Thoughts on possibly moving to a CBR250r with ABS?

[Kijona]

Here's some homework:

Find a handful of specs & performance stats for say, a Ninja 250R and a GS500.  (I'll even accept it being an E instead of the heavier F.)

Compare the two.

Apply your knowledge of the physics involved in making a motorcycle turn.  (Garner some, if you have none.  Actually, if you have none, you should have recused yourself from this debate long ago.)

Explain to me how a heavier bike with roughly the same P/W ratio & performance specs will 1: Get through turns faster and 2: Get to the next turn faster.

(If you are able to explain that, I'd like to enlist your help.  I own a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to unload.  I could use someone adept at selling fantasies to the uninformed.)

Dude...you are such a tool.

[Twisted]

Has someone somewhere along the way told you that if you squeeze the front brake level too hard you'll flip it right over?  I've found over the decades that this comment is one that's contributed greatly towards riders never learning how to brake properly and effectively.

If you regularly ride in the rain, the dirt, or through streets strewn with leaves, ABS can be a great benefit.

If you're locking up your rear in normal around-town driving, even if it's an emergency situation, you're doing it wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. First emergency bake situation was on a dirt bike, on dirt... too much front brake and went down.... now on the road I need to train myself to use the front brake properly because of the first experience I had.....  I still lock rear and have to adjust my braking in emergencies every now and then*, but I'm getting much better. (just do a little fishy then readjust and stop quickly)

*I'm a fairly new rider

While we were being taught about brakes my instructor explained to us that you have to treat your front brake like you would your girlfriends boobies. Grab it hard and fast when you want some and it will likely turn around and slap you. If you want "front brake" its starts off as a gentle squeeze that gets firmer and firmer until you get what you want. 

[comradeiggy]

Here's some homework:

Find a handful of specs & performance stats for say, a Ninja 250R and a GS500.  (I'll even accept it being an E instead of the heavier F.)

Compare the two.

Apply your knowledge of the physics involved in making a motorcycle turn.  (Garner some, if you have none.  Actually, if you have none, you should have recused yourself from this debate long ago.)

Explain to me how a heavier bike with roughly the same P/W ratio & performance specs will 1: Get through turns faster and 2: Get to the next turn faster.

(If you are able to explain that, I'd like to enlist your help.  I own a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to unload.  I could use someone adept at selling fantasies to the uninformed.)

GS500F weighs 50lbs more and has roughly double the HP. How does that work out to even roughly the same power to weight ratio?

[shonole]

Here's some homework:

Find a handful of specs & performance stats for say, a Ninja 250R and a GS500.  (I'll even accept it being an E instead of the heavier F.)

Compare the two.

Apply your knowledge of the physics involved in making a motorcycle turn.  (Garner some, if you have none.  Actually, if you have none, you should have recused yourself from this debate long ago.)

Explain to me how a heavier bike with roughly the same P/W ratio & performance specs will 1: Get through turns faster and 2: Get to the next turn faster.

(If you are able to explain that, I'd like to enlist your help.  I own a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to unload.  I could use someone adept at selling fantasies to the uninformed.)

GS500F weighs 50lbs more and has roughly double the HP. How does that work out to even roughly the same power to weight ratio?

I'm wondering the same thing.    

[mister]

Here's some homework:

Find a handful of specs & performance stats for say, a Ninja 250R and a GS500.  (I'll even accept it being an E instead of the heavier F.)

Compare the two.

Apply your knowledge of the physics involved in making a motorcycle turn.  (Garner some, if you have none.  Actually, if you have none, you should have recused yourself from this debate long ago.)

Explain to me how a heavier bike with roughly the same P/W ratio & performance specs will 1: Get through turns faster and 2: Get to the next turn faster.

(If you are able to explain that, I'd like to enlist your help.  I own a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to unload.  I could use someone adept at selling fantasies to the uninformed.)

GS500F weighs 50lbs more and has roughly double the HP. How does that work out to even roughly the same power to weight ratio?

I'm wondering the same thing.    

Don't question the all knowing Dougdoberman. He is the king of all knowledge of motorcycles. We must all bow down to his omnipotence. We must not question. He is never wrong.  And to prove it he accuses people of having no knowledge or experience and thus he is right.

Michael

[slipperymongoose]

Nah I say 

[ohgood]

*I* have ridden the new CBR250. I have been riding since Moses played Fullback for Jerusalem. I have ridden every bike ever made (by Suzuki called a GS500) and can categorically say.... a 250cc bike will NOT go through a set of twisties faster than say an r6 or Striple or even GS500 in the hands of the same rider.

Cornering is not just about carrying speed in and then out. It is also a factor of suspension and sprung/unsprung weight. Center of gravity, ground clearances, overall weight vs suspension, cornering technique and rider ability.

In comparing the CBR250 to an R6, you'll see the R6 weighs 50lbs more. That's 50lbs of extra inertia the suspension would need to overcome to effect the stability of the bike mid corner. Together with better suspension the r6 is more likely to take the same corner more stable than a more bouncy CBR250. It is also thus more likely to carry its speed through the corner and be less effected by any uphill gradient changes than the 250. The heavier bike will have more momentum, in other words.

And while the r6's larger tires might not make it dive into corners as readily as the 250, the greater size contact patch will provide more grip through the corner.

Add the rider's weight of say 180lbs to 200lbs and the 100+hp stronger engine of the R6 will again be less effected and the bike will be less likely to lose speed/momentum due to up gradient changes than the 250cc CBR with its measly 21hp.

I'm not sure you actually understand the physics of a motorcycle going through a turn and the effect of tires upon that.  If you think that a larger bike's weight & momentum is a benefit to getting around a corner, well ... that's sorta the end of the discussion right there.  Yeah, it'll help it keep its speed up for a short time in an uphill situation, but beyond that ...

Now, the CBR250 might beat the r6 in a gymkhana where time is started at entry into the first obstacle and the course has Zero straight bits, is all entirely twisty and tight as a fish's ass. But certainly not ever going to happen in the really real world.

As has been stated, no experienced rider will forego their 600cc and up bike for a 250cc, thus the 250 will only live in the realm of the learning and inexperienced. And the argument over what a 250cc could or could not do is a moot one. And those who think the 250cc will eat up other things will not change their mind - the ego needs to protect its thought.

NOW, if you want to discuss the mid size bikes vs the liter bikes through a set of twists....

I'm donno where the comparison to an R6 has come into the picture.  I was under the impression that we were talking about a sporty 250 vs. a GS500.   Yes, there comes a point where horsepower can overcome the inherent cornering speed advantage of a smaller bike, but considering the case of a GS500 vs a CBR250, a set of tight twisties isn't that point.

Just remember, in all likelihood, this bloke on his Goldwing would still whip your ass doing Deals Gap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo

First, I'm not sure why you'd think that.  You've got no clue as to my skill level.  Yeah, he's fast.  But he's speed limited by his cornering clearance. 

And Deal's Gap is a pretty good example of a situation where a smaller, lighter bike can absolutely clean up.  You think this guy wouldn't be faster on a Ninja 250?   


Listen, I'm not advocating that a 250 is a better everyday choice than anything larger.  Hell, I'm against the OP downgrading from a GS500 to a CBR250 (even though I love the CBR) because I think that the addition of ABS isn't worth everything else he'd have to give up.  But there are definitely situations where a sporty 250 will be both faster and likely more enjoyable.  Situations outside gymkhana.  Most of us spend most of our time not anywhere near those situations, but to deny that they exist is wrong.   

do you agree that there is a point at a tighter radius where the grip of the tires is more important than the horsepower?

[mister]

*I* have ridden the new CBR250. I have been riding since Moses played Fullback for Jerusalem. I have ridden every bike ever made (by Suzuki called a GS500) and can categorically say.... a 250cc bike will NOT go through a set of twisties faster than say an r6 or Striple or even GS500 in the hands of the same rider.

Cornering is not just about carrying speed in and then out. It is also a factor of suspension and sprung/unsprung weight. Center of gravity, ground clearances, overall weight vs suspension, cornering technique and rider ability.

In comparing the CBR250 to an R6, you'll see the R6 weighs 50lbs more. That's 50lbs of extra inertia the suspension would need to overcome to effect the stability of the bike mid corner. Together with better suspension the r6 is more likely to take the same corner more stable than a more bouncy CBR250. It is also thus more likely to carry its speed through the corner and be less effected by any uphill gradient changes than the 250. The heavier bike will have more momentum, in other words.

And while the r6's larger tires might not make it dive into corners as readily as the 250, the greater size contact patch will provide more grip through the corner.

Add the rider's weight of say 180lbs to 200lbs and the 100+hp stronger engine of the R6 will again be less effected and the bike will be less likely to lose speed/momentum due to up gradient changes than the 250cc CBR with its measly 21hp.

I'm not sure you actually understand the physics of a motorcycle going through a turn and the effect of tires upon that.  If you think that a larger bike's weight & momentum is a benefit to getting around a corner, well ... that's sorta the end of the discussion right there.  Yeah, it'll help it keep its speed up for a short time in an uphill situation, but beyond that ...

Now, the CBR250 might beat the r6 in a gymkhana where time is started at entry into the first obstacle and the course has Zero straight bits, is all entirely twisty and tight as a fish's ass. But certainly not ever going to happen in the really real world.

As has been stated, no experienced rider will forego their 600cc and up bike for a 250cc, thus the 250 will only live in the realm of the learning and inexperienced. And the argument over what a 250cc could or could not do is a moot one. And those who think the 250cc will eat up other things will not change their mind - the ego needs to protect its thought.

NOW, if you want to discuss the mid size bikes vs the liter bikes through a set of twists....

I'm donno where the comparison to an R6 has come into the picture.  I was under the impression that we were talking about a sporty 250 vs. a GS500.   Yes, there comes a point where horsepower can overcome the inherent cornering speed advantage of a smaller bike, but considering the case of a GS500 vs a CBR250, a set of tight twisties isn't that point.

Just remember, in all likelihood, this bloke on his Goldwing would still whip your ass doing Deals Gap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo

First, I'm not sure why you'd think that.  You've got no clue as to my skill level.  Yeah, he's fast.  But he's speed limited by his cornering clearance. 

And Deal's Gap is a pretty good example of a situation where a smaller, lighter bike can absolutely clean up.  You think this guy wouldn't be faster on a Ninja 250?   


Listen, I'm not advocating that a 250 is a better everyday choice than anything larger.  Hell, I'm against the OP downgrading from a GS500 to a CBR250 (even though I love the CBR) because I think that the addition of ABS isn't worth everything else he'd have to give up.  But there are definitely situations where a sporty 250 will be both faster and likely more enjoyable.  Situations outside gymkhana.  Most of us spend most of our time not anywhere near those situations, but to deny that they exist is wrong.   

do you agree that there is a point at a tighter radius where the grip of the tires is more important than the horsepower?

Me?

Sure. But without enough horses once you lose momentum the bike with more hp will pull away even if all other things are equal. It's the same as the GS in tight twists with 600s. Corners can be taken at the same speed and the GS will do fine Until some momentum is lost. And the higher hp 600 can get back up to speed quicker.

Michael

[slipperymongoose]

OMG that is totally the story of my life on the GS. Funny that!

[SAFE-T]

Without enough horses once you lose momentum the bike with more hp will pull away even if all other things are equal.

Michael

Ding ding ding  we have a winner !!!

This was the problem the Petronas triple had in World Superbike ~ the rider (Troy Corser) could go fast enough to set pole on a lap with no other traffic, but as soon as he had someone in front of him blocking his line through the corner which reduced his mid-corner speed, they would pull away on the gas coming out of the turn.

Kenny Roberts Sr. said the same thing about racing the KR3 in Grand Prix: "there's only so much time you can make up on the brakes".

While it's nice to think the smaller lighter bike could be as fast through a set of turns as a larger bike, it's really the rider that makes the difference. I recall in particular an article in a European magazine where they took an 'average Joe' rider and a professional road racer from the BSB series and gave them the same bike (I think it was a CBR954...) and timed them around a lap of (Donington Park?) a racetrack. Then they gave the racer successively smaller bikes until he finally got to a lap time that was slower than the average Joe's time. I think he got all the way down to a 125 

If anyone can find a link to this article, it's pretty enlightening.

[slipperymongoose]

I take it that was probably a clear track so no one infront of him he had to overtake

[Gary856]

In comparing the CBR250 to an R6, you'll see the R6 weighs 50lbs more. That's 50lbs of extra inertia the suspension would need to overcome to effect the stability of the bike mid corner. Together with better suspension the r6 is more likely to take the same corner more stable than a more bouncy CBR250. It is also thus more likely to carry its speed through the corner and be less effected by any uphill gradient changes than the 250. The heavier bike will have more momentum, in other words.

Wow, you're saying everything else being equal, more weight corners better? Wow. And Dougdoberman is the only guy challenging this?

Real physics - more weight -> more momentum -> harder to change speed and direction! In head-to-head sportbike comparisons they make even just 10 extra lbs of weight a big deal because it negatively affects acceleration, braking and turning.

[Phil B]

Sure. But without enough horses once you lose momentum the bike with more hp will pull away even if all other things are equal. It's the same as the GS in tight twists with 600s. Corners can be taken at the same speed and the GS will do fine Until some momentum is lost. And the higher hp 600 can get back up to speed quicker.

You sound like you're talking about track handling, where you're "pulling away" on high speed straightaways.

But if you're doing canyon riding, or other back-to-back twisties, then there is no significant "pulling away". It's a matter of which bike can maintain a continuous higher speed through things.
In that case, (if you presume same tyres) the lighter bike should do better, because it will have a higher speed point of losing traction.


Talking about "xyz racer on the track", has no business in this thread. This is a thread about a street bike purchase.

[SAFE-T]

Corners are corners, whether on a street or a racetrack. The physics don't change.

A heavier bike will have more momentum going into the turn, require more grip to hold it in the turn as it has more weight trying to go outward, take more energy to slow down, turn and speed up again. 

[SAFE-T]

And the point is that the potential purchaser should try a CBR250 w/ABS at a Honda Demo Ride before deciding to buy one or not, particularly since there are other middleweight bikes that have ABS that might be better for them.

[SAFE-T]

And while it's intriguing to think you might somehow keep up to or even embarass your friends on their bikes that 4+ times as much hp, it probably isn't going to happen unless you have some serious mad skills. Or your friends are shriners.

[Kijona]

Stability and handling are somewhat different. I think a heavier bike will be more stable in a turn but not turn as well due to the extra weight. I think that, all things being equal, the lighter a bike is the better it will corner - but the downside is the lighter it is, the more easily it's affected by variations.

Let's face it...a 250 Ninja/CBR/whatever will run circles around a big cruiser in turns...but that big cruiser will go through the turns with a more planted feel whereas the 250 would feel a lot more skittish.

As far as ABS versus non-ABS, it's like parallel parking - you can rely on a computer to do it for you or you can learn how to do it yourself. Sure, you might bump a car along the way but you'll eventually learn. I don't think that we need computers to separate us further and further from the machine.

If you're getting another bike just because it has ABS and you can't seem to stay on the bike without it, no offense, but I think you need a different hobby.

[mister]

In comparing the CBR250 to an R6, you'll see the R6 weighs 50lbs more. That's 50lbs of extra inertia the suspension would need to overcome to effect the stability of the bike mid corner. Together with better suspension the r6 is more likely to take the same corner more stable than a more bouncy CBR250. It is also thus more likely to carry its speed through the corner and be less effected by any uphill gradient changes than the 250. The heavier bike will have more momentum, in other words.

Wow, you're saying everything else being equal, more weight corners better? Wow. And Dougdoberman is the only guy challenging this?

Real physics - more weight -> more momentum -> harder to change speed and direction! In head-to-head sportbike comparisons they make even just 10 extra lbs of weight a big deal because it negatively affects acceleration, braking and turning.

Read the bit your quoted from me again. As I said either elsewhere in That post or somewhere here, there is Sprung and Unsprung weight. The heavier R6 has more inertia that the suspension needs to overcome. Hence, the r6 is More Stable in a corner than a lighter bike. The bike with less weight has less inertia and is more likely to Bounce - as I wrote. Bouncing is not good for corner taking.

The Heavier r6 has more momentum. Thus, as corners change their gradient the slightly heavier bike is less likely to be negatively effected. Hence, it is more likely to maintain its momentum and can continue. The lighter and less powerful bike is more likely to lose what momentum it has and take longer to get back what it lost.

The more stable bike that can maintain its momentum will be quicker through the section of road. And that is not the under powered lightweight bike.

If you want to compare it to a heavy ass Harley then you'll have a different outcome. I've seen a woman on a 250 Suzuki Intruder outride larger cruisers through the twists. But we aren't comparing those, we are trying to compare like to like. A sporty 250 vs a sporty slightly larger than 250.

The 250 is going to be less stable and less able to maintain its momentum. And those things will see it fall behind compared to the more stable momentum maintaining bike.

Michael

[Gary856]

Read the bit your quoted from me again. As I said either elsewhere in That post or somewhere here, there is Sprung and Unsprung weight. The heavier R6 has more inertia that the suspension needs to overcome. Hence, the r6 is More Stable in a corner than a lighter bike. The bike with less weight has less inertia and is more likely to Bounce - as I wrote. Bouncing is not good for corner taking.

The Heavier r6 has more momentum. Thus, as corners change their gradient the slightly heavier bike is less likely to be negatively effected. Hence, it is more likely to maintain its momentum and can continue. The lighter and less powerful bike is more likely to lose what momentum it has and take longer to get back what it lost.

The more stable bike that can maintain its momentum will be quicker through the section of road. And that is not the under powered lightweight bike.

If you want to compare it to a heavy ass Harley then you'll have a different outcome. I've seen a woman on a 250 Suzuki Intruder outride larger cruisers through the twists. But we aren't comparing those, we are trying to compare like to like. A sporty 250 vs a sporty slightly larger than 250.

The 250 is going to be less stable and less able to maintain its momentum. And those things will see it fall behind compared to the more stable momentum maintaining bike.

Michael

Hey mister, nothing personal or anything, we're just talking bikes which we all love... 

Heavier = more stability is a misconception, otherwise you'd see people adding weight to race bikes and sportbikes, instead of making them as light as possible. An R6 (417 lbs wet per Wiki) is lighter than a GS500 (around 440 lbs wet I believe). R6 is more agile due to its lower weight and racier geometry, yet more stable in the corners due to its much higher spec suspension. Lighter weight is easier for the suspension to cope with. A lighter bike bounces LESS when it has the equal quality suspension tuned properly for its weight; it has less weight to bounce. More weight makes the suspension work harder to control cornering load and bumps, and the bike is less stable (i.e., bounces more), not more stable.

More weight = more momentum, which means a heavier bike will coast farther (againt road friction and wind resistance) when off the gas, but the heavier weight works against it for cornering. More weight = more moment = more resistance to turning. F (force) = m (mass) x a (acceleration) says a heavier bike requires more cornering force, i.e., traction. Put it another way, given the same traction limit, a lighter bike can go thru a corer quicker -> carrying more cornering speed.

[comradeiggy]

Cornering speed has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with suspension, tires, and geometry. If you had 2 bikes exactly the same, except one weighed, say, 100lbs more, with all that mass at the center of gravity, would be able to take a corner at the same speed. Tire grip is a function of the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound, and nothing more. Heavier bikes can exert more force on the ground, but they need that extra force to accelerate at the same rate as a lighter bike.