another "bike won't start" thread UPDATED

[12thmonkey]

i'll try and make this short. i went out to start my bike yesterday (after no previous starting problems), and it wouldn't start. Headlight, oil and neutral lights came on...but when i turned the key, it just made one hard click. i tried for a few more minutes with the same results. Then i tried to pop the clutch to start it (not sure if i did this correctly - just did what i would do in a car)...that didn't do anything either. Thinking my battery was dead, i was able to catch a ride to work. Last night i charged the battery all night. My charger says the battery is good (however reliable that reading is), and i was able to get a good charge. i put it back in the bike this morning, and had the exact same problem. i've read several of the threads about starting problems, and feel like mine is slightly different...so i thought i'd post it.

My problem doesn't seem to be the battery. The battery didn't act any different after a night of charging, and many attempts at turning it over didn't seem to weaken it any. It also doesn't seem to be any of the variety of switches...because i can get the starter to try and turn. It seems like the starter. It clicks like it wants to try, but doesn't actually turn. Its not like when you aren't getting gas/ignition, where the starter turns and turns but the engine won't fire. It just clicks.

i had to go to work immediately after it didn't start, so i wasn't able to try shorting the starter relay, or the other appropriate tests. Has anyone had this happen before? i'm planning on getting an ohm meter today on my way home...is there anything else i should get?

i'll definitely check out what i can...i just wanted to ask in case someone knew what i should try to do, or should not waste my time with. Honestly any input would be appreciated...as i don't have a ton of time to work on it right now...but really need my only source of transportation to be capable again of transporting me.

Thanks in advance.

[vtlion]

could be your starter.

to completely rule out the battery, you could try a jump

[12thmonkey]

As in jumping it off another battery?

i remember (i think Kerry) saying you could jump it off a car battery, as long as the car wasn't running...

[scratch]

I think the battery has dropped a cell.  It will show fully charged on the other five cells.

[12thmonkey]

I think the battery has dropped a cell.  It will show fully charged on the other five cells.

How do i test that?

Would that give the starter enough juice to "click" but not actually turn?

[Kerry]

I'm interested to hear the results of your "shorting the starter relay" test.  If the starter turns over, you'll know whether the battery is OK.

I assume you're planning something like the lunch-time parking lot test in this old post?

[12thmonkey]

I assume you're planning something like the lunch-time parking lot test in this old post?

Yeah, that informative tutorial was already bookmarked as my guide. 

i'll let you know.

[12thmonkey]

UPDATE:

1. Tried jumping it off my car battery: same symptoms.
2. Tried shorting out the relay: didn't turn the engine - just a spark (didn't blow the fuse)
3. Tried the Clymer/Kerry starter relay test: i didn't know which setting to have the ohm meter on, so i tried it on all of them , and got the same reading: 0L

So, from the looks of things, my starter relay is dead. Is that the type of thing that'll just die one night without warning? i'm decently mechanically-inclined, but electrical stuff often goes over my head. Am i interpreting this all correctly? i really need to get my bike up and running. Do you think i should just try and pick up a new starter relay? Is that the type of thing i can get at a stealership?

[Kerry]

Not so fast....  I have some questions.  (BTW -- Since you're only expecting 3 to 5 ohms, set the ohmmeter to the lowest setting that's greater than 5.)

1) Your feedback item #2 is a bit worrisome.  If you got a spark when you shorted the relay, that means "juice" is getting from the battery to and through the starter motor ... unless there is a short somewhere

else.    If the starter motor is getting power, either there's not enough to turn it over, or the motor can't turn because a) something is internally wrong with it, or b) something mechanical is jamming it.  

2) At what point did you get all of the '0' resistance readings?  While performing the test in Step 6 of my old post?  (I assume you had a friend helping you, so that one of you could take the readings while the other one pulled in the clutch and hit the Start button?)

3) On most ohmmeters,  a displayed '0' usually means just that -- NO resistance.  Are you sure you're not hearing a "click" from the relay when you press the Start button?

4) According to the documentation for the meter, what is displayed on the screen for an "infinite" resistance?  Mine shows the number '1' way off on the left, but all meters are not the same.

5) Hmmm ... I should verify:  Are you using a digital meter (with an electronic display) or an analog meter (with a needle that moves past a marked scale)?[/list]

Bottom line: Don't start replacing things until you know what's broken.  If the relay clicks and gets a 3-5 ohm reading, then replacing it will be a waste of time & money.  If it doesn't click, etc. then hook up the car battery and try the test again.  That will eliminate the possibility of your bike battery simply being low.

If the relay checks out then it's time to call in starwalt to help you diagnose the starter motor subsystem.

[scratch]

I think the battery has dropped a cell.  It will show fully charged on the other five cells.

How do i test that?

Voltmeter will only read 10volts across the battery terminals.

[12thmonkey]

Not so fast....  I have some questions.  (BTW -- Since you're only expecting 3 to 5 ohms, set the ohmmeter to the lowest setting that's greater than 5.)

i tried the multimeter again this morning. But i still didn't really know what to set it to. It has the following settings: 200, 2k, 20k, 200k, 2m. i tried 200 and 2k and got a 0L reading, which according to the manual means either no resistance or an overrange indication. Then i set it to 2m and was getting a floating range between ~1 - ~6 before my wife pushed the starter button. When she did push the button, it jumped up as high as ~8...but was bouncing around the whole time.

1) Your feedback item #2 is a bit worrisome.  If you got a spark when you shorted the relay, that means "juice" is getting from the battery to and through the starter motor ... unless there is a short somewhere else.    If the starter motor is getting power, either there's not enough to turn it over, or the motor can't turn because a) something is internally wrong with it, or b) something mechanical is jamming it.  

So, if the relay is actually getting juice to it, it's still good?

2) At what point did you get all of the '0' resistance readings?  While performing the test in Step 6 of my old post?  (I assume you had a friend helping you, so that one of you could take the readings while the other one pulled in the clutch and hit the Start button?)

Yes. My wife was kind enough to pull the clutch and press the start button. i was manning the multimeter.

3) On most ohmmeters,  a displayed '0' usually means just that -- NO resistance.  Are you sure you're not hearing a "click" from the relay when you press the Start button?

It definitely clicked each time the starter was pressed...but at everything other than 2m (this morning) i got either a 0 or an overrange reading. i'm thinking it was overrange on all other settings?

4) According to the documentation for the meter, what is displayed on the screen for an "infinite" resistance?  Mine shows the number '1' way off on the left, but all meters are not the same.

i went through the whole manual and didn't find anything for "infinite" resistance...unless that's the same as overrange?

5) Hmmm ... I should verify:  Are you using a digital meter (with an electronic display) or an analog meter (with a needle that moves past a marked scale)?

Digital multimeter from Radio Shack.

Bottom line: Don't start replacing things until you know what's broken.  If the relay clicks and gets a 3-5 ohm reading, then replacing it will be a waste of time & money.  If it doesn't click, etc. then hook up the car battery and try the test again.  That will eliminate the possibility of your bike battery simply being low.

If the relay checks out then it's time to call in starwalt to help you diagnose the starter motor subsystem.

i'll try the resistance test hooked up to the car battery when i get home. If i still get a click and a bouncing ohm reading with the car battery, it's the starter that's the likely culprit? Just for the sake of my sanity (i don't know a ton about electronics, and i hate conducting a test when i don't really know what i'm actually testing ) what do the resistance readings actually mean?

Thanks for all your help guys...especially Kerry! Hopefully i can get this figured out this weekend. If it's the starter, am i most likely looking at replacing...or dissecting and repairing?

[Kerry]

I wonder if the "L" part of the "0L" reading indicates "overrange"?  (I'll use that term instead of "infinity" for the rest of our discussion.)

You can test it by touching the probes to each other, which should give you a zero (or near-zero) reading.  Does it display an "L"?

Whether the relay is OK or not, the starter motor should try to turn when you "jump" the two threaded studs on the relay (normally covered by red and black "hoods").  You don't need to push the Start button or even turn the ignition ON (!) for this to happen; jumping those studs creates a direct connection from the battery to the motor.  You want to use something hefty like a screwdriver as the "jumper"; a length of 18-gauge wire would likely melt.

If the motor doesn't turn when you jump the studs, you have bigger problems than a possibly bad starter relay. 

But, to pull things together a little, a GOOD starter relay should...

1) ... have an "overrange" resistance reading between the studs when the start button is NOT pressed.

2) ...

click when you push the starter button.  (Assuming the ignition is ON, the clutch lever is pulled in, etc.)

3) ... have a resistance reading of 3 to 5 ohms between the studs when the starter button is pushed in.  Set the meter to the 200 ohm range, and BE SURE to disconnect the black wire from its stud (so power won't go to the starter motor).[/list]

The click happens when the relay tries to connect the two studs together via an internal circuit.  That internal circuit is what exhibits the 3-5 ohms of resistance (if it's in good shape).

[12thmonkey]

You can test it by touching the probes to each other, which should give you a zero (or near-zero) reading.  Does it display an "L"?

Yes.

Whether the relay is OK or not, the starter motor should try to turn when you "jump" the two threaded studs on the relay (normally covered by red and black "hoods").  You don't need to push the Start button or even turn the ignition ON (!) for this to happen; jumping those studs creates a direct connection from the battery to the motor.  You want to use something hefty like a screwdriver as the "jumper"; a length of 18-gauge wire would likely melt.

i used a beefy screwdriver both times i tried it. It was a pretty big spark (that's why i was worried i blew a fuse)...but nothing actually turned. i'll try again when i get home.

If the motor doesn't turn when you jump the studs, you have bigger problems than a possibly bad starter relay. 

Like what???  (that makes me scared to ask)


i'll try again when i get home with the multimeter set to 200 (not 200k, right?). But, i'm pretty sure when i tried it at that setting, i got 0L (which could mean no resistance, or too much) when just touching the posts, and the same with the starter button pressed. i'll try again to make that 100% certainty. If those are the actual readings, any idea what could be the problem?

[LimaXray]

I'm pretty sure on my multimeter 0L means no resistance, aka short circuit.  Try doing a continuity test, it will either be labeled as 'cont' or have a little sound wave picture.  When you touch the probes together it should beep.  Do the same check Kerry had you doing with it set to continuity, and if it beeps, you have a short somewhere.

[pres589]

OL is "Out of Limit" and indicates that the resistance you are measuring is greater than the range you've selected.  "Nice" meters from Fluke, ect, usually have a function called Autoranging so this doesn't happen.  Sometimes you don't want autoranging but that's for another discussion.

[Kerry]

You can test it by touching the probes to each other, which should give you a zero (or near-zero) reading.  Does it display an "L"?

Yes.

I think we have a meter-related problem.  I looked through the PDF version of the manual, and it says:

Note: If there is no resistance connected across the test leads [KJB: in other words, they're not touching anything] or the measured value exceeds the range you set, 0L appears [...].  This is normal.

Personally, I think 0L is 7-segment shorthand for "OverLoad" [EDIT: "Out-of-Limit" sounds even better!] and that an actual resistance of zero (probes touched together) should display 0 without the L. 

Let's do a few meter tests:

1) Set it to

DCV 20V and touch the probes across the bike's battery terminals.  Do you get a reasonable value?  (This will tell us whether the probes are properly connected to the internal meter circuitry AND give us some idea about your battery.)

2) Set it to OHM 2M and touch the probes with your thumbs - one thumb per probe  .  My meter shows about 1.500 when I do this (meaning 1.5 Meg-ohms or 1,500,000 ohms).

3) Do you have a toaster or an iron?  First, set the meter to OHM 200.  Then unplug the toaster/iron, turn it "on", and measure the resistance across the blades of the plug at the end of the power cord.  You should get a non-zero but fairly small number.  If you get an 0L reading, click the meter up to the next range.  (I'm trying to think of something that will give a reading in the less-than-200-ohm range, so we can test that range directly.)[/list]

Let us know your results!

If the motor doesn't turn when you jump the studs, you have bigger problems than a possibly bad starter relay. 

Like what???  (that makes me scared to ask)

I hinted at this before - the motor itself could be messed up, or there could be something mechanically preventing it from turning.  This is where I mentioned getting starwalt's help....

[12thmonkey]

Let's do a few meter tests:

1) Set it to DCV 20V and touch the probes across the bike's battery terminals.  Do you get a reasonable value?  (This will tell us whether the probes are properly connected to the internal meter circuitry AND give us some idea about your battery.)

i'll have to check this when i get home.

2) Set it to OHM 2M and touch the probes with your thumbs - one thumb per probe  .  My meter shows about 1.500 when I do this (meaning 1.5 Meg-ohms or 1,500,000 ohms).

i tried that one. Didn't realize i had so many ohms in my bare hands! Sorry...lame... If i press a thumb to each probe, it flashes a quick number (usually between 1.400 and 1.800) and then flashes back to 0, where it stays. If i pinch each probe between my thumb and forefinger, it bounces around between 1.600 and 1.800.

3) Do you have a toaster or an iron?  First, set the meter to OHM 200.  Then unplug the toaster/iron, turn it "on", and measure the resistance across the blades of the plug at the end of the power cord.  You should get a non-zero but fairly small number.  If you get an 0L reading, click the meter up to the next range.  (I'm trying to think of something that will give a reading in the less-than-200-ohm range, so we can test that range directly.)

i hooked it up to our big, commercial 4-slice toaster here at work. It didn't do anything till i turned it on...then it bounced all over the place - from negative numbers to triple digit numbers. But it never even stayed within a consistent range. Is all this bouncing around normal for one of these guys? i haven't touched anything that gave me a steady reading. And on the bike this morning before my wife hit the starter button, when the probes where just on the contacts on the relay, it was bouncing around pretty erratically too.

I hinted at this before - the motor itself could be messed up, or there could be something mechanically preventing it from turning.  This is where I mentioned getting starwalt's help....

Ohhhh...that's no good.

[Kerry]

1) Fair enough

2) Sounds like that range is working fine on the meter, at least.  Mine "bounces" a bit here too, but that's understandable since we're not metal and the connection isn't soldered or anything. 

3) Sorry - I should have warned you that the resistance on a toaster (or a light bulb, or anything that is designed to heat up because of its low resistance) will tend to change as current is applied.         Still, that much "bouncing around" is weird.  Your reply reminded me that WE have a (2-slot) toaster here at work, so I just now tested it.  The readings started around 34 ohms and dropped steadily by about .2 and then .1 until it stabilized at about 23 ohms.  (At least I guessed right about the low resistance range!)

-----

So far I'm reasonably sure that at least one resistance-measuring range on your meter is working OK (OHM 2M).  And we know that the OHM 200 range isn't totally dead ... but we don't know whether we can really trust it yet.

[12thmonkey]

Should i just go back to Radio Shack and swap it out? i mean, i just bought it yesterday...if it's questionable, maybe i should just exchange it. i'd hate to be boggled and running inconclusive tests cause of a funky meter.

[Kerry]

Should i just go back to Radio Shack and swap it out?

It's worth a try.  Since it's Radio Shack, they should be able to test the meter against a few resistors with known ratings.  That way they either can see for themselves that it doesn't work, or show you that it definitely does.

If you do get an enterprising clerk that is willing to run a couple of tests on the old meter, and it turns out to be "dodgy", have them test the replacement meter too.