New Rider First Bike Some Concerns & Questions

[adam]

Hello,

I recently bought a bike off of ebay and did some work on it and got it to turn.  The only problem now is that I am a new rider, I have taken my classes and got the license.  But it seems like I am having a hard time learning smooth transitions of changing gears, going up and down.  Because of this, I have been worried about taking it out in actual traffic, please advice.  Some quesitons I have and I hope to find some answers here.

1)  When gearing up, I let go of the throttle, squeeze the clutch and lift gear up once and start releasing the clutch and then start rolling on the throttle.

2)  When gearing down, I just squeeze the throttle and go down simultaneously.

3)  I always have a hard time stopping, if I am in a high gear, do I have to come down all the way to the 1st gear or can I just stop with my breaks and not worry about gearing down all the way?

4)  I am confused as to what Prime is on the bike, it seems like the bike starts and runs only when the choke is on and the fuel is set to prime and not on.  Is this how it is supposed to be? 

Yes, I know my questions are basic but I would like to understand them completely before I actually try riding on a street.  All advices are appreciated!

[hmmmnz]

concrats on the bike
1. your just about right on that one. as your pulling in the clutch let of the throttle. dont let off the trottle and the pull in the clutch as 2 seperate movements. its just one.
2. learn to let off the trottle, pull in the clutch then down shift, get that smooth before you try and learn to blip the throttle.
3, come down with the gears, start slowing up well before you have to stop, if you just use you brakes you'll be sitting at the light trying to get from 5th all the way back down to 1st before you can take off, try to use your gears as much as possible to control your speed.
4. prime. is where the gas comes directly from the tank into the float bowls, with the help of gravity. as opposed to reserve or run witch uses the vacume to pull the gas down, only use prime if you have drained your bowls and need to refill them, or if you have been on a very long ride and there isn't enough gas getting to the carbs.

good luck

[Chuck]

3) I don't engage the clutch in every gear when coming to a stop.  I think that would seriously damage my stopping ability.  I do, however, click down the transmission so that I'm in a good gear for the speed I'm going, in case I may need to take off in a hurry.  For example, let's say I'm going 60mph in 6th gear.  While I'm braking, with the clutch disengaged, I'll click down to 5th when I reach 50, 4th at 40, 3rd at 30, etc...

You definitely don't want to be stopped in 5th gear.  You'll have to rock the bike or feather the clutch to encourage it to go down to 4th and 3rd.  (3-2-1 can be done while stopped, in my experience.)

[ryusan]

For example, let's say I'm going 60mph in 6th gear.  While I'm braking, with the clutch disengaged, I'll click down to 5th when I reach 50, 4th at 40, 3rd at 30, etc...

Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand.  Do you mean you downshift without the clutch? or are you holding the clutch in and downshifting without releasing the clutch in between shifts?

[Mitch]

Downshift without releasing the clutch, you hold it in the whole time.  You're basicly making your self able to drop the clutch and go if nessary.

[oramac]

Mitch, I don't agree with your holding in the clutch.  When you downshift, release the clutch and let the engine help with braking.  Otherwise you end up with hotter brakes (and possible rotor warping in certain conditions), and quicker brake wear.

You're basicly making your self able to drop the clutch and go if nessary.

If you do that in the wrong RPM range, you could lug your engine or worse than that, lose control when you slow down too fast from sudden engine braking.

All around bad idea.  imho 

[Kerry]

I'm with Chuck.  If "engage every gear" is the only method one knows ... one is gonna find themselves hosed sooner or later.  Stuck at a stop in too high of a gear, or worse - unable to take evasive action after having to scrub off speed fast in a traffic situation.  I guess it's a fine method if you always have the luxury of stopping at your leisure (which is when I use it) ...  but "stuff" happens.

I don't recommend riding your brakes down a miles-long hill, but stops aren't generally prolonged enough to risk overheating the brake components.  I'll grant the "quicker brake wear", but reducing speed is what brakes are for.

How many folks who drive cars with a manual transmission "take it down through the gears" every time they stop, or slow for a turn?

[NightRyder]

How many folks who drive cars with a manual transmission "take it down through the gears" every time they stop, or slow for a turn?

Er, sometimes I do. Usually I don't if it is 55 to 0. I will use 2nd to slow once I get down there though, that way I can keep going if I need to. Otherwise I have to hit first, which is really tall(I think that's right) and useless unless I'm stopped.

As for the bike, I try to follow the same idea, but usually go all the way to 1st, then either leave it there, or go back up.. (yea.. I don't really remember which gear I am in.)

[che mike]

+1 with kerry, brakes are made for stopping. i'd rather replace pads (and even rotors) than rebuild the engine.

on a leisurly stop, the brakes are in no danger of overheating since they're not being taxed heavily. on a hard stop, i'd rather focus my attention on modulating the brakes and not on matching revs.

besides, engine braking = using rear brake. you have finer control over the rear wheel brakes than with engine braking. and each time you shift you change the amount of engine braking you're getting.

as for being smooth, it takes practice! keep in mind that motorcycle clutches are wet, and are made for slipping. not like those on cars. use clutch slip liberally to help you be smooth. when starting from stop i slip the clutch for a second or two, and on downshifts especially i slip the clutch for a bit to make sure i'm coming into the correct gear.

practice practice practice, and slip the clutch.

[Kasumi]

For normal road riding its fine to click down a few gears at a time so long as your not doing it in a way where you release the clutch and the back wheel locks or you get a huge decrease in speed as the engine braking slows you down fast.

When im on the track i always work up through the gears without the clutch but thats because i have a quickshifter. On the downshift i always engage in each gear to make sure i have maximum braking (using engine as well as brakes) If you disengage and coast you are not utilising engine braking and are in danger of locking your wheels. Especially as you get bikes with more power. Performance bikes shouldn't be knocked down several gears at once as they will probably lock up and cause a skid if you don't release the clutch just perfect.

[Chuck]

When you downshift, release the clutch and let the engine help with braking. 

Your brakes don't need help.

[Chuck]

Downshift without releasing the clutch, you hold it in the whole time.  You're basicly making your self able to drop the clutch and go if nessary.

That's it. 

[LimaXray]

I kinda do a mix of the two... if I'm coming to a more gradual stop, or coming to a stop that I may or may not have to really stop (like a light that just turned green and there are cars in front of me that haven't started moving yet) , I brake with the front and rear brakes and downshift and release the clutch for each gear.  My logic for this is it ensures I'm always in the gear I want to be in if I ever need to accelarate.  (I never know what gear I'm in, I just make sure it is in the power band at all times, so saying 5th for 50, 4th for 40 so on doesn't work for me)  I also look at is as if you click all the way down to first gear, then decide you need to go quickly and just drop the cluch out of panic at 50MPH you'll lock up the rear wheel and possibly crash.

On the other hand, if I'm coming to a stop that I know I'm gonna have to stop, I pull in and hold the cluch and click down through all the gears as I brake. 

When I'm just controlling my speed, like going down a mountain, I only engine brake by putting it in a gear or 2 lower then I normally woud for that speed. 

[hmmmnz]

this guy is only just learning to ride. dont start him off with bad habbits straight off.
use all your gears to slow you down. dont double shift. you shouldnt be going that fast that you require to do that. 
always use your clutch.
when you have mastered all those rules then you can do what ever you want, at least you have some where decent to start from.

[scratch]

MSF will teach you those things! 

[Egaeus]

MSF will teach you those things! 

Yes, and the MSF never taught me to engine brake.  The brakes are much stronger than the engine. 

[ryusan]

this guy is only just learning to ride. dont start him off with bad habbits straight off.

I agree.  I'm a noob myself but feel that it would be dangerous to coast with the clutch in.  But what do I know?

[Dorianfes]

as for being smooth, it takes practice! keep in mind that motorcycle clutches are wet, and are made for slipping. not like those on cars. use clutch slip liberally to help you be smooth. when starting from stop i slip the clutch for a second or two, and on downshifts especially i slip the clutch for a bit to make sure i'm coming into the correct gear.

practice practice practice, and slip the clutch.

What exactly do u mean by "slip the clutch"? 

[che mike]

What exactly do u mean by "slip the clutch"? 

this is what i mean:
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2950&SearchTerms=clutch

long post to follow, but you asked

"
I'd just like to chime in and say that sometimes having learned how to drive a manual transmission makes it HARDER to learn how to ride a bike (properly, at least)

I was very good with a manual transmission (in a car) before I started riding motorcycles. I learned on a manual transmission. I had several jobs where I had to drive manual transmissions, and I racked up well over 200,000 miles (a significant amount of which was in heavy city driving) on various manual transmission vehicles.

The problem I had was that when I leanred how to drive, I was taught not to "slip the clutch". It was drilled into my head that it would wear the clutch out. I was very good at shfting smoothly but keeping the clutch in the "friction zone" for the least possible amount of time every time I shifted.

That may be well and good for cars, which have dry clutches and flywheels to keep the engine spinning, but on a motorcycle, that uses a wet clutch (to minimze wear) and most bikes don't have a flywheel, it doesn't work very well.

I actually did fine with my starts in my first MSF class, but I had a real problem with low speed manuevers, and taking off on hills.

My original MSF instructor didn't do a very good job in teaching me how to propely use the friction zone...

I really didn't learn how to use the friction zone until was well into my MSF instructor's course.

When I teach classes now, I will often ask students if they've learned how to drive a manual transmission, and if they were taught not to "slip the clutch". I would say that out of the students with manual experience probably 1/3 say they were taught not to do this.

Although the basic mechanics are the same, the technique for shifting a motorcycle is different... there are many low-speed manuevers (parking lots come to mind) where you really must use the friction zone to be smooth and in-control. You actually need to "ride the clutch" during the manuever to keep the engine more in it's power band and to be smooth.

One technique that I've started using is "the count":

As you ease the clutch out, you count. Each number represents how much you are squeezing the clutch. 1 being completely squeezed, 5 being completely released. A "normal" start may be something like (okay, maybe a little exaggerated):

1 - 2 - 3 - 2.5 - 2.75 - 2.75 - 3 - 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 5

As you can see, you ease out to 3, and maybe detect that the engine is lugging slightly, so you squeeze in a little, then ease slowly out as the bike builds up speed. What it sounds like you're doing is when you detect the engine lugging, you're releasing the clutch... which causes the bike to die. Rolling on the throttle *might* help a little, but you should be able to get a bike rolling with almost no throttle... I would focus on getting the clutch control down first, then add throttle in as you feel more in control.
"

(the last few sentences are replying to a previous poster who was having troubles stalling from a start)

and a follwup post:


"
I didn't know you were a Rider/Coach, Tom. Congratulations!

This was a wonderful way to show your clutch lever usage:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 2 - 3 - 2.5 - 2.75 - 2.75 - 3 - 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A NORMAL shift should be, in my opinion, more like:
1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 5

The hesitation being when you feel the friction zone just starting to bite.

If when I'm at '3' I find that somehow I am in the wrong gear, then it would be more like:

1 - 2 - 3 - 1

followed by a double-up or double-down shift to get the right gear in place and then:

1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 5

Nice educational tool, Tom!

What I especially liked about your post was the way you made sure to explain that it was *your* advice and not that of the MSF and not you speaking for the MSF. Having an MSF certification, as we both know, does not make a person all knowlegable but assures that he/she has the fundamentals down pat. You done good!
"

[hmmmnz]

im not saying at all not to use your brakes, or that you should use your gears to slow you down.
im saying match your gears/revs to your speed when your braking.