Author Topic: Video... article... looking to discuss  (Read 187 times)

Offline ShowBizWolf

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Video... article... looking to discuss
« on: April 20, 2017, 07:41:06 PM »
Not sure if anybody has seen this yet but wtf?? This kind of thing makes me mad... this is an example of why some people must absolutely hate motorcyclists.

http://www.cycleworld.com/driver-who-swerved-to-try-and-hit-motorcyclist-was-sentenced-to-15-years-in-prison?CMPID=20170420&spMailingID=28734637&spUserID=NzQ5OTQyNTgyOTgS1&spJobID=1022911033&spReportId=MTAyMjkxMTAzMwS2

If he lost his patience cuz the person was driving too slow or whatever and he HAD to pass on a double yellow like that, ffs please do it without a passenger... she was the one who ended up being treated in ICU... plus I mean... if you're gonna ride like that, ATGATT is even more important....

//end rant
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Offline Watcher

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 09:18:48 PM »
What is most unbelievable to me is the reaction of the driver to the whole situation.  "I don't care".  :cookoo:

Regardless of the behavior of the riders, it's not a justification for what was essentially assault with a deadly weapon.  They were in the wrong, but they weren't, and I hate to play this card since it's so cliche', "hurting anyone" by doing what they were doing.  It even looked like a relatively safe overtake, despite being illegal, as there was no oncoming traffic.
Just some pissed off, opinionated, full of himself old man who thought he could take justice into his own hands.  News flash, you can't, and that's why he's doing time.  I'm glad he got what was coming to him.


IIRC the riders suffered at worst broken bones, so they were definitely lucky.  I'm sure they'll be thinking twice about that kind of behavior from now on, granted if/when they are able to ride again.
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Offline ShowBizWolf

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 09:26:26 PM »
I certainly hope so. The article said the rider (operator of the bike) only had some rash but the chicky pillion ended up in intensive care. Back when I was a passenger on a bike and if the operator/driver EVER pulled some stupid a$$ sh*t like that I would be beyond pissed.
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Offline Big Rich

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 01:22:35 AM »
Good ol' "I dun care" William Crum.....

I don't know about the laws in TX, but passing on the double yellow isn't generally allowing "stop at all costs including deadly force". I mean, the guy took it way past the gray area straight into attempted murder. Looking at his history, there are definitely issues with his mentality - so I believe he shouldn't be allowed to mingle with the public again.

Are there federal laws in the US with passing on the double yellow? Either way, a moving violation shouldn't justify somebody going for vigilante justice.

Blah blah blah, etc etc etc, pui pui pui. I'm headed to bed.
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Offline rscottlow

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 08:14:59 AM »
Oh, this type of driver really cooks my grits  :nono:

I've encountered plenty of people who think it's cool to take motor vehicle law enforcement into their own hands. I'm not sure if it's a territorial thing or what, but I typically just seek an alternate route rather than trying to overtake if I have any inclination that they're going to go on the offensive. Unfortunately in this situation, based on the short video clip it appears that the rider was totally blindsided by the situation. And, while maybe not the perfect place to pass, being that it's a double-yellow, perhaps this was the safest place to pass. Judging by the video it looks like a straight stretch with plenty of visibility. I wouldn't hesitate to pass there based on what I saw.

Good ol' "I dun care" William Crum.....

Are there federal laws in the US with passing on the double yellow? Either way, a moving violation shouldn't justify somebody going for vigilante justice.


I don't believe there's a federal law, but the law is universal across all states. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...
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Offline qcbaker

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 08:35:27 AM »
Ahh, I remember this. That driver deserves his sentence, and hopefully it stands as an example to other would-be vigilantes.

I don't know about the laws in TX, but passing on the double yellow isn't generally allowing "stop at all costs including deadly force".
...
Are there federal laws in the US with passing on the double yellow? Either way, a moving violation shouldn't justify somebody going for vigilante justice.
...

As far as I am aware (and maybe mr72 knows better than I do), in Texas, it is legal to pass on a double yellow as long as it is clear if and only if the vehicle in front of you is travelling under the "minimum speed" for any given road.

So, the pass that the rider made was kind of a dumb thing to do in general (passing on a double yellow), but I don't believe it was illegal. This is cut and paste directly from the biker's GoFundMe page:

“Justwanted to say, went to court today for my passing rea no passing. AND THE TICKET WAS DISMISSED! Because in Texas, the minimum speed in a 60+ mph zone is 45 mph! He was doing over 10 miles an hour slower than that, which gave me the right to pass him! After everything was reviewed, he was going slower than 35 mph when i attempted to overtake him! So for everyone that has said this was my fault, i caused the accident, the State of Texas does not agree with you! I was following Texas law! I will not stop riding motorcycles! And Debra will not stop riding on the back of my bike with me either! She is healing very well and has been released to return to work, only light duty, and for no more than 4 hours a day! She still cannot lift anything with her right arm and is still looking at a long road of rehabilitation and recovering! We greatly appreciate everyones concerns, prayers, and generosity! Thank everybody that has donated to us! If it was not for you all, our family would be homeless right now without a penny to our name! We’re not completely out of the water yet, but we’re slowly getting there and i personally owe each and everyone of you all so much more than i could possibly express! God Bless each amd every one of you!!!”
(Excuse the typos/grammar, I literally just pasted what the dude had on the page)

But, even if it WAS illegal, the legally agreed upon punishment for that "crime" is a fine, maybe points or license suspension in severe cases. Not death. Even if the motorcyclist had been making an illegal pass, this would not be a "well, both people were in the wrong" type of situations. The biker tried to pass someone intentionally obstructing them (and the flow of traffic) to avoid incident. The driver then responded by attempting to murder him and his passenger. Not exactly "tit for tat" if you get what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:37:02 AM by qcbaker »

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 10:03:36 AM »
I wonder if there's any truth to his claim of being potentially homeless and penniless without donations.
If the driver was ruled at fault, and was JAILED because of it, shouldn't HE have been the one paying the hospital bills and everything?  He caused the crash, he's the only one that was ruled to have broken laws, and he got 15 years for vehicular assault or whatever it was.  That means he pays the legal fees, he pays for a new motorcycle, he pays for the treatment, yes?
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Offline qcbaker

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 10:28:32 AM »
I wonder if there's any truth to his claim of being potentially homeless and penniless without donations.
If the driver was ruled at fault, and was JAILED because of it, shouldn't HE have been the one paying the hospital bills and everything?  He caused the crash, he's the only one that was ruled to have broken laws, and he got 15 years for vehicular assault or whatever it was.  That means he pays the legal fees, he pays for a new motorcycle, he pays for the treatment, yes?

The driver was only convicted pretty recently and the accident occurred over a year ago. So, even if the driver was ordered to pay all that (not even thinking about whether or not he actually would be able to pay, which I think is unlikely) that's a long time to be out of work and under the stress of medical bills. I kind of doubt he would be literally homeless or penniless, but I can understand where he's coming from I guess. :dunno_black:

But the point I was trying to make is that ShowBiz (and quite a lot of other commenters I've seen) seemed to place blame on the rider for riding "unsafely" or "aggressively". I was trying to point out that the pass he made was actually legal. And even if it wasn't, making a pass on a double yellow isn't a crime that warrants death as a punishment. Nobody should view this as "an example of why some people must absolutely hate motorcyclists". The motorcyclist is not to blame here.

Offline rscottlow

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 10:37:03 AM »
I wonder if there's any truth to his claim of being potentially homeless and penniless without donations.
If the driver was ruled at fault, and was JAILED because of it, shouldn't HE have been the one paying the hospital bills and everything?  He caused the crash, he's the only one that was ruled to have broken laws, and he got 15 years for vehicular assault or whatever it was.  That means he pays the legal fees, he pays for a new motorcycle, he pays for the treatment, yes?

I think a lot of these scenarios are much more complex than that. He was convicted in a court of criminal law, but compensatory damages are typically awarded in a civil court. His auto insurance could have kicked in to pay the medical bills, but there are a lot of up front expenses (copays, transportation to and from hospitals and doctor visits, lost wages, etc.) that the insurance company may or may not send a check for right away. In a situation like this one, the insurer would probably wait for liability to be determined before they start forking over monies, even though it seems pretty clear cut to us.
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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 11:10:37 AM »
Nobody should view this as "an example of why some people must absolutely hate motorcyclists". The motorcyclist is not to blame here.

Many people see motorcyclists as a bunch of hooligans, and those who skirt the law and have the mentality that it's ok to run from cops only further this negative stigma.

Texas is an exception, not a rule, when it comes to their policy of passing on a double yellow.  Neither Illinois nor Arizona have any similar law on the book, and I've never heard anything similar about Indiana either.  Despite not living in IN, I would drive/ride there frequently enough that I read their rules of the road book (mostly for school-bus laws and such).


It is not ok what the driver did, there is no justification for his actions, and I would hold to this statement regardless of the legality of what the motorcyclists did.  I made this statement before I even knew that fact about Texas.
However, coming from a background where what the motorcyclists did is 100% illegal, I have to agree with the quoted sentence.
I don't think it's putting blame on the rider, not in it of itself, but it IS a true statement.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:13:31 AM by Watcher »
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Offline qcbaker

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 12:28:27 PM »
Many people see motorcyclists as a bunch of hooligans, and those who skirt the law and have the mentality that it's ok to run from cops only further this negative stigma.

Texas is an exception, not a rule, when it comes to their policy of passing on a double yellow.  Neither Illinois nor Arizona have any similar law on the book, and I've never heard anything similar about Indiana either.  Despite not living in IN, I would drive/ride there frequently enough that I read their rules of the road book (mostly for school-bus laws and such).


It is not ok what the driver did, there is no justification for his actions, and I would hold to this statement regardless of the legality of what the motorcyclists did.  I made this statement before I even knew that fact about Texas.
However, coming from a background where what the motorcyclists did is 100% illegal, I have to agree with the quoted sentence.
I don't think it's putting blame on the rider, not in it of itself, but it IS a true statement.

I don't think the rider's actions in this video, even if they had occurred in a place where they would be considered illegal, qualify as a reason to hate motorcyclists. The driver was obstructing traffic for seemingly no reason. He was going 35 in a 60 with nothing in front of him preventing him form traveling at or above the minimum speed for the road. That seems fishy to me, so in that situation, seems perfectly reasonable to attempt to pass in order to try and get away from someone who might (intentionally, in this case it seems) end up hurting you.

Presented with the same situation, I would've thought that the driver either has no business being on the road (may be drunk or otherwise impaired), which is unsafe for me, or he is intentionally obstructing me for some reason, which is even more unsafe for me. The only escape route I see on that road would be (since the opposing lane was clear) to pass the slow car and put as much space between us as possible.

Offline ShowBizWolf

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 12:33:55 PM »
Cool I got replies!!

That is really interesting about being allowed to pass on double yellow there. I still can't say I ever would. Tbh I'm probably one of the most cautious and non-risk-taking riders/drivers out there... I don't even pass on those solid stripe + dotted stripe passing zones.

And what I meant was, is that none of that would have happened had the biker been patient and just went along for the ride instead of passing two people as he attempted to do. Lots of people I'm sure don't realize (like me) that it's actually legal where he was to pass on a double yellow... and that's what I meant when I said, "this kind of thing is a reason why people hate bikers."

NO the driver of the Mercury should have not retaliated the way he did. Not at all. He should have just taken a deep breath and calmed down in his head as well. What he did was awful and he most certainly (as others have said) could have caused two deaths (or more) that day.

Serious question: am I the only one (out of anyone who reads this cuz I can't really ask the world lol!) who slows down and gives plenty of space and patience when I come up on someone riding/driving slower than I think is necessary? And if I get tailgated or whatever myself then I just pull over off the road and let people go safely ahead of me. I honestly don't really ever pass anyone unless it's on the highway and there's a passing lane or lanes and I can do it without going crazy. :dunno_black: I guess all my friends that say I'm an 80 year old woman trapped in a 30 year old's body are being truthful LOL :laugh:

Edit cuz of qc's reply: I totally agree that someone going slow makes me wonder. I too want to get away from anyone driving strangely on the road. But instead of speeding up to get near them, pass them, and try to get ahead/away from them, I use my "slow down and give them space" tactic... because I'd rather them be waaaaaay ahead of me and away from me than me getting closer to them and (in this example) potentially provoke them into doing something harmful or crazy.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 12:39:31 PM by ShowBizWolf »
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Offline pliskin

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 01:43:30 PM »
Serious question: am I the only one (out of anyone who reads this cuz I can't really ask the world lol!) who slows down and gives plenty of space and patience when I come up on someone riding/driving slower than I think is necessary? And if I get tailgated or whatever myself then I just pull over off the road and let people go safely ahead of me. I honestly don't really ever pass anyone unless it's on the highway and there's a passing lane or lanes and I can do it without going crazy. :dunno_black: I guess all my friends that say I'm an 80 year old woman trapped in a 30 year old's body are being truthful LOL :laugh:

When I ride I give the person in front of me plenty of space so I have time to react. On the other hand I will admit that my inner monster sometimes takes control and I pass under less than optimal conditions. Not so much on my GS because lack of power. But on my VFR.......passing, it's just to easy. I do the same when driving my car.
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Offline Watcher

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 01:54:46 PM »
The driver was obstructing traffic for seemingly no reason. He was going 35 in a 60 with nothing in front of him preventing him form traveling at or above the minimum speed for the road.

But this is a huge inference.  In the video there isn't a clear view of his speedometer, nor does he pass a posted speed limit.  We only know these facts from secondary data.  Same with the very fact it is in Texas.
Given the video in it of itself it looks like riders being hooligans, and it's judged as such by the public.  And like it or not, that IS what drivers think.
It's not until the facts are on the table that we can step back and say "I guess they were well within their rights," but how many people who watch the video will take the time to learn about the incident?  10%?


@ShowBiz

It's situational.  I ride pretty rational, and I will keep a larger space margin around drivers acting oddly, but I will not hesitate to pass when given an opportunity.
And by opportunity I mean where legal, and when appropriate.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:56:14 PM by Watcher »
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Offline qcbaker

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Re: Video... article... looking to discuss
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 03:55:28 PM »
But this is a huge inference.  In the video there isn't a clear view of his speedometer, nor does he pass a posted speed limit.  We only know these facts from secondary data.  Same with the very fact it is in Texas.

I guess I am technically trusting the rider's words here regarding the speed and the dismissal of the ticket for crossing the double yellow, since that's the only source of info I have besides the video itself. As for it being in Texas, that's where all the news reports I've seen on it have been from so I'm fairly sure that's accurate.

Quote
Given the video in it of itself it looks like riders being hooligans, and it's judged as such by the public.  And like it or not, that IS what drivers think.
It's not until the facts are on the table that we can step back and say "I guess they were well within their rights," but how many people who watch the video will take the time to learn about the incident?  10%?

I didn't think the video made them look like hooligans... All it shows it the camera rider riding alone for a bit, then pulling up and following the lead rider for a bit (presumably waiting to see if the traffic in front of them was going to speed up, but this admittedly is conjecture), and then you see the lead rider attempt to pass the SUV ahead of him and the white Cougar that hit him. It didn't even look like they were speeding prior to being held up by the slower traffic. I guess one can argue that the act of passing on the double yellow makes them look like hooligans, but I don't think that passing on the double yellow immediately identifies you as a squid. If they had been flying by normal traffic or ripping wheelies and stuff, then yeah I would agree, but they were basically just riding normally until attempting the pass.

Cool I got replies!!

That is really interesting about being allowed to pass on double yellow there. I still can't say I ever would. Tbh I'm probably one of the most cautious and non-risk-taking riders/drivers out there... I don't even pass on those solid stripe + dotted stripe passing zones.

Seems a bit overly cautious to not ever pass even when it is legal to lol. But I guess I understand. Entering the opposing lane is something you generally want to avoid lol.

Quote
And what I meant was, is that none of that would have happened had the biker been patient and just went along for the ride instead of passing two people as he attempted to do. Lots of people I'm sure don't realize (like me) that it's actually legal where he was to pass on a double yellow... and that's what I meant when I said, "this kind of thing is a reason why people hate bikers."

Ehh, like I said before, even if the pass were technically illegal, I don't think it qualifies as a reason to not like bikers. Being patient and just putting along at 35 in a 60 zone can be unsafe, since cars approaching at normal speed from behind won't see brake lights and may not slow down and that means you are much more likely to be rear-ended. So, passing the slower traffic while it's clear in the opposing lane seems like the safer move.

Quote
Serious question: am I the only one (out of anyone who reads this cuz I can't really ask the world lol!) who slows down and gives plenty of space and patience when I come up on someone riding/driving slower than I think is necessary? And if I get tailgated or whatever myself then I just pull over off the road and let people go safely ahead of me. I honestly don't really ever pass anyone unless it's on the highway and there's a passing lane or lanes and I can do it without going crazy. :dunno_black: I guess all my friends that say I'm an 80 year old woman trapped in a 30 year old's body are being truthful LOL :laugh:

My initial reaction would be to slow down as well (and not tailgate, obviously), and try and ascertain why they have slowed. Maybe they've seen something ahead that I haven't, or perhaps there is some adverse road condition I can't see because of them being in front of me. But, if I've followed them for a minute or two and can't see any real reason for them to be going that slow, I would probably try to pass for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't like not having an escape route, and I feel like having a weird driver in front of me would impede my ability to properly react to the situation.

Quote
Edit cuz of qc's reply: I totally agree that someone going slow makes me wonder. I too want to get away from anyone driving strangely on the road. But instead of speeding up to get near them, pass them, and try to get ahead/away from them, I use my "slow down and give them space" tactic... because I'd rather them be waaaaaay ahead of me and away from me than me getting closer to them and (in this example) potentially provoke them into doing something harmful or crazy.

I get where you're coming from and I see your point. But, slowing down and allowing a driver to dictate your pace (and possibly prevent you from escaping) doesn't sit well with me. I'd much rather pass them, downshift and be gone. And if I get pulled over, I can at least have a valid excuse for why I was speeding.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 11:12:35 AM by qcbaker »