrating you because you are a woman.

Offline user11235813

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2017, 08:21:33 PM »
@Mr72, nicely said.

Offline Bluesmudge

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2017, 11:15:38 PM »
I will preface my post by saying that I am a man so my viewpoint on sexism can only carry so much weight since I can't experience it myself.

Try not to get so offended. Again, the solution is, women and girls start to work on stuff so that this difference in actual real world behavior doesn't actually exist.

Mr72, I think that is kind of messed up to require women as an entire gender to start wrenching and riding more before men treat them equally.
The proper thing to do is acknowledge that we as men have a biased view of women riding and wrenching and make a conscious effort to treat them no differently than we would treat a man in the same situation. This actually takes some effort on our part, because like you said we are very aware of how rarely we see women in this hobby and we are used to seeing women more as an accessory on the back of a bike or being an umbrella girl at the Moto GP. If a women wants to talk about how great it is that she is one of the few female riders, that's fine but let her bring it up. If we don't make the effort to treat women equally then women will always be fighting an uphill battle to be able to enjoy these activities as easily as men.

Its very unlikely that the cause of women being underrepresented in the motorcycling world is women as a gender having less potential to enjoy wrenching and riding. The more likely cause of women being underrepresented in motorcycling is that the society that we live in reinforces particular gender norms from an early age and continues to push more men into motor sports and fixing things. If you exposed a young girl to wrenching and riding at a very early age before she has a chance to notice what society expects of her then she is much more likely to become part of our motorcycling world.

It's not sexism when expectations align with statistics.
That's exactly what sexism is. What else could it be? A woman you are being sexist to didn't single handedly create the statistics your gender expectations are based on.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:21:20 PM by Bluesmudge »

Offline mr72

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2017, 01:49:31 AM »

Try not to get so offended. Again, the solution is, women and girls start to work on stuff so that this difference in actual real world behavior doesn't actually exist.

Mr72, I think that is kind of messed up to require women as an entire gender to start wrenching and riding more before men treat them equally.
...
It's not sexism when expectations align with statistics.


That's exactly what sexism is.

No, it's not. And I can see you completely missed my point.

Sexism is when someone says: you can't do that or you are inferior or incapable because you are a woman. That requires intent. It's entirely different to make a statistically valid estimate of likely traits based on gender and well-known and accepted probability. Statistics, probabilities, that has no emotional content or malicious intent.

It's just way too common in today's society to assume (as you did, regarding my post) malicious intent when there is none. We just kind of need to ease up and cut people some slack. It's rare for women to be involved in motorcycling, and rarer still for them to know how to work on a motorcycle, because among motorcyclists, of which only a tiny minority are women, only a very small number work on their own bikes. There are exceptions, for sure. But those who are exceptions ought to cut some slack to everyone else who might not guess they are an exception. That's kind of the definition of being the exception. We are doomed to fail at communicating as a people if we insist on being offended every chance we get.

BTW there's a huge difference between the "gender expectation" you suggest and an innocent guess based on probability. Again, it's intent. And again, you ignored my post's intent, even though after reading it again, it seems pretty clear to me. You'd have to work pretty hard to read it the way you apparently did.

I am sincerely sorry I posted on this topic. Should have known better. I'll stand down now. :)  :thumb:

Offline yamahonkawazuki

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2017, 01:54:06 AM »
it used to be a rare thing to see a woman who got her hands dirty on her own ride. ( or someone elses) nowadays not so much. more power to em. if they want to get theior hands dirty, who am i or anyone else  to say anything about it.
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Offline user11235813

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2017, 02:10:19 AM »
Women are not female men.

Offline ShowBizWolf

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2017, 02:31:39 AM »
This is very entertaining!! :cheers:

I've always kinda considered myself to be a female man at times... :hmmm: :icon_rolleyes:
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Offline Bluesmudge

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2017, 03:21:45 AM »
Mr72, I know you didnít have any malicious intent. What I am trying to do is get you to re-examine your thinking on sexism. The world has been a very sexist place for a very long time and for that to change a lot of people are going to have to realize how their assumptions effect other people. Try to think of it from the female perspective instead of as a man making an innocent comment based on statistical inference. What seems innocent to you may be harmful to someone else.
Itís obvious we have different ideas of the definition of sexism.
I donít believe that sexism (or any ism for that matter) requires any degree of intent. There could be intent, but there could also be ignorance.

I see sexism to be defined by how things are received, not by how they are intended.

Statistics themselves are emotionless but improperly applied they can be prejudicial. Itís obvious from this thread that not all women motorcyclists want to be singled out or have interactions based primarily on their gender whenever they get on a bike. I think that should be enough to want to try and stop  singling out women on motorcycles based on their gender.
No matter what the statistics are or how much they back up an innocent guess about someone we shouldnít feel okay about acting on those assumptions. If you got on an airplane and noticed that there was a female by the cockpit door would it be okay to ask her to get you a soda? Statistically she is much more likely to be a flight attendant than a pilot and so itís an innocent assumption, right? Although that comment may seem innocent it might also be emotionally damaging to a  female pilot trying to break into a male dominated field where she already has to deal with a lot of subdued sexism based on stereotypes. This is an extreme example but itís the same idea when it comes to making motorcycling a hard sport for women to get into. As men we need to stop thinking about how innocent our comments are and start thinking about how they might make someone feel. Asking people not to be offended is just another way of saying, ďYou should accept my point of view so I donít have to think about yoursĒ
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:24:09 AM by Bluesmudge »

Offline qcbaker

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 03:25:55 AM »
BTW about the suggestion that you get your boyfriend or husband to install or fix stuff, well I have two daughters who are 21 and 24 years old and neither one has ever had any interest in ever trying to fix or repair anything mechanical no matter how much I tried to get them involved. But it's not just the girls. Most of their friends regardless of gender also have no idea which end of a ratchet attaches to a socket. This is generational as much as anything.

I think part of the reason people are less interested in DIY repairs for vehicles/appliances nowadays is the fact that as time goes on, equipment becomes more and more complicated and its a lot harder now to just pick up a couple tools and fix your car/fridge/HVAC unit/etc than it was even say 10 years ago. Which is why bikes like the GS are often seen as great beginner bikes, because they're pretty easy to work on, for the most part.

As for your daughters, at least you try to get them involved. If they don't want to fix stuff, that's their choice, but at least you gave them the choice. Sometimes parents don't even try. A woman at my job told me that she hopes her next child is a boy because she thought her husband would want to have someone to do "guy stuff" with. I asked her what she mean't by "guy stuff" and she replied with "oh you know, hunting, fishing, football, that kind of thing." I just said "couldn't you just take your daughter to do those things? There's no reason you can't go hunting or fishing with her..." She just said "I guess, but it's not the same." I just stopped because I didn't want to seem like I was telling her how to parent her kid. But I felt really bad for her daughter. As someone who loves to fish, it makes me upset that her husband wouldn't even consider taking their daughter fishing just because she's a girl.

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But still it's a plain reality that for whatever reason, it's far more common for men to have tools and know how to use them at least a little bit than it is for women of the same age to do so, regardless of generation. When my wife goes to an auto parts store and buys something, she's more than happy to bring it home and expect me to install it. Why wouldn't the guy behind the counter expect it?

That's fine if that's the dynamic you have in your family, but it's kind of rude to just assume, based basically nothing but the fact that they're female, that a woman isn't interested in doing something like that. You are making a judgement about someone you don't know based on nothing but their gender. That is sexism.

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Try not to get so offended.

When a person tells you that you hurt them, you don't get to decide that you didn't. I really don't like when people have this attitude. But, it can be very difficult as someone who doesn't experience sexism on a regular basis to understand how these types of assumptions can hurt people's feelings. As a man, I often make this mistake as well. I just try to recognize when I do it, and try to do it less.

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Again, the solution is, women and girls start to work on stuff so that this difference in actual real world behavior doesn't actually exist.

I agree that if more women were wrenching and riding, people would make less assumptions, but you need to think about the reasons why women aren't currently doing that. Don't you think it might be beneficial for men, the majority group in riding (who by and large WANT more women to ride and be a part of the riding community) to use a little introspection and think about why exactly more women aren't attracted to riding the way guys are? I think that assumptions like the "ask your boyfriend to do it" are part of the problem. It creates a hostile environment. Who wants to be part of a community that constantly is condescending to you based on your gender?

 And if you think the counterargument to "women aren't attracted to riding because the community can be condescending or even hostile at times" is "don't get so offended" then maybe you're part of the problem? If you refuse to empathize and try to understand why women feel the way they do when men make comments like that, then you're not really helping the community become more welcoming for women riders.

That's exactly what sexism is.

No, it's not. And I can see you completely missed my point.

Sexism is when someone says: you can't do that or you are inferior or incapable because you are a woman. That requires intent. It's entirely different to make a statistically valid estimate of likely traits based on gender and well-known and accepted probability. Statistics, probabilities, that has no emotional content or malicious intent.

sexism
noun |  \ ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm \

1.) prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2.) behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Straight from Merriam-Webster. Notice how "intent" is not required? Your "estimate of likely traits based on gender" is an attitude that fosters stereotypes of social roles based on sex. Ergo, it is sexist to assume a woman doesn't cant or doesn't want to fix things just because "most women don't like to fix things." Obviously, this is a different kind of sexism than actively believing yourself superior based on sex, but it is still sexism. I don't think you think women are inferior, and I don't think bluesmudge thinks that either. But yes, you are being sexist. I don't think you're being malicious, but that doesn't mean your comment wasn't sexist.

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It's just way too common in today's society to assume (as you did, regarding my post) malicious intent when there is none. We just kind of need to ease up and cut people some slack. It's rare for women to be involved in motorcycling, and rarer still for them to know how to work on a motorcycle, because among motorcyclists, of which only a tiny minority are women, only a very small number work on their own bikes. There are exceptions, for sure. But those who are exceptions ought to cut some slack to everyone else who might not guess they are an exception. That's kind of the definition of being the exception. We are doomed to fail at communicating as a people if we insist on being offended every chance we get.

I don't think he was assuming malicious intent. And if you ask me, you're the one doing that, honestly. The fact of the matter is that it is sexist behavior to make assumptions about people based on their gender. It would be sexist for a woman to assume I love sports because I'm a man, even if most men like sports. And it would be sexist for me to assume a woman doesn't like wrenching because she's a woman, even if most women don't wrench.

And again, you don't get to decide your comments aren't offensive. And people aren't offended by choice. That's not how it works. Maybe instead of insisting that you're not being offensive, you can try and understand why someone might be offended by your comments.

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BTW there's a huge difference between the "gender expectation" you suggest and an innocent guess based on probability. Again, it's intent. And again, you ignored my post's intent, even though after reading it again, it seems pretty clear to me. You'd have to work pretty hard to read it the way you apparently did.

I get that your intent wasn't malicious, but like I said before, intent isn't required for something to be sexist. And you're right, there is a difference. Being unintentionally sexist and being intentionally sexist are indeed two different things. You were unintentionally sexist.

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I am sincerely sorry I posted on this topic. Should have known better. I'll stand down now. :)  :thumb:

This bit here is just kind of rude. And before you say I'm "assuming malicious intent", I want to re-iterate that I believe you are definitely not being malicious, but I want you to understand that you were definitely being sexist. I don't mean that as an insult, it just is literally the truth.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:56:35 PM by qcbaker »

Offline pliskin

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2017, 02:35:30 PM »
**trigger warning, my next comments are not meant to be mean**
I have a more animalistic view of things. I don't get bent out of shape or even think twice about being treated like a man when called on by women to do "man things" (i.e. pick up heavy things, getting my hands dirty, fix things using tools, being an unpaid bodyguard to women around me when called on, etc.). It happens to me  every day, all day long, literally.  I'm ok with getting used/stereotyped. I think most women realize this as well. I can plainly see women and men are different and I think it's normal to act differently or treat the other sex different based on stereotypes (abuse/violence against the opposite sex is unacceptable).  Stereotype are real reflections IMO. Facts are facts and men do better at some things and women others. There is always exceptions to that rule...and that's fine. I think some women bikers, firemen, laborers, etc. are very attractive. But don't expect me to act like we are equals in the broad sense. Men are sexist and so are women and I think that is a good thing. That's what makes the world go-round. Embrace your animal self and roll with it. Own that shift. It's more about competitiveness than it is sexism and somebody's gotta win and somebody's gotta lose.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:49:35 PM by pliskin »
Why are you looking here?

Offline pliskin

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2017, 02:46:46 PM »
OOPS double post
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:50:26 PM by pliskin »
Why are you looking here?

Offline qcbaker

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2017, 03:44:54 PM »
**trigger warning, my next comments are not meant to be mean**
I have a more animalistic view of things. I don't get bent out of shape or even think twice about being treated like a man when called on by women to do "man things" (i.e. pick up heavy things, getting my hands dirty, fix things using tools, being an unpaid bodyguard to women around me when called on, etc.). It happens to me  every day, all day long, literally.  I'm ok with getting used/stereotyped. I think most women realize this as well. I can plainly see women and men are different and I think it's normal to act differently or treat the other sex different based on stereotypes (abuse/violence against the opposite sex is unacceptable).  Stereotype are real reflections IMO. Facts are facts and men do better at some things and women others. There is always exceptions to that rule...and that's fine. I think some women bikers, firemen, laborers, etc. are very attractive. But don't expect me to act like we are equals in the broad sense. Men are sexist and so are women and I think that is a good thing. That's what makes the world go-round. Embrace your animal self and roll with it. Own that shift. It's more about competitiveness than it is sexism and somebody's gotta win and somebody's gotta lose.

I mean... I guess that's one way to look at it. I disagree with the bit about stereotypes, but I think I get your point?

I don't think that people are trying to deny that there are differences between men and women. Obviously, there are physical characteristics that lead to men and women being naturally better at certain things. But a lot of perceived "differences" are really just gender roles that we have a society have created. Masculinity and femininity are basically just constructs. This isn't always an objectively "bad" thing, since it can often feel good to do "manly" stuff. Sometimes as a man, you just wanna feel "manly", and that's totally fine. And it goes the same for women. If a woman wants to do "girly" stuff because she likes it and wants to feel feminine, that's totally fine. But it can be problematic when people shame others for doing things that don't align with their societal gender role. For example, if a guy likes to sew or bake cookies or other traditionally "girly" things, sometimes other men will make fun of them for doing so. Assuming a woman isn't capable of performing a repair because "most women don't do that kind of thing" is much the same.

Offline mr72

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2017, 04:01:26 PM »
it's kind of rude to just assume, based basically nothing but the fact that they're female, that a woman isn't interested in doing something like that. You are making a judgement about someone you don't know based on nothing but their gender. That is sexism.

I completely disagree. And I think this is the core problem. An [innocent, well-intended] assumption is not a judgment. If I don't think it's LIKELY you know how to fix your motorcycle is not even remotely the same thing as me thinking you are not CAPABLE of fixing your own motorcycle. Regardless of gender. I mean, when I meet a 25 year old guy with a man bun and skinny jeans, I think he's unlikely to have any clue how to fix anything. If I meet a 25 year old hipster woman I think the same thing for the same reason but with the woman, that's sexist? That's asinine and frankly I find that's a lot of what's wrong with our society.

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When a person tells you that you hurt them, you don't get to decide that you didn't.

Again, I completely disagree. We all choose how we react to interactions with other people. We make similar choices over time when encountering similar interactions, and this becomes a habitual response. It goes both ways, by the way, as many people develop problems by conditioning themselves to not react negatively to truly malicious interactions, but the way a person reacts to an individual interaction is at least partly if not mostly a learned behavior. It is definitely something you can control and change given time and practice.

As evidence, I submit my daughters and my wife. None of them would react this way to "sexist" assumptions. How is it incumbent on the third party to read the mind of the person they are communicating with and determine whether they happen to have a sensitivity that will result in judging the interaction as sexist? or racist or anti-whatever, or whatever other judgment we want to make about how people interact for that matter...

And again, is it not just as "sexist" (as pilskin astutely pointed out) for a woman to ask me to lift something heavy or reach something on a high shelf (I mean, men are on average, taller...) or help change a tire or do whatever other "guy" stuff? Am I then incapable of choosing not to be offended when this happens?


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you need to think about the reasons why women aren't currently doing that. Don't you think it might be beneficial for men, the majority group in riding (who by and large WANT more women to ride and be a part of the riding community) to use a little introspection and think about why exactly more women aren't attracted to riding the way guys are?

Why? Why must men take responsibility for why women en masse choose to not engage in an activity? That makes no sense. But this is popular group-think, the idea that women or men or immigrants or gays or whatever all only think as a group and therefore a common cause must apply to all of their choices which they tend to make in common, and such a common cause must be some kind of flaw. Is it not OK for women to just generally not prefer motorcycling? Do we, as a society, really care? I don't really see how there's a clear obvious judgment to be made here. Again, my observation point is my wife of 25 years and my two daughters and none of them either have any desire whatsoever to even come near a motorcycle and it's very clear that they never will. How is it any more sexist to say "that's ok" than it is to assume this is a problem and that women must somehow become included in a "men's" activity? Why can't it be ok for them to choose to do whatever they want to do and nobody gets upset about it or thinks it needs to be fixed?

I just don't see it as a problem at all that more women are not interested in motorcycling. Women can each choose whatever they want to do, more power to them. If they don't want to ride a motorcycle, what's wrong with that?

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"women aren't attracted to riding because the community can be condescending or even hostile at times" is "don't get so offended" then maybe you're part of the problem?

It's quite a leap to think the "community" is hostile or condescending, but again, being condescending or hostile are also personal individual choices people make, and they imply intent. So sure, if people in the community are condescending or hostile, they should quit doing that. Some people are jerks, and some of those jerks are sexists.

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If you refuse to empathize and try to understand why women feel the way they do when men make comments like that, then you're not really helping the community become more welcoming for women riders.

Practically speaking, I think it's impossible for the "community", which is comprised of maybe millions of individual people, to become commonly more welcoming. How I feel about it has absolutely no bearing on it. I think for women who want to be involved in motorcycling, as individuals, it is far more productive for them to cut other people some slack, and try to assume the best when people interact with them. That has nothing to do with the "community". If most of the guys with motorcycles just innocently assume things based on their cumulative experience then don't jump to the conclusion that they are either condescending (intent), rude (intent), hostile (intent), or making a judgment, maybe wait until they actually show signs of hostility or judgment before becoming offended. That applies to all interactions regardless of whether it's the category of sexism or whatever else.

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This bit here is just kind of rude. And before you say I'm "assuming malicious intent", I want to re-iterate that I believe you are definitely not being malicious, but I want you to understand that you were definitely being sexist. I don't mean that as an insult, it just is literally the truth.

And I literally think you are absolutely wrong. But that's ok! I'm really not being rude or upset at all, just not happy to have stirred debate on this topic since it so often just causes knee-jerk overreaction and it's difficult to have an honest, unemotional conversation about it.

Offline qcbaker

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2017, 06:39:13 PM »
I completely disagree. And I think this is the core problem. An [innocent, well-intended] assumption is not a judgment. If I don't think it's LIKELY you know how to fix your motorcycle is not even remotely the same thing as me thinking you are not CAPABLE of fixing your own motorcycle. Regardless of gender. I mean, when I meet a 25 year old guy with a man bun and skinny jeans, I think he's unlikely to have any clue how to fix anything. If I meet a 25 year old hipster woman I think the same thing for the same reason but with the woman, that's sexist? That's asinine and frankly I find that's a lot of what's wrong with our society.

It's only sexist if you assume she cant (or doesn't want to) fix stuff because she's a woman. If it's because shes a young, hipster type person, then no, it's not sexist. Re-read the definition of sexism. It's only when you make assumptions and/or judgements based on sex.

Also:

judgement

a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing careful judgment of the odds
b : an opinion or estimate so formed

In this case you are forming an opinion based on "the odds" (most women dont wrench, therefore this woman probably does not wrench). This judgement is sexist.

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Again, I completely disagree. We all choose how we react to interactions with other people.

You can choose what actions you take in response to something, yes. But being offended is not an action. It's a feeling. You can't control how something makes you feel. You can't just choose to not be offended. If your words cause me to feel offended, you were being offensive. You don't get to decide otherwise. Plain and simple.

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We make similar choices over time when encountering similar interactions, and this becomes a habitual response. It goes both ways, by the way, as many people develop problems by conditioning themselves to not react negatively to truly malicious interactions, but the way a person reacts to an individual interaction is at least partly if not mostly a learned behavior. It is definitely something you can control and change given time and practice.

It kind of sounds like you want people to just pretend you didn't offend them, and over time just become numb to your offensive behavior. I don't agree that this is the correct mentality and I'm honestly not sure how else to explain that instead of insisting you aren't being offensive, you should try to be less offensive.

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As evidence, I submit my daughters and my wife. None of them would react this way to "sexist" assumptions. How is it incumbent on the third party to read the mind of the person they are communicating with and determine whether they happen to have a sensitivity that will result in judging the interaction as sexist? or racist or anti-whatever, or whatever other judgment we want to make about how people interact for that matter...

1. How your family reacts to the way you act is not an indicator for how other people will react.

2. I'm not asking you to read anyone's mind. I'm asking you not to try not to make judgements about people based on their sex (or race, or sexual orientation, etc.).

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And again, is it not just as "sexist" (as pilskin astutely pointed out) for a woman to ask me to lift something heavy or reach something on a high shelf (I mean, men are on average, taller...) or help change a tire or do whatever other "guy" stuff? Am I then incapable of choosing not to be offended when this happens?

I'm not saying it's impossible for you to not be offended. If that type of thing doesn't offend you personally, then that's fine. I'm just saying that that feeling isn't something that is chosen. Just as you can't choose to actually be offended by this, someone who is offended can't just choose not to be. And again, it's all in the reason behind why that woman is asking you to do that. If she's asking you to do it simply because you're a man, then yeah that would be sexist. Whether or not it offends you has nothing to do with it. But if she's asking you to do it simply because you're stronger than her, then I wouldn't call that sexist.

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Why? Why must men take responsibility for why women en masse choose to not engage in an activity? That makes no sense.

I'm not saying it's our job as men to get more women into motorcycling or that is isn't okay for women to not want to ride. I'm saying that it might be beneficial for us as men to examine the reasons why women aren't attracted to motorcycling. And if one of the reasons is that men can be jerks by making assumptions and judgements (like the one in mysho's story), then we as men should probably try to address that.

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But this is popular group-think, the idea that women or men or immigrants or gays or whatever all only think as a group and therefore a common cause must apply to all of their choices which they tend to make in common, and such a common cause must be some kind of flaw.

I don't mean to purport that all women (or any other group) all think the same, but if a large amount of them feel a certain way about something, they we as men should probably at least try to empathize and understand why they feel that way.

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Is it not OK for women to just generally not prefer motorcycling? Do we, as a society, really care? I don't really see how there's a clear obvious judgment to be made here.

It's totally okay if women just don't prefer motorcycling. But, I think we should care about why that is. Because right now, the answer is either :dunno_black: or that men sometimes create a barrier to entry by creating a hostile environment. And I don't mean that to say that men actively degrade or make fun of women for riding, but assumptions about their skills can be discouraging and that's something we as men should try to avoid.

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Again, my observation point is my wife of 25 years and my two daughters and none of them either have any desire whatsoever to even come near a motorcycle and it's very clear that they never will. How is it any more sexist to say "that's ok" than it is to assume this is a problem and that women must somehow become included in a "men's" activity? Why can't it be ok for them to choose to do whatever they want to do and nobody gets upset about it or thinks it needs to be fixed?

1. Your observation point is a sample size of 3 women. Not exactly indicative of the mentality of women as a whole, IMO. But that's kind of beside the point.

2. Do you consider motorcycling a "men's activity"? If so, why? Just because it's mostly men who do it? There's nothing inherently "male" about motorcycling.

3. Again, I'm not saying it isn't okay for women to choose not to ride. I don't really know where your getting that from, as I don't think I said anything like that. All I'm saying is that if someone asks "Why aren't women as interested in motorcycling as men?" and you don't have an answer, then maybe we should talk about it and try to figure out the reason. That doesn't necessarily imply that the only reason is sexism. I personally believe that sexism is a part of it, yes, but it's obviously not the whole story.

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I just don't see it as a problem at all that more women are not interested in motorcycling. Women can each choose whatever they want to do, more power to them. If they don't want to ride a motorcycle, what's wrong with that?

Nothing, not in and of itself. There's only a problem if the reason women aren't interested is that men can make them feel unwelcome.

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It's quite a leap to think the "community" is hostile or condescending, but again, being condescending or hostile are also personal individual choices people make, and they imply intent. So sure, if people in the community are condescending or hostile, they should quit doing that. Some people are jerks, and some of those jerks are sexists.

It isn't a leap at all. Mysho described a situation in which a man was condescending to her. This situation is not uncommon in the motorcycling community. Therefore, the community can be seen as condescending at times. But I agree that those individuals should stop doing that, lol.

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Practically speaking, I think it's impossible for the "community", which is comprised of maybe millions of individual people, to become commonly more welcoming.

Maybe you're right. But, I don't think that means we shouldn't at least try. :dunno_black:

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How I feel about it has absolutely no bearing on it. I think for women who want to be involved in motorcycling, as individuals, it is far more productive for them to cut other people some slack, and try to assume the best when people interact with them. That has nothing to do with the "community". If most of the guys with motorcycles just innocently assume things based on their cumulative experience then don't jump to the conclusion that they are either condescending (intent), rude (intent), hostile (intent), or making a judgment, maybe wait until they actually show signs of hostility or judgment before becoming offended. That applies to all interactions regardless of whether it's the category of sexism or whatever else.

Condescension and rudeness do not require intent either. You can be rude or condescending without meaning to. I've been guilty of both more times than I care to admit. As for cutting people some slack, I'm not the type of person (as evidenced by my long winded posts about this) to let stuff like sexism just slide. If someone is being sexist, even if they don't intend to be (as I believe is the case in your other post) I think its more productive to call them out on it in an effort to get them to understand how what they are doing could be hurtful and hopefully get them to do it less.

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And I literally think you are absolutely wrong. But that's ok! I'm really not being rude or upset at all, just not happy to have stirred debate on this topic since it so often just causes knee-jerk overreaction and it's difficult to have an honest, unemotional conversation about it.

I just meant that little snippet at the end came off as rude. If that wasn't your intent, fine, but it seemed a little pretentious.

Also, I don't mean this as an insult and I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't really care if you "think" I'm wrong about whether or not you were being sexist. Your attitude fits the literal definition of sexism. So, you were being sexist. You don't get to "disagree". Again, I'm not trying to dismiss or insult you based on that, it just is literally true. At this point, I'm saying 2+2=4 and you're just going "well, I disagree".

And if you don't want to "stir debate" I'm happy to talk over PM or whatever. I'm attempting to do what you said: have an honest, unemotional conversation.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 06:54:10 PM by qcbaker »

Offline pliskin

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Re: #LadyRiderProblems
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2017, 09:25:29 PM »
 :thumb:
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 05:02:46 AM by pliskin »
Why are you looking here?