News:

Need a manual?  Buy a Clymer manual Here

Main Menu

GS500 DYNO SHEETS!!!

Started by starshooter10, January 06, 2009, 11:55:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ineedanap

Quote from: black and silver twin on April 13, 2009, 09:04:52 PM
STOCK really does keep me up at night. Seriously. 



At least I'm not the only one. 
My 90 GS500E has spread itself across the nation.

black and silver twin

Quote from: trx440r on April 12, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them?  Just curious.

.

My guesses are based on the many dynos Ive studied with various mods. V&H, lunchbox, correct jetting, and proper maintenance on a healthy engine should give about 45-50whp or 60-70hp at the engine. more would require over bore, porting, cams, larger carbs, boost, or nitrous.
07 black GS500F; fenderectomy, NGK DPR9EIX-9 plugs, 15T sprocket, Jardine exhaust, K&N lunchbox, 20-62.5-152.5 jets 1 washer, timing advance 6*, flushmount signals,Tommaselli clipons over tree, sv650 throttle, 20w forkoil, sport demon tires, Buddha fork brace, Goodridge SS lines, double bubble

ohgood

Quote from: black and silver twin on April 13, 2009, 09:59:14 PM
Quote from: trx440r on April 12, 2009, 07:34:53 PM
What's the most you can get out of a GS when you throw some money at them?  Just curious.

.

My guesses are based on the many dynos Ive studied with various mods. V&H, lunchbox, correct jetting, and proper maintenance on a healthy engine should give about 45-50whp or 60-70hp at the engine. more would require over bore, porting, cams, larger carbs, boost, or nitrous.

it would be a whole lot easier to craigslist the gs, and buy a second hand gsx-r. not to mention the tons of upgrades you'd be getting for (almost) free in the process.

quite a few people have commented about the gs's handling being what they miss when they upgrade to faster bikes. our landlord commented something similar a few weeks ago. he had a V-max after his gs, and loved the power, but hated the handling. said the gs was the most fun he ever had on two wheels.

:)


tt_four: "and believe me, BMW motorcycles are 50% metal, rubber and plastic, and 50% useless

black and silver twin



it would be a whole lot easier to craigslist the gs, and buy a second hand gsx-r. not to mention the tons of upgrades you'd be getting for (almost) free in the process.

quite a few people have commented about the gs's handling being what they miss when they upgrade to faster bikes. our landlord commented something similar a few weeks ago. he had a V-max after his gs, and loved the power, but hated the handling. said the gs was the most fun he ever had on two wheels.

:)
[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree but I dont want to die at 200+, thats why I keep the gs. I modify the gs mostly for fun but also because
Quote from: black and silver twin on April 13, 2009, 09:04:52 PM
STOCK really does keep me up at night. Seriously. 




07 black GS500F; fenderectomy, NGK DPR9EIX-9 plugs, 15T sprocket, Jardine exhaust, K&N lunchbox, 20-62.5-152.5 jets 1 washer, timing advance 6*, flushmount signals,Tommaselli clipons over tree, sv650 throttle, 20w forkoil, sport demon tires, Buddha fork brace, Goodridge SS lines, double bubble

trx440r

Don't get me wrong.  I don't want a 60hp GS.  I want it as close to stock as possible.  I want something that gives me great mpg's and is reliable.  I was just curious what the limits were if you wanted to push the platform.

.

intergalactic

so what is the restriction for power on a GS? Exhaust? Intake?  Is it inside the head?
1992 GS500E- 40/125 jets, '08 petcock
Aerostich roadcrafter/Sidi Vortice Air/Shoei X-11/Cortech Scarab gloves
SS front line (thanks ineedanap!)
metisse sliders (thanks grayghost) still working on the front motor mount
1992 GSXR600 shock .95kg/mm fronts springs, 20W oil
Yama JN6-F4560-00 filte

Chanse

From what Ive read on here its the flow of the head, only two valves, and the exhaust side is weak also, and the headers come out a a 90' angle interrupts the flow.
Current project:
Mmotos full body kit (YOU DONT WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM... READ MY THREAD BOOT STATE UPDATE)
K&N Lunchbox
Buddah's jets
CBR F2 rearsets
Ducati pass pegs (Modified)
Kat rear wheel
Carbon Fiber Exhaust Can, possibly shortened and relocated
And so on......

black and silver twin

#27
I just installed my V&H full exhaust, K&N lunch box, 20-62.5-147.5 jets, and +2* custom ignition advance.  :cheers: it definitely feels way more responsive and slightly more powerful (less than I expected :dunno_black: but faster none-the-less). but the truth will be told this saturday when I hit up the dyno again! :woohoo: I kinda think its running a tad rich, which is fine, the dyno will tell me the AFR. just to rehash; my stock dyno was 39whp with a 13:1 AFR. I initialy advanced the ignition 6* and the bike lost a TON of power, so I took it back to +1* and it was better than stock so i then put it at +2* and left it because i couldnt tell any difference between 1 and 2 *. BUT I was getting a slight amount of spark knock but that is cured using 89 octane (midgrade). I am going to toggle the timing a bit at the dyno to get the most power and will report back with the results. by the way I am using the same dyno at the same shop operated by the same guy to eliminate as much variation as possible. I can't wait!!!

P.S. a couple days before the install i put on a 15t front sprocket and I will say it made at least as much of an acceleration difference as all the above mods COMBINED

P.P.S. I forgot to mention the V&H is Crazy loud :police:(think NHRA dragster) using more than 1/2 throttle, below that its relatively civilized. I freekin LOVE the sound! :icon_twisted:
07 black GS500F; fenderectomy, NGK DPR9EIX-9 plugs, 15T sprocket, Jardine exhaust, K&N lunchbox, 20-62.5-152.5 jets 1 washer, timing advance 6*, flushmount signals,Tommaselli clipons over tree, sv650 throttle, 20w forkoil, sport demon tires, Buddha fork brace, Goodridge SS lines, double bubble

ecpreston

nice to see someone taking the time to do this right and check the AFR before and after and all, I'm interested to see your results  :thumb:

intergalactic

Spark advance is perceived to be good, but is undesirable.

What is desired is a fuel with high knock resistance and that burns fast to get peak pressure when teh piston is at top dead center. And no pressure before that. But fuel takes time to burn, so the spark is triggered before the piston reaches top dead center. So the last bit of upward piston travel is not just compressing air and fuel, a now slightly burning air-fuel mix.

It seems modern lower "octane" (octane equivalence rating or anti-knock index) fuel burn a bit faster than ones with higher "octane" (octane is an actual chemical). So you will often make more power on a stock bike with 87 than with 93.

If your bike has the knock margin, you might make more high end power with slightly retarded timing and fast burning fuel. Like 87. I know you will make more power with 10% tolulene and retarded timing.  It burns quickly and also raises the octane equivalence number/ antiknock index.

I have dyno runs with 7% more power (on a car) at 10% tolulene. But it is allegedly quite nasty stuff.

Quote from: black and silver twin on June 23, 2009, 10:32:09 PM
I just installed my V&H full exhaust, K&N lunch box, 20-62.5-147.5 jets, and +2* custom ignition advance.  :cheers: it definitely feels way more responsive and slightly more powerful (less than I expected :dunno_black: but faster none-the-less). but the truth will be told this saturday when I hit up the dyno again! :woohoo: I kinda think its running a tad rich, which is fine, the dyno will tell me the AFR. just to rehash; my stock dyno was 39whp with a 13:1 AFR. I initialy advanced the ignition 6* and the bike lost a TON of power, so I took it back to +1* and it was better than stock so i then put it at +2* and left it because i couldnt tell any difference between 1 and 2 *. BUT I was getting a slight amount of spark knock but that is cured using 89 octane (midgrade). I am going to toggle the timing a bit at the dyno to get the most power and will report back with the results. by the way I am using the same dyno at the same shop operated by the same guy to eliminate as much variation as possible. I can't wait!!!

P.S. a couple days before the install i put on a 15t front sprocket and I will say it made at least as much of an acceleration difference as all the above mods COMBINED

P.P.S. I forgot to mention the V&H is Crazy loud :police:(think NHRA dragster) using more than 1/2 throttle, below that its relatively civilized. I freekin LOVE the sound! :icon_twisted:
1992 GS500E- 40/125 jets, '08 petcock
Aerostich roadcrafter/Sidi Vortice Air/Shoei X-11/Cortech Scarab gloves
SS front line (thanks ineedanap!)
metisse sliders (thanks grayghost) still working on the front motor mount
1992 GSXR600 shock .95kg/mm fronts springs, 20W oil
Yama JN6-F4560-00 filte

sledge

Dont forget about the rear tyre  :nono:

black and silver twin

Quote from: black and silver twin on June 23, 2009, 10:32:09 PM
I just installed my V&H full exhaust, K&N lunch box, 20-62.5-147.5 jets, and +2* custom ignition advance.  :cheers: it definitely feels way more responsive and slightly more powerful (less than I expected :dunno_black: but faster none-the-less). but the truth will be told this saturday when I hit up the dyno again! :woohoo: I kinda think its running a tad rich, which is fine, the dyno will tell me the AFR. just to rehash; my stock dyno was 39whp with a 13:1 AFR. I initialy advanced the ignition 6* and the bike lost a TON of power, so I took it back to +1* and it was better than stock so i then put it at +2* and left it because i couldnt tell any difference between 1 and 2 *. BUT I was getting a slight amount of spark knock but that is cured using 89 octane (midgrade). I am going to toggle the timing a bit at the dyno to get the most power and will report back with the results. by the way I am using the same dyno at the same shop operated by the same guy to eliminate as much variation as possible. I can't wait!!!

P.S. a couple days before the install i put on a 15t front sprocket and I will say it made at least as much of an acceleration difference as all the above mods COMBINED

P.P.S. I forgot to mention the V&H is Crazy loud :police:(think NHRA dragster) using more than 1/2 throttle, below that its relatively civilized. I freekin LOVE the sound! :icon_twisted:

o.k. so im back from the dyno and am reporting back just as promised  :thumb: I went in to the dyno with the above stuff expecting to be really close on AFR and just dial in the timing. but things went the other way. the first pull was 41whp with a 15:1 afr! It was so lean i imediately went and bought more jets before i did any more pulls. I went up to a 152.5 main and put 1 washer under the needles for a total of 1 washer per carb. the next run was better around13:1 afr so i put in the biggest jets i had, 155s. this brought it down to 12.5 - 13:1, not perfect but close for an N/A tune. with 20 pilots, 62.5 mids, 155 mains, 1 washer, and 4 turns out of the idle mix screw she made a whopping 42 whp and 25lb-ft :icon_rolleyes:  next i played with the timing which took 5 runs. the GS loves timing as i ended up with +6* and was still gaining power! i just ran out of adjustment!  with all this done i made 44whp and 27lb/ft. all of the above tuning was done with mid-grade gas because I didnt want to hurt anything advancing the timing. all-in-all it took 10 runs on the dyno; 3 rejets,  5 timing adjustments, 1 base line, and 1 finishing run but my little GS was never fazed. there were only two surprises: 1 there is a very rich spot at 4400 rpm where it goes down to 11:1 afr then back up immediately after, this happened on every run except for when i dynoed it stock a few months ago  :dunno_black: 2 the power peak stock was 9300 rpm, with all this done its now peaking at 10000! and i have over 40whp from 9000 to 10500. the peak numbers dont do my GS justice because the powerband is so flat across the rpm range she feels like a missile (for a 500..er..487) I think my next steps are to put another washer on each needle or larger main jets then build more adjustment into the timing and keep tuning until i max something else out.

P.S. I will put a copy of the dyno sheets up as soon as I figure out how to work this darned copy/fax/printer thing at work! >:(
07 black GS500F; fenderectomy, NGK DPR9EIX-9 plugs, 15T sprocket, Jardine exhaust, K&N lunchbox, 20-62.5-152.5 jets 1 washer, timing advance 6*, flushmount signals,Tommaselli clipons over tree, sv650 throttle, 20w forkoil, sport demon tires, Buddha fork brace, Goodridge SS lines, double bubble

ecpreston

#32
That's really excellent info. The highest suggested main jet we have listed on the wiki is 150 and you found that to still be too lean! Was the air temp fairly low at the dyno? Low altitude where you are? I'm just wondering how we all ended up thinking 150 was enough for just about anything. I just put 142.5 in with just a K&N, thinking that was erring on the side of rich, and while it runs good.... the plugs still indicate a bit lean, so I wonder.

Just a thought, wouldn't an extra washer just make it even more rich at 4k? Seems like if anything you'd want to take the washer you have in there out and maybe try the next step up main. Though the main sounds right, isn't 12.5-13 perfect?

way to stick with it.... sounds like an expensive dyno day!  :o

Quote from: intergalactic on June 24, 2009, 07:32:07 AMSpark advance is perceived to be good, but is undesirable.
Maybe I'm missing something. But this doesn't seem right to me. Why, if advanced timing and running higher octane fuel to deal with it, is "undesirable", do performance cars require high octane to deal with their advanced timing? Why do racers do the same thing? Advance the timing, run 110 octane. And here, again, we have someone that just found another couple HP (5+%) through advancing the timing. I thought it was pretty widely accepted, it makes more power.  :dunno_white: And let's forget about tolulene for the moment, that's a different discussion and no-one's going to bother with that for a street vehicle.

Chanse

very very nice info, how much the runs cost ya? how long on the dyno, my local dyno charges by the hour.
Current project:
Mmotos full body kit (YOU DONT WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM... READ MY THREAD BOOT STATE UPDATE)
K&N Lunchbox
Buddah's jets
CBR F2 rearsets
Ducati pass pegs (Modified)
Kat rear wheel
Carbon Fiber Exhaust Can, possibly shortened and relocated
And so on......

intergalactic

Higher 'octane' is required to resist preignition.

Timing advance is implemented to deal with the fact that it takes fuel time to burn.

Most pump fuels with higher 'octane' burn more slowly.

So adding timing is generally done to deal with the slower burning fuel required for higher compression engines or those with poor combustion chamber design.

He likely made more power by adding timing because he was using slower burning fuel than stock. Mid grade. With stock fuel he might have had the power there and lost it with timing advance. Similarly if he ran premium, he might have needed even more advance.

It is possible he make the few percent more peak power by pushing the power higher in the powerband. The stock ignition curve might be underadvanced near redline to discourage over-revving.  In which case, then this mod does get you those 2 hp up high. 

The only way to know is if he re-ran the dyno runs with 87 octane and stock timing and the same jetting, as there isn't enough information to really know. He is running in a nice rich zone for power now, so the back to back tests wouldn't require jetting.

Either way, nice dyno info.



Quote from: intergalactic on June 24, 2009, 07:32:07 AMSpark advance is perceived to be good, but is undesirable.
Maybe I'm missing something. But this doesn't seem right to me. Why, if advanced timing and running higher octane fuel to deal with it, is "undesirable", do performance cars require high octane to deal with their advanced timing? Why do racers do the same thing? Advance the timing, run 110 octane. And here, again, we have someone that just found another couple HP (5+%) through advancing the timing. I thought it was pretty widely accepted, it makes more power.  :dunno_white: And let's forget about tolulene for the moment, that's a different discussion and no-one's going to bother with that for a street vehicle.
[/quote]
1992 GS500E- 40/125 jets, '08 petcock
Aerostich roadcrafter/Sidi Vortice Air/Shoei X-11/Cortech Scarab gloves
SS front line (thanks ineedanap!)
metisse sliders (thanks grayghost) still working on the front motor mount
1992 GSXR600 shock .95kg/mm fronts springs, 20W oil
Yama JN6-F4560-00 filte

bill14224

Advancing timing isn't undesirable, but it has practical limits.  If you advance it too much the fuel will burn while the pistons are still rising, and will destroy them if left that way.  Advancing timing also reduces midrange power.  If you want an engine with lots of top end and you don't care about midrange power, advancing timing is the cheapest and best way to do it.

High compression (among other things) can cause pre-ignition, requiring high octane fuel, but I don't think high octane fuel burns slower.  Its higher flash point causes it to begin burning later when you'd be into a pre-ignition condition otherwise, but I think the time it takes to burn is the same assuming the F/A mixture is correct.  Once the plug fires, the fuel will begin burning no matter what the octane rating is because the spark temperature exceeds any gasoline's flash point.

That is very good (and expensive) info!  I wanna see your last dyno curve!  I'd also be interested to know after all this how bad a hit your mpg takes.

Your data backs-up much of what I've read here over the past year.  You spent a large fraction of what the bike's worth and picked-up 5 HP.  You did a good job!  Previous estimates have mostly been 3-4.  I hope you guys get a lot of enjoyment out of tinkering.  Otherwise the 500 Ninja makes more sense, giving 60 ponies and 50+ mpg out of the box.  I'm reluctant to do what you've done because I don't want to end-up with a gas-guzzling 500.
V&H pipes, K&N drop-in, seat by KnoPlace.com, 17/39 sprockets, matching grips, fenderectomy, short signals, new mirrors - 10 scariest words: "I'm here from the government and I'm here to help!"

black and silver twin

Quotesounds like an expensive dyno day!  Shocked
The dyno time was very cheap (for me because I work at INTENSE Racing and have access to a dyno) but normally 10 runs over the course of 4 hours is real expensive.

QuoteJust a thought, wouldn't an extra washer just make it even more rich at 4k? Seems like if anything you'd want to take the washer you have in there out and maybe try the next step up main. Though the main sounds right, isn't 12.5-13 perfect?
there was a large dip in the AFR with or with-out the washer, it just made it happen sooner. and normally 12.8:1 is perfect for most N/A vehicles but the GS made the most power at 13.5:1! I just wasnt comfortable with that considering I cruise at 90-120mph for extended periods :police: and my dyno guy said it might pop a piston at that afr for long. I actually LOST a little over 1 whp for safety's sake. but the extra fuel did help give another 1/2 ft/lb and MUCH better throttle response (read "INSTANTANEOUS throttle response")

QuoteYour data backs-up much of what I've read here over the past year.  You spent a large fraction of what the bike's worth and picked-up 5 HP.  You did a good job!  Previous estimates have mostly been 3-4.  I hope you guys get a lot of enjoyment out of tinkering.  Otherwise the 500 Ninja makes more sense, giving 60 ponies and 50+ mpg out of the box.  I'm reluctant to do what you've done because I don't want to end-up with a gas-guzzling 500.
I spent $360 including shipping on all the power parts and gained 13% power, that sounds like a good deal to me. and as far as MPG goes I was getting ~62MPG average mileage stock, ~65mpg with 15t front sprocket (yes it got better gas mileage and 6 mph higher top speed)(and yes it originally had 16t sprocket, I counted ;)) But I have yet to do any calculations with the current set up. my guess is it will be slightly worse but not much. it seriously takes less than 1/4 throttle to maintain 60mph and almost no throttle just going around town. I can now go from a stop at 1700 rpm and not bog and still out-accelerate all the cars around me while shifting at 3300~3400. I think the new found efficiency will offset most of the additional fuel in normal driving, though not completely im sure. but under heavy throttle ive increased consumption by 20% so high speed 90mph+ will definitely get worse mpg.

My point is for less than $400 dollars you can take a ...cough...cough... "conservatively" powered bike, add 13% power, change the gearing slightly  and completely change the feel of the bike. while still getting great mpg.

P.S.Im actually scared to do a wheelie now because there is so much more power down low, I think it might flip!
07 black GS500F; fenderectomy, NGK DPR9EIX-9 plugs, 15T sprocket, Jardine exhaust, K&N lunchbox, 20-62.5-152.5 jets 1 washer, timing advance 6*, flushmount signals,Tommaselli clipons over tree, sv650 throttle, 20w forkoil, sport demon tires, Buddha fork brace, Goodridge SS lines, double bubble

black and silver twin

P.P.S.
QuoteI hope you guys get a lot of enjoyment out of tinkering.
That is at least 50% of the reason I own a motorcycle AND a car that have solid flat tappet cams. Mmm... adjusting valve lash, FUN :cookoo:
07 black GS500F; fenderectomy, NGK DPR9EIX-9 plugs, 15T sprocket, Jardine exhaust, K&N lunchbox, 20-62.5-152.5 jets 1 washer, timing advance 6*, flushmount signals,Tommaselli clipons over tree, sv650 throttle, 20w forkoil, sport demon tires, Buddha fork brace, Goodridge SS lines, double bubble

SpaceMonkey

#38
Heres the result for my 2005 GS500F, just back from the workshop. K&N Lunchbox, rejet, and stock muffler has been replaced with a Biltwell Cannon (short and loud, though probably not as optimal for performance as a V&H). Note the "before run on this was done with the new filter and muffler fitted but before the rejet, so the gain is probably slighty larger than what you see here.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Elmojo

OMG your bike has negative HP!
Photos upside down...brain hurts....can't read....blacking out.... :)

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk