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My GS500E clean up

Started by MrSporrer, January 16, 2015, 05:50:34 PM

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MrSporrer

I followed this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ2Crz1wVts and used a guitar string to clean out the jets, and both cylinders are definitely firing but I have heard a miss every so often, maybe the missing causes the stall at low rpm? used to happen on a mustang I owned.

Big Rich

Ok. A guitar string works well for the Jets themselves, but the passage ways in and out of the jets can still be clogged slightly. Boiling the carbs in a concoction is one solution, along with ultrasonic cleaners....

So you tried the pulling one spark plug boot at a time thing I mentioned earlier?  Just checking....
83 GR650 (riding / rolling project)

It's opener there in the wide open air...

crackin

Check you float level using the clear hose method. If they look ok, start the bike with the hose still connected to the carb bowl and see if the level drops.
Are all the o rings on the carbs in place? It sounds like a lean condition.
No matter what i do to it, it's still a GS
It's not how fast your bike is, it's how long you are prepared to hold the throttle on.

MrSporrer

I pulled off the boot on one of the plugs and the bike ran? also when taking off the plug i felt some shock even through the boot? Like I mentioned in over my head here not even sure how a two cylinder could run with only one firing. wouldnt the other just keep filling with gas vapor?

Quick question, how much would it cost for a mechanic to look at my bike and tell me what's wrong then I could fix the problem?

As always thank you, I promise that once the bike is running properly there will be another thread where I do cosmetic changes and such.

Al Capwn

Can run through some troubleshooting steps to point you in the right direction, since I was/am having some issues as well:

  • Pull plug wires (individually) while bike is running. Is there a dip in the speed or no change? If there is absolutely no change in idle/running when you pull the wire, it could be you are only firing on one cylinder. Replace the plug wire to the plug and check the other side. If the bike dies, there is your problem. You can also verify this by revving slightly to warm up the exhaust pipes. Take a small bit of water and lightly splash the exhaust pipes. If one steams/evaporates and the other doesn't, it is a dead cylinder.
  • Stalling at low RPMs could also mean pilot jet, idle speed adjustment (if available), or air/fuel problems.
  • Vacuum leaks. Spray some carb cleaner/WD40/starter fluid around vacuum hoses and intake manifold boots. Changes in RPM indicate a vacuum leak in the lines/seal and should be replaced.
  • Compression test. Rent a compression tool (Autozone) and see if you are getting compression in both cylinders to rule out any other major engine issues.

crackin

Quote from: MrSporrer on June 24, 2015, 10:36:38 AM
I pulled off the boot on one of the plugs and the bike ran? also when taking off the plug i felt some shock even through the boot? Like I mentioned in over my head here not even sure how a two cylinder could run with only one firing. wouldnt the other just keep filling with gas vapor?

Quick question, how much would it cost for a mechanic to look at my bike and tell me what's wrong then I could fix the problem?

As always thank you, I promise that once the bike is running properly there will be another thread where I do cosmetic changes and such.

The bike will run off one cylinder and yes you will get a shock when pulling the lead , wear a rubber glove next time. And yes the other cylinder will fill with gas vapour, that is if it is getting fuel. But it will just blow out the exhaust, its no big deal. Did you try pulling the other boot? If so what happened?
  As for how much a mechanic will charge you to look at the bike depends on how much the mechanic charges per hour. I don't know any mechanics that will diagnose a problem for you and then allow you to fix it, but you might get lucky.
No matter what i do to it, it's still a GS
It's not how fast your bike is, it's how long you are prepared to hold the throttle on.

MrSporrer

So after some tests I have decided that the left cylinder is not firing or missing almost constantly, after a very short run (like a minute) the right exhast pipe was hot enough that you didn't wanna touch it for very long while the left was cold. So this changes everything as now I need to find what is causing this problem. I recall that upon purchase of the bike the original owner said it needed a new boot for that side and i just replaced them both.
I realize this is worst case scenario and im jumping the gun but if this is a case where I'll need a rebuild, is it worth it?
Also is it dangerous to take off both spark plugs and test them out of the cylinders?

Al Capwn

Quote from: MrSporrer on June 26, 2015, 10:57:47 AM
So after some tests I have decided that the left cylinder is not firing or missing almost constantly, after a very short run (like a minute) the right exhast pipe was hot enough that you didn't wanna touch it for very long while the left was cold. So this changes everything as now I need to find what is causing this problem. I recall that upon purchase of the bike the original owner said it needed a new boot for that side and i just replaced them both.
I realize this is worst case scenario and im jumping the gun but if this is a case where I'll need a rebuild, is it worth it?
Also is it dangerous to take off both spark plugs and test them out of the cylinders?

Well you are jumping the gun a bit - worst case scenario is that you have a compression issue. That part is time consuming or expensive, and/or potentially both. If you are ambitious, you could repair it, but that takes time and parts. Worst case scenario is purchasing a used engine; prices may vary, but looking at 300-800 bucks. Most other problems are relatively inexpensive. So before we panic, let's isolate the issue.

You need three things for fun times: compression, fuel/air, and heat (spark). If you are short or absent any of those, you are gonna have a bad time. First, verify you are getting fire (spark) by getting a spark plug tester. It runs 10-15 bucks - alternatively, you can ground it to the engine head, like the dangerous rogue I am, but safety and all that...

If you are not getting a spark, or it is weak (yellow colored), it is either the plug, the wires, or the coil. If you are getting a spark, congratulations, we get to move on to the more challenging issues.  ;)

Next, check the compression. The proper way is to get a compression tester. Alternatively, there are more redneck methods. Basically, compression is squishing air inside the cylinder. If it isn't strong enough, it means it is leaking past the rings in your pistons and that means lack of power and potentially lack of combustion. Gut feeling: I think your bike will pass this test.

In my case, it was a stuck intake valve not closing all the way. So instead of the gas being sealed inside the cylinder and exploding like it should, it would be shot back out during the compression stroke into the carb and air filter. Mmmmm, gas mist. You can test this as well - take the airbox/air filter off and place your hand behind the offending carb side. Test at idle and with some gentle revs. If you feel air or misty gas blowing back onto your hand, guess what, you probably have a stuck valve. You can read about my woes here: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=69137.0

Ok, let's assume your valves are sealing and you have compression and you have spark. That leaves fuel delivery, aka the carb. The left side of the carb is not doing what it is supposed to. Clean it. Clean it some more. Clean it again. Check for any damage to the diaphragms, jets, needles, and hoses. Is the fuel screw turned all the way in? Is a jet clogged? Are the carbs in sync? These, and many more potential mysteries abound.

MrSporrer

Thank you, I just bought new plugs so if there's a problem in that area it would be in the plug cable or coil, explain if you could the best way to test them the by grounding them to the engine head?

Why do you doubt that it is a compression issue? That's a good thing just wondering if one of the symptoms keyed you in.

Also if I decide I'm a lazy sob how much would a shop charge to find out which one of these is causing the problem and fix it for me? (yeah I know it sounds like a waste of cash but I'm itching to ride)

Lastly thank you for the input!

The Buddha

1 cyl losing spark can be due to a bad auxillary ground. Its the thinner black wire coming off the battery.
Cool.
Buddha.
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I run a business based on other people's junk.
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MrSporrer

The Buddha, you mention the auxiliary ground, how would I test this?

Al Capwn

Quote from: MrSporrer on June 26, 2015, 10:31:02 PM
Thank you, I just bought new plugs so if there's a problem in that area it would be in the plug cable or coil, explain if you could the best way to test them the by grounding them to the engine head?

Why do you doubt that it is a compression issue? That's a good thing just wondering if one of the symptoms keyed you in.

Also if I decide I'm a lazy sob how much would a shop charge to find out which one of these is causing the problem and fix it for me? (yeah I know it sounds like a waste of cash but I'm itching to ride)

Lastly thank you for the input!

Testing a Spark Plug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUOmsGiirTU

As far as compression issue, call it a gut feeling. Compression issues, generally speaking, are due to excessive engine wear or a catastrophic failure which damages either the piston, piston rings, or cylinder walls. A little compression loss means that you may be burning some oil as it is not sealing completely. A lot of compression loss means that too much pressure is escaping past the piston to generate power. Same principle as a bullet from a gun; there is a explosion that propels gas forward that must escape out the barrel. I can't say with authority that you don't have a compression problem, because we haven't tested it. So test it, and find out.

Testing Compression
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj8YDwlILwY

Mechanic pricing has no constant, but assume the going rate is ~100/hour. Motorcycle mechanics are more inflated than car mechanics. Oil change on a bike here is $100-$150, which is downright bananas. Call around and ask, that is the best advice I can give. Explain what you have already checked, and that helps them ballpark repair costs.

Trust me when I know that you are anxious to get back on two wheels; I know I am. However, nothing beats the feeling of knowing you were able to fix it yourself and save 300-900 bucks. So take Shia's advice and...

MrSporrer

Alright thanks, any idea what Buddha meant about the battery needing grounded?

Al Capwn

The Aux ground is a smaller black cable that comes off the back of your negative (black end) battery terminal. If it is faulty, that can causes issues. It goes into a cable connector clip thing. There is a technical name for it, but it's been a long day, so words fail me. I'll try to get a picture of it when I get a free moment here. Anyway, check the condition of the cables and the connector. I am sure someone with an electrical background will tell you how to test with a multi-meter.

Also, you can get a multi-meter for free or dirty cheap from your local Harbor Freight, if you don't have one. They are very useful for troubleshooting electrical issues. I, however, do not know how to use them well, so maybe Buddha or someone else would be able to guide you there.

metatron

Quote from: MrSporrer on June 27, 2015, 10:28:02 PM
Alright thanks, any idea what Buddha meant about the battery needing grounded?

Set the multi-meter to continuity and then secure one of the probes to the frame where it makes good contact, place the other on the negative terminal. now wiggle the black cable that connects to the frame, if the reading changes you have a bad connection. Probably 30% of electrical problems are a bad connection..

MrSporrer


Al Capwn

Quote from: MrSporrer on July 02, 2015, 09:37:16 AM
Here's test number one. what do you think?

https://youtu.be/4Jj3jhq0PGI

I think you have both plugs with a spark, so that is good. The second spark plug's spark looks yellow compared to the first, which was a nice bright blue, but that is all I can tell. So unless someone else says otherwise, it looks like you are in business from the spark side of things.

MrSporrer

the compression test shows 120 psi in the right and 60 psi in the left.
What should it be, obviously more than 60 but is the right side good at 120?
Probably going to call around for estimates knowing what I know now. Just want to ride.

Al Capwn

Sorry to hear that man, that is the crappy part. Could be blown piston rings, or other nastiness. Can't speak to compression rates, just that they should be over 100 and within 10% of each other. Best of luck on the repairs!

Big Rich

Mr, I can't remember if you said it earlier, but when we're your valves done last? If the valve clearances are out of spec, you can get really low compression numbers.
83 GR650 (riding / rolling project)

It's opener there in the wide open air...

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