Riding Technique: Braking in Turns?

[CndnMax]

Scratch said: "Dgyver nailed it on the head.  I'll add some: If you have to brake while already in a turn, apply the brakes gently and smoothly; abrupt braking is what will upset the bike."

Agreed - but which brake!  There has to be some physics underlying this, not just opinion... now I'm confused.... so far if I have to use front brake (I came across exactly the same corner that was proceeding nicely around a grassy knoll then came to a stop sign) I try to stand the bike up, but if , for instance, I'm going into a downhill turn and feeling uncomfortable, or avoiding the latest suicidal squirrel, I have been using back brake. 

Is the caution against front brake because newbies (me) will tend to grab at it so it's better to keep the likes of me away from it?!!

This is a great thread, enjoying everyone's answers.

as for a downhill turn i would say use the rear brake, the front brake will load the front wheel a lot more and possibly reach its traction limit. right?

[dgyver]

I pretty much never use the rear brake except when coming to a complete stop.

[toyopete]

Scratch said: "Dgyver nailed it on the head.  I'll add some: If you have to brake while already in a turn, apply the brakes gently and smoothly; abrupt braking is what will upset the bike."

Agreed - but which brake!  There has to be some physics underlying this, not just opinion... now I'm confused.... so far if I have to use front brake (I came across exactly the same corner that was proceeding nicely around a grassy knoll then came to a stop sign) I try to stand the bike up, but if , for instance, I'm going into a downhill turn and feeling uncomfortable, or avoiding the latest suicidal squirrel, I have been using back brake. 

Is the caution against front brake because newbies (me) will tend to grab at it so it's better to keep the likes of me away from it?!!

This is a great thread, enjoying everyone's answers.

Hello Canadian,
how about both brakes, and gently is the word, slamming on your back brake or front your gone,.
don't worry about the squirells worry about that suicidal Moose,..

[jp]

For braking in a turn while approaching an intersection, use both brakes smoothly. If the surface is bad, either gravel, sand, etc., then stay off the front brake and just use the rear.

If you're riding fast enough for braking to make the difference between having enough traction and wiping out, you're probably going too fast for street riding.

[ecpreston]

If you're riding fast enough for braking to make the difference between having enough traction and wiping out, you're probably going too fast for street riding.

agreed!

For those who want to do some reading that might help you better understand what's going on and how to build some skills, I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1537765-2108742?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189791831&sr=1-1

[CanadianRider]

don't worry about the squirells worry about that suicidal Moose,..

Actually, not much use worrying about the moose....    I hate it when the little chipmunkies try to become wheel fur though - so far they've all reconsidered and turned back. 

[Chuck]

+1 on RichDesmond's excellent post.  +1 also to scratch, dgyver, et al.

All braking transfers weight rear to front.  Some rear brake will squat your swingarm, and improve your wheelbase a bit, but that only serves to make your front brakes more effective.  The whole "use the rear brake to avoid loading the front" thing is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.  So use enough rear brake to squat the bike and lower your center of mass (if you wish, it's certainly not necessary), and no more.  Going downhill, your rear is already lighter than it could be.  No need to tempt fate in an already sketchy traction situation.  That said, there's usually enough traction that you can use your rear brake to scrub speed and be just fine.  It's just not your best weapon, and it will bite you hard if you overuse it.

The whole "braking OR turning" is a false dichotomy.  You can do both.  Quite a lot.  You cannot maximum brake while you're turning, and you can't full lean while you're braking.  Something close to the Pythagorean theorem will tell you how much of each you can do, but you won't be doing math on the saddle, so just try not to do too much of both.  I don't think the MSF is clear on this, but I don't think they can be.  20 hours is simply not enough time to really teach you to ride.

You have to stand up your bike to do MAXIMUM braking.  All other realistic measured braking can be done safely in conjunction with your turning.  At the track, we transition brake nearly to the apex, most riders using only the front brake, then roll on throttle for the exit.  Yes, the braking will create a stand-up tendency, but YOU control your bike, so keep it where you want it.  If you're standing up to apply the brakes, you'll eventually get killed by oncoming traffic.

Bibliography: "Total Control" by Lee Parks, "Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code, "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch.  If you think MSF was enough to keep you safe, you're asking for trouble.  Keep learning, folks.

[Rhandom]

I pretty much have this issue every day on the way home. It's important, as pointed out above to understand that if you have X traction, turning reduces it to X-T.. leaving only so much for breaking. On the way home, I have a nice hill that is moderately curvy. At first, I attempted to break down to my turning speed, etc.. in the end, after going down the hill 20 or 30  times, I typically ease on the break for most of the trip down, reducing gear etc. If you have to "STOP" while going down, you need to square up and stop straight, otherwise you'll find the road rather quickly. but for just general "i'm going down the hill and I don't want to do 100 at the bottom" Gentle breaks, Gentle turns seems to have kept me well enough so far. In the end, if it feels wrong, don't do it.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the helpful and useful replies.  Unfortunately, I don't think I made myself clear.  It seems like most of the discussion centred around cornering in turns, and the general consensus was that braking in the turn should be avoided (but if absolutely necessary use the rear brake).

I was more interested in the case where braking is required. For example, a long and steep hill ending with a big curve at a stop sign. Even with engine braking you will need to use the brake to come to a complete stop. You shouldn't downshift or brake in the turn... what do you do?

[gaspy]

+1 to Chuck, Rich, Dgyver.

The original post was specifically concerned with turning on a long, downhill road, with a stop sign at the end of a tight turn. To reiterate Chuck's point - when riding downhill you must use the front brake (of course in moderation) because most of the bike is weighted towards the nose, it being DOWNHILL. Rear brake is suitable but use it with care as it will lock up more easily now that most of the weight is loaded on the front. Combine this with the other replies - if you are at all leaned you must brake cautiously to avoid a lowside from the reduced traction available, as you are leaned. Hanging off the bike toward the inside of the turn will reduce your required lean for the same turn, and allow you to squeeze the brakes with more pressure. Note the key word here is SQUEEZE, not grab, and may be done so increasingly.

My advice to the original poster would be to 1) drop to a low gear in your approach so that the engine assists with braking, 2) brake heavily with the front, and lightly on the rear, while upright before you lean, 3) smoothly release the brakes and initiate your lean with your butt hanging off the seat towards the inside of the turn, and 4) while leaned over smoothly initiate pressure on the brakes (remember more than 70% to the front, as you are aimed downhill) to maintain your speed. 5) Slowly increase pressure on the brakes to further reduce your speed--this last step will also help you reduce your lean angle, and further allow you to increase pressure on (mainly the front) brakes . Last, before you reach the stop sign, 6) set the bike upright and brake heavily to a complete stop.

I'm a newbie, so I'm not claiming this to be an expert method, but with physical logic and my limited experience, I do think it is a sound, safe one. I originally learned this from David Hough's <em>Proficient Motorcycling</em> and <em>More Proficient Motorcycling</em> books. I greatly recommend these. As a newbie and learning rider I have found them to be excellent resources, and I'm sure more experienced riders will find them useful as well.

-G

[nightrider]

You shouldn't have to brake in a turn. accelerating through a turn is ideal. if it's all downhill, i just engine brake/coast.

the back brake is really prone to skidding. even in a leaning turn with no room to straighten, I'd still try to use the front brake more.

[Chuck]

You shouldn't have to brake in a turn. If you do, you've focked it up already.

This is not true at all.  That was my whole point.  (You want to tell the guy while he's going downhill not to use his brakes because it's too late??  He'll just go faster and faster until he flings off the roadway.)  That's why you have to ride understanding the physics of your ride instead of relying on dogma and memorized slogans.  Trail braking for example, is very effective in corners, and is part of a superior cornering strategy that upsets the suspension far less then a step-1 step-2 step-3 approach to cornering.

When you're a beginner, learning the steps by rote is a good way to get started because it's easier to remember them while concentrating on 100 other things.  Eventually you have to grow out of that, and learn what's really happening.  If you have excessive confidence in your "training" (as if the MSF BRC is training) you'll wind up on the wrong side of the dead/alive continuum.

I could launch into a discussion about braking vs cornering traction now, but there's no point.  This article says it way better than I can put into words myself: http://www.msgroup.org/TIP219.html.

[Chuck]

You shouldn't have to brake in a turn. accelerating through a turn is ideal. if it's all downhill, i just engine brake/coast.

the back brake is really prone to skidding. even in a leaning turn with no room to straighten, I'd still try to use the front brake more.

My reply doesn't really make sense to your newly edited post, but I'll leave my rant for posterity's sake, and the good link. 

[nightrider]

You shouldn't have to brake in a turn. accelerating through a turn is ideal. if it's all downhill, i just engine brake/coast.

the back brake is really prone to skidding. even in a leaning turn with no room to straighten, I'd still try to use the front brake more.

My reply doesn't really make sense to your newly edited post, but I'll leave my rant for posterity's sake, and the good link. 

This man is crazy. I dont know what he's talking about...

jk chuck. You sent me those fork tube end caps once. I will always remember that. 

[CanadianRider]

Well, I'm glad I covered myself by saying better answers would follow - because they did.  I consulted my personal riding/physics guru today who said Rich's post (of course excluding the remark about how terrible my terrible advice was) was absolutely correct and well expressed.  And others have reinforced it and given more information.

I withdraw my post!  And sincere thanks to you all for a valuable lesson.

[frankieG]

Also look where you want to go and not where you are going. This has saved my butt many times

[spc]

I genuinely try to not brake in/through a turn, but I will admit it has happened.  I was being a moron and came into a turn ending in a stop sign WAY too hot.  I kept my focus and applied smooth, even pressure on both brakes until I could get straight up and start knocking speed off with the engine.  Stupid move on my part overall

[ohgood]

I don't brake in turns. I brake before the turn, then accelerate out. Here's my take:

If this is a particular road you travel daily, ride it slower. You should only need easy downshifts with very light braking in what you've described. Light front AND rear brake should be fine. If it isn't, you're riding too fast generally.

Now then, lets say you're out exploring and the road has poor signage. You're too hot, and the intersection is blind, at the bottom of a steep hill, in a decreasing radius turn. With goats in the road. And greased pigs. And people tossing trolls. And squirrels OH SNAP !

Seriously, upon realizing you're too hot, drag a LITTLE rear, start righting the bike, and as soon as possible (the bike is right or very near vertical) apply as heavy a brake as possible. If you veer into the center of the road, without passing the stop sign and still stop it's cool. Hopefully you weren't riding like a crack head and you can actually stop.

Keep in mind I have -zero- hours on the track, and have likely only used 60-75% of my gs's possible traction so far. The few times I've encountered crap in the road I've been fine. Luck ? Skill  ? Less of the latter I'm sure. I do ride conservatively and keep tire pressure monitored, along with a once over for loose things before KSU.

Keep us posted.

[gs500f-gaz]

Better option - drop a gear lower than usual on approach, so engine holds you at reasonable speed as you go in.  However I have used gentle application of back brake on these corners (gentle being key word - no slamming it on) with success.

Sorry, but this is terrible advice. Rear brake in a hard corner is the shortest route to the ER. You will do much beter using the front brake.
The trick is to realize that you have a certain amount of total traction available. If you're on the brakes extremly hard you have no extra traction available to turn. Conversely, if you're cornering at max lean, then there's no traction left to brake. In between, you can trade one for the other. In the car world they call this the "friction circle", it's essentially a vector plot were the sum of the forces equals a constant.
If you're needing to brake while turning you've got most of the weight up front, so that's where your traction is. There's very little on the rear, so it's going to get very touchy and easy to lock up. If you lock it while you have any significant lean angle, you're done.
As practical matter, on the street it's best to get your braking done and your corner speed set BEFORE you enter the turn.
[/quote]

this is rubbish, if you press the front brake the bike will straighten its self up or low side you if your leaning over far. use back brake to shave of a little speed, but you shouldnt need to if you plan for the corner ahead.

[CndnMax]

Info From "Sport Riding Technique":
"What if i get in the corner too hot? Keep your eyes focused on where you want the bike to go,
and continue to trail-brake. As your speed comes down, your radius will tighten, allowing you to
stand the bike up--that means you can brake even harder. never give up on the brakes when your
entrance speed it too high."



**Never exceed your tractions limit: lean angle and road condition will dictate how much tractions you actually have. 

[frankieG]

Braking or not always look to where you want to go and not where you are going