Help me find a car!

[makenzie71]

Ok I haven't really read all the suggestions thus far but I did catch you dismiss the STi because it's too "ricer" looking.  Let me tell you something about the STi...it has options.  There's more than one STi roaming the streets that looks identicle to the RS except 18" wheels.  The only reason those cars have 18" wheels is because those big f%$king brembos don't fit behind anything else.  If you can afford it, don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Downside to the STi is that it's not a very reliable car.  Neither is the WRX.  Both are plagued with transmission troubles and the simple fact that they're turbo cars makes them that much less reliable...many, many more parts to break and I've seen those monstrous snouts of theirs inhale birds which resulted in the need of a new intercooler.  300+ whp is already stressing that block.

I wouldn't get an STi, though.  In fact, I wouldn't be looking for AWD.  Trust me, AWD isn't going to do anything but shave your 60ft times a little and eat tires.  Having driven all varieties of drivetrains in ALL varieties of road (and off) conditions, rear wheel drive is 100% where it's at.  If you're really that concerned with poor weather driveabillity, AWD isn't going to get you anything that FWD won't, and you'll spend less on the car.

The ONLY AWD new car on the market that I would suggest buying is the Volkswagen Golf R32.  AWD, 6spd, stupid fast.

If you're going for a new car, I would suggest staying away from the E90.  BMW just dropped it on the market and it's just not what I would call reliable yet.  The E46 is a better option, but it's also not my favorite.  If I had to run with an E46 I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 330i.  I would much more prefer get an E36 and if you got the money to spend, look for a 1997 or 1998 M3/4.  Those are the only 4-door M3's...EVER.  They're much more balanced than the coupes, a little lighter, and actually have fewer body/mechanical problems than all the coupes.  That's going to be my ultimate suggestion to you; '97/98 M3/4.  Follewed by a 328i or iS.

Again, though, if a new car is a must, look at Lincoln.  Seriously.  The LS is a badass platform and their six puts down nearly as much torque as the V8 option.  The 5spd is realy crisp and direct and the car, despite what you would think, is designed by people who wanted a sports sedan.  The suspension is stiff, the car is low, the driving postion is aggressive...it was built to compete directly with the BMW 5-series and only falters by fractions of seconds across the run scenario and in general fit-n-finnish ($30k car vs $50k car, though).

Another new car I would suggest Pontiac GTO.  LOTS of power all over the place and it's a 6spd.

I'm really drawing a blank, though, on other cars in that area that are of real intest in comparison to the STi/etc.

[makenzie71]

Ok the 2.0 quattros are also badasses but some of them stretch quite beyond STi pricing.  I don't really know what you're looking to spend.

Being as immersed in the car world as I tend to be, hit me up with your price range and I'll just tell you what most badass per buck thing there is.

[Susuki_Jah]

well when you said BMW and Lexus you are talking about 40K+ cars the lotus elise is a 42k car new so I assumed you had that to spend.  im still searching for that AWD car for you I might have been looking on a overseas infiniti site though. it seems like you like the subaru though out of all of them. Id say go for it. 

BMW 328xi - $34,300
Lexus IS250 - $34,285
Subaru Legacy GT - $28,295
Audi A4 2.0T Quattro - $30,340

I think hes looking into the high 20's to low 30's  Im guessing? 

[yamahonkawazuki]

+200 on the lincolns 

[makenzie71]

~Lincoln LS is discontinued......I just started warming up to her, too...

[ledfingers]

i agree with staying away from the e90's. new model, lots of bugs. not expensive to fix the bugs (full warranty), just a PIA.

e46's are GREAT cars (99-05 3series, 00-present M3's), if you want serious performance, no, but everyday badassedness and very very very reliable, comfortable cars, 330i/is is where it's at. (330is is only available in coupes i think). You could pick up a pre-owned e46 with a manual for around 28k. And if you got a 325ix WAGON, you have tons of room, massive balls, great great great handling, and an extremely reliable car. The owner of Cunningham BMW's wife only drives the new cars as much as she's requiered to (owners and presidents are required to drive specific cars, enforced by BMW NA), she loves her wagon. And it's a 2001!!! they tow it all across the country behind their "bus" (multi-million dollar prevost motorcoach).

but other than BMW's (i'll never own anything else personally), don't discount the volvo. One of the techs @ Cunningham BMW (san diego) had one when i worked there and he let me drive it. HO-LEE-BALLS the thing SOUNDS amazing, SO comfortable, stops on a freaking dime, handles incredibly, and makes your cheeks wiggle with it pinned to the floor. He never had any problems with it, he loves it.

i don't like subarus. they just don't interest me. great cars, just boring IMO.

Audis are great cars, very reliable, great performance, my mom has an 05 A4 and hasn't had a single problem with it. But the 3 different A4's i've driven were so varied in quality that i think it's a hit-or-miss thing with them. You'd have to find one thats been meticulously maintained...

one more thing about BMW's. Buy low-mileage lease returns, get the extended warranty, when that expires, sell it and get something else. You only hang on to old bmws...

[manofthefield]

I agree with Mak re fwd vs rwd vs awd.  AWD can be nice, but RWD provides just as good handling with less weight/complexity.  In TX I really wouldn't be worried about inclement weather, unless you don't plan on staying in the south.  I had an old Legacy GT (1997: 2.5L no turbo) and it was great in the deep snow (up to the bumper or more deep), but I'm as happy or happier driving a FWD in light snow and at slippery highway speeds.  If you're really worried about a RWD in the snow don't forget all the new ones have great traction control and they are great with snow tires. 

That being said, Subaru's are decent cars in my experience, but the quality (fit, finish, etc.) is no where near the level of any of the European cars mentioned or Lexus.  Also, I've heard bad things about Subaru manual transmissions... sounds like the clutch wears out pretty quickly, like 60k miles or something.  Maybe these things have changed on the newer Subies though, I'm not sure. 

[LPC2104]

Another vote for the Subaru.  My wife (non lesbian  ) has a 2004 Forester XT auto and the thing is freaking awesome.  Not a big Volvo fan....my mom had the big SUV 2 years ago and it was constantly in the shop and the interior looked cheap.  Audi's are nice too.  My dad is on his 3rd audi (2nd A8) and never has issues.  My grandma has the A4, along with a leadfoot, and she loves it too.  Just my .02.

[Alphamazing]

http://fast4wheels.com/cars_for_sale.html#car3

now I dont know if this would or would not meet your needs but its an idea and I know it is a very desirable vehicle.

It's not a sedan, so no, not what I'm looking for.

Ok I haven't really read all the suggestions thus far but I did catch you dismiss the STi because it's too "ricer" looking.  Let me tell you something about the STi...it has options.  There's more than one STi roaming the streets that looks identicle to the RS except 18" wheels.  The only reason those cars have 18" wheels is because those big f%$king brembos don't fit behind anything else.  If you can afford it, don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Downside to the STi is that it's not a very reliable car.  Neither is the WRX.  Both are plagued with transmission troubles and the simple fact that they're turbo cars makes them that much less reliable...many, many more parts to break and I've seen those monstrous snouts of theirs inhale birds which resulted in the need of a new intercooler.  300+ whp is already stressing that block.

The only option with the STi came in '07, where they took off the big wing and didn't put gold wheels on it, making it more subtle. But even then, it still looks like a ricer car to me. Dunno, just not a big fan of the styling. And you're right, it isn't very reliable from what I've read. The Legacy is a toned down STi, both in looks and power. However, this doesn't mean it's a slouch. 250HP is more than enough.

I wouldn't get an STi, though.  In fact, I wouldn't be looking for AWD.  Trust me, AWD isn't going to do anything but shave your 60ft times a little and eat tires.  Having driven all varieties of drivetrains in ALL varieties of road (and off) conditions, rear wheel drive is 100% where it's at.  If you're really that concerned with poor weather driveabillity, AWD isn't going to get you anything that FWD won't, and you'll spend less on the car.

I am really not intending to buy a FWD car ever again. I don't like them, just personal preference. If the time comes around and no AWD vehicles are availible in my price range, or none in my area, I would be considering a RWD sport sedan as an alternative. This opens up the market to all the BMW 3s, Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, and a host of others.

The ONLY AWD new car on the market that I would suggest buying is the Volkswagen Golf R32.  AWD, 6spd, stupid fast.

Still a coupe, and a bit smaller than what I'm looking for. Hatchbacks are usually in the compact car category, whereas wagons are more common with the fuller size sedans I'm considering. A wagon wouldn't be too bad.

If you're going for a new car, I would suggest staying away from the E90.  BMW just dropped it on the market and it's just not what I would call reliable yet.  The E46 is a better option, but it's also not my favorite.  If I had to run with an E46 I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 330i.  I would much more prefer get an E36 and if you got the money to spend, look for a 1997 or 1998 M3/4.  Those are the only 4-door M3's...EVER.  They're much more balanced than the coupes, a little lighter, and actually have fewer body/mechanical problems than all the coupes.  That's going to be my ultimate suggestion to you; '97/98 M3/4.  Follewed by a 328i or iS.

I'm looking at new cars now, because they will be used when I am looking to buy, a few years from now. I don't want to buy a 10 year old car but I don't want to buy new either, so you can see why I'm looking at more recent model vehicles. Also, I think the M3 is a bit harder edged sports car than I am looking for. I'm not looking for balls to the wall sports car with four doors, nor am I looking for a plain ol' family sedan. I'm trying to find the balance between those two.

Again, though, if a new car is a must, look at Lincoln.  Seriously.  The LS is a badass platform and their six puts down nearly as much torque as the V8 option.  The 5spd is realy crisp and direct and the car, despite what you would think, is designed by people who wanted a sports sedan.  The suspension is stiff, the car is low, the driving postion is aggressive...it was built to compete directly with the BMW 5-series and only falters by fractions of seconds across the run scenario and in general fit-n-finnish ($30k car vs $50k car, though).

I read up on the LS, and all the reviews pretty much said the same thing; with the improvements in '03, the LS does get more sporty, but not up to par with the likes of the Europeans and Japanese.

Another new car I would suggest Pontiac GTO.  LOTS of power all over the place and it's a 6spd.

Yeah, a big honkin' V8 will give you power all over, but the gas mileage is attrocious, which is why I'm tending to stick with 6cyl or less (note my main two choices were turbocharged 4cyl engines). Plus, it's a coupe. I really like having a sedan.

Ok the 2.0 quattros are also badasses but some of them stretch quite beyond STi pricing.  I don't really know what you're looking to spend.

Being as immersed in the car world as I tend to be, hit me up with your price range and I'll just tell you what most badass per buck thing there is.

The price range is roughly $30-35k new, which means used prices in a few years will be much more reasonable.

i agree with staying away from the e90's. new model, lots of bugs. not expensive to fix the bugs (full warranty), just a PIA.

e46's are GREAT cars (99-05 3series, 00-present M3's), if you want serious performance, no, but everyday badassedness and very very very reliable, comfortable cars, 330i/is is where it's at. (330is is only available in coupes i think). You could pick up a pre-owned e46 with a manual for around 28k. And if you got a 325ix WAGON, you have tons of room, massive balls, great great great handling, and an extremely reliable car.

I think you and I have different ideas of what very very very reliable means. I know a few people with BMW 3-series, and compared to what I'm used to (Hondas and Toyotas) they aren't nearly as reliable. BMWs are reliable just like Ducatis are reliable.

but other than BMW's (i'll never own anything else personally), don't discount the volvo. One of the techs @ Cunningham BMW (san diego) had one when i worked there and he let me drive it. HO-LEE-BALLS the thing SOUNDS amazing, SO comfortable, stops on a freaking dime, handles incredibly, and makes your cheeks wiggle with it pinned to the floor. He never had any problems with it, he loves it.

And from the reviews I've read (multiple reviews from different magazines and personal drive tests from people), the Volvos are just the opposite of that. More of a family sedan than a sport sedan.

one more thing about BMW's. Buy low-mileage lease returns, get the extended warranty, when that expires, sell it and get something else. You only hang on to old bmws...

I'm not looking to keep buying cars, that is a waste of money to me. I am looking to buy a car that I can keep for a long time. A car is a serious investment for me, and I'm not just going to buy, use, then sell in a few years so I can get something newer. I intend to keep this car until it refuses to work anymore.

That being said, Subaru's are decent cars in my experience, but the quality (fit, finish, etc.) is no where near the level of any of the European cars mentioned or Lexus.  Also, I've heard bad things about Subaru manual transmissions... sounds like the clutch wears out pretty quickly, like 60k miles or something.  Maybe these things have changed on the newer Subies though, I'm not sure. 

The Legacy, when redesigned in '05, was designed to compete with the European cars or higher end Japanese cars. The interior quality got a significant upgrade, and included many standard options (leather seating, power front seats, heated front seats, leather wrapped steering wheel, etc), as well as improvements to the mechanical work. I did hear about the clutch issues on a few of the Subarus, but I think they were isolated instances and mainly a factor of how the person drove.

Not a big Volvo fan....my mom had the big SUV 2 years ago and it was constantly in the shop and the interior looked cheap.

Yeah, a few of my friends in high school had Volvos for a while, and they had tons of little niggling issues. Power windows went out, air conditioning always breaking, power locks breaking, etc. Not my cup of tea.

[Susuki_Jah]

before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

BMW
VOLVO
VW 

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

like I said these are all just opinions. YOu should buy 100% what you like driving the best and what will last you.

keep us updated one what you test drive and what you like best of luck

[yamahonkawazuki]

aye none of us are buying the vehicle, you are. i averaged 20 mpg in the city in my chevy truck (350 v8) arond 12 if i hammered teh bejeezus outta it

[Alphamazing]

before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

I've driven a few of the older Volvos, both turbo and non turbo varients. I have never been impressed with the handling nor the quality level in any of the ones I have been in. Also, there is more to a car than just engine and transmission. The stuff I mentioned earlier, the niggling little problems, play a big factor in true reliability. And I'm not just reading about these cars and hearing about high schoolers and women who know nothing about them, I'm reading performance tests from major magazines as well as usability tests from every day people. It doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature. The S40/V50 are notably slower and poorer handling than their competition (and this comes from multiple organizations' test data), and are notably unrefined compared to other vehicles in their class. It is not just one source saying this, it is multiple sources.

if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

Hahahahahaha. You're joking, right? Modern Japanese vehicles (from about 1985 on) are considered the most reliable vehicles on the road by pretty much anyone with knowledge on the subject. I drove a 1989 Honda Accord for a few years before we sold it to my cousin. It now has over 250k miles on it, and has never had a single issue. Just changed the oil and drive. It has never been in the shop for a single problem because it still runs like it did when it was new. My uncle has a 1987 Toyota Corolla with over 350k on it. All he's done is change the oil and tires, brakes and filters (regular maintenance). All the electronics still work, and the brakes and power steering still work perfectly, and the engine has always had strong compression. It has never had an engine rebuild, nor has it ever needed any transmission work or exhaust work. He doesn't baby the thing when he drives it either. He lives in Houston, which means it's like Atlanta, but with fewer lanes. His wife said that if the car ever gave up on him entirely (he would still have to do the standard maintenance), then he could buy a new car. It's still going and refuses to die.

As for the handling, Acura (Honda), Mazda, and Subaru are all highly regarded for their excellent handling cars. Even Nissan and Infiniti have quite a few vehicles that trounce their European competition.

also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

Mazda Miata (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Subaru Legacy 2.5i (2.5L boxer 4) - 21mpg
Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L turbo boxer 4) - 20mpg
Audi A4 (2.0L turbo I4) - 23mpg
BMW 325i (3.0L I6) - 24mpg
Scion tC (w/ TRD supercharger) (2.4L supercharged I4) - 26mpg
Lotus Elise (1.8L I4) - 29mpg
Volkswagen Passat (2.0L I4) - 24mpg

Dodge Magnum - (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Mercedes-Benz SLK350 (3.5L V6) - 21mpg
Dodge Charger (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Volkswagen Passat (3.6L V6) - 22mpg

Chevrolet Corvette - (6.0L V8) - 21mpg
Pontiac GTO (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Cadillac CTS  (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Audi S4 (4.2L V8) - 20mpg
Dodge Charger (5.7L V8) - 17mpg

So, notice a distinct trend? Only two of the V8 engine cars average over 20mpg, while most of the Four cylinder cars were in the mid 20s (average). The worst fuel economy achieved by the Legacy GT was 15mpg, with a high of 25mpg. The low for the V8 cars is always In the 11-13 range. My father's V8 F-150 averaged 15mpg on a regular basis, and 12mpg when we were pulling the boat.

[Susuki_Jah]

well my experience will be different than your experience. so hopefully you find exactly what you want. keep us updated

[makenzie71]

The only option with the STi came in '07, where they took off the big wing and didn't put gold wheels on it, making it more subtle. But even then, it still looks like a ricer car to me. Dunno, just not a big fan of the styling. And you're right, it isn't very reliable from what I've read. The Legacy is a toned down STi, both in looks and power. However, this doesn't mean it's a slouch. 250HP is more than enough.

Trust me, you can buy the STi in whatever trim "look" you want it in.  Subaru is eager to sell them.  If it's the car for you, just waltz on in there and tell them you're not buying it unless it comes in RS trim (plus the necessary 18" wheels).  They'll have to order it, but they'll sell it to you that way.  Cheaper, too.  However, finding one used (your idea here) isn't feasable so yeah...not an option.

I am really not intending to buy a FWD car ever again. I don't like them, just personal preference. If the time comes around and no AWD vehicles are availible in my price range, or none in my area, I would be considering a RWD sport sedan as an alternative. This opens up the market to all the BMW 3s, Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, and a host of others.

Trust me, I fully understand.  I don't like front wheel drive cars...I especially do not like powerful front wheel drive cars.  Torque steer pisses me off.  However, you will have to keep an eye out for the available AWD cars.  See, most are built on front wheel drive chassis' and platforms (Audi, Volkswagen, Ford, Mitsubishi, even Subaru) and their drivelines are notorious front-wheel force-feeders.  Most AWD cars have a "dominant end" and you want to be sure that the base platform is rear wheel drive...that will make the rear the dominant.  Driving that other set of wheels, in most cases, is 100% afterthought and the setups just aren't balanced.

Still a coupe, and a bit smaller than what I'm looking for. Hatchbacks are usually in the compact car category, whereas wagons are more common with the fuller size sedans I'm considering. A wagon wouldn't be too bad.

I hadn't caught your need for a sedan.  I'm with you there, too...I'll never be able to own a coupe again as my sole automobil.

I'm looking at new cars now, because they will be used when I am looking to buy, a few years from now. I don't want to buy a 10 year old car but I don't want to buy new either, so you can see why I'm looking at more recent model vehicles. Also, I think the M3 is a bit harder edged sports car than I am looking for. I'm not looking for balls to the wall sports car with four doors, nor am I looking for a plain ol' family sedan. I'm trying to find the balance between those two.

Trust me...hunt down an M3/4 and drive it.  You'll find that perfect balance.  The M3/4 is everything the 328i is...quite spacious for a compact, stupendous fuel economy, crisp feel and nice fit/finnish...plus 40hp, 320mm brakes, and a slightly different tune suspension.  The ride in the M3 is no more "sporty" than the standard sedans/coupes.  The car's just faster to go and stop and far more planted when tossed through the curves.

I read up on the LS, and all the reviews pretty much said the same thing; with the improvements in '03, the LS does get more sporty, but not up to par with the likes of the Europeans and Japanese.

I didn't think much of them until I drove one...changed my mind, but no, I would never trade my BMW for one.

Yeah, a big honkin' V8 will give you power all over, but the gas mileage is attrocious, which is why I'm tending to stick with 6cyl or less (note my main two choices were turbocharged 4cyl engines). Plus, it's a coupe. I really like having a sedan.

I wouldn't get one, either...well I would probably get one for Kalee...but it's the only other car I could think of at the time with badassness.  However, I toyed with one around town not too long ago...hitting the mall and some other joints and stop-n-go traffic she held around 18mpg.  My bimmer does just a hair better.  On the highway, though, we ran about 25mpg...my 328i runs 30~35.  Lots of power, and economy isn't too bad.

The price range is roughly $30-35k new, which means used prices in a few years will be much more reasonable.

I think you and I have different ideas of what very very very reliable means. I know a few people with BMW 3-series, and compared to what I'm used to (Hondas and Toyotas) they aren't nearly as reliable. BMWs are reliable just like Ducatis are reliable.

No no no...Ducatis are reliable like AMF Harleys are reliable.  There's a very good reason why 87% of BMW's North American sales are to repeat customers or family of repeat customers...and why I, after spending my life in all varieties of Japanese cars (MKI/II/III/IV Supras, FB/C/D RX-7's, Imprezzas, Lexus', Civics, Mirages, Accords, Camrys, Galants, VR4's of all models, etc), I will be one of those "repeat customers" BMW is so proud of.

I can tell you this...I inherited my car with one problem (clogged ICV...too lazy to fix it), and in the 60k I've put on her in the two years I've had it, I've never had a problem that was not my doing.  She'll be turning 200k before Summer.  My last one (1994 325iS) had 315k on the clock when I traded her for the Porsche (yeah don't get a porsche).

And from the reviews I've read (multiple reviews from different magazines and personal drive tests from people), the Volvos are just the opposite of that. More of a family sedan than a sport sedan..

Spot on.  Drive one.  You'll see.  Unless you spend $50k on one, you'll be disapointed...unless you want your wife and kids to be safe.

I'm not looking to keep buying cars, that is a waste of money to me. I am looking to buy a car that I can keep for a long time. A car is a serious investment for me, and I'm not just going to buy, use, then sell in a few years so I can get something newer. I intend to keep this car until it refuses to work anymore.

It's a pointless idea anyway.

I did hear about the clutch issues on a few of the Subarus, but I think they were isolated instances and mainly a factor of how the person drove.

It's not just a clutch thing...I know that you shouldn't expect 3rd gear to last very long in an STi or if you boost up a WRX.  It's also not isolated.  It may be sorted out by now, but I'm not a fan of any company who will actually deny a factory flaw that more than 50% of the consumers suffer from.

Okay now your $30k~ish price range is somewhat vague because cars depreciate on WILDLY different levels...so I'm going to speak of cars you should be able to get for $20k or under RIGHT NOW.  That will put between $17k and $19k in the next 12~24 months.

First, and foremost, suggestion.  1998 M3/4.  As said, this is basically a compact family sedan with sportscar motor, brakes, and a sportier suspension.  You really need to get stiffer bushings and springs, and variable rate struts to make the car handle like a REAL sports car.  The M3 isn't that much better on the track, handling wise, than the 318.  Right now there is a NICE Byzanz (the best color) M3/4 for sale in Houston with 102k on the clock for $17,800.  You'll be able to average 25mpg with this car.

Second suggestion would be a 2003 BMW 330i.  This was the last model before the "touch up".  It's got the BEST 5spd transmission BMW has conjured up to date, in my opinion.  It's toned more as a family-type car, but it'll handle up there with the E36 M3 and she's almost as quick.  They're pretty stout.  These run between $17k and $20k right now.  The 2004 is a better car, in my opinion, but you'll have a hard time finding one for under $25k right now.

Third suggestion would be an E39 528i.  Now, these cars are essentially the same from like 1996 or 97 up until 2003, minus some mild body changes, and they can be had from $6000 to $30,000.  These cars are basically the E36 + some space.  They're light and sporty, awesome handling for the size, good fuel economy, and they look nice.  Plus, it's so easy to find ET20 wheels with 3" lips...just look badass.  If you want I've got a buddy in Austin with a 2000 528i/5spd and I'm sure he wouldn't mind letting you see what the car is like to drive.  This will likely be my next car if I don't just drop an M3 block in my 328.  I will say, though, that the 5-series has always been the most plagued with little grmlins, but by the time the E39 came out they were simple things like the onboard computer telling you your tailights were out and other things that are mostly just iritating, not real problems.

I've also a couple friends with both E36's and E46's available that would also let you check them out.

I'll post more suggestions later...of other makes...but the simpsons is coming on.  You know...prioraties.

[makenzie71]

oops...still 24 laps of the NEXTEL race.  First twenty, 75~100, and the last 4 are the only really interesting laps.

Another car I would suggest, though it's older and WAAAYYYYY under your budget, is an E34 525i.  Bullitproof...can't be beaten.  I've personally seen two 350k+ all-original E34 525's.

To point out that I'm not ENTIRELY BMW biased, I'll add that only idiots own X5's, X3's, or 7-series BMW's.  The X's were never any good, and the 7's stopped being worth a shaZam! in the early 90's.

Anyway...I'll try and move away from my BMW bias for a bit and make some other suggestions.  However, finding other reliable RWD/AWD cars that I think are good bets is...umm...difficult...

I will say that the Impreza RS is a good car.  As long as you don't go to stressing that block it'll run forever.  You can find just about any year for under your price limit.

Anything with a 2JZ in it will run forever, but about the only 2JZ cars you'll find with a 5spd outside of the Supra are Soarers and good luck with that.  The 3SGE in the GHSX10 (RS200...first IS we saw in the states) is a badass, though, and the V160 is the best getrag tranny you will find in ANY car (which is why the best cars in the world use variants of the same Getrag).  I would stay way away from the new line of Lexuses, though, because nearly everything about this is new...not reliable yet.

The MazdaSpeed 6 is somewhat intriguing, but it's too expensive, too new, and the AWD system sucks.  It's WAY too front-biased...even without my incredibly critical view of front-biased awd cars.  The central difarential in these cars is computer/hydrolic controlled...completely useless.  The only time you'll see full power delivered to the rear is when you don't really need it...and you're prevented from seeing a rear bias...ever.

[Kasumi]

before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

I've driven a few of the older Volvos, both turbo and non turbo varients. I have never been impressed with the handling nor the quality level in any of the ones I have been in. Also, there is more to a car than just engine and transmission. The stuff I mentioned earlier, the niggling little problems, play a big factor in true reliability. And I'm not just reading about these cars and hearing about high schoolers and women who know nothing about them, I'm reading performance tests from major magazines as well as usability tests from every day people. It doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature. The S40/V50 are notably slower and poorer handling than their competition (and this comes from multiple organizations' test data), and are notably unrefined compared to other vehicles in their class. It is not just one source saying this, it is multiple sources.

if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

Hahahahahaha. You're joking, right? Modern Japanese vehicles (from about 1985 on) are considered the most reliable vehicles on the road by pretty much anyone with knowledge on the subject. I drove a 1989 Honda Accord for a few years before we sold it to my cousin. It now has over 250k miles on it, and has never had a single issue. Just changed the oil and drive. It has never been in the shop for a single problem because it still runs like it did when it was new. My uncle has a 1987 Toyota Corolla with over 350k on it. All he's done is change the oil and tires, brakes and filters (regular maintenance). All the electronics still work, and the brakes and power steering still work perfectly, and the engine has always had strong compression. It has never had an engine rebuild, nor has it ever needed any transmission work or exhaust work. He doesn't baby the thing when he drives it either. He lives in Houston, which means it's like Atlanta, but with fewer lanes. His wife said that if the car ever gave up on him entirely (he would still have to do the standard maintenance), then he could buy a new car. It's still going and refuses to die.

As for the handling, Acura (Honda), Mazda, and Subaru are all highly regarded for their excellent handling cars. Even Nissan and Infiniti have quite a few vehicles that trounce their European competition.

also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

Mazda Miata (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Subaru Legacy 2.5i (2.5L boxer 4) - 21mpg
Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L turbo boxer 4) - 20mpg
Audi A4 (2.0L turbo I4) - 23mpg
BMW 325i (3.0L I6) - 24mpg
Scion tC (w/ TRD supercharger) (2.4L supercharged I4) - 26mpg
Lotus Elise (1.8L I4) - 29mpg
Volkswagen Passat (2.0L I4) - 24mpg

Dodge Magnum - (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Mercedes-Benz SLK350 (3.5L V6) - 21mpg
Dodge Charger (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Volkswagen Passat (3.6L V6) - 22mpg

Chevrolet Corvette - (6.0L V8) - 21mpg
Pontiac GTO (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Cadillac CTS  (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Audi S4 (4.2L V8) - 20mpg
Dodge Charger (5.7L V8) - 17mpg

So, notice a distinct trend? Only two of the V8 engine cars average over 20mpg, while most of the Four cylinder cars were in the mid 20s (average). The worst fuel economy achieved by the Legacy GT was 15mpg, with a high of 25mpg. The low for the V8 cars is always In the 11-13 range. My father's V8 F-150 averaged 15mpg on a regular basis, and 12mpg when we were pulling the boat.

i dont get it! how can your cars only give you like 20mph max. Over here in europe petrol and diesel is so expensive that the demand for good mpg is insane, and by good mpg our cars we drive around wana be doin 30mpg at the lowest, my dads merc clk 230 did 50.

I just don't understand why the cars are set up different for the US? if we hav the same brand and model cars producing twice the mpg as the models your getting over there. its crazy

[Alphamazing]

Mak, regarding the WRX, I'd rather just get the Legacy since it is a) more readily availible, b) far cheaper, and c)

Since I think I've got most of the AWD sport sedans down already (keep opinions coming), let's move into RWD sedans.

Mak, what is your take on the Infiniti G35 sedan and the Lexus IS300?

Also, if I ever did get a V8, it'd be a Ford Mustang GT, or if I had the extra cash to spend, the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500, which kinda deviates from my sport sedan desires.

i dont get it! how can your cars only give you like 20mph max. Over here in europe petrol and diesel is so expensive that the demand for good mpg is insane, and by good mpg our cars we drive around wana be doin 30mpg at the lowest, my dads merc clk 230 did 50.

I just don't understand why the cars are set up different for the US? if we hav the same brand and model cars producing twice the mpg as the models your getting over there. its crazy

Those wern't max mpg stats, those were average. Also, remember that 1.0 imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallon.

[makenzie71]

Mak, what is your take on the Infiniti G35 sedan and the Lexus IS300?

I thought the G35 looked a bit cheap on the inside, but overall they're too new to really tell how good the fit-n-finnish is.  Some of the interior panels seemed cheap and too purple-prose...things seemed to bolster out when a nice flat surface would have sufficed.  Things like this are what cut most of the spaciousness out of a car.  The engine is strong enough to catch your attention, but it's on the whole uninspiring.  I think the VQ35DE was a bad choice for the car.  They wanted an "americanized" Skyline...the car should have gotten the VQ35HR at the very least.  I really don't understand what Nissan was thinking when they started yelling "we're selling the Skylin in the US as the G35 coupe/sedan!"  When we think Skyline, we think GT/GTR.  Oh well.

The IS I like.  Like I said, anything with a 2JZ is dandy by me.  The better car, performance-wise, is the 3SGE/V160 equiped RS200 (the I4 IS300).  It's a better balance and the engine is a platform of immense potential.  I lust after the exterior...the lines are sexy, the stance is mean, it's an eye-catcher.  My biggest gripe about the IS300 is that teh interior is straight hideous in my opinion, and the instrument cluster pisses me off.  It's a "sports sedan".  You expect goofy looking contemporary guages in a beetle or an echo...not something they claim is competing with BMW.  A sports car, no matter how many doors it's got, should have HUGE easy to read analog guages.

I will note that two of the IS300's I've ridden in and driven had develope definite creaks and rattles before 100k.  To most people it wouldn't be a thing to concern yourself with, but I have a tendency to want to do maintainance to anything that creaks and rattles.

[Susuki_Jah]

before you knock the volvo's go drive one. I could care less what anyone sais . they handle better than most sports cars! dont always beleive the reviews they dont really mean crap. test drive as many things as you can , and take them to the limit when you test them out.  ive owned 4 volvos in my life and one of them had 400k on it. I dont see to many people driving there cars 400k on original engines and transmissions. this is somthing common with volvo. its called HIGH MIELAGE CLUB. they actually have a registared club. Im not trying to force these on you I just keep reading that you are only reading about these cars and hearing about highschool kids and woman who probly know nothing of these cars.

I've driven a few of the older Volvos, both turbo and non turbo varients. I have never been impressed with the handling nor the quality level in any of the ones I have been in. Also, there is more to a car than just engine and transmission. The stuff I mentioned earlier, the niggling little problems, play a big factor in true reliability. And I'm not just reading about these cars and hearing about high schoolers and women who know nothing about them, I'm reading performance tests from major magazines as well as usability tests from every day people. It doesn't matter whether or not they know anything about the cars themselves, their opinions on the car can reflect something about its nature. The S40/V50 are notably slower and poorer handling than their competition (and this comes from multiple organizations' test data), and are notably unrefined compared to other vehicles in their class. It is not just one source saying this, it is multiple sources.

if you got the Money I would go EUROPEAN they are going to handle better and last longer!

these are the cars you should be looking at.   
Japanese stuff is ok but will not last you as long as european engineering.

Hahahahahaha. You're joking, right? Modern Japanese vehicles (from about 1985 on) are considered the most reliable vehicles on the road by pretty much anyone with knowledge on the subject. I drove a 1989 Honda Accord for a few years before we sold it to my cousin. It now has over 250k miles on it, and has never had a single issue. Just changed the oil and drive. It has never been in the shop for a single problem because it still runs like it did when it was new. My uncle has a 1987 Toyota Corolla with over 350k on it. All he's done is change the oil and tires, brakes and filters (regular maintenance). All the electronics still work, and the brakes and power steering still work perfectly, and the engine has always had strong compression. It has never had an engine rebuild, nor has it ever needed any transmission work or exhaust work. He doesn't baby the thing when he drives it either. He lives in Houston, which means it's like Atlanta, but with fewer lanes. His wife said that if the car ever gave up on him entirely (he would still have to do the standard maintenance), then he could buy a new car. It's still going and refuses to die.

As for the handling, Acura (Honda), Mazda, and Subaru are all highly regarded for their excellent handling cars. Even Nissan and Infiniti have quite a few vehicles that trounce their European competition.

also about the comment on V8's most V*8's are making just as much fuel economy ratings as the V6's and even some of the 4cylinders. when my moms mercury mountianier with the 4.6L V8 is getting an avg of 20-22mpg  ... I would say thats pretty damn good. thats not outrages at all.  you are not going to get that great of mpg with a turbo vehicle either. if you drive the thing like a granny sure you can see 30+mpg  but when you get down on the thing or drive it a lot in traffic those numbers dont look so pretty they are closer to the v8 numbers. How do I know this. well Ive owned a few turbo vehicles they arent all that they are cracked up to be. harder to maintain and work on and are just not as reliable as a N/A vehicle.

Mazda Miata (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Honda Civic Si (2.0L I4) - 27mpg
Subaru Legacy 2.5i (2.5L boxer 4) - 21mpg
Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L turbo boxer 4) - 20mpg
Audi A4 (2.0L turbo I4) - 23mpg
BMW 325i (3.0L I6) - 24mpg
Scion tC (w/ TRD supercharger) (2.4L supercharged I4) - 26mpg
Lotus Elise (1.8L I4) - 29mpg
Volkswagen Passat (2.0L I4) - 24mpg

Dodge Magnum - (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Mercedes-Benz SLK350 (3.5L V6) - 21mpg
Dodge Charger (3.5L V6) - 19mpg
Volkswagen Passat (3.6L V6) - 22mpg

Chevrolet Corvette - (6.0L V8) - 21mpg
Pontiac GTO (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Cadillac CTS  (5.7L V8) - 17mpg
Audi S4 (4.2L V8) - 20mpg
Dodge Charger (5.7L V8) - 17mpg

So, notice a distinct trend? Only two of the V8 engine cars average over 20mpg, while most of the Four cylinder cars were in the mid 20s (average). The worst fuel economy achieved by the Legacy GT was 15mpg, with a high of 25mpg. The low for the V8 cars is always In the 11-13 range. My father's V8 F-150 averaged 15mpg on a regular basis, and 12mpg when we were pulling the boat.

i dont get it! how can your cars only give you like 20mph max. Over here in europe petrol and diesel is so expensive that the demand for good mpg is insane, and by good mpg our cars we drive around wana be doin 30mpg at the lowest, my dads merc clk 230 did 50.

I just don't understand why the cars are set up different for the US? if we hav the same brand and model cars producing twice the mpg as the models your getting over there. its crazy

its the emissions BS the cars have to go through.  once I took all that crap off my 91 Sentra SER and put a nice JDM motor in. MPG went up!

[makenzie71]

its the emissions BS the cars have to go through.  once I took all that crap off my 91 Sentra SER and put a nice JDM motor in. MPG went up!

You're smoking/drinking, right?  You do know that a vehicle that passes Euro emmissions standards will be deamed fit for human consumption in Cali, right?

The biggest difference in the economies between the two continents is that there's a difference in the actual volume per gallon.  Outside of that, the economy between vehicles there and here is roughly the same.  It's 100% in the person driving and maintaining the car.