Who are you voting for, for President?

[quiktaco]

I agree on the welfare issues.  There are some people out there that actually need it.  However, I don't think not being able to find daycare for their kids is a good enough reason.  My wife can only work part time because of that, and for the 1 day a week that she works on the weekdays, her mom watches our daughter.  It's tough, so where's my free money?  We make it work because we have to.  They don't make it work because they can get away with it, and get free handouts.  I think there should be a major reform to welfare, and I'd guess that it would get cut to about 10-15% of what it is now, for people that deserve it.  And also cut the amount that these people get.  You can have adequate food and housing for less than 500 a month.  And that's even being generous.  Share an apartment with people and rent goes way down, and food (for the amount that is needed) for 1 person, can easily be less than 50 dollars a month.

I agree with you on the corporate bail outs....that's something that everyone who was involved should go to prison for.  However, the constitution says that the government can spend money for the general welfare of the nation, but I don't see how these bailouts will help. They'll just be lowering the value of the dollar.

The government shouldn't really be 'helping' anyone.  They should be there as a governing head, and regulate our defenses.  Other than that, it should be the states responsibilities for everything else.

Republicans have really only led us into 2 wars in middle east.  Most of the other wars were under democrats, check it out.

Under Bush, the government received 20% more revenue (5% if you take into account inflation), than Clinton did.  The only reason why it seemed worse, was because of 9/11.  If Clinton did so much better for the government with his policies, then why did the government receive less?

And I don't get why people keep saying that it's going to be more of the same with McCain.  He is our fathers' ideal democrat.  Back 30-40 some years ago he would have been a great ticket on the democrat side.  And if Obama, the super liberal wasn't running, then McCain's liberal views wouldn't be overshadowed by the extreme liberal views of Obama.

The only thing that would come to an end if you vote democrat, is your paycheck, and your freedom.  But if you don't really care about those...VOTE DEMOCRAT, IT'S EASIER THAN WORKING.

[The Buddha]

So why are the 2 major parties keeping the libertarian and others out of the debates ... WTF ... the 2 party system has to be tossed out. However libertarians to implement anything of their ideas, need a 10-30 year time frame. We have 4 years of going in one direction, then 4 years od the opposite, then 4 more years in a third direction, and then back the otrher way ... WTF ...
Cool.
Buddha.

[quiktaco]

Just to add something.  Both McCain and Palin fought against republicans to get things reformed.  They succeeded, and it was for the better.  These two are a lot more middle of the road than the democrats try to make them out to be.

[quiktaco]

So why are the 2 major parties keeping the libertarian and others out of the debates ... WTF ... the 2 party system has to be tossed out. However libertarians to implement anything of their ideas, need a 10-30 year time frame. We have 4 years of going in one direction, then 4 years od the opposite, then 4 more years in a third direction, and then back the otrher way ... WTF ...
Cool.
Buddha.

Yeah, exactly.  It would be nice to have the libertarians involved more, and maybe a lot more of the right stuff would get done.

[frankieG]

man your ignorance is outstanding.   we are talking about today and today is Iraq, which was and is completely unjustified.  to say democrats will take your money  is nonsense. the republicans have spent us into oblivion.  as for freedom, what the hell does that mean?  American freedom is a myth.  you go to jail here for nothing of sorts.  we have more people in jail per capital than any other nation. we execute the mentally ill and teens.   as for 9/11 and money you have to look at the republic connection to Saudi Arabia.  the Saudis are NOT an ally.  bin laden is a Saudi, all but 2 of the 9/11 boys were Saudis.  the money for terrorism comes from Saudi Arabia more than every where else.   bush , his cronies and family have supported the Saudis for decades and thus have indirectly supported bin laden.  why do you think he is still out there?  at least Saddam and his sons had the balls to stand and fight. well maybe not so much Saddam. 

as for the welfare system.  children are everything and republicans(which is admirable) are all for family.  i am not talking about free anything that is something u dropped in here.  but if you don't have your children taken care of and safe while you are at work then no respecting adult will seek or go to work.   corporate bail outs and going to jail is another nonsensical post.  i did not say anything about criminal behaviour.  i  was talking about and wrote that the republican government is giving billions to bail out companies who made bad loans.  the companies made billions at the time so why can't they pay for it now?  the answer is corporate greed. paying executives and republican politicians.    so how can republicans or their supporters call democrats "tax and spend" when the republicans spend billions in shady deal corporations,  illegal wars and friends like mercenaries like black-water.  you say under bush the government got 25% more revenue.  where did that come from?  taxes of course.  the economy, under Clinton was very good.  OK so blame 9/11 for bush and the economy.  that goes back to the bush ties to 9/11 and the Saudis.   george bush is a AWOL soldier, a liar, a wimp, he is nuts.  he says he speaks to god. for f%$k sakes there is no god.  the christian extremists like bush are no better than the Muslim extremists.  i really have a hard time with people that believe this crap.  if there were a god, he would not take sides or even allow wars.  every army prays that they will win...so if there is a god how is this done?   it is all about money and power.  during the first gulf war i fought as a relatively new commander.  i was wounded and lost 2 of my guys.  but we did this because it was the right thing to do.  when george Sr stopped us at the gates of baghdad we thought he was wrong.  but in hindsight he was bang on right.  in 1988 i was a young 25 year old lieutenant serving with the UN for the cease fire between Iran an Iraq.  i saw what Saddam was capable of and wanted to get my mitts on this bag o shite.  in late 2001 my guys and i were some of the first boots on the ground in Afghanistan.  i lost 2 and got my 3rd purple heart. my last time overseas was Iraq  as a seasoned Lt commander in 2003 i went for my final time and 4Th PH.   disillusioned on my return home i put in my papers to retire.   3 tours in Iraq and another 4(Lebanon, Israel , Egypt and Cyprus)  was more than enough for me and my family to go through.  i could not have a normal relationship or marriage due to my service.  but i would not have changed it for anything.  like my political activities i do what i do to make life better for others and to make my mark on this earth.  although some times i have my doubts in all honesty i have more than left my mark for better or worse.   i get a bit annoyed with armchair soldiers/politicians.  but i must say i have learned something from some of them.  things i guess i would not have thought of.   do i think i am better than some?  TBH damn right i do.   99.99 percent of people could not hold a candle to what i have accomplished in my life.  however that does not keep my doubts at bay.  but i try. 

back on track.  the republicans are amoral, Hippocratic, neo christian nuts.   we should be judged on how we treat our poor and disadvantaged.  anyone can be a bully.  it is the true hero that helps those less fortunate than oneself and takes care of those unable to take care of themselves.

OK post your rebuttals but i truly doubt you can match this.

[quiktaco]

you say under bush the government got 25% more revenue.  where did that come from?  taxes of course

I didn't say 25%, I don't want people to attack me because of this.  Yes, taxes of course.  The big businesses were taxed less, so that caused more jobs and more income, so more was taken in by taxes, but from more people.

he says he speaks to god. for f%$k sakes there is no god.

Excuse me, but that is your religion...atheism.  You can not press that into the government if Christianity can't be.  And I talk to God all the time...it's called prayer.

if there were a god, he would not take sides or even allow wars.

God gave us all free will.  He allows wars because he chooses to let people do what they will do.

the republicans are amoral, Hippocratic, neo christian nuts.   we should be judged on how we treat our poor and disadvantaged.  anyone can be a bully.  it is the true hero that helps those less fortunate than oneself and takes care of those unable to take care of themselves.

I think both sides can be called amoral and Hippocratic.  And yes, the right has more Christains, but don't call them nuts, because that is just attacking.  I believe that you are a nut for being atheist, but I'm not trying to attack you.
Treating the poor and disadvantaged is one thing, but throwing money out to people that could easily work is another.  If they help themselves first, then it would be fine to help them a bit more.  When they don't contribute to society, then why should society contribute to them?


I'm starting to think that you are a 9/11 conspiracy theorist that thinks Bush orchestrated the attacks.  You have to remember that this war on terror was completely supported by many democrats, including the Clintons.  If you don't acknowledge that terrorist activities happened in Iraq (which you should since you've been there), then you are the one that is ignorant.  And how is saying that the democrats will take your money is nonsense.  That's their platform.  We take your money and redistribute it to the poor.  Social Redistribution.  Communism.

I do agree that American Freedom is a myth.  We are governed by way too much which has been implemented by liberals. 

[frankieG]

the 9/11 conspiracy in my opinion is idiotic...boy i am sorry if i gave that impression.  i do not believe for a second that any American would allow 9/11 or even support such a terrible event.   as for democrats supporting the war what is because of the republican lie and the fear felt by all American after 9/11.  we now know that bush, Cheney and other republicans lied.  why they did this is still a mystery to me.  maybe it was revenge, maybe it was for oil, maybe it was for their Saudi friends.  i just don't know for sure.  but there was no link to 9/11 and Iraq.  Saddam killed terrorists and not trained them.  our government supported Saddam in his was with Iran and we sent arms and money to him. the region and the world are much more unstable because of the illegal war in Iraq.  we are in another Vietnam that keeps us from doing anything else.  it has sucked our economy dry.  we are lost thousands of our best young people.  for what? nothing....nothing at all.

taxing big business less in order to gain employment is a conservative myth.  it only gives executives more bonus money for their stocks doing well.  i am not sure if i am a atheist...i may very well be...i guess i am just confused on the topic.  as silly as that may sound.   oh the "free will" thing..that is the trump card to explain all that is bad in the world.  i don't buy it at all. if he has his hands in everything then there is no reason he can't change things.  you can't have it both ways. it is either he has total control or no control.  no ifs ands or buts.  if he is perfect then he has total control.  if free will is real then he does not have total control and thus is not perfect and thus is not the god y'all portray. 

i thought being a christian is helping the poor.  what did Jesus do?  he healed, he fed and he taught.  so should our government not do the same?  how can you in all honesty sit and let our money be spent on arms and not the poor.  and it is not only the poor.  many middle class people can not afford health care and medication.  look at Canada.  a much smaller country by population.  the tax rate is about the same.  but there are some major differences.  Canada does not go nuts on military spending.  Canada has a balanced budget and is paying down it debt since the early 90's.  Canada has free health care, sure there are wait times but everyone gets the care they need.  Canadians are loved and not hated through out the world.  they live longer, have less people in jail,  are happier, with a crime rate that just puts America to shame.  they are our closed neighbor and trading partner.  they have the second largest reserves of oil in the world and a vast majority of its fresh water.  they are a peaceful nation that just shakes its head in disbelief on how we behave.  i know this by being a dual citizen and seeing and hearing the difference.

[quiktaco]

This is a long one...sorry, but please read it.

oh the "free will" thing..that is the trump card to explain all that is bad in the world.  i don't buy it at all. if he has his hands in everything then there is no reason he can't change things.  you can't have it both ways. it is either he has total control or no control.  no ifs ands or buts.  if he is perfect then he has total control.  if free will is real then he does not have total control and thus is not perfect and thus is not the god y'all portray.

This is where you are misunderstanding things.  I believe that God created this Earth as a place for the human race.  We lived in the Garden of Eden.  From there, man sinned by eating an apple off of a tree that God said not to eat from.  He only said not to eat from it because he wanted loyalty and trust in him.  However, with the free will that God gave man, Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan (God's former right hand Angel, in the form of a serpant) to eat from the 'Tree of Knowledge'.  This was the first sin by man.  First sin was Satan wanting to be a god, so God banished him to be the keeper of those who have sinned.  They were banished from the Garden of Eden, and had to pay for their sins.  Woman was punished for getting Adam to eat the apple by having painful childbirth (ever wonder why the human head is so large at birth).
This free will that God gave to us, is to let us follow him, or to go our own way, and follow sin.  He can intervene in anything that he wants, and does to some degree.  However, for the most part, he lets things happen, because if he does intervene in certain ways, then free will has been taken away.
Next you will probably ask why he lets good people starve or suffer.  It is sin, first of all that caused this, however, for those people that are put in those situations, they are being tested, and will be rewarded in Heaven, if they keep their faith, or find faith in God at those times.
The portrayal that you have of God is incorrect, because he is perfect, but allows us to choose our own paths.  This life on Earth is short and is not eternal, like it will be in Heaven.  It is only a test for humans, to either choose him, or choose sin.
Now you're probably going to say that everyone sins.  Yes everyone does, but Jesus was sacrificed so that our sin is washed away from the eyes of God.  Therefore, we are viewed as perfect in the eyes of God, if we believe in our hearts that Jesus died for our sins.

i thought being a christian is helping the poor.  what did Jesus do?  he healed, he fed and he taught.  so should our government not do the same?

Refer to one of my recent posts.  The Bible says to not feed those who do not work for it.  You aren't supposed to be lazy and expect to receive things.  Jesus did feed, but to those who deserved it.  He taught the Word of God.  And he Healed those who deserved it.

In Matthew 9, we discover that Jesus Christ has authority over sin. What is the greatest need of man? This text tells us it is not food, clothing or shelter. The greatest need of man is not for peace between nations. It is not economic prosperity, nor for the healing of various diseases. This scripture teaches us that the greatest need of man is not physical but spiritual. Man needs forgiveness of sins.

Here's a story of Jesus healing a deserving man.  "There was a paralytic, a paraplegic, a impotent man - a man of total inability. This man was being carried, borne by four other people. Jesus had not been in Capernaum for awhile, but now he was home. News of his presence spread abroad, and it reached, especially, the ears of five people, of whom one was a paralytic. This man couldn't move. He had to be carried from place to place. But he and his friends had heard the stories of how this Jesus of Nazareth had healed many people - this Jesus who had power and authority, this Jesus who could calm the storm and the sea, this Jesus who could cast out thousands of demons from a man and make him instantly whole.

And these five, therefore, concluded that Jesus was able to heal this paraplegic, this paralytic, this impotent man. They all believed in Jesus. So the friends of the paralytic carried him to Capernaum. It was hard work. They probably had a long journey, carrying the paralytic, but these four loved their impotent friend."

Jesus healed this man, and he was able to get up on his own, and walk home.  He healed this man for him, and his friends, because they worked hard to reach him, and had faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You ask if our government should not do the same?  Why do you think the government is there?  It's not there to take care of the poor...it's turned into that, but it's not.  It's there to insure the freedom of it's citizens.  Donations and Volunteers can help the poor.  It shouldn't be a mandatory thing that's stolen out of our paychecks.

If I want a better life than what I have, I expect to work for it.  If poor people want a better life, then they should work for it as well.  They shouldn't be allowed to not contribute to society, and just do drugs and have sex, making more poor kids that will eventually be on welfare as well.  It's perpetuating the lower class.

I think it's Montana, or something that passed laws to make welfare more strict.  You know what happened?  Less people on welfare, and more people working, making money, and paying their own ways.  These people were able to make more, and contribute to society, and they are overall happier, and more well off.  And being poor won't perpetuate to their kids.  It's wonderful how that works, isn't it?

Frankie, I hope that in your confusion of atheism, and whatnot, you won't just disregard Christianity.  I know there are a lot of 'freaks' out there that may drive you away, and a lot of things may sounds far out there, but once you do believe, it all makes a lot of since, and everything has explanations to them.  I'm not saying that you'll become brainwashed and you'll then accept things, I'm saying that there are actual explanations.  The bible has never been proven to be false in any way.  It's extremely historically accurate.  I invite you to read the Bible and decide for yourself.

Some aspects of Canada make a lot of since, but it takes a lot in taxes to pay for it all.  If I'm paying for something, then I want to pay for what I want.  If I want a nicer place for my wife to give birth, then that's what I pay for.  We stayed in a nice private room in a really nice Hospital overlooking a small bay, and the Pacific Ocean.  I don't think you could get something like that if you had nationwide healthcare.  You get what you get, and get mediocre service.  Part of being free, is to have the freedom to choose what I do with my money.  (and no, this doesn't apply to abortion, being able to choose what the woman does with her body, cause it's not her body that she's doing something to, it's a different person's body that she's killing – but that's a different line of the debate).

I just think that we need to stop all needless programs, and have the amount of programs that we did around, say the early 1900's.  Then we cut taxes to everyone (not just the poor and not just the rich), and a surplus of revenue will poor into the government, to be able to pay down the debt, and the dollar will increase value.

[Cal76]

I am new to this thread, but I have tried to read a good portion of it to get an idea of the content.  I believe this thread, while not the most helpful of the GStwin threads, is by far one of the more interesting.

I consider myself very left-winged and have always voted democrat.  As of yet, I have not seen anything in the news or media to change this trend.  While, I definately do not have time to watch all of the videos linked here, I watched some and they showed alarming things about Obama.  The fact is that if anyone wanted to, they could compile a host of negative videos about anyone that has been in the public spotlight.  It's like a reverse highlight reel.

I am personally not religous, but I try to understand and respect the religions of other people as I want people to respect my beliefs.  If I thought that a cantidate's religion or lack of would affect his/her decision making in a negative way, that is not conducive to the freedoms that I enjoy, then I would be foolish to support him/her.  However, if the cantidate handles the job professionally and seperates the church and state, then why would I care what he/she believes.  I will never find anyone with the same beliefs as myself. 

I kind of thought this year would be a democratic victory for sure.  No matter who is at blame, the US is a mess at this moment.  It just so happens, Bush and the republican party seem to be easy to point the finget at.  The president does not have absolute power though and the democrats have the house majority.  So really they are both to blame. (I am not sure the democrats have a cantidate that can win)  The fact is, just after the 911 attacks, Americans were pissed and when Bush gave his Americans are gonna get even speech, not only did I as a devout democrat get chills, he had his highest approval rating ever.  We all agreed when our emotions were involved, but once the adriline rush passed and we started seeing the consequences of our emotional decisions, now all of a sudden, it is a bad call.  It was a bad call from the begining and it is all of our faults.  There is a reason that America is such a target for terrorists.  We try to hard to change every other country in the world, sometimes in ways they do not want to be changed.  In my opinion, America has lost its title of worlds most powerful country.  How can we have this title when we are so dependant on others.  What other country borrows money to help yet another country out of a crisis.  We tell our middle and lower class not to exceed their income and live within their means, but the country as a whole is living beyond its means in a big way.  And to borrow money from other countries just to keep from doing the unpopular thing and paying for things ourselves through taxes is just insane.  I have no problem at all with paying more taxes to fix our sub-standard education system or to help with a couple of the worlds issues.  I do however, have a problem with borrowing from other countries to look like bad asses and try to fix all the world's issues.  I also have an issue with my grandchildren speaking Chinese because they own our country.  A country is basically a business and in a business that sells stock, which is all a us bond is, 51% rules!!

I think Obama has the best plans.  I do not care about his religion, his gender, whether he salutes the flag or burns flags to stay warm.  I don't care about his opion of his grandma, who his preacher is or about any other irrelevant things that can be dug up about him.  And if I truely do not care about McCain's dirt.  If he had the best plans, I would support him.  The truth is politicians are human and today with mass media, every word is turned inside out and analyzed.  Michelle said she is finally proud to be an american.  When I heard this, I took it to mean nothing negative, but after it was analyzed and played over and over, you would have thought that she was an enemy.  I understood exactally what she meant and I will understand when McCain's words get twisted by a media obsessed with the big story.  Don't let a piece of our history become a carefully planned out made for tv movie.  Don't let you tube make your decisions by carefully putting together a 20 minute that says the same 4 or 5 sentenses 100 different ways.  I am rambling and I have always been told that you ramble because you are out of things to say and are not ready to shut up so, bye for now.

[Cal76]

btw, frankieG is awesome       Cogito, Ergo Dues Non Est

[frankieG]

i agree this tread has been very interesting.  i love hearing different opinions.  just because i think something to  be true or right does not make it so. 

[Cal76]

That is the exact I joined my college's model UN debate team.  Once in a while you debate topics that or take a side in a topic that follows your own beliefs, but more often than not, you must take a position that is different than your own.  This semester we have two major sets of debates.  One of the sets, I am representing the Republic of Iraq and the other, I represent a small African called Burkina Faso.  The two countries are quite different. Even though they are both  predominantly muslim countries, they have way different problems which changes what they find it important enough to worry about.  My point is, I have my own opinions and even though I personally find it easier to research and debate a point of view that differs from my own, doing so opens my eyes to the reason others believe what they do.  This dosen't mean it changes my opinion, in fact most of the time it solidifies what I believe, but I do understand a bit better.  I have always seen the bible as more of Aesop's fables; stories that did not necessarily happen, but good rules to live by.  None can argue that "thou shall not ....."  are, in most cases' good rules to live by, but was there literally 2 of every animal on the arc or even an arc at all, probably not. 

I read a book recently that put alot of my confusions into perspective.  It is titled "God is not great. How religion poisons everything" by Christopher Hitchens.  I see it as a must read for anyone as unsure as myself. 

Later,
Wayne

[quiktaco]

hey cal76. I'm glad you joind the thread. You sound informed and that you'll contribute well.  I'm looking forward to some debate with you.  I've never done it like you though. I've always viewed myself pretty far right, so we'll have a lot of different views. No matter what happens in this thread, I don't want people to treat eachother differently on this site. We have a great community here.

[Cal76]

For sure.  GStwin is by far one of my favorite sites.  I had no choice but to take my bike to a over rated mechanic before I found this site.  And now, thanks to the east coast valve kit and a great video, I checked my valves today and even changes two of the shims.  This type of project and many others much simplier would have been an impossibility not long ago. 

My wife is super impressed with the pay it forward way that the valve kit goes from person to person.  And she was equally impressed that the kit had cash in it and everyone added to it as opposed to taking it.

I love to debate, regardless of the topic or position.  It is how I feel I am able to learn about my true feelings, by arguing against them.

Later,
Wayne

[frankieG]

your to the right??? naw i did not know that lol 

gstwins is the best board on the internet.  very little flaming and a lot of joking and having fun.

[shiznizbiz]

i agree.  I actually like it here.  This thread specifically is one that i typically would not post on, because I do not delve into the political realm of things..too complicated for my brain.  I do enjoy reading good wholesome debatable info.  Thanks for the input everyone.  Its been keeping me awake on this looooooooonnnnnggggg night. 

[Cal76]

The poll on CNN as of 10:00 am today says:

Obama 50%    McCain 42%    Undecieded/Shatner/Ross Perot 8%

[Revere2]

CNN=Communist News Network

[yamahonkawazuki]

ROFLMAO, seems the only network which is not liberal biased? is fox. but then again. im at thge point where its all BS  , objective journalismis dead.
CNN Clinton newsnetwork,
ABC All barack channel   isnt their motto,"All barack, all the time?"
CBS clinton broadcasting service
but meh im over it. i get better news fromwiki  [/sarcasm]

but hey at least frankie cant be president. so there is some hope  ( jk btw frankie we all love ya, even us normal err non liberals 

[quiktaco]

CNN=Communist News Network

Love it...never heard that one before.

Yeah...this thread's been dead for a couple days.  I think everyone is over it.  There's no good choices like always, and the one really bad choice has brainwashed the left like usual.  He's even gotten to some of the right, with his good looks and advertising...I mean news coverage...I mean non biased news coverage-covering both left and right-sides of Obama's face.