OT: The most incredible film I have ever seen.

[dmp221]

Jeez-O-Peez what a thread this has turned into...it's interesting that, as an online community, we have all been generally so very cohesive and supportive of each other (like that great idea for everyone to send a thank-you post card to someone who helped one of us out of a jam..); and without really knowing each other, this mutual respect and support based solely on a common interest (motorcycling, and the GS in particular)...and yet, the moment a passionate, emotional OT subject arises, the fragmentation begins.  

I just hope that, whatever our individual political and social viewpoints, we can continue the mutual respect and support that makes this community unique.

Finally (phew!!) yes, I do believe Marvin Gaye was shot...which makes his musical view of skepticism no less relevant.  So many times, "facts" especially concerning political and social issues, turn out to be half-truths or complete fabrications.  Things are seldom as they appear on the surface.  Peace & friendship to all of you.

[JohnNS]

I think the fact that this thread has gone the way it has says something good about this board. Most of the other ones I've ever visited seem to turn into stupid flame wars when it comes to things like this. That's why they usually just lock political or "hot" topics.

It's nice to see we can have a civilized debate about serious issues too, and a little debate is a healthy thing.  



John

[Piper5177]

I think that this hasn't turned into a flame war due to the demographic that rides a GS500 in the first place.  We aren't the type of people who are impulsive and make decisions to impress someone, hell if that were the case I would have bought a GSXR.  I think most of the people here usually think about something rationally before they do it. ........usually :nana:

[Seth]

to be fair seth, you're confusing the roman republic time frame with that of the empire. completely different things. roman as a station of power around for 1000 years, sure, i'll give you that. but not the empire

You're right, sorry I misphrased my initial comment.

[Gisser]

So.  The gun control issue materializes and suddenly there's another work place shooting spree--this time in Chicago.  Bad timing for the American way.  Don't know if this latest depressed loser used a handgun or a rifle but I've heard that the difference between these two types of firearms is a hacksaw.  Otherwise, I would agree that handguns don't serve the purpose of the 2nd Amendment very well.  Problem is, you give an inch they'll take a mile.  

And, events in Iraq seem to prove that firearms in the hands of a determined foe can wreak havoc on the mighty American military.  Because, one only needs to win the political war.  Of course, it all depends on how much free reign the U.S. military is given to crush its opposition.  Wasn't that long ago that the U.S. Air Force was allowed to carry out nuclear strikes on enemy population centers to achieve total victory.  

However, in the event of a future totalitarian American Government, I'm sure the domestic opposition of American firearm owners can count on the full support of today's international coalition of fake peaceniks to hamstring Government forces.  Right?

Discussion is good, though.  I am curious what social benefits I could expect to receive were I to relocate to a more "progressive" country such as...Canada, for instance.  I know some of the cost:  Double the price per gallon of gas.  A 42% devaluation in the monetary unit.  What are my benefits, Canada?  Are you going to pay my college education?  Are you going to put a roof over my head?  AM I GOING TO GET A FREE LUNCH?

[glenn9171]

I think today's problems with society is parenting...or lack thereof.  There is no discipline involved in raising most of today's children.  When I was young (I'm 31 now) I knew that I had serious trouble waiting for me if I did anything bad at school.  When I went to the store with my parents, I knew I had better not scream and run around like a lunatic.  I was punished if I did so.  I was not "beaten" but I was spanked.  This taught me right from wrong.  I see so many "parents" in the mall whose children get their way just because the parent doesn't want to discipline their children.  This trains the child that they should get their way all of the time and that there are no negative repercussions for doing wrong.  Over the span of years like this, teens think they deserve to get whatever they want.  Lack of morals and structure allows them to do whatever they want to get their way.

If someone pisses them off, they simply eliminate that person.  Afterall, they have no knowledge of punishment for their actions.  If parents were held responisble for their minor children's actions, they would start keeping their children in line.  

Some kids around here were caught vandalizing a half-built subdivision.  They did over $200,000 worth of damage.  The courts made their parents pay the bill since the kids (13-15 years old) had no source of income.  I know my child would not see the light of day until that was paid off.  And when he was old enough to get a job, he would certainly be paying me back for his stupidity.

Lack of discipline growing up leads to lack of respect towards others.  Lack of personal respect  leads to violence and other crimes towards others.

I think every law-abiding adult should be required to carry a gun at all times.  How many school shooting do you think we would have if you knew that 100% of the adults in that school had a gun?  How many banks would be robbed if you knew every single person in line behind you carried a gun?  

Also tougher punishment for violent criminals are needed most.  The people that commit violent crimes know that in most cases, prison is the worst that will happen to them.  Cable TV and 3 healthy meals a day.  That's better than a lot of these people have at home.  Put them in a small cell with no windows.  No contact with anyone.  Basic food to keep you alive.  Murderers get one appeal soon after being convicted.  After that, it's time for capitol punishment.  No waiting on death row for 20 years living on my tax money.  If people had punishment worth fearing, they would commit less crimes.  But the Liberals would never allow this to happen.

[Rich500]

Discussion is good, though. I am curious what social benefits I could expect to receive were I to relocate to a more "progressive" country such as...Canada, for instance. I know some of the cost: Double the price per gallon of gas. A 42% devaluation in the monetary unit. What are my benefits, Canada? Are you going to pay my college education? Are you going to put a roof over my head? AM I GOING TO GET A FREE LUNCH?

Well Gisser, Canada isnt perfect, but we try not too let our people starve to death while the rest of us get obese, we make sure our seniors are cared for, we have a health care system that provides nearly equal treatment for the poorest person, to the richest, in my opinion racism is not nearly as prevalant. If you were struggling we would put a roof over your head, and im sure you could score a free lunch from a good majority of our beautiful countries 32 million residents.  We might be damn near socialist, but Im sure if we had  265million people living in Canada with a tax base that large, we would help the world out a little, not make it our Buddha Loves You. Oh and I will pay high gas prices any day of the week if it means an innocent family in the middle east doesnt have to lose a son to an unnecsisary war. I love America as much as the next non american does(is that positive or negative?) but I love living in a country where I feel safe walking down the street in armani and prada at 2:00 in the morning without being jacked. Im sorry all you republican, right wing people, a mixed (socialist/democratic) society works pretty well as far as I am concerned. God Bless a country where you can live so free. The system is flawwed but as close to perfect as anyone besides Sweden had got it.  

PS: Why dont we rag on a really shaZam! country, rather than one who supplies the you with water, electricity, and countless other resources you all have exausted in that oh so powerful nation. DAmn, give Canada a few million soldiers and a huge Navy, and we would have you guys bent over like a white collar criminal in a blue collar prison.

PEACE

[Jeff P]

Give me a break.  No one starves to death in the US, that's just stupid.

Your health care system is universal, that's great, but it comes at the expense of quality, timeliness, and innovation.  Oh yeah and if every country had price controls on the drugs that you guys do, there wouldn't be any drugs.  On behalf of the US citizens who pay realistic prices for drugs and subsidize you freeloaders, you're welcome.

The only people without a roof over their heads in this country are those who choose to do so.  Same goes for food.  There are shelters, soup kitchens, free clinics, etc all over the place.  The differnece is here we don't pay outrageous taxes so the gov't can supply it for everyone.  Here that's supplied by a combination of gov't, community groups, and churches.  Oh and those who actually get themselves educated and get jobs actually take on the responsibility of providing these things for themselves.  novel idea.

Go to Sweden and read the news stories about how they have to change their socialist policies on medical leave because such a huge number of people are freeloading with bogus medical problems.  

"give Canada a few million soldiers and a huge Navy".  Sorry chief nobody "gave" us ours, we built it.  If you want one, build it yourself.

Fact is the only way countries like yours can get away with your socialist policies is because countries like ours do all the heavy lifting.  We're the ones who send troops to places that need them, we're the ones making all the technological and scientific innovations, we're the ones who provide the foriegn aid, we're the ones who get called in to solve all the world's problems even when they're not ours.  

jeff

[RedFuelDlux]

Ok, this has gotten way out of hand. What started as a statement of someone's skewed view has turned into a US vs. Canada pissing contest. I wasn't going to get involved, but some of the comments I read were made by someome either being stubborn, uneducated, or just plain dumb.

First off, being a red blooded American, I was appauled to see some of the critisms in this post. I'm the first to say the US is not perfect, but (And this is a big but) we are infact the most generous. Our National Debt grows each day. Not just from the war in Iraq, but from spending hundreds of millions in aid to smaller third-world countries each day.  WE've given Trillions of dollars in disaster aid as well as relief from famine and disease over the years.

We're usually the first, and sometimes to only country to send our young soldiers off to fight and die for other countries conflicts. And you say we're the most aggressive? Maybe you recall a couple of Wars by the name of World Wars I and II ? In the second war, we had our hands full with the Japanese but decided to split our military to help Europe with the Nazis. There is no doubt that if we had turned our backs, we would all be speaking German right now.Even Canada. And what about the Korean war? That's just a few instances. There are many more.... Do yourselfs a favor and read up on a little history.

The fact is Canada should thank there lucky stars that they are our neighbors. Due to my business , I frequent Canada often. What I've seen is a nation obsessed with the American lifestyle. 80% of all Television programing is made up of American shows and commercials. Over 60% of all commercial products used are from the US. The Canadian economy almost solely depends on the US market. Which only makes up around 3% of the products the US consumes.

How much aid does Canada contribute? And what about Military aid? God forbid Canada evers gets invaded. With a meager armed force roughly totally 90,000, who do you think they will ask for help? Actually you probably won't even have to ask. America will be there for you. Would you do the same for us? We practically have to beg to get your assistance on any military conflict for fears that you may piss someone off.

Try reading an article from one of your own sons...

Commentary by Gordon Sinclair.
Originally written for a Toronto newspaper, it was broadcast on June 5, 1973 on CFRB radio in Toronto, Canada.

America: The Good Neighbor.  
 

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the  Americans as the most generous and possibly the least  appreciated people on all the earth.  Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and  Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the  Americans who poured in billions of dollars and  forgave other billions in debts. None of these  countries is today paying even the interest on its  remaining debts to the United States.  

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their  reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets  of Paris. I was there. I saw it.  

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59  American communities were flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.  The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the  decadent, warmongering Americans.  

I'd like to see just one of those countries that  is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country  in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo  Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?  If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the  International lines except Russia fly American Planes?  Why does no other land on earth even consider putting  a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese  technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German  technocracy, and you get automobiles.  You talk about American technocracy, and you find  men on the moon -! not once, but several times -  and safely home again.  You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs  right in the store window for everybody to look at.  Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American  dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India  were breaking down through age, it was the Americans  who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and  the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an  old caboose. Both are still broke.  I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced  to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name  me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside  help even during the San Francisco earthquake.   Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one  Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get  kicked around. They will come out of this thing with  their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled  to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating  over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of  those."  

-G.Sinclair


I'm now climbing down from my soap box. I hope this was insightful and educating.
Sincerely,

J.Jones
RedFuelDlux

God Bless America

[The Buddha]

Big snip...
DAmn, give Canada a few million soldiers and a huge Navy, and we would have you guys bent over like a white collar criminal in a blue collar prison.

PEACE

I love it when Canadians say this.... They can get by without the expense of having a navy or airforce or Army or marines...cos they know the US will never let anything happen to them from external sources...All they have to do is be pacifists and provide the US with a little electricity or water (as they claim)...
Cool.
Srinath.

[The Buddha]

Big snip...

When the railways of France, Germany and India  were breaking down through age, it was the Americans  who rebuilt them.
-G.Sinclair

Small Snip...

I now climbing down from my soap box. I hope this was insightful and educating.
Sincerely,

J.Jones
RedFuelDlux

I honestly dont remember rail roads being rebuilt by americans in India. However when we had serious floods in the south back in the 70's I remember buying Kraft cheese and cans of celery and other soup which were given as aid (but somehow our government made us pay for it???) but it was pretty inexpensive.
Cool.
Srinath.

[JohnNS]

Oh yeah? Just wait 'till we unleash the secret stealth attack beavers on you guys!  

RedFuelDlux mentioned that most of our television programming comes from the US, and this is very true. If you've ever seen Canadian tv shows you'd understand why!    I think the fact that we get so many US channels  is a good part of the reason why some Canadians have such a skewed view of the USA. How often do you see a POSITIVE story about anything on the news? It's doom and gloom that sells.  If all we see of the US is the bad side (ie the news) then people might get the impression it sucks.

Now obviously, people are free to draw their own conclusions, and anybody with a modicum of intelligence knows what they see on the news doesn't represent the whole of a country...but I think that may have something to do with some Canadian's attitude towards the USA.

As for the ,who has done more for whom, and who's been the better "earth tenant", it's just silly to argue about that. Canada has done great things, as has the US. Getting into "oh yeah, well WE did this!" "well we did that!" is just pointless...and for the record, Canadians fought and died in Korea too.

Canada is a great country, it has it's problems, but on the whole it's a wonderful place to live. The United States is also a great country, it also has it's problems, but it's obviously a great place to live too. Americans are probably the most patriotic people in the world, if the US was  a horrible place, do you really think they'd be like that?  

In the grand scheme of things, we have it pretty good here in Canada AND the US compared to a good chunk of the world. We've come a long way in spite of what goes on day to day. As messed up as our world seems to be sometimes, remember that it wasn't so long ago that people here were often killed just because of the colour of their skin. Go back further in time across "the pond" and they used to publicly torture and dismember people in front of thousands of cheering residents. In spite of how bad things seem, we ARE making progress.  

Ultimately, we're all in this together.  

John

[Jeff P]

nice post John  

[KevinC]

Wow, this has gone bad!

But this is just plane (sic) wrong!

"Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?"  RedFuelDlux

Have you ever heard of Airbus? You know, the aircraft company the US governement accuses of unfair trade practices because they are huge competition for the militarily supported Boeing? They make very nice planes, and are used extensively world wide. They are also presently building the next generation of large passenger plane that Boeing is not pursuing. 555 passengers.

http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/about/index_h.asp

Wow, the DC10 and Tristar are obsolete, and being removed from service. The Chinese will be the ones to return to the moon.

[KevinC]

COLIN MOCHRIE APOLOGIZES ON OUR BEHALF  
 On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America.
We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry.

I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron but, it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defense I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.

I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I notice you've rebuilt it! It's Very Nice.

I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but, we Feel your Pain.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this.
We've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

Thank you.

Real Audio live recording of above: Mochrie Live

http://www.22minutes.com/realwrapper.php?target=apology_256.rm

[dmp221]

I think today's problems with society is parenting...or lack thereof.  

Exactly...by the age of 4 or 5, a child's basic values should be well founded, and then fine-tuned by good parents/teachers/clergy/other positive role models.  

Since you need a license to fish, a license to own a dog, a license to drive, etc etc., I'd require a "parenting license"...with a lengthy application, background check, and a test (assuming of course I was elected king).. :lol:

It's easy to criticize, but I think Canada is a very good neighbor to us, as we are to them.  Overall, we could both do a lot worse; and we both have a lot of things to fix.
BTW, The bogus movie that started all this still sucks...in my humble opinion.  

[The Buddha]

I knew I'd hear this "hour has 22 minutes"...I knew you were going to be the one to say it too...Canadian TV programming is actually very very good...pity the US doesn't seem to have a appreciation for biting wit or sarcasm or pickle up your butt humor, When John Belushi type drunken brawling is considered funny the scythe like John Morgan is lost in the noise. Lovely...BTW I happen to like watery beer...But if you dont, I dont see why you can buy Grolsh or heineken or fosters.
Cool.
Srinath.

[Laura]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it doesn't seem like Canada was getting ragged on that badly. And I agree that the U.S. has problems, but I don't think we are nearly as horrible as most of the rest of the world thinks. I also don't think we are as perfect as some people say.

But honestly, I think people who don't live in the United States have a rather skewed opinion about the crime here. (Probably from watching all those violent American movies that people from all over the world seem to be eager to watch.) Yes, we have too much crime. But I think you could walk down the street in your Armani and Prada in practically anyplace in the U.S. at any time of the day or night and you wouldn't be jacked. Of course, there are also A FEW areas in the U.S. I wouldn't go near day or night. As a woman, I have never felt uncomfortable walking alone anywhere in my city, even at night. And that is more than I can say for a lot of places I've traveled outside the U.S., where women were advised not to walk alone, even in broad daylight.

Also, I couldn't care less what you wear, but as an American, I couldn't mention wearing Armani or Prada without being ragged on for being materialistic and don't I know that there are people starving in the world.

Also, not to minimize the racism problems here, it seems like racism is a problem most anywhere in the world where different groups of people are trying to live together. And I think slowly but surely, things are improving here.

I really don't think anyone starves here unless they are anorexic. And obesity is equal opportunity here.

I'll shut up now.

[Laura]

JohnNS,

Nice post. I started feeling all warm and fuzzy inside  :kiss:

UNTIL

some damn Canadian felt he had to insult our beer. NOW my panties are really in a bunch.  :x I'll admit Miller and Budweiser beers aren't so good, but we have great beer here in Wisconsin. MMMmmm. And I've had some good beers in Colorado, and some good beers from Washington too.

[JohNLA]

I saw Bowling back when it came out.
When I first saw it and I wanted to get rid of all handguns but in reflection it really does not show both sides of the coin.
I do not own a gun or feel the need to carry one in my wonderful city that does not always love me(LA) but I would not take away the rights of those who do need a weapon to feel safe. I am not a very small or a woman and I do not know what it is like to feel vulnerable and I hear for some that carrying a weapon helps.
I would not dare take away there right to do so because some jerk kid decides he is going to show the world how mad he is by shooting up his school. There will always be morons with weapons and I think banning them will only incite more, less violent crime.
Imagine how many more home break-ins there are in countries with hand gun bans.
my .02