Quote from: mister on May 07, 2012, 03:03:11 PM

*I* have ridden the new CBR250. I have been riding since Moses played Fullback for Jerusalem. I have ridden every bike ever made (by Suzuki called a GS500) and can categorically say.... a 250cc bike will NOT go through a set of twisties faster than say an r6 or Striple or even GS500 in the hands of the same rider.

Cornering is not just about carrying speed in and then out. It is also a factor of suspension and sprung/unsprung weight. Center of gravity, ground clearances, overall weight vs suspension, cornering technique and rider ability.

In comparing the CBR250 to an R6, you'll see the R6 weighs 50lbs more. That's 50lbs of extra inertia the suspension would need to overcome to effect the stability of the bike mid corner. Together with better suspension the r6 is more likely to take the same corner more stable than a more bouncy CBR250. It is also thus more likely to carry its speed through the corner and be less effected by any uphill gradient changes than the 250. The heavier bike will have more momentum, in other words.

And while the r6's larger tires might not make it dive into corners as readily as the 250, the greater size contact patch will provide more grip through the corner.

Add the rider's weight of say 180lbs to 200lbs and the 100+hp stronger engine of the R6 will again be less effected and the bike will be less likely to lose speed/momentum due to up gradient changes than the 250cc CBR with its measly 21hp.

I'm not sure you actually understand the physics of a motorcycle going through a turn and the effect of tires upon that.  If you think that a larger bike's weight & momentum is a benefit to getting around a corner, well ... that's sorta the end of the discussion right there.  Yeah, it'll help it keep its speed up for a short time in an uphill situation, but beyond that ...

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Now, the CBR250 might beat the r6 in a gymkhana where time is started at entry into the first obstacle and the course has Zero straight bits, is all entirely twisty and tight as a fish's ass. But certainly not ever going to happen in the really real world.

As has been stated, no experienced rider will forego their 600cc and up bike for a 250cc, thus the 250 will only live in the realm of the learning and inexperienced. And the argument over what a 250cc could or could not do is a moot one. And those who think the 250cc will eat up other things will not change their mind - the ego needs to protect its thought.

NOW, if you want to discuss the mid size bikes vs the liter bikes through a set of twists....

I'm donno where the comparison to an R6 has come into the picture.  I was under the impression that we were talking about a sporty 250 vs. a GS500.   Yes, there comes a point where horsepower can overcome the inherent cornering speed advantage of a smaller bike, but considering the case of a GS500 vs a CBR250, a set of tight twisties isn't that point.

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Just remember, in all likelihood, this bloke on his Goldwing would still whip your ass doing Deals Gap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo

First, I'm not sure why you'd think that.  You've got no clue as to my skill level.  Yeah, he's fast.  But he's speed limited by his cornering clearance. 

And Deal's Gap is a pretty good example of a situation where a smaller, lighter bike can absolutely clean up.  You think this guy wouldn't be faster on a Ninja 250?   


Listen, I'm not advocating that a 250 is a better everyday choice than anything larger.  Hell, I'm against the OP downgrading from a GS500 to a CBR250 (even though I love the CBR) because I think that the addition of ABS isn't worth everything else he'd have to give up.  But there are definitely situations where a sporty 250 will be both faster and likely more enjoyable.  Situations outside gymkhana.  Most of us spend most of our time not anywhere near those situations, but to deny that they exist is wrong.   

Quote from: dougdoberman on May 07, 2012, 08:17:35 AM
You're coming at me with dirt bikes and 70's standards as your examples of 250's that you've ridden?  Talk to me when you've ridden a Ninja 250, or the VTR250 (THAT'S what Honda should have reintroduced instead of the CBR250), or the almighty TZ250.

I was actually riding a couple years before that.  Unfortunately, you're unlikely to ever catch up.  While I haven't owned as many bikes as you, I can just about guarantee that I've ridden many more, including pretty much everything released in the US between 1988 and about 2002.

Umm those were examples of the 250s I have owned that are comparable to the CBR we are referring to
Yes I have ridden a Ninja 250 AND the CBR we are talking about.
The RZ for example would have sh!t all over the ninja today which is why they are so collectable.
So you have raced bikes have you? I race mine up the street all the time

And if you want to play the numbers game I have in fact been riding for 34 years but did not want to sound like it was a bragging competition
Furthermore you have no fucken idea how many bikes I have ridden to make a claim like that one above. I could be employed by Susuki /Honda/Kawasaki for all you fucken know? What a dumbass claim to make when you know nothing about me?
I think I will leave it there as you are obviously a much better rider/racer/officianado/human than I am

Wow we got a resident fortune teller here able to tell us all.

Last I checked, something like 80% of motorcycle crashes occur in corners ~ I am going to surmise that a world populated with 250's might actually be more dangerous...

That is, to 'keep up' with bigger bikes I have to go faster through the turns, where the potential for loss of control is greater.

I rode a GN125 one summer after owning a VFR700, an FZR600 and a ZX1000 Ninja. That bike was so tiny and lightweight that slowing down for turns was almost optional. On the other hand, it was the ONLY way to actually keep up when riding with anyone else. So you had to ride it more recklessly or get left behind.

I've only been riding about 26 years, but my basic rule of thumb is that a proper street bike needs 60-80 rear wheel horsepower. Less than that and it just won't have enough pep when you want it to. More than is fine, but can also encourage hooliganism. At least, this has been my experience.

A few points to the OP.

1) 1500 miles of riding experience isn't very much.  ABS will probably help cover your braking mistakes and maybe even save you in a panic situation, but it's still hugely important that you continue to refine your technique through practice.  If you're over controlling the brakes, it's likely your other bike skills need refinement as well.  We all have plenty of room for improvement.

2) With more experience you'll probably become more comfortable at higher speeds, but you may find a windscreen to be helpful.  That said, some people don't like them.

3) For the riding that you're doing, less than 60 MPH, mostly urban, a 250 would be fine.  For urban commuting it would arguably be better than the GS being lighter and more agile while still having sufficient power to deal with traffic.  The issue with smaller displacement bikes is that there isn't much roll-on power in reserve at highway speeds so you're necessarily going to be using the gears a lot more.

4) I haven't had a chance to ride a CBR250 but it looks like a nice little bike.  I do have something in excess of 40k miles on a Ninja 250, including interstate travel and multi-day touring, and it's a pretty capable bike.  There's something to be said for thrashing a bike near it's limits without going at super legal speeds (much).

Interesting MO you have here dougdoberman. When someone disagrees first accuse them of not understanding, no experience, etc. Are you expecting us Aussies to bow down to the all knowing dougdoberman in obedience and quiver at your presence as you Educate us in the ways of motorcycles, physics and the ways of the world? You think "number of years with a license or riding" (assuming no breaks) means you have greater knowledge of bikes than someone with fewer years even if those years fewer are only one or two? Would you like a medal for your "riding years accomplishment"?

Tell you what, send an email to the guy on the Goldwing. Tell him to ditch that slowpoke bike he has and go for a 250cc so he can really ride fast through the Dragon and keep up (and go faster) than the sports bikes he films. Then get back to us with his answer.

And while you are out educating him on the error of his ways, shoot off some emails to the WSBK www.worldsbk.com and be sure to tell them they need to allow 250cc bikes in to show people how it is Really done. Ditto to MotoGP - cause we all know back in the day the 250cc class was actually pulling faster times than the 500 class.

Then, tell this guy on his 600 he knows not what he is doing and he needs to go for 250cc if he Really wants to ride quick on this course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6HBcdHGaKk There is another 600cc gymkhana ride of excellence but I cannot find it so this will suffice.

Seriously, dude, give it up. You are Not convincing anyone here that a 250cc will go quicker through the twists than a 500. Of course, the Out you have is good... most people will never encounter a road where the 250cc will do better through the twists BUT they do exist somewhere and denying such is wrong. What? Got an example where the 250cc bikes are blitzing everyone through the twists? I don't think so otherwise you'd have shown this mystery road already instead of your "they must exist somewhere in the universe" closing statement.

As I said, the ego will go to great lengths to Defend its thought child. You trying to convince us all here that 250s go through twists better than even GS500 is proof of that. Nope, that 22hp beast of a 250 will NOT go through twists quicker than a GS500, ER5 or CB400. Nor the quicker bikes like R6s or Daytona 675s or CBR600.

It might beat a 250 Ninja and possibly the 250 Intruder or 250 Virago. But that is all.

Michael

Quote from: MarkB on May 08, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
3) For the riding that you're doing, less than 60 MPH, mostly urban, a 250 would be fine.

What you're basically saying here is,
"250cc bikes make great scooters"



(I'm not saying I disagree.. I'm just laughing about it )

Lol 250 would be a good scooter

Quote from: cashmoves on May 04, 2012, 09:00:09 AM
im not an experienced rider or a physics phd, but i also noticed that its easy to lock up my rear wheel... could just be the old tire (bought new ones!) or is it possible that the notoriously soft front suspension makes the rear wheel abnormally light under hard braking thus making a rear skid more likely?

There can be a lot of factors that can contribute to a rear locking. I think you are on the money there and answered your own question with the soft suspension but another is skill level of the rider and newness to the GS

I actually made this exact switch last month.  I bought a 2008 GS500 last year, rode 1300 miles on it, then decided that the CBR250R ABS was what I REALLY wanted.  Sold the GS500 on Craigslist bought the CBR250R one week later.  I use the bike mostly to commute to work on a single lane highway at speeds between 50-65 and it excels at doing that.   

Pros:
- ABS - This was the biggest reason in me upgrading.  Motorcycle forums are still very anti-ABS.  I agree, proper technique is the most important thing you can learn.  But why not have a feature that can assist when you when you need it (and hopefully you never will)?   
- Fuel Injection
- Lighter weight
- Non mush suspension
- Looks (subjective, but the GS500 looks like dated poo compared to the Honda in my books)
- Gas mileage

Cons:
- Buzzier at higher speed, possibly due to single cylinder config
- Power is adequate and can get you to 90 mph, but I think the GS500 has the PERFECT amount of power for the street
- Harsher over bumps due to the harder suspension / weight

Do I have regrets making the switch?  Nope.

Quote from: jessebeetle on June 04, 1970, 09:56:38 AM....................I use the bike mostly to commute to work on a single lane highway at speeds between 50-65 and it excels at doing that.................

Watch out for oncoming traffic!

Quote from: jessebeetle on May 10, 2012, 07:23:49 AM
I actually made this exact switch last month.  I bought a 2008 GS500 last year, rode 1300 miles on it, then decided that the CBR250R ABS was what I REALLY wanted. 

ABS was the biggest reason in me upgrading.  Motorcycle forums are still very anti-ABS.  I agree, proper technique is the most important thing you can learn.  But why not have a feature that can assist when you when you need it (and hopefully you never will)?

I still can't get my head around this, and you are absolutely right. If a guy like Valentino Rossi sometimes crashes under braking, what makes you think you are ever going to be able to use your brakes properly in an emergency ? I'm not saying you're not capable of it, but keep in mind that you can still threshold brake with ABS if you want to, and in a situation where you make a mistake and brake TOO hard or the surface conditions change (wet/dry/sandy/greasy/oily/leaves/yadda yadda yadda) over the course of the distance you are braking, ABS may very well save your bacon.

Quote from: Vo0Do0 on May 04, 2012, 01:42:10 AM

Quote from: dougdoberman on May 03, 2012, 12:18:42 PM
Has someone somewhere along the way told you that if you squeeze the front brake level too hard you'll flip it right over?  I've found over the decades that this comment is one that's contributed greatly towards riders never learning how to brake properly and effectively.

If you regularly ride in the rain, the dirt, or through streets strewn with leaves, ABS can be a great benefit.

If you're locking up your rear in normal around-town driving, even if it's an emergency situation, you're doing it wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. First emergency bake situation was on a dirt bike, on dirt... too much front brake and went down.... now on the road I need to train myself to use the front brake properly because of the first experience I had.....  I still lock rear and have to adjust my braking in emergencies every now and then*, but I'm getting much better. (just do a little fishy then readjust and stop quickly)

*I'm a fairly new rider

Hello fairly new rider. It is time to master the panic stop. Deserted parking lot, lonely stretch of road, whatever.

Go out and practice rear only, slower speeds to the point of locking, then back off to a controlled stop.

Then the front.

Then both.

When you can stop consistantly without any lock or loss of control, increase speed 10mph. Get the feeling for complete control and hard braking.

No need in practising at 90 mph.

Then build on it.





Id love to try out a cbr250. Efi, honda reliability, abs. Awesome. There seem to be some naysayers.

Quote from: codajastal on May 07, 2012, 05:20:03 PM
I think I will leave it there as you are obviously a much better rider/racer/officianado/human than I am

Well, at least we agree on something.

Quote from: mister on May 08, 2012, 01:20:28 PM
Interesting MO you have here dougdoberman. When someone disagrees first accuse them of not understanding, no experience, etc. Are you expecting us Aussies to bow down to the all knowing dougdoberman in obedience and quiver at your presence as you Educate us in the ways of motorcycles, physics and the ways of the world? You think "number of years with a license or riding" (assuming no breaks) means you have greater knowledge of bikes than someone with fewer years even if those years fewer are only one or two? Would you like a medal for your "riding years accomplishment"?

Tell you what, send an email to the guy on the Goldwing. Tell him to ditch that slowpoke bike he has and go for a 250cc so he can really ride fast through the Dragon and keep up (and go faster) than the sports bikes he films. Then get back to us with his answer.

And while you are out educating him on the error of his ways, shoot off some emails to the WSBK www.worldsbk.com and be sure to tell them they need to allow 250cc bikes in to show people how it is Really done. Ditto to MotoGP - cause we all know back in the day the 250cc class was actually pulling faster times than the 500 class.

Then, tell this guy on his 600 he knows not what he is doing and he needs to go for 250cc if he Really wants to ride quick on this course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6HBcdHGaKk There is another 600cc gymkhana ride of excellence but I cannot find it so this will suffice.

Seriously, dude, give it up. You are Not convincing anyone here that a 250cc will go quicker through the twists than a 500. Of course, the Out you have is good... most people will never encounter a road where the 250cc will do better through the twists BUT they do exist somewhere and denying such is wrong. What? Got an example where the 250cc bikes are blitzing everyone through the twists? I don't think so otherwise you'd have shown this mystery road already instead of your "they must exist somewhere in the universe" closing statement.

As I said, the ego will go to great lengths to Defend its thought child. You trying to convince us all here that 250s go through twists better than even GS500 is proof of that. Nope, that 22hp beast of a 250 will NOT go through twists quicker than a GS500, ER5 or CB400. Nor the quicker bikes like R6s or Daytona 675s or CBR600.

It might beat a 250 Ninja and possibly the 250 Intruder or 250 Virago. But that is all.

Michael

Your comparison of the 250 GP bikes to the 500's is not quite the same as comparing a 250 CBR or Ninja to the GS500.  That's a bit like comparing the CBR 250 to an R6.  Something which I haven't done.

If you wanna strawman, I can do that, but there's no point to it.  You're debating arguments I've never made.

Here's some homework:

Find a handful of specs & performance stats for say, a Ninja 250R and a GS500.  (I'll even accept it being an E instead of the heavier F.)

Compare the two.

Apply your knowledge of the physics involved in making a motorcycle turn.  (Garner some, if you have none.  Actually, if you have none, you should have recused yourself from this debate long ago.)

Explain to me how a heavier bike with roughly the same P/W ratio & performance specs will 1: Get through turns faster and 2: Get to the next turn faster.

(If you are able to explain that, I'd like to enlist your help.  I own a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to unload.  I could use someone adept at selling fantasies to the uninformed.)

Quote from: SAFE-T on May 07, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
I think the consensus is that 250's need a fairly specific set of circumstances to be worth owning.

Yep.  I'd love a cbr250, but only if I had another 600cc bike for the freeway.