Author Topic: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??  (Read 350 times)

Offline Mauve

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Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« on: September 09, 2018, 12:37:26 AM »
first let me start out: i was never unsafe. AT ALL.


here's what happened: I arrived today for day 2 of my 3 day MST class. you know, to get a license to operate one of these f%$king things, legally. Had everything that was asked for, a helmet, long sleeves, long pants, boots, gloves. I get my bike, which was a Honda Rebel, and it's a piece of absolute shaZam!. Par for the course I guess, seeing as it's a free class.

anyone ever ridden a honda rebel before? I hadn't...until today. Nice bike i guess, if you want a dumb looking cruiser bike. They say they're good to learn on......and I would totally agree....if i got to learn on it.

Instead.............

for anyone who hasn't taken one fo these courses before, it's rather simple. You get a bike, they show you excercises and manuevors, you learn them, and then you take a test on them. Except for this class I guess. Make 2 mistakes, you're done. And they don't even have to be disasters either. Simply go to slow, or miss a cone, and that's it.

and that's what happened to me. You see, on excercise 3, you have to go through the middle, pause, go, and loop around and do some swerves. Instead of using actual cones, or even small szed "dunce cap" cones, they use these flat squares that you can barely see on the ground until you're right over them. On the first attempt, I didn't get it correctly. but by the end, and seeing as none of the instructors told me I did anything wrong (i weaved correctly every other time except the firs) I felt since it was a beginners class it should be ok. right?

WRONG.

so that's strike one.......

strike 2? I take a turn on the 6th excerise too wide..... I dont drop the bike, never lose control, just went a few feet outside of the cone.

thats right!

So......after a break, im called over and told that I'm a danger to myself, and others and that I need to leave. I was told that you're expected to do the exercises correctly the first time, and thats it.


So I left......and went home and fired off an email to the school's admin (it's done through the state anda  local Community College) about my ordeal.


so all in all.....the state of illinois MST run out of Harper College is some bullshit. Labled a beginners class, but you get booted for making beginners mistakes.


Oh, and one girl got booted for.....DROPPING HER BIKE....while standing.............





guess ima ride it illegal for a few days and go take the test at the DMV...and then probably ride back to that school and rub it in the ladies face that I didn't need her f%$king saftey class.





Offline yamahonkawazuki

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2018, 03:30:52 AM »
Weord i dodnt have these issues in the tm class at pellissippi st in 03. But i guess each is different. Some rum by sgt Schultz aka mine or some by hitler himself. Yours?
Aaron
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Offline Kilted1

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2018, 04:40:18 AM »
Well at least the class didn't cost you anything other than some time and frustration.  I'd be willing to bet you still learned some and got some additional experience.  I had to pay over $100 for my one-day class (after 30 years of off and on motorcycling) and learned some useful things that have become part of my daily habit.

Since it's a free class, maybe they're hard-asses figuring you'll come back in a month or three with a different mindset and likely some more experience.  It does sound like they were unnecessarily harsh though.  Could be that it was just your particular instructor having a bad day.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2018, 09:12:27 AM »
I personally know some of the IL based MSF instructors, where did you take it and who were your coaches?

Now I have heard that the program has become more stringent.  Maybe the state is tired of the amount of motorcycle fatalities and mandated a higher failure rate.  I've also heard from my friends on the "inside" that they're now being even stricter on the coaches themselves.
Out here in AZ we're more relaxed with the program.  I think that's because it's not state funded, and demand isn't nearly as high, so we have incentive to give our students ample opportunities to get it right before we make the expulsion so we can actually get paid, get a good review, then get increased exposure and then increase business as a result...
That being said a hazard is a hazard and I've had to expell students for what some would tell you was "no big deal".


So it may be that, simply, they saw mistakes from you that you didn't perceive, or your opinion of the mistakes you made didn't seem as dangerous as they were.  I've personally seen novice riders straight up cut other riders off or cross the path of travel in an incredibly dangerous way, then when we stop them they have no idea what they did wrong.  Ignorance like that isn't tolerable, so we have a "2 strikes you're out" policy in regards to path of travel violations.

That all being said, the only reason why you would have been kicked out on Ex6 is failure to follow instructions.  If you run wide or take the turn too sharp that's all just part of the learning experience.  But if you were told multiple times to speed up, or multiple times that "XYZ" is the path of travel, yet you still keep missing the cones or you aren't giving the coaches what they are asking for, they are 100% justified in expelling you.

I wasn't there so I'm trying to be objective here, and not all coaches are equal, but I was trained in the same program that your coach was (potentially by the same head instructor) so I'm inclined to back their decision.

And just for the record, the reason they use those "flat squares" for cones is so that when a student runs the cone over (and they often do) it won't cause them to crash like a "dunce cap" cone will.  They're also a little more "out of sight out of mind" in the sense that they won't cause major target fixation issues.
Sometimes I have students who have difficulty seeing them, 99% of the time they get the path of travel after the first time through.  If the riding demo wasn't clear enough often watching other students is enough to get the gyst of the exercise.  If they still don't get it, then I guess motorcycle riding isn't for them.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 09:24:01 AM by Watcher »
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Offline Mauve

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2018, 02:26:24 PM »
well, first of all, thanks for the reply, even though you're not going to like my resoponse:




I don't really think you're being objective........but you did answer a question I was wondering about but hadn't asked yet. Does this have something to do with payment?

I guess it does huh. So, rather than help people ride motorcycles, the instructors are just focused on passing the ones who they know they can work with quickly, just so they can pass enough people to get a good review? I can't even type enough "ha"s to even begin to express my laughter at this.

Here's my problem with this whole excercise in futility: we're there to elarn how to ride motorcycles. Chances are, we're going to ride them anyway.......so maybe think about that before just throwing people out for BEGINNERS mistakes. and there was no time when anyone said before hand "if you make these mistakes you're done" in fact the only thing we were told that would get us expelled from the class was to not have the proper gear, or to operate the bike when the instructor has told you not to. I followed all of those rules.

Took a turn too wide on the first pass, in an exercise  I saw done one time. you've got to be F'in kidding me.

remember....this was BEGINNERS INTRODUCTION TO RIDING MOTORCYCLES. NOT THE ADVANCED CLASS THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS YOU NEED TO HAVE EXPERIENCE ON A BIKE.



or maybe the MST needs to change what they call the class and give people fair warning. This is why people DON'T TAKE CLASSES and learn on their own (which is what i'm probably going to do, and then rent a honda rebel for my test. we can do that in illinois)


all in all....your canned response was just the same as the second instructor i talked to. And asking me the instructors name? LOL yeah right. I'm not even going to tell you where I was at. So have a good day.

Offline Mauve

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2018, 02:42:21 PM »
also, is it really the policy of the MST to kick people out for dropping the bike? Bc one girl got 86'd for just doing that. dropping the bike when we were first getting on them.

Point is, this entire thing is bogus, and the teachers job should never be to humiliate students, which is what this one did.


You can go ahead and defend them all you want, but remember: THIS CLASS AND ALL OTHERS LIKE IT ARE NOT REQUIRED FOR A MOTORCYCLE LICENSE IN ILLINOIS.

so, it seems to say, that since it's not required, why would anyone want to come back? I'm either going to find a new class at a diffrent school or just ride with my permit (which I have....) for a bit longer until I can take the test at the DMV, like a regular joe.


suffice to say, i'd probably never tell a single person to take an MST class in Illinois. not after this experience. And that's TOTALLY what they want right? To have no one take their classes?


and she said it was free.....it wasn't. It cost $20 and I have to ASK for it back, meaning it's free if I ask for a refund. Plus my time it took to drive an hour to the class, and the 4 hours on the frist day, and lets see, 6 of 8 hours on the second day. LOL never again. sorry.

Offline Mauve

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2018, 02:51:29 PM »
oh and I wasn't informed of any of these mistakes until HOURS after.........I was told once, to go faster, and I did, from there on out. But how fast does 1st gear go on a honda rebel in a parkinglot. they even accused me of lying about what gear i was in, bc according to them "2nd will do 10mph" which is complete lie. They got you on these honda rebels, with no mirrors, and the bikes are garbage. Choke all the way on bc they don't warm up or even stay warm. JFC there were so many bogus things going on here. Also, we were in the lot they abanonded last year bc they were given a new range across the campus but due to a car show our class had to go to the old lot. Can't see the markings, can't see anything. Go ahead and defend this all you want, but anyone who isn't an MST instructor is going to hopefully see through it.

and i'd like to hear your defense of the teacher telling me I was unsafe to others and myself when I didn't do so much as drop the bike or skid or wheelie or lose control of the bike. Making a wide turn, is not losing control of the bike and should be expected in a BRC.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 02:53:06 PM by Mauve »

Offline Mauve

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2018, 02:55:48 PM »
Well at least the class didn't cost you anything other than some time and frustration.  I'd be willing to bet you still learned some and got some additional experience.  I had to pay over $100 for my one-day class (after 30 years of off and on motorcycling) and learned some useful things that have become part of my daily habit.

Since it's a free class, maybe they're hard-asses figuring you'll come back in a month or three with a different mindset and likely some more experience.  It does sound like they were unnecessarily harsh though.  Could be that it was just your particular instructor having a bad day.


its not free unless you ask for your money back. Ya i learned a few things mostly stuff I didn't know like the P on my bike is for when you're parked and want your taillight on so people can see you and that my motojacket is supposed to fit the way it does bc it's made for you to be in a riding position. that's about it. everything else I knew, and TBH, the explinaton of Counter Steering was wrong.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2018, 10:03:49 PM »
I'm at work right now so I can't formulate a full response but a couple of things.

It's MSF, not MST.

You completely misunderstood what I was trying to explain about state funded vs for profit.  It's the opposite of what you think.
The IL program the coaches get paid what they get paid regardless of student turnout or pass rate, so they can afford to be picky.
My program is for profit, and it's in my best interest to hold onto a questionable rider a little longer than expected in order to get a potential passing student.

The class in IL is FREE, regardless if you wantol to actually take the steps necessary or not it's still free.  If you request your $20 back you WILL get it back, or you could have just showed up early at the range and got added in as a "walk on" with no money down.
Too lazy to get your $20 back?  Its considered a donation.


Out of curiosity, how was counter steering explained to you?
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Offline Mauve

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2018, 11:34:10 PM »
LOL so do you just not even search the internet before correcting people?

it's MST. sorry holmes.

secondly, I tossed that f'in booklet into a grill and set it on fire because my experience was amazing. But the countersteering definition in it was wrong.

thirdly........


Offline Watcher

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2018, 01:40:02 AM »
Lol, wow.  Now I'm starting to get a clearer picture.  If your attitude here is anything like how you are in person I'm starting to see why a coach might have dropped you so quickly.


The "Motorcycle Safety Training" page on Harper's website is just that, a page.
The curriculum and program you were attending was researched, compiled, distributed, and backed by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.
The coaches are MSF coaches.  The program is an MSF program.  The completion cards come from the MSF with the MSF logo on them.
https://www.msf-usa.org

If you Google search "MSF Motorcycle" you get that link.  If you Google search "MST Motorcycle" you get links to Motus...

Also, just to push the point home, I am an MSF certified RiderCoach who was trained by AND employed by Harper College in Illinos, who now lives in Arizona and works as the assistant head-coach at a for-profit MSF certified training company which proudly has as close as makes no difference a 5/5 star rating.

I've been riding for about 10 years now, I've been teaching for about 3, i stopped owning cars to dedicate myself to riding, so you can bet your ass I know what the hell I'm talking about here.


I'll bet you "running wide" on Ex6 wasn't just missing the cones by a few feet, I'm betting you went clear across the range and almost hit the boundary.
To a certain extent, running wide IS losing control.  If you can't make a turn tight enough, you can't control the bike, plain and simple.  By Ex6 you've already learned to counter steer, Ex6 is essentially the "prove you understand it" exercise.

I'm starting to see the issue here, though.  You were dropped on Ex6, Ex6 deals with counter-steering, you claim the instruction is flat out wrong about counter-steering.  I'm thinking you couldn't figure out how to steer properly and the coaches saw this and stopped you here.  That control function is critical for later exercises.

I can gaurantee you 100% for a fact that the definition of countersteering in the MSF book you were given is correct.  I implore you to debate me on it, maybe you'll learn something here that your coaches couldn't teach you.

Better yet, tell me your definition of counter steering so we can see if you know better than the MSF.
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Offline qcbaker

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2018, 12:53:43 PM »
Sorry you had a bad experience Mauve and I'm extra sorry if you came here looking for validation that you getting kicked out was BS or something like that, because judging by your posts, I think the decision to ask you to leave might have been the right one. Obviously, I wasn't at your class so I can't know anyone's account of the events except your own, but if the instructors kicked you out because they saw you as a danger to yourself and the others there, maybe instead of getting mad about it and implying that you (a novice rider who, prior to the class, did not even know why motorcycle jackets have a pre-curved fit) know better than the instructors, you should try and understand what you did wrong and how you can improve.

The reality of the situation is this: you don't know as much about riding as you think you do. Watcher is a very experienced rider and instructor and you should listen to him. Take yourself down a peg, start from a beginner's mind, and try to learn something.

Offline mr72

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2018, 02:27:23 PM »
The reality of the situation is this: you don't know as much about riding as you think you do. .... Take yourself down a peg, start from a beginner's mind, and try to learn something.

+1

Can't wait until the OP has a carb problem with a GS500, or has a wreck and insists it's the other driver's fault when it was clearly rider error, or discovers a decades old lack of maintenance causing some mechanical problem and then tells us about how Suzuki engineers are idiots.

:icon_rolleyes:

Offline cbrfxr67

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2018, 03:01:25 PM »
Admittedly, I didn't read everything.  I do have great respect for Watcher's knowledge and expertise as he imparted some guidance to me that helped me pass my test.

Aside from that, you definitely wouldn't have gotten booted at my msf class.  Some dude dumped his rebel but the teacher was nothing but encouraging.  I'd say most of my class was outside the lines or running over those little pucks.  I myself, in the follow the leader, round and round couldn't stand it and passed some guy who was putting along.  Teacher stopped the class and warned everyone (me) about being sent home, but resumed and we all passed.

Sorry you had a crappy class experience
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Offline Mauve

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2018, 03:10:18 PM »
The reality of the situation is this: you don't know as much about riding as you think you do. .... Take yourself down a peg, start from a beginner's mind, and try to learn something.

+1

Can't wait until the OP has a carb problem with a GS500, or has a wreck and insists it's the other driver's fault when it was clearly rider error, or discovers a decades old lack of maintenance causing some mechanical problem and then tells us about how Suzuki engineers are idiots.

:icon_rolleyes:



oh ya. i forgot. i came to an internet message board. No i was very polite when I was talking to the instructor. I'm not polite here, bc this is the internet.

oh and as for the carb problem I HAD on my bike, I was able to fix it thanks to this website.

LOL at saying I went clear across the range. I did not.

And why was someone asked to leave for just dropping the bike while they were stopped? GMAFB.

the reality is, none of you know me...at all. One of you tried to get to know me, by asking me what instructor I had and where I was at. As if i'm _THAT_ stupid.


this aint my first message board, this aint my first rodeo. My demeanor on here is 100% opposite of my demeanor in real life. That's the fun of this.


I didn't come here looking for validation, I came here to make a post, about my experience at the MST class I took, in Illinois. So that way, when people go and search about past experiences, they will find this post, and read it, and maybe think about wether they want to go to a beginners class that isn't for beginners. It's also not even required. I'd go as far to say, that i'd have rather given money to Ride Chicago, which is not run by the state of Illinois, because I've heard nothing but good things about it. I'd certainly never tell anyone to just take the class I took. I'll do whatever I can to negatively SEO that training course. it's really easy and simple. there's plenty of places to post my story.


you can be trained to teach people whatever. but you need to be trained to actually TEACH. my instructor wasn't trained to TEACH,they were trained to just read a booklet.

In fact, speaking of that, no one seemed to know much without reading the booklet. Both instructors had 20+ years combined experience, but still, used the book the entire time.


Maybe there's a good reason why these classes aren't required........and maybe there's a good reason why people choose to pay for Ride Chicago, and not MST (or F or whatever the heck you wanna call it. I call it crap.)



and i was wondering why this site was a ghost town. I don't have to wonder anymore.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 03:15:49 PM by Mauve »

Offline qcbaker

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2018, 03:28:58 PM »
oh ya. i forgot. i came to an internet message board. No i was very polite when I was talking to the instructor. I'm not polite here, bc this is the internet.

:icon_rolleyes:

Quote
LOL at saying I went clear across the range. I did not.

Obviously, I wasn't there so I can't really say otherwise. But something about the way you were riding came off as dangerous. Think about what that might have been and try to correct it. PROTIP: the answer is not "the instructor is just a jerk".

Quote
And why was someone asked to leave for just dropping the bike while they were stopped? GMAFB.

If someone is not able to hold up a small bike like a Honda Rebel while stopped, maybe they lack the basic skills required to safely operate a motorcycle. Were you intently watching that person the whole time and know for sure that it was just a simple mistake? Doubt it. The instructors are trained to recognize when a situation presents a danger to the students. You are not.

Quote
the reality is, none of you know me...at all. One of you tried to get to know me, by asking me what instructor I had and where I was at. As if i'm _THAT_ stupid.

Watcher asked you that because your course was at the same place he used to teach. Kinda reasonable question to ask, IMO.

Quote
this aint my first message board, this aint my first rodeo. My demeanor on here is 100% opposite of my demeanor in real life. That's the fun of this.

That's a really immature attitude and I hope you reevaluate it at some point. I'm not gonna reply directly to the rest of your post, because that's basically my reaction to everything else you've said.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2018, 04:13:06 PM »
One of you tried to get to know me, by asking me what instructor I had and where I was at. As if i'm _THAT_ stupid.

We already know you're from Illinois, we more specifically know you're from Chicago, you told us this yourself, and not only in this thread!  You told us in the meet and greet subforum, and part of that is to connect with people from your area, so if you're so seclusive why even post there to begin with?

I didn't ask you where you are specifically, I'm not asking you where you live, and asking you what location you took the class at realistically tells me nothing about where you've come from.  I've had students who've literally driven over an hour to get to the range, that could be an hour in any direction.

Me asking you "where did you take it and who were your coaches" is simply an effort to get to know your situation.
If you would have said "Oh, I took it at Bridgeview Courthouse and I had RiderCoach 'Mark Daniels'"   I'd have said "Ok, the Courthouse range is one of the older ranges in IL, so I see where you're coming from with not being able to see, but 'MD' is a close friend of mine and I trust him completely so if HE dropped you he had a valid reason."

Or more specifically I might have offered that "Oh, you took it at XYZ?  It's not much farther of a trip to get to Orland Park, my good friend 'MD' coaches there, he's a good guy, you'll have a much better experience."

Too late now, though.  I'm not subjecting my friends to this kind of frustration wittingly.
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Offline Kilted1

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 04:48:49 PM »

oh ya. i forgot. i came to an internet message board. No i was very polite when I was talking to the instructor. I'm not polite here, bc this is the internet.

the reality is, none of you know me...at all.

this aint my first message board, this aint my first rodeo. My demeanor on here is 100% opposite of my demeanor in real life. That's the fun of this.



So you're super nice in person but a complete duck on the internet.  Because you can. 

And super quick to take offense when someone calls you on it or disagrees.  Because you can, I guess.

Maybe that child's helmet isn't so inappropriate after all.

Offline mr72

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2018, 04:53:50 PM »
Maybe that child's helmet isn't so inappropriate after all.

Comment of the week right there.

Offline Watcher

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Re: Kicked out of MST class for being "unsafe"??
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2018, 10:01:38 PM »
Maybe that child's helmet isn't so inappropriate after all.

Comment of the week right there.

 :cheers:
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