so many with no ATGATT!!

[Paulcet]

RE the guy on the 636: High $$ boots may not save a foot that hits a curb at 75 mph.

[hambonee]

RE the guy on the 636: High $$ boots may not save a foot that hits a curb at 75 mph.

HmmMMm..0% chance of saving foot with sneakers or what not vs. MAY not with decent boots.

I'll take the may thank you.

[bubba zanetti]

So many opinions. 
Yet... there was no support when I was criticized for owning this:
http://motoport.worldsecuresystems.com/_product_106904/Ultra_Trek_1-Piece_Air_Mesh_Kevlar_Suit

Spent $1400 on it, with liner, upgraded reflectivity panels, emergency info pocket, reversed zippers, and shipping.  I use it every single day, and it's saved my @ss more than a few times. 
And, I'm about to upgrade to the Stage 4 armor. 
Most of you don't even wear pants. 
Or, only if you "feel" like it.  Your "jacket" is an off-the-rack Joe Rocket made from panty hose, or your helmet is the coolest looking thing you could find. 
I have a dual-beam headlight modulator, with Silverstar Ultras.  Taillight modulator with turn-signal running lights.  I still have the OEM reflectors, and will never take them off.  My helmet is covered with retroreflection, and I'm upgrading to a high-vis pretty soon.  I'll put retroreflection on it, as well. 
My new bike has an air-horn on order.  My wife's buying me a SPOT personal tracker that calls 911 automatically.  I'm installing sprockets to SLOW DOWN. 

I don't own a BMW or hard luggage.  Nor do I have a survival fetish.  I do like being alive. I don't like worthless opinions.

How has it saved your life?

[mister]

Gear is basically Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). Just like any form of PPE for your job. Though, it's for motorcyclists.

And in your job, it is Not designed to make you indestructible like Superman. In a Hazard/Risk "Hierarchy of Control", PPE is the absolute Last resort. It exists for when all other avenues of hazard prevention fail. Other avenues being... different speed, different position on road in traffic, active scanning, traffic reading, pro-active avoidance, improved ridding skills, removal of activity that is high risk but with little reward, etc.

And just like workplace Hierarchy of Controls, those other avenues should be developed first. Such as, doing a riding course to improve your riding.

Don't be like the Scooter Rider on the highway tonight. HighViz Reflective Vest on while riding in his lane but close to the shoulder. His lane position invited people to pass him half in his lane. His risk has increased just due to lane pozi. But worse, he is relying on his HighViz to protect him while doing 20-25 clicks slower than posted limit. At night, without the 3D visual reference we use in daylight, other vehicles will come upon him and only realize at the last minute how slow he is. He is courting danger. Placing himself in a dangerous position. Scooter riders have been killed in this city for doing this.

Hierarchy of Control.... remove the hazard = ride on a different road where your vehicle can do the require speed instead of relying on high-priced gear to protect you from your own stupidity.

Why do people buy Cheaper gear? Because it allows them protection to a standard They feel comfortable with. Why buy 5mm thick leathers when track days won't ever be had and thus the likelihood of sliding for any great length of time and thus needing 5mm thick leathers is diminished? Why spend a thousand bux on a helmet when the $200 helmet meets the same standards? Why pay more $ for a Name when the less-trendy name does the same thing (and is probably made in the same factory)?

My experience tells me, people Will pay more IF you can give them a Valid Reason Why - and it must be a reason They deem to be valid.

Michael

[Jeff P]

To piggy back on what mister is saying about hazard/risk assessment.  I've thought a lot about this over the years and have softened my stance on ATGATT, helmet laws, etc.  I still wear full gear every time I ride, but I no longer get worked up or tisk tisk people who choose to ride in less.  Here's why:  we accept a much bigger increase in risk by riding a motorcycle vs. driving in a car than someone who rides without full gear does vs. someone riding with full gear.  ie, if we can rate "risk" on a scale of 1 (riding a train) to 10 (motorcycling drunk and naked), then I'd put being in a car at 2, riding ATGATT at 6, and riding without gear at 8.  Just getting on the bike represents a big increase in risk over the altenatives, the additional risk of not wearing gear is relatively smaller.  

So, if we get worked up about people riding without gear, then we must accept non-riders getting worked up about us riding period.  

jeff

[redhawkdancing]

So, if we get worked up about people riding without gear, then we must accept non-riders getting worked up about us riding period.  

jeff

Good point!

[Syzygy]

ATGATT is good as a general guideline and I follow it but it's all different degrees of assumed risk (which I guess means I agree with mister)

[romulux]

To piggy back on what mister is saying about hazard/risk assessment.  I've thought a lot about this over the years and have softened my stance on ATGATT, helmet laws, etc.  I still wear full gear every time I ride, but I no longer get worked up or tisk tisk people who choose to ride in less.  Here's why:  we accept a much bigger increase in risk by riding a motorcycle vs. driving in a car than someone who rides without full gear does vs. someone riding with full gear.  ie, if we can rate "risk" on a scale of 1 (riding a train) to 10 (motorcycling drunk and naked), then I'd put being in a car at 2, riding ATGATT at 6, and riding without gear at 8.  Just getting on the bike represents a big increase in risk over the altenatives, the additional risk of not wearing gear is relatively smaller.  

So, if we get worked up about people riding without gear, then we must accept non-riders getting worked up about us riding period.  

jeff

I've gotta disagree to some extent.

Riding with full gear can mean the difference between a hospital visit and just getting back on the bike and riding home, so there should be more numbers between 6 and 8 on your scale.

I don't believe motorcycles are as dangerous as people believe.  Keep in mind half or more cycle accidents are single-vehicle crashes.  Rider error.

This means there's huge opportunity to not get hurt.

Everybody wants to tell you about Uncle Bob who got killed riding his Harley, but they don't mention that he had a few drinks, had a wifebeater on, no helmet, no license endorsement, and no training.  Uncle Bob makes the statistics look scary.

That's not to say you won't die if you wear gear.

[hambonee]

jeff

I've gotta disagree to some extent.

Riding with full gear can mean the difference between a hospital visit and just getting back on the bike and riding home, so there should be more numbers between 6 and 8 on your scale.

I don't believe motorcycles are as dangerous as people believe.  Keep in mind half or more cycle accidents are single-vehicle crashes.  Rider error.

This means there's huge opportunity to not get hurt.

Everybody wants to tell you about Uncle Bob who got killed riding his Harley, but they don't mention that he had a few drinks, had a wifebeater on, no helmet, no license endorsement, and no training.  Uncle Bob makes the statistics look scary.

That's not to say you won't die if you wear gear.

Truth here. Not worked up over not wearing the gear. Confusion is a better term.

Personal example....

I was taking a turn at about 15-20 MPH and hit something(probably loose gravel)..

THe bike just flipped over to the left and I came down particularly hard on my left knee with the full 430ish pounds of the bike plus my own weight.

I got up, brushed off my pride and rode across the street to look at the damage...

Moral of the story is I walked and rode away. After it I looked at the CE protectors in my knees and you could see the damage from the fall. I am SURE had I not been wearing them that would have been all she wrote for my knee cap and who knows if I ever would have been able to ride again. I hit HARD.. felt the jar.

How many times do you hear about those little low speed parking lot or whatever falls. It takes just one the wrong way to screw you up permanent.

Risk mitigation is all this PPE is but it sure the heck does make more of a difference than from a 6 to an 8. In the end people will do as people will do. It's just sad that some could get permanently F'ed up cause they convince themselves they dont need the stuff or it wont happen to them.

[Jeff P]

That's cool 

Looking at "deaths per 100 million miles travelled" stats points to how I came up with my "scale".  In 2007 for automobiles it was 1.45, for motorcycles it was 38.  Note, back in 1997 it was 1.03 for cars and 21 for bikes.  I can only assume that the increasing size of bikes, greater numbers of older riders, and relaxed helmet laws have contributed to that huge increase.  But let's use that number of 21/mil for arguments sake.

Now, as you point out, a big portion of that count is people who were drunk (about 1/3) or had no helmet (about 40% in 2008).  So we can improve our odds considerably by staying sober and wearing a helmet.  But, you can apply the same sort of logic to automobiles - a big percentage of people who die in cars were either drunk (also about 1/3) or not wearing a seatbelt (about 1/2).  So, drive sober and wear your seatbelt and your risks go down in a car a lot too. 

So while I agree that motorcycling isn't as dangerous as the general public may believe (even at 21/mil that's only 1 death per 4.8 million miles riden!), I think it's quite clear that no matter what precautions we take, it's not nearly as safe as being in a car.  So that's why I made the jump from car --> bike 4 points, and from bike w/gear --> bike w/o gear only 2.  We can argue about how the scale should look and how we can account for various factors, but that's my take on it.

jeff

[romulux]

That's cool 

Looking at "deaths per 100 million miles travelled" stats points to how I came up with my "scale".  In 2007 for automobiles it was 1.45, for motorcycles it was 38.  Note, back in 1997 it was 1.03 for cars and 21 for bikes.  I can only assume that the increasing size of bikes, greater numbers of older riders, and relaxed helmet laws have contributed to that huge increase.  But let's use that number of 21/mil for arguments sake.

Now, as you point out, a big portion of that count is people who were drunk (about 1/3) or had no helmet (about 40% in 2008).  So we can improve our odds considerably by staying sober and wearing a helmet.  But, you can apply the same sort of logic to automobiles - a big percentage of people who die in cars were either drunk (also about 1/3) or not wearing a seatbelt (about 1/2).  So, drive sober and wear your seatbelt and your risks go down in a car a lot too. 

So while I agree that motorcycling isn't as dangerous as the general public may believe (even at 21/mil that's only 1 death per 4.8 million miles riden!), I think it's quite clear that no matter what precautions we take, it's not nearly as safe as being in a car.  So that's why I made the jump from car --> bike 4 points, and from bike w/gear --> bike w/o gear only 2.  We can argue about how the scale should look and how we can account for various factors, but that's my take on it.

jeff

Yup 

[Homer]

How has it saved your life?

Last guy that asked me that, verbatim?  
He argued that Baby Jesus already gave you the best impact protection - bones and muscles.
He was a big guy, surely had lots of bones and muscles.  Literally thought it was sacrificial, that he had enough to spare.  Pretty common train of thought.  

Last time I saw him, he was standing in front of Target in Alamance Shopping Center, Burlington, NC.  
3/4's of his cranium is now stainless steel (upper rear).  Rods in his upper neck and spine.  1/2" thick nail inside his left femur.  Forrest Gump style brace on the same leg (shattered his tib/fib and maleolus).  
He said his heart stopped a few times.  I didn't bother telling him it was from the potassium dumped into the blood by his muscles.  
Hit a rabbit at 115 at 2 a.m., slid into a concrete storage building.  

Told me the doctors did a bad job, because they kept hurting him.  Wouldn't give him "pain medsin".  
Told me he wished he'd had gear.
Said he didn't have a job and couldn't afford it, though.  Said he was jealous and not trying to sound like a punk in front of his friends.  
Said he still doesn't have a job, but he's trying to get one at a local place.
They make SkilCraft pens for the military and MRE's.  Common hirer of the deaf, blind, and maimed.  He has no skill outside manual labor, as usual.  

I rode away.  

Edit:
The only guy who's REALLY too cool to wear gear?  Buddha!


Everyone else?
This guy:

The "WTF are YOU looking at?" scowl... always a favorite. 

[plewis51]

Hit a rabbit at 115 at 2 a.m., slid into a concrete storage building.

And there it is.... Gear or not, he was going to be maimed.

[Homer]

The key to intercepting smart-@ss comments is to think 3 moves ahead, like in chess.  
Works with a lot of things, actually.

I never said he wasn't wearing a helmet.  
The helmet shattered, but he lived through it.  It's the only thing that saved his brain.

The broken tib/fib and crushed heel bone were from the initial tip-over.  He likes (liked) to keep his heels pointed out, and the bike fell on him.  He was wearing sneakers.  The frame crushed his heel, and the asphalt grabbed the shoe material- twisted his leg until it broke. 

He slid into the building backwards.  Back of his head first, then spinal column.  Broke the little bony tips that stick out at the base of your neck.  Had he worn a back protector, they would have been cushioned.
The femur was from a fire hydrant that he MIGHT have glanced off of.  That one's iffy.  
Good armor will absorb a few hundred Newtons of impact force.  Muscle... only a few dozen.  

Edit:
Tom Petty's laughing because I set you up.  

[plewis51]

I'm not sure where you get your train of thought Homer but it's fairly interesting 

[Homer]

   I aim to please. 
Friendship made.  Boredom averted. Goals complete. 

I'm out!

[Syzygy]

Forums say you're still online, you joker.

[hambonee]

THis thread now recieves...

[Homer]

Of course I'm still online!
No one can resist Gary Busey!

[bubba zanetti]

How has it saved your life?

Last guy that asked me that, verbatim?  
He argued that Baby Jesus already gave you the best impact protection - bones and muscles.
He was a big guy, surely had lots of bones and muscles.  Literally thought it was sacrificial, that he had enough to spare.  Pretty common train of thought.  

Last time I saw him, he was standing in front of Target in Alamance Shopping Center, Burlington, NC.  
3/4's of his cranium is now stainless steel (upper rear).  Rods in his upper neck and spine.  1/2" thick nail inside his left femur.  Forrest Gump style brace on the same leg (shattered his tib/fib and maleolus).  
He said his heart stopped a few times.  I didn't bother telling him it was from the potassium dumped into the blood by his muscles.  
Hit a rabbit at 115 at 2 a.m., slid into a concrete storage building.  

Told me the doctors did a bad job, because they kept hurting him.  Wouldn't give him "pain medsin".  
Told me he wished he'd had gear.
Said he didn't have a job and couldn't afford it, though.  Said he was jealous and not trying to sound like a punk in front of his friends.  
Said he still doesn't have a job, but he's trying to get one at a local place.
They make SkilCraft pens for the military and MRE's.  Common hirer of the deaf, blind, and maimed.  He has no skill outside manual labor, as usual.  

I rode away.  

Interesting story, you didn't answer my question.