a little email i recieved today. thought i'd share

[yamahonkawazuki]

tg ill agree with your points of view. but it seems this section of the aforementioned email. makes sense. youve been around a few years, as have i, and most of this board

Undoubtedly,
if we thought about it long and hard enough,
we could figure it out.
I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW," i say this because , if you ( or anyone) raised a child to be ignorant, or violent. or you acted that way in front of them, and they turned out as such, would you say the last line makes a bit of sense?, or would you blame someone else? if i may ask

[oramac]

But you don't get my point...The issue is whether we should attempt to brainwash children by forcing prayer on them in schools...

Sorry, not condoning one side or the other, but in the spirit of legitimate debate, when were kids ever forced to pray and subsequently "brainwashed" in public schools?

Just found your comment interesting, any facts to back it up, or is it just the typical knee-jerk reaction to something that appears to promote religious morals?

ScottpA...good point.  It is my belief that God doesn't 'save' us or 'harm' us.  He gives us strength to deal with issues that society creates, and He promises us salvation if we live according to His word.  We were never promised happiness on Earth.  Once we were cast out of Eden, due to the choices of Adam and Eve, we were condemned to suffer on earth. 

I think that the grain of truth in this thread is that young people are influenced by the actions of their role-models.  If we are not allowed to discipline wrong doing, discourage promiscuity, hug, correct hateful speach and behavior, etc. then there should be no questioning why teen pregnancies and abortions are up, why sexually transmitted diseases are up, why we have too many single mothers raising children, why we still have the KKK, why kids kill each other without thought, etc.  Notice that nothing I mentioned is actually religious.  All I mentioned are common morals.  The problem is, outside of organized religion, who is actively promoting good moral conduct?

[trumpetguy]

Sorry, not condoning one side or the other, but in the spirit of legitimate debate, when were kids ever forced to pray and subsequently "brainwashed" in public schools?

Just found your comment interesting, any facts to back it up, or is it just the typical knee-jerk reaction to something that appears to promote religious morals?

I was born in 1957.  In my entire public school career, we heard a daily (Christian) prayer over the PA system.  It was not a non-denominational prayer.  It was specifically ("in Jesus' name we pray...") a Christian prayer.  We weren't forced to pray individually, but we were forced to listen.  It was intended to keep us (or convert us) Christian.  Your question even refers to the intent to "promote religious morals."  This is precisely what the so-called religious right wants to re-introduce -- mandatory prayer.

It does NOT belong in public schools.  Morals can and do exist outside of religion.  To suggest that only through a religion can people be moral is ridiculous (and can lead easily to Taliban-style rule when taken to the extreme).  One does not have to believe in a deity (or deities) to exhibit moral behavior.  One's motives in behaving morally don't matter -- only the behavior.

I think that the grain of truth in this thread is that young people are influenced by the actions of their role-models.  If we are not allowed to discipline wrong doing, discourage promiscuity, hug, correct hateful speach and behavior, etc. then there should be no questioning why teen pregnancies and abortions are up, why sexually transmitted diseases are up, why we have too many single mothers raising children, why we still have the KKK, why kids kill each other without thought, etc.  Notice that nothing I mentioned is actually religious.  All I mentioned are common morals.  The problem is, outside of organized religion, who is actively promoting good moral conduct?

Public schools DO promote morals.  Have you been in one lately?  Read the signs on the walls and listen to the teachers.  I cannot speak for every public school but most promote responsibility, tolerance, sensitivity, etc.  I am involved in education (I teach future teachers) and I am in schools every week.  I see it!

[trumpetguy]

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW,"

Yama, I'll agree with that. 

That's precisely why I am opposed to torture, the death penalty, violence as a way of "solving" problems, discrimination of GLBT people, discrimination of other kinds, etc.  We DO reap what we sow.  We have a more violent and less thoughtful society because we as a country have become more violent and less thoughtful. 

The answer to that problem is NOT in trying to force a religion on schoolchildren.  It is in becoming less violent, more tolerant, and more thoughtful.

[cafeboy]

We weren't forced to pray individually, but we were forced to listen.

and we are forced to listen to what others and others ideas of who and what God is and what not..
I think it called freedom of speach............right 
I am not trying to attack you. I am just pointing out that we are all forced to listen to others.

[trumpetguy]

We weren't forced to pray individually, but we were forced to listen.

and we are forced to listen to what others and others ideas of who and what God is and what not..
I think it called freedom of speach............right 
I am not trying to attack you. I am just pointing out that we are all forced to listen to others.

Give me an example of when you are FORCED to sit and listen to someone else's idea of who God is.  VERY different from freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech is when schoolkids organize "Prayer at the Pole" and other such events which happen in public schools across the country every day.  Optional events -- not mandatory.

Schoolchildren have no choice if prayer is mandatory.  They are a captive audience.  It is unconstitutional to mandate prayer in a state-funded school.  That's my point.

[cafeboy]

We are forced every day to hear it on TV, Radio, and in the work place or on the street. We have to hear it or try to not listen but I'm sure you no that you can't just tune it out. I am not saying they need to mandate prayer in schools. All I am saying is you say you where forced to listen? Well why did you not just tune it out? My son in in public school and prays over his lunch and other kids have to hear it. Is he braking the law or is it freedom of speech? As you would say they or "captive" so what should happen to him?
Again not trying to start a fight. I just don't think your view is right  

[trumpetguy]

We are forced every day to hear it on TV, Radio, and in the work place or on the street. We have to hear it or try to not listen but I'm sure you no that you can't just tune it out. I am not saying they need to mandate prayer in schools. All I am saying is you say you where forced to listen? Well why did you not just tune it out? My son in in public school and prays over his lunch and other kids have to hear it. Is he braking the law or is it freedom of speech? As you would say they or "captive" so what should happen to him?
Again not trying to start a fight. I just don't think your view is right  

You are not forced to hear anything on TV.  Your TV has a volume control and an on-off switch.  You CHOOSE to watch TV.  Unless someone with authority over you forces you to sit and watch/listen, you make a choice whether or not to listen.  I don't choose to listen to or watch the plastic evangelists on TV -- I am not in any way forced to hear their viewpoint, and neither are you.

Your son can pray over his lunch without breaking the law.  The school may not have a mandated blessing read by teacher, principal or students before lunch.  There is a LARGE difference between those two things.  I'm not sure why your son would need to pray ALOUD before lunch, but if your religion says he needs to then go for it.  It's a private matter unless others are forced to participate.

[cafeboy]

It's a private matter unless others are forced to participate.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My point. So don't listen. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[The Buddha]

The american system is really geared to isolating people and just avoiding real problems as opposed to solving them. We are pathologically polite ... to the point that people that are requireing help are taught to keep it inside till ... well they get a gun and kill people.
God has nothing to do with it, in fact people that invoke the name of god the most, have to be watched with a keen eye, they are likely to be the biggest of crooks. Live with your conscience and you dont need to talk of god at every turn. Show me what a true believer you are with the way you behave not with what you say.

Cool.
Buddha.

The buddha is really to be watched 2 X ... you never know what he'd do next.

[cafeboy]

The buddha is really to be watched 2 X ... you never know what he'd do next.

[Weston]

God has nothing to do with it, in fact people that invoke the name of god the most, have to be watched with a keen eye, they are likely to be the biggest of crooks. Live with your conscience and you dont need to talk of god at every turn. Show me what a true believer you are with the way you behave not with what you say.

Dont make your judjment of God based on the hypocrites.... and there are plenty of them.

[yamahonkawazuki]

TG i take it your not a religious person, you can pm if you dont want it in public. im just tryin to understand all i communicate wiht here. on the twin( to make myself a more effective listener/commentator here

[LOUiE]

Dont make your judjment of God based on the hypocrites.... and there are plenty of them.

this is a good point... there are a lot of nutjobs out there... can I get a holla for the Westboro Baptists anyone?  crackheads.

it's a good point that should be used throughout life tho... don't make up your mind unless you've checked it out.  Obviously there are some exceptions... you don't need to experience a gunshot wound to the head to know its not cool, or spend 11 years on the street hooked on meth to know to stay away from that stuff...

But for most things in life, you just gotta check it out for yourself.  Don't let others make up your mind for you

[The Buddha]

For all the "preaching" I see about religion there has to be a lot less violence of any kind.

The whole system is geared towards "what can we do to keep someone from acting out now" and once the person is not in danger of acting out, they ignore them till the next version comes up ...

Schools and everywhere else this is really well practiced that is it almost second nature to them. No one seems to care till a columbine or a Virgina Tech happens, and then there is shock, how did this happen, how can we make this not happen again ...

We cannot "make this not happen again" if we are all focussed on "this". We need to reach far below and get people out of the danger zone for good, not just cover their symptoms up.

I can also tell you, no one is interested in the cure, for every 1 columbine killer, there is a million others smouldering under the surface and that means big $$ for counsellors, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies etc etc etc. The system makes $$$, and lots of it for people in the system. The goal is to keep it going.

Cool.
Buddha.

[trumpetguy]

TG i take it your not a religious person, you can pm if you dont want it in public. im just tryin to understand all i communicate wiht here. on the twin( to make myself a more effective listener/commentator here

I'm not going to disclose my religion privately or publicly.  I will say that I believe that most denominations adulterate the intent and meaning of religion altogether.  There is very often (and as a musician I play in a lot of churches) a complete disconnect between what the scripture says and what the people do.

[yamahonkawazuki]

TG i take it your not a religious person, you can pm if you dont want it in public. im just tryin to understand all i communicate wiht here. on the twin( to make myself a more effective listener/commentator here

I'm not going to disclose my religion privately or publicly.  I will say that I believe that most denominations adulterate the intent and meaning of religion altogether.  There is very often (and as a musician I play in a lot of churches) a complete disconnect between what the scripture says and what the people do.

ill be damned, youve got a [point, err several there. specially the last part., seeing as though you wont disclose, ill respect that, and not ask anymore. i just ask, that you respect my views, and ill respect yours. deal?

[PuddleJumper]

+ 1 on what you said about there being a disconnect between what some churches do and the intent of what religion is supposed to do.

The problem, ( strictly in my opinion) is that it's not about a religion but about a relationship.

I can be religious about going to church and religious about keeping all of the rules, But without a real relationship with God, it's all a waste of time.

BeSafe
pj

[cafeboy]

without a real relationship with God, it's all a waste of time.

+1
So true

[yamahonkawazuki]

+ 1 on what you said about there being a disconnect between what some churches do and the intent of what religion is supposed to do.

The problem, ( strictly in my opinion) is that it's not about a religion but about a relationship.

I can be religious about going to church and religious about keeping all of the rules, But without a real relationship with God, it's all a waste of time.

BeSafe
pj

+ 2 trillion. ( my opinion of course)