New GS, engine seized. Diary of Rebuild/Testing - LOTS OF PICS!!!!!

[beRto]

I dropped the cylinders off at the machine shop this morning, and he said it didn't look like a hone would clean up the damage.  He is going to try and then call me later today.  He said he also might have a line on oversized pistons for cheaper than the Suzuki parts.  So if things go well I should be able to get it back within a week!

I don't think anyone thought honing would be enough... given the apparent extent of damage, the question was whether-or-not boring would be sufficient! Hopefully the oversized piston option will work out for you. 

I'm just curious as to how the reassmbly will go with the rods still attached to the crank?  Any time I've seen an engine reassmbled, the pistons and rods are put into the cylinders then tightened on the crank?  Any suggestions?

I don't think you'll have any problems here. I've rebuilt a few snowmobiles and scooters and I've always just compressed the piston rings and then slid each piston into its cylinder. I've never had to use one, but it may help to have a piston ring compressor tool. An assistant to hold the cylinder block might be useful too! I'm sure others will give advice on quirks specific to the GS reassembly.

[sledge]

I dropped the cylinders off at the machine shop this morning, and he said it didn't look like a hone would clean up the damage.  He is going to try and then call me later today.  He said he also might have a line on oversized pistons for cheaper than the Suzuki parts.  So if things go well I should be able to get it back within a week!

I don't think anyone thought honing would be enough... given the apparent extent of damage, the question was whether-or-not boring would be sufficient! Hopefully the oversized piston option will work out for you. 

I'm just curious as to how the reassmbly will go with the rods still attached to the crank?  Any time I've seen an engine reassmbled, the pistons and rods are put into the cylinders then tightened on the crank?  Any suggestions?

I don't think you'll have any problems here. I've rebuilt a few snowmobiles and scooters and I've always just compressed the piston rings and then slid each piston into its cylinder. I've never had to use one, but it may help to have a piston ring compressor tool. An assistant to hold the cylinder block might be useful too! I'm sure others will give advice on quirks specific to the GS reassembly.

Agreed,
A ring compressor and an extra pair of hands make things far easier and safer when you are dealing with a block that has 2 or more cylinders.

At the risk of stating the obvious......dont forget to fit the base gasket first. You would be surprized at the number of people concerned about getting the pistons in the block who overlook it.

[utgunslinger13]

Would that base gasket be something that I could reuse from the original teardown since it was a metallic gasket not the crappy paper gasket?  No one thinks it will be difficult to slide the piston in and then connect the rods while lowering it on the studs?

[sledge]

Would that base gasket be something that I could reuse from the original teardown since it was a metallic gasket not the crappy paper gasket?  No one thinks it will be difficult to slide the piston in and then connect the rods while lowering it on the studs?

Your service manual will describe the best way to refit the pistons.

I dont believe in reusing any gaskets if it can be avoided..........however I am sure plenty of people will chime in and say "Yes you can" and "I have done it before and never had a problem" etc etc etc ...................the choice is yours.

[utgunslinger13]

Yeah my manual is in the mail, tracking said it left Las Vegas this morning at 9 a.m. but it won't be delivered till monday?  I was hoping to get it before this weekend, but I don't think I will have the cylinders back before then with the new pistons anyway so I might just work on something else this weekend!

[utgunslinger13]

This might be a silly question, but when I called the local suzuki dealership I was told the piston and ring set cost 90 dollars, and I needed two!  Am I reading the above wrong?  Doesn't a Piston Set mean there are 2 pistons?  So my thoughts would be I need to order 1 of #17-1, 2 of #15, and 4 of #16? for a total of $92.09!  He's trying to charge me $180!

[utgunslinger13]

Scratch that!  Total price I was quoted at another dealership was 250!

[beRto]

This might be a silly question, but when I called the local suzuki dealership I was told the piston and ring set cost 90 dollars, and I needed two!  Am I reading the above wrong?  Doesn't a Piston Set mean there are 2 pistons?  So my thoughts would be I need to order 1 of #17-1, 2 of #15, and 4 of #16? for a total of $92.09!  He's trying to charge me $180!

Sorry, I left out the headings. The quantity column represents the quantity required, not the quantity included for that price.

In this case, piston set means piston & rings.

Get it all priced out and then decide if its worthwhile, compared to the cost of a replacement engine. Based on Mr. Cycles for reference, it looks like approx $160 + taxes + machine work

$180 sounds about right for the brand new parts.

[utgunslinger13]

Damn, okay. I'm not willing to spend almost what I bought the bike for on rebuilding the engine!  So now my two options are the links to cylinders you posted earlier.  What would be the best out of the following?

1.) buy the auction selling just the cylinders and have them honed and rering the pistons I currently have (which the machinist said were ok) - 25+shipping, rings, and honing.
2.) buy the auction selling piston/cylinder combo and have them honed and reringed - 50+shipping, rings and honing

Thanks,

Nick

[ben2go]

I would go with option #1.

[The Buddha]

It is very likely that a bored and honed and hand fitted with new rings motor will seal up better, use lesser oil and live longer and better than one that already has wear and you wanna throw in old pistons in ... Stock rings are not very stiff, and stock bores are notorious for being at the high end of the spec when new. Boring honing and hand fitting rings will make a huge difference.
Cool.
Buddha.

[utgunslinger13]

but will it make as much of a difference to cover the 400+ cost of the work?  I can't justify that in my head as much as I keep telling myself "newer is better".

[Mandres]

I don't think it's worth the extra cost at all.  If you were going for a maximum performance racebike then maybe, but it would still be a hard sell for me.

I would go with option #1 also.  If your guy checked out the pistons and approved then go ahead and reuse them.  Looking at Bikebandit.com the rings are $26.28 per set (need 2) the wrist pins are $8.21 each (need 2) and the circlips are $.76 each (need 4). 

Other than a gasket set and various fluids I'm pretty sure that's it as far as parts.  Go ahead and grab a $5 metric feeler gauge from the autoparts store while you're spending money; you'll need it to measure ring gap and valve clearance.   

Re: installing the cylinder, the pistons go on the rods first and then the cylinder is lowered down as you feed the pistons into the bore. 

[utgunslinger13]

I don't think it's worth the extra cost at all.  If you were going for a maximum performance racebike then maybe, but it would still be a hard sell for me.

I would go with option #1 also.  If your guy checked out the pistons and approved then go ahead and reuse them.  Looking at Bikebandit.com the rings are $26.28 per set (need 2) the wrist pins are $8.21 each (need 2) and the circlips are $.76 each (need 4). 

Other than a gasket set and various fluids I'm pretty sure that's it as far as parts.  Go ahead and grab a $5 metric feeler gauge from the autoparts store while you're spending money; you'll need it to measure ring gap and valve clearance.   

Re: installing the cylinder, the pistons go on the rods first and then the cylinder is lowered down as you feed the pistons into the bore. 

I agree completely, if I was doing something other than just restoring it to stock and putzing around town to save gas then I would think about boring/OS pistons. But seeing as I paid 400 total for the bike, I can't bring myself to spend 400 on the parts and machine work on the cylinders.

Last night I picked up the cylinder on ebay and paid right away. I am going to check suzuki dealership for parts/time frame and compare with Bikebandit.com and see which can get it here quicker.  For the rings, I'm hoping the machinist will be the one putting them in so I won't have to worry about the gaps?  Or am I wrong in that aspect?

As for the reassmbly, thanks for the enlightenment!  Thats the way I was hoping they would go in since I won't have to tear apart the bottom end.  Will I need a ring compressor or should it just be a tight fit?

Thanks,

Nick

[beRto]

... but I love seeing fresh machine work

Oh well, your logic makes sense. Either way, you owe it to us (your loyal fans) to continue the detailed photo log! 

Good luck with the rebuild!

[utgunslinger13]

I'm a camera whore. I hate being in pictures, but love to take them!  So no worries on that.  It just might be awhile before I can get anymore work done due to waiting on parts in the mail (THATS THE WORST).  I might however start working on cleaning up the grime and crud on the engine case to prepare for repainting. If I do, I will make sure to start a new thread with progress pics.

[beRto]

I'm a camera whore. I hate being in pictures, but love to take them!  So no worries on that.  It just might be awhile before I can get anymore work done due to waiting on parts in the mail (THATS THE WORST).  I might however start working on cleaning up the grime and crud on the engine case to prepare for repainting. If I do, I will make sure to start a new thread with progress pics.

OK, I'm happy again!

[utgunslinger13]

I do what I can!   

[Trwhouse]

Hi Nick,
Man, what a mess you got yourself into!  At least it sounds like you are having fun with it, and that's important. And you are learning, too.
On the ring gaps...
A good machinist will ask you to bring him/her all the needed parts for a bore or hone or whatever. The parts they will need include the cylinder head, pistons and new ring sets. You can also take the piston pins if they want to measure them. If they were building the engine for you, they'd measure the rod ends etc., too.
They need to first measure the pistons and that will determine whether they will fit the used cylinders that you have. If the bores in the used cylinders are within spec to be used with the pistons you removed from your rusty engine, then you are in good shape. But if the bores are too big or small for the pistons, then you will need to bore the cylinders and go to larger new pistons (expensive and I know you are trying to avoid it).
If the stars line up and your used cylinders magically will work with your pistons, that will be cool.
The machinist will want your new rings to be brought with the pistons and cylinders because they push the rings into the cylinders (WITHOUT BEING ON THE PISTONS) and then they can measure the ring end gaps -- the space between the ring ends when the rings are inside the cylinders. A bore that is too large means the end gaps are too large and will leak intake and exhaust charges, while gaps that are too small can allow the rings to bind and snap, and you don't want that happening inside the engine.
Again, since these are not the cylinders from your engine and they weren't originally matched to the pistons in your engine, you'll just have to see what all the parts measurements show you.
I hope it all works out for you.
Best wishes,
Todd
P.S. This is why I think it's always better to pay more for a quality bike than pay too much for a rough bike and have to invest lots more to make it all right.
There are two schools of thought on this, as you know.

Good luck and have fun with it, bub!

[utgunslinger13]

Thank you for the input, I do normally agree however when I purchased the bike I was looking for a project and this was a little ruffer than I first thought it was.  I am loving getting this far into the rebuild and I'm not looking at how much I'm spending to rebuild but looking at it as a learning experience.  If the cylinders/pistons/rings don't match up I wont be extremly disapointed and I'll just have to purchase the more expensive parts later.  I would just like to try to settle this for the cheapest way possible.

Thanks,

Nick