Something wrong, front end, need advice/help please

[middlem2]

I'll shoot a short video and post the link to the host for it tomorrow.  That axle is pretty amazing!

[middlem2]

My bike waiting on front axle.  I went ahead and put the new windshield on while I was at it.  Looks great.  I'm not sure how the front axle could be bent so badly without the forks or anything else going with it, but there really is no telling what has been done.  The only thing I really need is some of those black plastic snap things for the underside of the fairing, if anyone knows where I can get them, please let me know.  Suzuki shop said they do not take front wheel off when "tweaking" front end.  I argued but its like talking to the wall.  I'm tempted to take it and throw it through a window while I'm there.





My wifes bike...while I'm posting photos...Kawasaki Vulcan 500LTD. 





Here's the video of my front axle..it is pretty obvious it is bent (unless you work as a Suzuki mechanic)....about 1/2 inch bend....LOL....

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=3310gvd

Finally, thank you all for your help!   

[starwalt]

Wow that was bent! Good eye GSJack! 

The service manuals all discuss checking the run out on the axle bolt. Spec is 0.25mm (0.010 in). I'd say yours fails that and then some.

No doubt the previous owner hit something. You should also check the front wheel for bends too...unless it is not the original wheel. 

[gsJack]

My wifes bike...while I'm posting photos...Kawasaki Vulcan 500LTD. 

That's one of my favorite cruisers.     Facing the fact that I might be forced to lower myself to a cruiser one of these years,  I check them out at the bike show every year. 

The Vulcan 500 would be the closest thing to a GS500 in the cruiser world.  Similar engine characteristics all around, rpm's, shift speeds performance curves, etc.

Could be I just like 500cc twins?   

[middlem2]

You guys know where I can get the black plastic rivots besides Suzuki?  I tried Ace and Auto Parts, but they didnt have them.  I guess I could suck it up and get them from suzuki. 

The Vulcan has a pretty cool sound to it.  I believe it is the same engine as the Ninja 500.  Needs a windshield, but that's another project for another day....maybe over this winter.

[middlem2]

Got the new axle today....put it on....son of a Buddha Loves You if the steering is still off slightly to the right.  I am in shock right now.  I'm not sure what else I can do minus loosening up the trees again, putting the wheel between my legs and yanking it to hopefully get it to set right.  This is really disappointing, to say the least.

[Toledo Jim]

Got the new axle today....put it on....son of a Buddha Loves You if the steering is still off slightly to the right.  I am in shock right now.  I'm not sure what else I can do minus loosening up the trees again, putting the wheel between my legs and yanking it to hopefully get it to set right.  This is really disappointing, to say the least.

That is the way it is done, you can't align everything properly until all the parts in at least "good" condition. 

Loosen the trees, get it straight, tighten it up, and you should be good to go.    (Unless something else is bent also. )

[middlem2]

Alright, will loosen everything up today...see where its at.  I'm hoping, really hoping this does it.  You cannot imagine how bad I was freaking yesterday when I got the wheel on and started down the road....only to see it like that.  I'll post an update hopefully later today or tomorrow. 

[middlem2]

Alright, need legal advice.  I am thinking small claims court.  Had mechanic over today and something is wrong.  Looks like maybe the middle triple tree and perhaps the one under the top.  We loosened up everything and cranked the wheel, then tightened everything up.  Probably will go back since it seems to have a memory.  Either way, it is not right, and it most definitely had been wrecked. 

I have found emails from the seller saying that it had been dropped, and dropped only.  I"m not sure what I should claim in court for what I want, but I would like to give the bike back or perhaps hammer him for $1k.  What I have put in the bike is $100 at dealership, $170ish mechanic, 35 part + shipping, and a whole lot of tinkering, hair pulling, and stress.  It really needs a new front end.  I made a copy of the title today and stopped in sm claims ct to ask questions, to which they replied they cant give legal advice.  Court cost to file is $50 for claims up to $1k.

Please can someone suggest course of action and how I need to document and how to ask for cost of work, stress, and it still not being right.  I also would like to find a police report or hospital record that he was there, obviously there should be from such a major crash, although it is possible that he could have walked away I suppose.  May I remind you he said, and documented in email, that the bike was only dropped.  Man I'm glad I kept the emails.

Thanks for the help again.

[gsJack]

Got the new axle today....put it on....son of a Buddha Loves You if the steering is still off slightly to the right.  I am in shock right now.  I'm not sure what else I can do minus loosening up the trees again, putting the wheel between my legs and yanking it to hopefully get it to set right.  This is really disappointing, to say the least.

What does "steering is still off slightly" mean, how much off?  It was off a whole big bunch before so I assume you mean it's now off much less than shown in your pics.  Mine's off a  little bit, so little that it's about the same or less than many new bikes that I've sat on at the dealer showrooms or at the bike shows.  They just don't turn out perfect.  I don't know if there is a spec for it, but it wouldn't be 90* +/- 0* between the handlebar and the front wheel.

How's your rear wheel alignment, have you checked it?  If the rear wheel is off slightly to the right, then you will be turning the front wheel slightly to the right to go straight down the road.  Make sure your rear wheel is aligned as well as possible.  I align with the swing arm marks making sure the plates with the index notches are turned  to take out freeplay in same direction on both sides.  Rotate the left side plate clockwise and the right side plate counterclockwise and snug down and then adjust square to the marks.  I've been known to road test and go back and make a bit of correction in the rear alignment to straighten the bars a bit.   

What does it most definetly had been wrecked mean?  Was there evidence of damaged parts found by the mechanic?  Remember the dealer's mechanic looked at it and said it only needed tweaked a bit and it had a bent axle he didn't discover.  Your guess is as good as the mechanics in many cases, that's why I do my own work and skip paying for the mechanic's guess.

[middlem2]

It is about where it was before.  Picture this, the front axle will not go in from the right to the left because the forks are so misalligned.  It does go in backwards, from the left to the right because the spacer helps it line up a bit more.  What we're seeing is a triple tree that is probably bent.  I would say if I loosened up everything again it will go back to about 25* off to the right which is not acceptable. 

Rear wheel allignment is fine.  I have checked this but it does not pertain to the problem.  The front wheel is cocked one way and the handlebars must be cocked the other to compensate when I'm going down the road.  If you sit on the bike and look, the fork seals are not even across, but the right is wayyy out front of the left, hence the wheel is pointing left and I must point the handlebars right to get the bike to go straight. 

I have taken pictures, I have emails.  And I quote from December 7, 2005.
 
"Well, I paid $4,700 for the bike brand new this year, and the NADA (what Banks use to determine the value of cars kind of like Kelly Blue BooK) value is $3,500.  I am only looking for $3,000 because i am buying my uncles truck, which hes only charging me $3,000 for.  My reserve price is just a shade lower than $3,000 at $2,900.  I should have my digital camera back tomorrow from my buddy to get better pics of the tires for you.

p.s. And nothing is bent that will affect the driving.  Other than the fairing scratches youd never know the bike ever fell over."

The fell over part is where I am paying attention to.  Basically, as proof,  I have a bent axle, mechanic receipts (from Suzuki and independent mech.), and a bike that is not right.  I dont like stressing about this bike when I'm going down the road and even though it is straight now, there is no telling when it will go back because of the bent tree(s) which stresses me out in the back of my head. 

What am I looking at in court? 

[gsJack]

When you took it apart to check it you found the bent axle and said you checked the fork tubes and they are straight, not bent.  Don't see how a drop or collision could bend the trees without bending the fork tubes.  What makes you think the trees are bent, can you see a bend in them?  They could be twisted out of alignment with the top tree rotated a bit about the steering stem.  This can happen from a simple drop and when everything is loosened up and springs back in place and then you tighten it back up it should remain aligned unless you have another drop.  You said:

"I dont like stressing about this bike when I'm going down the road and even though it is straight now, there is no telling when it will go back because of the bent tree(s) which stresses me out in the back of my head."

If it is straight now and if you weren't applying some twisting force to it while you tightened it up again, then why would it go back to twisted again?  It went to it's relaxed position when you loosened it up.

Did you loosen the large chrome plated bolt head that clamps the top tree to the steering stem when you had it all loosened?  If so and if the fork tubes aren't bent, then the trees should be in alignment now since they are located from the tubes.

If you can put the axle in backwards, then you should be able to put it in the right way.  Are you taking the brake caliper off while putting in the axle?  I would take the wheel off again and move it aside and see if the axle will slip freely thru the holes in the fork sliders without the wheel.  If so it will go thru the right way with the wheel in place.  Loosen the clamp bolt at the bottom of the disc side fork tube and remove the adjustment sleeve from it while you put the wheel and axle in place; should go easy that way with the big hole to aim for and then slip the sleeve onto the axle and into the hole in the slider.  Tighten the axle nut before you tighten the pinch bolt and it will set the right space for the wheel assembly.

I don't know anything about small claims court except it surely would take a lot more time and trouble than it would to finish up the job now unless you know the trees are somehow actually bent.

[middlem2]

The only reason things are alligned right now is because both of us physically had to hold and tighten things up.  If you can imagine one guy in front, wheel between legs cranking handlebars as hard as he can while the other guy is then tightening up the center screw and all the triple trees.  Even with the new axle it was as bad as it was in the first picture.  Minus a whole new front end, maybe even then, I cant fully trust my bike.  I rode it for 1/2 an hour today and it is moving back to the way it was before we physically manipulated it and tightened everything down. 

I'm going to consult a lawyer, we or I will probably do some police record searching (to find record of his crash), and I will go from there.  I believe a simple letter would probably get my problem settled, and if not, then I will do whatever it takes to get it resolved the hard way.  It shouldnt be like this, plain and simple.  If you buy a bike, there is a difference between being told it was dropped vs flat out wrecked.

[EricRat]

Assuming you are still moving towards resolving this, the procedure here may help.

http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/fork/title.html

The examples are all BMW, but the process is identical.  You may be able to persuade the lower tripple back into line.  The procedures shown will at least tell you how far out of line things are.

Best luck,

Eric

[sledge]

The fork tubes have to be bent, it only takes a few tenths of 1 millimeter before the effect becomes noticable and you just cant see that sort of distortion by eye over the length of the tube. They need to be placed in vee-blocks and the run-out checked with a DTI, something best left to a specalist. I cant see how the axlebolt could  bend so severly and leave the forks undamaged. They must have moved to allow the bolt to bend. BTW it doesnt take an accident to cause this sort of damge, it could just as easily have happened if it fell over of the stand.

[sledge]

I just checked the manual. Suzuki quote a max allowable run-out of 0.25mm (or about 0.010") for each fork tube. Anyone who can spot that by eye is good!

[gsJack]

This picture was shown way back in post #4 showing the misalignment of the upper and lower trees:



Looks like a few degrees to me, maybe 5* at most. 

What does it look like now, still misaligned like this?  If the front wheel and the fork brace are removed and the steering stem bolt and the triple tree clamps are all loosened, the top and bottom trees should come back into alignment as viewed this way from above.  If they don't, then the fork tubes must be bent in this upper area.

Think of what happens when the GS is dropped.  The bike falls to the left side and hits on the ground against the left end of the handle bar. The steering turns to full lock right and the handlebar backed up by the weight of the falling bike and rider wants to keep turning to the right while the lower triple tree comes to an abrupt stop when it hits the steering stop producing the twist in the trees and forks which are held in the twisted position till the parts are loosened and it all springs back into place if nothing is bent.

Way back in the first post we are told: "the previous owner that I purchased it from said that he put it down in gravel" and the pictured misalignment is consistant with this.  The only part that is inconsistant with this is the bent axle, that is hard to relate to such a drop.

All this sure makes me glad I do all my own repair and service work, the mechanics consulted  here sure haven't been very impressive so far, only rather expensive. 

[middlem2]

We measured the forks and one was .010 and the other was .030 off.  I wouldnt call that major and definitely not major enough to cause such major allignment problems.    I still believe it is the middle tree.  I have been thinking about this a lot.  I'll wait till it starts snowing and then tear back into her.

My picture you reposted, please look at it again and check out the major difference in where the fork seals are down there.  Yeah, wayyy off. 

Now, check out this picture again and I think I see a downward bend in the left triple, it also apprears to be back further than the right.  This might/would explain the whole situation.  Hmm...

[sledge]

Jacks right, must be some crap rip-off mechanics around there, I guess they are cherry-picking their jobs and dont want to get involved with this one. Also like Jack I too just cannot see how even a modest accident can damage the axlebolt and/or clamps yet leave the tubes undamaged. Why are you so certain the tubes are servicable?
Tubes are the weakest items in the link and are almost always the first things to suffer in a front end accident, the weak point being the section between the leg and the lower clamp. In my view those run-out figures are excessive. Its not so much the individual amounts but the 0.020"  difference between the tubes that I would be concerned about. Depending on where that runout is in the tube it will be exagerated when fitted into the leg resulting in the axlebolt holes being out by a lot more.
You have already said that lining the bolt up and fitting it was difficult. If one tube is bent forwards and one is bent backwards or fitted this way you could be out by as much as 0.050" without even considering the leg and its effect. Try this......dismantle the forks get them in vee-blocks and clock the tubes again over the entire length, I assume thats how you came by the original figures as there is no other satisfactory method to check and measure run-out.  Mark the highspots in the tubes, refit them so that they point in from the sides of the bike, opposite direction as the indicators. This will result in the tubes being more or less parallel but the runouts facing each other. At the same time it should bring the axlebolt holes into line but it will increase the distance they are apart. If it works you may get better results but with 0.020" difference between tubes your handling is always going to be wooley. Just get them off and checked out by a specialist...it really isnt a big issue, its easy, and it doesnt cost a lot to straighten them out if they are found to be bent. If they are found to be servicable, you know then for certain the problem can only be related to the clamps and the forks have to come off anyway if you have to remove the clamps. Lets be honest about it, you need to move in another direction and try something else as you dont seem to be getting anywhere by adjusting the clamps and the tubes.

[middlem2]

Alright, I need a little more info and then I'll let this thread expire into cyberspace...

When winter hits, I will take her apart once again OR I can take her somewhere.  I thought about a salvage shop?  Maybe they normally deal w fork/triple type things?  I think there is one about 60 miles from here in Hamilton, Ohio.  I could take the forks off again, and where would I take them to find runout?  I guess that is the big dilemna....where to take the parts or the bike.  I'm not looking to spend more than $300 more on this bike to make it right though.  I think that is my final limit.  If there is somewhere to send the forks (wondering if shipping would be $$$$ also) or somewhere (minus the dealer) that I could probably take it, I'm open to suggestions. 

Again, thanks for your help.