Help me find a car!

[Alphamazing]

1.  Are you going to track the car?

No, I'd rather just borrow my mother's Miata to do that.

2.  Are you going to be driving on unplowed roads during winter snow/ice?

Snow is a rarity, and so is ice. However, I can't ride the bike in that sort of weather when it does come around, so if I need to go anywhere I'll be taking the car. When it iced over this year it thawed enough within a day or two to get around to the necessary places (grocery store, etc).

3.  Are you planning on staying around Austin?

Yes.

4.  How long do you want to keep it?

Until it no longer runs.

5.  How important is sporty handling vs. straight-line speed vs. gas mileage vs. practicality/cost?   

Straight line speed isn't a big deal, but I would like some get up and go; at least more than my Civic has.

Sporty handling is a plus, but not so sporty that it is uncomfortable on long trips. It should be plush enough to handle hundreds of miles of highway in comfort, but not handle like a boat when I push it a little bit. A balance between my mother's Miata and Camry, in other words. I'd like some semblance of decent gas mileage.

My bike averages about 40-45mpg, so a 35mpg vehicle isn't totally necessary, but I don't want to be averaging 12mpg around town. I'll be replacing tires on my bike pretty often (my rear is coming up on its wear bars pretty quickly after 3000 miles), so I'd rather not have to spring for expensive car tires all the time either. If i can get 50-60k out of a set of tires I think I'll be happy.

As to practicality, I want a sedan. A 4-door wagon might not be so bad either.

[l3uddha]

just get the damn Subaru....

[makenzie71]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380694&highlight=padre
~covers a particularly long trip of mine right after having bought the car.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343051&highlight=octane
~my octane comparison.

I'll convince you to buy one.  Oh...I will....

[sanjay]

Reliability is higher with the Japanese cars, but a lot of that is the lower level of novel technology in those cars.  From the onboard computer sensors like Mak was talking about to direct injection engines, the German cars tend to have more things that can go wrong.  That said, you can expect generally for BMW to be more reliable than Audi.  But if you avoid first-year and sometimes second-year models of any car, you should be fine.  My dad's sixth-year 325i, great.  My mom's third-year A6, pretty good.  My first-year A4, not so much.

If you're not going to track the car, then the BMW's advantage in handling will be limited to curvy roads and onramps.  That said, it really is quite a blast to drive, just because of the drivetrain and chassis.  With the 328xi, you will get AWD.  If you drive one and feel it's worth the extra cost, then by all means, you should get it.  It FEELS better than anything else I've driven, especially at the limit of handling.

But given the blend of AWD, sporty handling and power but not too much, and a comfortable car for long trips, I'd recommend an A4 2.0T quattro.  You'll get 31mpg on the highway, 23 around the city, and you'll have quattro and 200hp/210lbft to play with.  The shifter is not as good as the BMW's, but still good.  Put some decent performance all-seasons and you'll be fine year-round and with decent mileage on the tires.  I have had nothing but good experiences using Audis for road trips.  Also, they depreciate a fair bit, so expect lower prices than on a BMW after a few years.

If you want better reliability and lower cost of ownership at the expense of interior luxury and ride/handling balance, go for a Subaru.  The Legacy GT may be more power than you'd like (0-60 in under 6, but less than 20mpg in the city), so a smaller engine will give you decent acceleration and still get good gas mileage.  You can get either a sedan or wagon. 

If you decide AWD isn't necessary (and I personally don't think it's usually worth the lower gas mileage, increased weight with penalties in acceleration and handling, and increased cost of maintenance), then don't bother.  My dad and mom like it, and drive the A6 quattro in Dallas weather.  But FWD and good all-season tires will do you just fine in sporadic ice and snow, especially with modern traction control.  The A3 2.0T FWD I drove was fast (0-60 in mid 6's), economical (24/32 mpg), had good handling (with sport suspension), roomy (as much passenger room as the A4), and practical (hatch).  If you don't ever travel 4-up with a full trunk, you won't need more than that.

[makenzie71]

My only problem with audi is that the cars are all front biased.  Even their most sporty TT will never see more than 45% power delivered to the rear wheels.  Makes driving the Quattros no different than a front wheel drive in most cases.  I've already said as much about the subaru...but at least Audi can get their AWD cars to not torque-steer; much more than Subaru can brag about.

I'll also note that traction control is 100% shaZam!.  My f%$king ASC put me in the ditch about five weeks back...last big storm to hit Lubbock left about 3" of ice on I27 all the way from New Deal to Fritch.  Some dueschbag trying to drive too fast lost it and nearly hit me.  When I tried to evade the rear slipped a little bit and the ASC cut off the air to the engine...guess what happens when your rear wheels want to start moving at a different speed than the ground.  Couldn't correct because the ASC would kick in every time I let off the clutch and there was no way I was taking a hand off the wheel to turn the shaZam! off.  Pissed me off even more that the f%$k who nearly hit me just kept on a truckin...

[sanjay]

Things are changing with quattro, with the current RS4 and the B8 generation of A4 getting a rear bias.  But you're completely right about the front bias, which is a big reason why the 3-series is so much more fun.  However, neutral handling with a tendency to understeer at the limit is safer than oversteer, so for icy roads, I'd take the Audi.  Also, there's a difference between Torsen quattro like in the Passat 4motion and A4/6/8, and the Haldex in the A3, TT, Volvos, etc.  The Torsen is more "real-time" while the Haldex only starts working when the wheels begin to slip.  Makes the Torsen feel much more planted during hard cornering. 

But if Brian isn't going to be tracking the car, I think quattro will provide fairly fun 4-wheel slides on the occasional on-ramp while still giving good cold-weather traction. 

Is this ASC in your E36?  I drove a car with the newer DTC/DSC stuff in rain and slush, and it felt beautiful.  Here's a good video of a FWD Jag with and without traction control on ice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG3cOEW53ag

[makenzie71]

link didn't work.

I am glad to hear about a rear biased Audi. the TT I drove...I wouldhave been completely in love had it had a rear bias.

[Kasumi]

I don't know what other people thing at the moment but from what Alpha has said and described the weather in Austin, is it really worth AWD at all. 2 days out of 365 is when you MIGHT need it. Many cars manage just fine in the snow and ice with modern traction control as Sanjay said. This year we were hit by massive snows for 2-3 days and we managed to get a  FWD ford focus 1.4 out of a sloped long driveway out of the farm in 6-7 inches of snow. Sure that wasn't easy but he drove it out of there with modern traction control and it took him a few attempts but the main roads were all gritted anyway so all he had to do was get it out of the farm. It coped great. Also we had a peugot 407, they are RWD i believe and installed with a specific snowmode. You try driving that up the drive it would skid and not move, put it on snowmode it drove itself out without any pushing or anything. I think for the very few days your going to be in the snow if you are with the planet warmin up and all, that it would be a huge chunk of your annual wage taken by extra fuel costs and maintencance and tyre wear from a FWD. Look for either a FWD with good traction control if your worried, or a RWD with snow mode. Most AWD's are bias front or back anyway....

[CasiUSA]

I also just looked at the Mazdaspeed 3 and mazdaspeed 6- the 6 is AWD, and both look pretty good for the $$

[Alphamazing]

I also just looked at the Mazdaspeed 3 and mazdaspeed 6- the 6 is AWD, and both look pretty good for the $$

Yeah, but I'd have to get the Mazdaspeed version, because I refuse to buy a FWD car. The Mazdaspeed Mazda6 was one of my initial choices, but I have heard things about interior quality. I might go check it out this weekend. I am planning on test driving some of the cars this weekend, and might stop by a Lexus dealer to compare the IS250 in RWD and AWD trims, just to get an idea of the handling difference between the two set ups.

[makenzie71]

I love test-driving cars!

You won't be able to ditch the fwd even in the MS6.  You'll only see power to the rear wheels when the fronts start slipping and you'll never see a bias.

The Lexus, however, is the opposite  ...you'll only see real power up front when the rears slip and you'll NEVER see a front bias.

[MrDan]

It's probably already been mentioned (too lazy to read all 5 pages) and it's most likely too expensive .. but the Volvo S60R is a beautiful car that's a blast to drive.  If only I had the cash ...

[ledfingers]

it's still pretty easy to check the oil in e90's, no one ever listens to the salesman when they buy the car though. Its all in the OBC, you use the button on the outside of the turnsignal lever to check the oil. The e90 pushbutton start/remote key is actually very very good, the e62's have horrible key/lock systems though. Most owners of both those cars haven't the slightest clue that there is a normal key in their remote that they can take out, should the remote fail. And the remote doesn't need to have battery power in it to start the car.

[sanjay]

Oh I know about the sensor in the OBC.  But still, it's just another sensor to go wrong.  I would much rather have an analog way to check, in case the sensor fails.  If the sensor incorrectly says you're ok, then your engine is screwed.  If the sensor incorrectly says you're losing oil, then the dealership has to take care of something that otherwise was fine.  Also no gauges for temperature or fuel or battery voltage - it's just the speedo, tach, and the computer.

I guess push-button start is ok, but there are a lot of technologies that make me a bit wary.  I wouldn't mind it if an option was available, but you're forced to get run-flats and forced to have no dipstick. 

That link got taken down by BBC.  Here's another copy... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSy5tHtT1g

Brian, why are you so anti-FWD?

[makenzie71]

it's still pretty easy to check the oil in e90's, no one ever listens to the salesman when they buy the car though. Its all in the OBC, you use the button on the outside of the turnsignal lever to check the oil. The e90 pushbutton start/remote key is actually very very good, the e62's have horrible key/lock systems though. Most owners of both those cars haven't the slightest clue that there is a normal key in their remote that they can take out, should the remote fail. And the remote doesn't need to have battery power in it to start the car.

Considering my OBC is constantly telling my that the outside ambient temperature is either -35c or +55c, that my tail lights are out despite them working perfectly fine, and that I'm out of coolant no matter how much coolant is in the car, I would have a difficult time ever trusting a BMW OBC sensor to tell me the truth.

I have a hard time with my E36 and not having an oil PSI guage.  I can get over the newer ones not having temp and fuel guages.  But, though as ridiculous as it may sound, no dip-stick = I'll never own an E90.

[Alphamazing]

The Lexus, however, is the opposite  ...you'll only see real power up front when the rears slip and you'll NEVER see a front bias.

Unfortunately, the Lexus doesn't come with a manual transmission option with AWD, so it will mainly be just to see how I like the feel of AWD v. RWD.

Brian, why are you so anti-FWD?

I just hate how they drive and handle. I much prefer the way RWD cars push themselves. I realize my experience with sporty FWD cars is slightly limited, whereas I have been spoiled with some decent RWD vehicles, I'd still prefer the simplicity of RWD. Changing the clutch on a FWD vehicle is a pain in the freakin' ass.

List of vehicles I've driven:
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Tacoma
Toyota 4Runner
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Honda S2000
Mazda Miata
Ford F-150 (V8)
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang (V6)
Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
Chevrolet Cavalier
Suzuki Reno
Kia Amanti
Volvo 240 Turbo
Volvo 850 Turbo
Volvo 940 wagon

[ledfingers]

i didn't say i'd own one, i was just commenting on the fact that it is simple to check the oil on them. although the new e90 coupes are freaking gorgeous. But i'd take the mcoupe over an e90 anyday

[Alphamazing]

On this list for test drives this upcoming week:

AWD
Subaru Legacy GT (5MT)
BMW 328xi (6MT)
Mazda Mazdaspeed6 (6MT)
Audi A4 2.0T quattro (6MT)

RWD
BMW 328i (6MT)
Infiniti G35 Sport (6MT)
Lexus IS250 (6MT)

[baco99]

why not a Volvo S60 AWD?

[Alphamazing]

why not a Volvo S60 AWD?

The AWD version doesn't come with a manual transmission; and with a manual transmission, the only option is FWD.