terry shiavos fight is over?

[Blueknyt]

Terri's lost her Cerebral Cortex and the cavity filled with spinal fluid.
The cerebral cortex can not be replaced or replenished; it can not
grow back; it can not be transplanted.

Without a cerebral cortex, an individual ceases to be an individual.

There is a total loss of coherency; the individual is rendered to a
vegetated state. There is no chance for any recovery from that state.

Terri is truly in a vegetated state and has been for 13 years.

Terri had been placed on a feeding apparatus due to her inability
to swallow voluntarily. She can not live without that feeding device;
that feeding device in the State of Florida is considered a life support
system, since the individual can not survive without it's usage.

Since Terri can not and never will regain any consciousness to
allow her to ever converse, or have any voluntary movement,
she is considered in a vegetative state.

Terri has been in this vegetative state for 13 years. Removing
her from a life support system is a decision a guardian must decide.

No-one remains on a mechanical life support system indefinitely;
if there is no chance for recovery, no chance for any coherency,
and no chance to ever have the ability to engage a voluntary
movement, then forcing a soul to be contained in a lifeless
shell of a body is more inhuman; more sacrilegious, that to
allow it to pass.

Terri's dead; let her soul rest in peace.

=============================================


the above was a cut and paste from one of many newsblog sites i looked into for more info.

this sposivly happen in 1990 yes? that was 15 years ago.  15!

Once married, health care decisions are no longer up to the parents unless legal Documents are produced and signed by the spose, MOM AND DAD HAVE NO SAY.   Doctors and a judge have determined that terri will NOT rehabilitate from her vegatative state ever.    After 15 years, i think i would tend to believe this, a fwe grunts and blowing saliva bubbles during the past 15 years Doesnt show improvment to one's condition.

i really have to wonder what kinda love it is to be put a loved one through this for 15 years.from what i have gathered its mostly the "Right to life folks" that are pushing hard and wanting to get involved legaly  along with her parrents, most of them calling Mr S. a monster and murderer.

For a book to teach compasion and forgivness, and yet push harder after 15 years of No improvment but to see that her brain is shrivaling up to nothing and say she is responding?  who here is the real monster?

15 bloody years? what a living hell if her brain was even 1/2 working in cognitive thought.  the grunts and repsonses were probly maddness insuing and what was left of her brain turning primal.

even if i belived at first she could be rehabed, after 2 years of NON coma vegitative state i would have to agree that recovery isnt likly and growing slimer every day.  Now tell me, what's thier excuse for the other 13 years of this (and i dont use these words often) Sinfuly UN christianly uncompasionate treatment of a human being not to mention a loved one.

now i cant say the husband was any better by allowing it this long either so ilump his ass in there too.

there isnt anymore i can say, most damn  the husband for wanting to end it. i damn him for not doing it at a reasonable time. there is nothing else i can say at this moment.

[cummuterguy]

actually, the husband spent the first few years flying terry to specialists around the country trying everything he can to see if she would be re-coverable. he didn't stop at the first opinion, nor the second or third.
It was only once he was told by pretty much every top expert  that there was no chance, that he finally considered and then decided to let her go.

Then steps in Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad decided that their child must live, (irregardless of the fact that Terry had discussed with her husband never wanting to be left on life support) they decided to fight his decision, and for all these years, the husband has been fighting for his wife's right to die JUST AS SHE HAD WISHED.

He has been offered MILLIONS from the parents and supporters of the parents to sign away his guardian rights, or divorce his wife. He has turned all those offers down, and taken many a beating in the press, simply because he wants to respect her wishes. I say that the man truly loved his wife.

And... so what if he found an understanding woman for companionship, if you were to die, (or become the living dead, like terry) would you ask your spouse to go it alone for the rest of their lives? I think those that would say yes are incredibly selfish.

I think Gov. Bush should not have intervened last year once the parents had finally lost their last possible appeal, and likewise the Dept of Children and Families (certainly under the persuasion of Jeb Bush) should just butt out as well.

[jordanearl]

i heard something about an insurance policy the other day, anyone else heard anything bout that

[cummuterguy]

apparently there is a large ins. amount he will collect. Big deal... he has bankrupted himself for 15 years, and turned down over 10 million dollars, just trying to do the right thing.

the 'pro-LIFE group' waves a stupid ins. policy around and try to use that as "his motive to kill her" how incredibly stupid...

[yamahonkawazuki]

how do we know what her wishes were, there was no living will, but yeah, i cansee all of your points on this :dunno:

[cummuterguy]

no, there is no living will. But apparently the subject came up in a converstaion between terry and her husband long before her heart attack.
I understand that that is not a legal position for him, but as the next of kin, his decisions should be final anyway. just my 2cents

[cummuterguy]

To get other people up to speed... here is a brief overview of the case (a lot of details are left out)
http://channelevents.aol.com/newsflash/redirect/news.html?url=http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0503/timeline.schiavo.case/frameset.exclude.html&w=660&h=430

[Laura]

She's a vegetable. I don't care if her parents AND her husband wanted her to stay hooked up. The whole thing is absolutely disgusting and I can't understand why anyone would want her to stay hooked up like this.

[cernunos]

Definitely something to think about. I remember years ago when I had a horrible auto accident where I was ejected from the vehicle and then the car rolled over me. I was in a stryker frame for more than a month till I was stable enough for them to open up my back for access to my spine. I got to where all I wanted to do was sleep because it was driving me crazy what with being unable to move about, having people feed me, wash me etc. I recall thinking that if I were to ever be totally immobilized without the ability to even communicate I would rather be let go. Definitely something to think about...does everyone here have a living will? Because G Bush has decided that in these situations it is better to err on the side of life. Oh well, I love my bike and I love this forum.

C.......

[yamahonkawazuki]

yup its over...

[nathanael]

one could argue that Tom Delay, by speaking out for the rights of the brain dead, is just looking after his constituency.

Man, you cracked me up for a good five minutes with that one! :lol:

[Michael]

Lot of issues here, and a lot of emotion.  Can't help that.  We are humans and emotions are part of us.  We just need to be careful they don't make our decisions for us.
A few things.
Joerocker, I live in a country where everyone gets the health care they need regardless of their ability to pay.  Our tax burden, while more than we might like, is nowhere near the 70% you quoted.  You really need to get your facts straight ( :lol: ) before leaping in like that.
If you've read "The House of God" you'll have come across the concept of the GOMER/GOMERE.  While most people think of this as simply meaning "Get Out of My Emergency Room", the definition is "Someone who has lost that which makes them human".  While strictly speaking a human is the combination of mind and body (and spirit if you want to break it down like that), once the mind goes the shell that's left can't identify itself as human so probably isn't.  (Yes, I recognise that is an opinion, not an established fact).  Many people look at such beings as of no use to society, a financial drain and an emotional burden.  I disagree.  While I am not in favour of "a beating heart at all costs", and work in a field where our primary aim is to correct the correctable, I think these used-to-be people do serve a function in society.  They stimulate debates such as this, to make us examine the issues and come to some (hopefully rational) concensus.  They remind us of our own mortality and help us not to waste the life we have because it could all be over in a second.  And they provide us with opportunity to exercise our humanity and our compassion.

[SuZuki10]

I just don't think you would ever find a person who would say, "Yes, If I were to ever become totally incapable of taking care of myself I would want others to do it for me for over a decade.  Shove a feed tube down my throat, wash me, keep me breathing, and speak to me even if I don;t have any clue what is going on."  This woman is at the point of no return mentally, physically, etc.  It's just sad that they would make this man deal with all of this instead of letting her rest in peace and allowing all of her loved ones to move on, which by now they deserve to do.

[Anonymous]

Michael,

First of all, it seems from what I can find that your health system is a lot like ours.  Both public and private money paying for the costs.  You have medicare for the elderly and it looks like a form of medicaid for the poor.  Your country is looking to go "country wide" with public healthcare in 2008.  Couldn't find whether that meant "free" for all or just standardized.  AND there are plenty saying that the idea WASN'T EVER to have FREE healthcare for everyone.  In fact there is a lot of talk about "means testing" the elderly before giving them full medicare coverage.

Medical care costs money...  A LOT of money.  You CANNOT provide EVERYONE with FREE healthcare without a HUGE tax.  There mare MANY european countries with tax rates over 50% and few as high as 70%.  Remember, someone has to pay for ALL FREE services.  The taxpayers pay.  All you're doing is letting the government act as a HUGE insurer and through taxes you "pay" premiums.  So, it's really not free is it?  All you're doing is providing something free for deadbeats who don't contribute.  If you do go "free for all" then your taxes WILL go up or you'll run a huge defecit.

Oh, and when people need the BEST in the latest care and treatment, where do they go?  It sure isn't Tasmania.

And the guy talking about all the poor dying/starving in the streets.  No.  Doesn't happen.  A few of the more severely mentally disabled homeless who don't have enough sense to come out of the cold may.  Where did you say that was?  Minnesota?  See, no sense.  Homeless and staying in Minnesota?  Nuts!  There are enough programs available so nobody has to die.  Shelters go unfilled because the homeless refure to use them.  Did you know that 95% of the homeless are either retarded or crazy?  The other 5% are temporary or choose that life.  In the days of old they were locked up.  But now they have "rights" which means they sleep/pee/deficate in your doorway.  Irregardless of "our" rights.

Besides, I agreed in like the second post here that she should be allowed to die in dignity.

It's funny though...  The same people who fight so hard (like in the ghey marriage thread) for peoples rights, are the same people who will fight to "kill" a severely disabled woman by starvation or kill a defenseless fetus through abortion.  I gues only a select few (minorities and gays) get their rights protected by you?

BTW, before you start screaming, I too believe in euthanizing the terminally ill and aborting the defective and unwanted.  I just find it funny how YOU can see it the same way.  Don't people who can't communicate have rights?  I mean it's just hearsay that she told her husband she wanted to die.  And a "survivable" fetus, don't they get any rights?  Who get to have rights? When exactly are these rights given?

[Dom]

The same people who fight so hard (like in the ghey marriage thread) for peoples rights

Like you?  You were fighting "so hard" for what you feel is your right to not be offended.

[indestructibleman]

it should also be pointed out that Terry has been kept alive through money from Medicaid and a Malpractice suit.

under proposed tort reform legislation, her family might not have been able to press that lawsuit.  there are also republican efforts to cut Medicaid.

so, while the republlicans in congress are willing to use her to distract the public attention away from the various administration media propaganda scandals, the 2nd anniversary of the invasion of Iraq and Tom Delay's perpetual ethics problems, their policies would have bankrupted her family years ago.

hypocrisy is too nice a word.

cheers,
will

[SuZuki10]

That's right. AND, The people voting to "err on the side of life" are also the same people who voted that these medical expenses are not going to be paid for with government money. This woman is being used as an object and an example and not being seen as a person.  
I don't feel that she has any rights anymore because she's barely a living human being.  That feeding tube is the only thing keeping her alive which makes her completely dependent on it.  The only thing I can see that we should all take from this case is to make sure you have a living will.

[Blueknyt]

what rights does a sack of meat really Need honnestly?

first and formost i would say the right to the best diagnostics to make sure the candle went out.

Secondly, the right to some treatments to posibly reverse their current  state, and to see If this person is going to have a life WORTH living. say 3 strikes in 3 years, no change or REASONABLE improvment its time to move on.

Thirdly the right to Die with dignity without suffering.


Now, intruth this is my own feelings, but once i cant interact with the ones i care about in a reasonably Human mannor i dont want to be around. No way i could handle being the next chris reeves, or steven Hawkins (sp?)

yeah, im greedy that way. If my mellon is that messed up then mix me a mickey and let me slip off.

[Michael]

Michael,

First of all, it seems from what I can find that your health system is a lot like ours.  Both public and private money paying for the costs.  You have medicare for the elderly and it looks like a form of medicaid for the poor.  Your country is looking to go "country wide" with public healthcare in 2008.  

Oh, and when people need the BEST in the latest care and treatment, where do they go?  It sure isn't Tasmania.

I don't know what you've been reading, but it's wrong.  Medicare in Australia is not just for the elderly.  It pays for health care for all citizens, permanent resident, and visitors from countries with which we have a reciprocal agreement.  The USA is NOT one of those countries.  The system of private hospitals is funded by people's insurance, and merely provides a choice of environment. The services provided by government and private systems are similar.  The public hospitals are payed for by state taxes, although the states get some funding from the federal government.  Visits to your family doctor, specialists rooms, and outpatient tests (labs and xrays) are payed for by Medicare.

As for the quality of care here compared with the USA.  People go to the US for their care not because it's any better, but because yours is a land where anything is for sale if you have enough money.  People can buy what they want regardless of the need or appropriateness of it.  In the last year I have had the pleasure of working with some fine American Emergency Physicians from numerous parts of your country, who have said in so many words that the standard of care here in TASMANIA is easily as good as that in equivalent establishments back home.  Sure, you have some of the most famous centres in the world, but please don't make the mistake of confusing notoriety with quality.

[William M]

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:53 am    
>I have 2 words people.. LIVING WILL Don't let this happen to you.


I totally agree. At some point this decision could effect all of us. To clarify what you would want to happen, how and when, not only clarifies your wishes, but  makes things clearer for those who have to decide in your behalf.

Don't think it could happen to you? I had to decide for BOTH my parents. Fortunetly they both had living wills. Its a very tough thing to watch someone die, but there is a point when keeping someone alive is just plain cruel. Its a horrible decision in the best of circumstances. Its unbelievably so if you are unclear as to what the person's wishes.

So GET A LIVING WILL.  Today. I don't care how old you are.