gs500 2006 suddenly dies...

[sotomoto]

Hello guys,

My 2006 gs, after 10 minutes of riding, suddenly dies--after that i have to wait for about 30 minutes and then, i can start the bike again. When bike dies, there is no spark(the starter motor works properly).
This problem happens not occasionally but every time i will try to ride the bike.
I don't know if that problem has to do with the carburetors(adjustment--mixture air/fuel......). I have done some test to the charging system(John Bates-charging circuit test) and a few tests to the ignition system(Kerry-http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=5500.msg44988#msg44988). These are the results:

--Battery. I don't remember the excact numbers but these are ok at 2500 and 5000 rpm.
--stator.   0,5-0.6 ohms resistance between all three combination of wires    61-63 AC Voltage between all three combinations of wires at 5000 rpm
--alternator. battery cable test--ok.  diode check ok(0,55 Volts between wires and OL as expected).
--kill switch . 0,9 ohms resistance in both kill switch positions(on and off).-- when i put the multimeter to the diode and continuity test position the buzzer sounds-- i don't really know what this means.
-- ignition switch check. 0,00 ohms between both terminal pairs(i think when switch on... i don't remember well)
-- pulse generator coils. Resistance between blue/black and brown wires is 353 ohms. I have to say here that i couldn't find the green/white wire as described from kerry. there are only three wires coming from pulse generator--green/yellow, blue/black and brown. I believe this  green/yellow is coming from the oil prssure switch. I think there must be some changes on wiring harness in the latest gs models..?? So, i am ok to have only one resistance measurment? And is this number ok??
spark plugs. 100-1500 milles after i bought them, they are black(carbon fouling), as described in haynes manual gs500 89' to 97'.
fuse. ok

I have changed the cdi unit, the regulator/rectifier and i have done some efforts to put wd40 in some connections but the problem remains...

Guys, any ideas about what is going wrong or further tests i can do?(I have haynes manual, i can see the tests but i' m trying to find the most probable factor of this problem....)


Thank you anyway...!!!!!!!

[The Buddha]

Crank trigger.
Cool.
Buddha.

[scratch]

This is a tough one to figure out.  Dying after 10 minutes of riding could be carburetion, electrical or heat related.  One thing to note is that the problem is consistent, so something is happening consistently.

If carburetion/fuel delivery, I would suspect the gas tank not venting properly/vent hose pinched between the tank and frame (maybe).

Electrical/heat related - did you test the coils when warm?

[sotomoto]

I haven't checked the coils(stator and pulse generator coils) after they are warm. I will try this and see. I haven't yet checked the ignition coils- i wonder if one of these two ignition coils or any of the spark plugs is faulty, can lead the motor to die? Maybe i will take two new spark plugs and try them...
As for the carburetor, i know nothing about. I have to study first from the manual. I have never remove the tank from the bike. Maybe it's about time to do that...

Thank you guys     I'm not alone...

[sledge]

Crank trigger.
Cool.
Buddha.

Seconded.

[utgunslinger13]

Crank trigger.
Cool.
Buddha.

Seconded.

Just for learning purposes, why? lol

[The Buddha]

If its cold, a 10 minute warm up cannot affect carburetion in any case. Also it will run at some RPM's and not at others if its carbs.
The crank trigger is the part that actually gets affected by heat just the right way to entirely die when it gets hot enough.

BTW it will test beautifully ... as in, it will never show fault, and it will always say its good, even when its bad. The thing will also spark, except somehow the spark is not in the right time or something, it just is characterised by dying on 1 cyl and in the 04+ bike, they replaced the 2 triggers with 1 and a advancer that had all these extra prongs. Effectively eliminating that 1 cyl problem and replacing it with an all dead problem.

When you're swapping random parts - dont start with black box, usually I'd start with this, BB if it runs 10 mins is fine, its not getting much heat in 10 mins that it hasn't got in 1 min.
You keep riding the bike 10 mins at  atime you'd soon have a bike that does not run at all. Like 10 mins becomes 9 then 8, then 7 then 6, then 5, then 4, then 3 then 2 then 1 and soon it will be all dead.

Cool.
Buddha.

[sledge]

Crank trigger contains (amongst other things) a coil of very very fine copper wire, when it gets hot it......

A) Expands, the wire gets hot, it stretches and breaks causing an open circuit and remakes when it cools...or
B) The very thin polyester based insulation coating on the wire breaks down causing a short between the turns in the coil.

Crank trigger failure is a common and well documented fault on the GS5 and has the symptoms described by the OP

[utgunslinger13]

Thanks!  Sometimes knowing WHY is just as important of kinowing WHAT is wrong so if it ever happens to me I can try and think it through!

[sotomoto]

Hello guys again,

Today i tested the coils(stator and pickup) after they were warm.
First,i started the bike and  left it in the idle speed for about 6-7 minutes. Then i stopped the engine and i tried to restart it again but nothing... Bike died again(that is another classic symptom of the problem, in the idle speed, that i haven't mentioned in my first post). Immediately, i tested the coils and these are the results
-- stator. one measurment at 0,6ohms and two measurments at 0,7ohms resistance between all three combination of wires 
--pick up coils. I was not able to measure something with the multimeter('OL'). For about half an hour, i couldn't take any measurments from the pickup coils and the motor couldn't start(no spark). Suddenly, using the multimeter again, i saw some number like 560ohms, then after a second 1500 ohms,then after a moment 880 ohms etc. After a while, i started the engine and everything ok...

I suppose is the crank trigger...( Buddha, sledge et al..., you are right...)
So, my intention is to buy a used crank trigger. Or is it better to take a new one..?? Maybe i can fix my own..?? But i don't know if this item can be fixed by an electrician or if it's worth to do that...
I think the crank trigger with the wire harness is on piece together(sorry for my English..), coming from the crankase cover to the connector, under the seat. So if i decide to put another crank trigger, i will have to remove the tank or something else?(any tips guys..?? )

Guys thank you again for your help!!    
Cheers

[The Buddha]

Impossible to test the trigger ... its got resistance between the wires, but that may change or something if its tested when hot. I dunno, I have been able to swap and get it working but never test it and know its good or not. Electrician being able to fix it - I dunno It seems encased in something.
Cool.
Buddha.

[sotomoto]

Thanks a lot Buddha. I will try another trigger and see what will happen...!!

[sotomoto]

Hello guys again,

so my problem had a name ''crank trigger''.....

Today, i took in my hands,from UK, a used crank trigger from the 05' model. I placed this trigger on the bike and left the bike working in the iddle speed, for about 45 minutes(am i overeacting..?!)...  During this period, the bike didn't die.... In this period of time, i also stopped the motor three times and restarted it again. No problem at all 
After that, i went out for a ride. During my short trip(25 milles--25 minutes of riding i think), everything was ok!!!! When i came home, i stopped and restarted the motor again. The motor would start...

I need to send my special thanks to Buddha.
And of course to sledge and scratch 
And i want to thank the gstwins.com page and every guy here.

After three months i am able to ride again. Just for history , when i went with the bike to the repair shop, the mechanical, after checking the bike for about 10 minutes, told me the problem was the cdi  . I bought a used one but nothing.It would be better, maybe- , if i had gone to an electrician from the start. I also bought a used regulator because a guy had the same problem as mine and told me it was the R/R.Nothing again...  . What i want to say is that these repair shops don't know everything and sometimes they haven't solutions for every problem the are facing up. Maybe they have good intensions... but...

After all, the good thing is that i bought a multimeter,i did some tests and studied many things on electrics and not only. My next projects are to put a handlebar riser an to face up a corrosion problem i have in the exhaust system.

Thank you one more time!
Cheers 

[utgunslinger13]

Congrats!  I'm glad you were able to get it fixed!

to the Buddha!

[sotomoto]

Thank you very much utgunslinger13 !!!! 
I'm very happy to be member of the gstwins community.

[The Buddha]

Yea bike dealers and mechanics ... simply put I wont shed a tear when 99% of them curl up and die. Trying to sell worthless crap at trumped up $$ to clueless idiots is their bread and butter. Anything they do, you can do better, 100 times better for 1/1000 the cost.

Maybe I'll do a spring bike workshop in a few months. Fix up all the gstwinners bikes and really ruin the dealers business.

I have seen them sell $2500 engine rebuilds on a 93 with a seized motor (atleast that damn motor was seized) and the guy that fixed it was my friend who actually is a good mechanic, but the bike after the fix is worth 1500 bucks. Nice way to lose a grand.

Anyway, I just think they are a huge waste of $ and I'll gladly give my bike away if it had a problem only a dealer can fix.

When my crank trigger died in 2000 the bike would run great for 10 mins from cold. Past that it will run great as long as you never let the revs drop below ~5K. Past which it will die on 1 cyl. I rode it from my house in South livermore to sacramento (almost 100 miles) only to have it die on 1 cyl as I was taking the exit ramp. On the return trip it did the same thing. I made several runs as I fixed the problem. Luckily I had another GS at this time, so I swapped back and forth till I got to the trigger. Swap that and bingo it disappeared. Its happened to me on 2 other GS'es and 1 virago. But its symptoms are all near identical.

Cool.
Buddha.

[Pigeonroost]

I had never heard of a crank trigger before.  Wut 'ntarnatoin does Roy Roger's horse's ding dong gotta do with ignition? 

I reckon I got me some googl'n t' do.

Wikipedia got this for me: "A crank sensor is a component used in an internal combustion engine to monitor the position or rotational speed of the crankshaft. This information is used by engine management systems to control ignition system timing and other engine parameters. Before electronic crank sensors were available, the distributor would have to be manually adjusted to a timing mark on the engine.

The crank sensor can be used in combination with a similar camshaft position sensor to monitor the relationship between the pistons and valves in the engine, which is particularly important in engines with variable valve timing. It is also commonly the primary source for the measurement of engine speed in revolutions per minute.

Crank sensors in engines usually consist of magnets and an inductive coil, or they may be based on magnetically triggered Hall effect semiconductor devices. Common mounting locations include the main crank pulley, the flywheel, and occasionally on the crankshaft itself. This sensor is the most important sensor in modern day engines. When it fails, there is a small chance the engine will start (engine will likely cut out after a few minutes of driving) but it mostly will not start."

Dang, I miss points and condensor.  lol

prs

[The Buddha]

Oh, its the giddyup on the right just ahead of your big toe on the whatchamacallit as you're sitting on the er ... horse.
Cool.
Buddha.

[sotomoto]

''Maybe I'll do a spring bike workshop in a few months. Fix up all the gstwinners bikes and really ruin the dealers business.''

Buddha, i am with you... I wish you good luck if you do something like that. Proper idea!!!

[gsJack]

Since da Buddha calls it a crank trigger and we always called them the pick-ups, I got curious as to what Suzuki called them.  Its the  SIGNAL GENERATOR.  Anyway it's just the modern equivelent of the old ignition points.  Many here were born years after cars all got electronic ignition systems in the mid 70's and probably never heard of points.