Dual-sport a GS500E ??

[randomway]

I tested the GS on different surfaces now, even took it into the sand dunes in the Sahara. Here's a video on a stony track. To be honest, I can't imagine that this bike would ever become good on rough roads for a few reasons: short suspension travels, rim size on the front, front fork angle, handlebar angle and sitting position, clearing distance under the engine, lack of bashplates, at every drop you risk cracking the engine case, etc. It's really not good, and it's a waste of time even to put dual sport tyres on it. But for what it is, it's still a great bike. I thought I would share my thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE3gsDMWuzY

[Ken in Regina]

Thank you for sharing that video and your thoughts, randomway.

The road in that video is much rougher than 99% of the gravel/dirt roads I will be riding with the GS. For the very rare times I'll be able to find a road like that, I don't mind slowing down to accomodate the limitations of the bike. 

I agree with you that the GS will not ever become "good" on really rough roads without a very large amount of work and money. But I'm not trying for "good" on that sort of road. I simply want to be able to occasionally drive down one without it being dangerous. As your video shows, it's not even scarey to ride such a road on a GS, even one that is set up more as a sportbike, as long as you ride within the bike's limits. You can hear the suspension clanking and banging but otherwise there was no drama at the speed you were riding. And the suspension limitations were probably the only thing keeping you from going faster. I will be happy with the performance I see in the video.

I see that the bike in the video has clipons. That provides very little slow speed steering leverage and a very bad riding position for rougher rides. The '94 GS500E I have purchased has conventional bars so there is a lot more steering leverage and the riding position is much more upright than with the clipons. If necessary, I will replace the bars with dirt bike bars to get more length and rise.

I have the advantage that I have a DRZ400 for any time I plan to do lots of riding on roads like the video or ATV trails and technical single-track. I got the GS for those days/trips where I know I'll be mostly on pavement but still want the ability to go explore an interesting unpaved backroad if the opportunity happens.

My immediate plans for the winter are to replace the weepy fork seals and probably replace the fork springs with progressive springs while I'm at it and put on a set of barely used dual sport tires (Kenda K761) that I took off my DRZ. That's all I'll do this winter. I'll ride it for at least a couple of weeks in the spring to see if I need to do anything else to it for the type of riding I expect to do with it.

...ken...

[JAY W]

GS motor fits in an EX500 Kwack apparently,therefore must fit in a KLE500? (KLE,EX,GPZ same motor)
If you want GS power off road find a KLE with dead motor.(Not very common in the UK) Works in theory,sort of.

[KlaXon]

I have tested my gs in offroad a few times to. With little offroad riding experience it can go almost everywhere..
Haw been in sand dunes, in a rough grass fields, few times in rocky roads like this, or even in more bad condition roads:

In rocky roads like this my top speed is 90-120kph with normal street tires   I know that is extremely dangerous, but gs handled it very well.

Gs can be very universal bike, but i think he is created for streets and have to ride in streets, not in roads like this. For offroad use are bikes like Drz or XR..

[madjak30]

The GS will work just fine on roads like that, it's deep gravel or potholes that it doesn't do well...not enought suspension...anything more than that and you should get different tires...I've done 80kph on roads like that and just slowed for corners...it just feels slightly loose, nothing scary...

Later.

[randomway]

Yeah, I am still happy with the bike, and yes, it can climb through surprisingly difficult places. It doesn't do sand dunes, at least mine with all the bagge doesn't. It can struggle through deep sand as well, but I don't know how long before the engine would melt.

In short, yes, it will have no problem on gravel roads, look at mine. I did hundreds of kilometres with mine on unpaved and really bad roads in Europe and here in Morocco and not a puncture, not a broken suspension or anything. Knock wood. I'm just hoping it will hold up for another 10k miles through Africa.

[Ken in Regina]

It's getting a little closer to spring so it's time for me to get more serious about prepping the GS for riding. I've decided to take the minimalist approach that has been suggested, e.g. just put some decent dual-sport tires on and ride it for a bit before deciding if I need to do any additional mods for my purposes.

And already I've discovered a problem ... front fender clearance. There isn't any. With the nearly worn to the cord stock tires that are on it, if I do a finger check between the widest part of the tire and the inside of the fender just behind the forks, there's less than 1/4" clearance on one side and slight more than 1/4" on the other side.

It's nearly impossible to find a dual sport tire that's close enough to the stock tire size to fit the front fender. At first I figured I could do the tire test for free. I have a set of Kenda K761's that I took off my DRZ after only 2500km (replaced them with IRC GP-1 trials tires). The Kendas are barely broken in. I thought I would just fit them up and see if that would be good enough.

After discovering how little clearance there is even with a worn stock front tire, I got out the calipers and measured both the stock tire (110/70) and the Kenda front tire (120/90) at the widest point. The Kenda is 5/8" wider without air in it. Ain't gonna fit inside that front fender, no way, no how. Damn!!

The problem gets worse because most of the 17" dual sport tires are no smaller than the Kenda (120/90). Pirelli has a 110/80. I don't know if that will work and I hate to put out that kind of money without being sure. I can't find anyone online who stocks that size so I'll have to special order it. That means no chance for a discount. And with an odd size like that, probably no chance to return it if it doesn't fit.

For what it's worth, for those who are following this, after a lot of looking I'm down to Pirelli MT60 or Heidenau K60 tires. I gave some thought to the Metzeler Tourance, Avon Distanzia and Michelin Anakee2. My friend with the BMW F650GS has been happy with his Tourances and also a set of Distanzias he had.  But it turns out that after following me around on a few cowtrails with my DRZ400 he has decided he enjoys it enough that he wants something just a bit more aggressive. So he's bought himself a set of the Heidenau K60's. I was over at his place recently and got a look at them and they look perfect. But the smallest 17" they have is 120/90.

So now it looks like a front fender mod is called for. There are a couple of options in pictures earlier in this thread. One is a high fender and leaving the stock fender brace in place. The other is a low generic plastic fender bolted onto a higher fender brace.

If anyone knows any details about either of these options, or any other way to modify or replace the fender to get some more clearance I would be happy to hear about them.

For instance, what high fender might fit the front and how is it bodged onto the bottom triple clamp? And does the back end of it have to be bobbed (shortened) to avoid melting it on the pipes?

Or for a generic plastic fender mounted low, what fork brace could be used to get good bracing and still provide clearance?

Any help would be immensely appreciated. I didn't think it was going to get this complicated this quickly. 

Also suggestions for replacement fork springs would be welcome. I have to get the fork seals replaced anyway, so I might as well replace the springs at the same time.

...ken...

[Big Rich]

Ken I bought universal plastic fenders from www.denniskirk.com to put on a different bike. Luckily, I was able to cut apart the stock fender to use the brace out of it. The back section of my lower triple clamp has 2 bolts that hold the brackets for the brake hose (and maybe the speedo cable?). I used those 2 bolts for the rear section of the fender. I also lowered the headlight and tucked it closer to the forks, so the drain hole of the bucket will be the front bolt for the fender. Just haven't gotten that far yet.......

[ohgood]

+1 DoD#i. That's what I'm after.

There's even an upside to "the ball-bearing effect of loose gravel ". It's way easier to hang the back end out on gravel than on pavement. Even at my advanced age that's still a hoot! 

As far as weight, compare the specs of a naked GS500, any year, to, say, a BMW f650gs or a 650 V-strom or .... you get the idea. Yes, my GS500E is about 100lb more than my DRZ. But it's also about 100lb lighter than my buddy's BMW 650GS. Right in the sweet spot for something that's nice and comfy for mainly pavement riding with an occasional toot down a gravel road or an easy cowtrail.

@tt_four -- Instead of getting rid of the GS, just put some Metzeler Tourances or Avon Distanzias on it and go learn to ride on gravel. Heck, just take it out for a backroad ride as it sits and see how it works. It's fun!! You'll see some places you wouldn't have, otherwise. It will also give you an idea just how much "dirtier" you really want to get. Also, the tires I just mentioned, and similar, are still pretty good street tires so you really won't lose anything on the street. That's what they run on super motards and other hooligan bikes!!

...ken...

+1 for the distanzias. one of the guys here has a xr650 (i know, compltely different animal) and unless it's slippery owl shaZam! mud, he can ride anywhere on them. riding for 40 years prolly has something to do with it too, but you know

[bill14224]

Yeah, Ken!  Standard-ISH is all you can get these days.  The most standard bike I've seen in recent years is the Honda 900 Hornet. (CB900)  It has an in-line four engine, a round headlight, and it's naked.  That's all that makes it standard as far as I can tell.  It's actually much better because it weighs only 427 pounds yet pumps-out 100HP.

It seemed to me you've been asking for a 1969 BSA A-65 scrambler, but then you said you'd never want your '64 Triumph back.  A good A-65 would set you back about six grand these days anyway, so I'm thinking the best thing to do is put more aggressive rubber on your GS and try that out.  I hope my zest for riding lasts like it has for you.  I rode for a while, then stopped, then started-up again like you.  Dang wife and kids were always in the way!

[madjak30]

Here is a comparisson of some true standards...retro styling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYchgDvceyM

I personally prefer the more modern naked bikes, but they just don't sell well here...not like sport bikes or cruisers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dreoYlnlVQw

Later.

[Ken in Regina]

Ken I bought universal plastic fenders from www.denniskirk.com to put on a different bike. ...

Thanks for the link, Big Rich. I'll take a look and see what I can find. It's looking like some head scratching and serious bodging will be required to change the fender.

...ken...

[Ken in Regina]

@Madjak,

Yes, nobody seems to want a standard bike any more. Kawasaki Canada no longer has the ER6n listed on their web site so it looks like 2010 was the last one. My local dealer has a nice orange one sitting there looking lonesome. He seems willing to deal. The bike fits me perfectly. It's got me thinking seriously....    

...ken...

[Big Rich]

Found a fork brace that may fit with some fork. Scroll all the way down:

http://www.mikesxs.net/products-19.html

[Ken in Regina]

Well, I spent an interesting past three or four days. I came s-o-o-o close to buying a new 2010 ER6n. The dealer was ready to make me a really good deal. I spent another half hour at the dealer's this afternoon checking it over and making a list of the things I would need to add to it to get it where I want it.

When I got home I was puttering around in the shop and decided it was time to pop the battery charger on the battery in the GS to give it it's monthly top-up. As I was doing that I started to take a closer look at it. ... And discovered that it already has most of the things I needed to do to the ER6n to put it on the road. .... Windshield? Yep, got it. Handguards? GS has the big Slipstreamer Plexi2 so no handguards needed. Longer handlebars (the ones on the ER6n are way too short)? The GS bars are the same length as the Versys so they're perfect. GS seat's better padded and shaped. GS has four bungee hooks on the rear frame versus only two on the ER6n (how dumb is that???).  And so on....

Wooops, what the hell was I thinking??    All I absolutely need on the GS to get her going is new fork seals, new fork springs and new tires (would have had to put new tires on the ER6n, too, because I don't want street tires on it).

Let me see ... new bike and all the farkles is going to be pushing $9,000 by the time I roll it off the showroom floor. GS will cost me maybe $500 for new rubber, fork parts and labor.  Even if I decide to totally replace the front and rear suspension at some point, I'll still have a heckuva lot of change left from $9,000!!  Where was my head at???      

So it's back to the original plan. Only one problem to solve. But it's a doozy. As mentioned a few posts back, how to fit up a decent dual sport tire to the front. ?? The back is no problem. There are a zillion excellent choices in the correct size for the rear. But almost everything that will fit the front won't fit inside that stupid front fender. ....    

But then there's a Eureka!! moment. The answer is staring me in the face. Literally. I already have the answer parked in the shed. It's on the front of my DRZ400SM. A 3.50-17 IRC GP-1. It's the perfect thing!! I want a little narrower tire on the front anyway because it just works better off the pavement. And I'm really happy with that GP-1 on the DRZ. When I put it on I was expecting better performance off the pavement and I got it. But what really surprised me was just how much better it was on the street than the Kenda K761 it replaced. The GP-1 doesn't follow all the pavement irregularities like the Kenda. It seemed like the Kenda was always hunting whether on pavement or gravel roads. The worse the paved surface the worse the hunting on the Kenda.

The GP-1 doesn't do that. It's straight up and stable at everything up to 80mph (haven't gone any faster on the DRZ). And it's more responsive in the paved twisties. Turns in a little quicker and more positively.

What's not to like about it??!!

So, the current plan is to put the Kenda K761 on the back (free except it's a tube type so a few bucks for a tube) and get an IRC GP-1 3.50-17 and tube for the front.

So that just leaves the forks. Still waiting to hear recommendations on fork springs. Is there anything to choose between Racetech and Sonic other than the price??  (Sorry, don't mean to shout. Just wanted to be sure the most important question doesn't lost in all the noise above it.)

...ken...

[mikeybikey82]

sorry no help, i just wanted to say i am subscribing to this thread!  the way you write is awesome, and i love your idea.
Mikey

[scratch]

So a Metzeler ME33 Lazer front tire is out of the question...?

[Ken in Regina]

So a Metzeler ME33 Lazer front tire is out of the question...?

Thanks scratch. That's interesting. Too late for the moment. I want something a little more aggressive so I've already ordered the IRC GP-1 for the front just this morning. But if I determine that it's too aggressive I'll definitely keep the Lasertec in mind. That's a nice looking pattern for the front. Sometimes the old stuff is still the best stuff, eh?!! 

...ken...

[Ken in Regina]

Ordered new springs from Sonic yesterday. The .80 are coming. I'll get them put in when I get the fork seals replaced. The dealer has the other fork parts, the front tire and the tubes for both tires on the way.  Yeah, I know tubes on a street bike are so passé in 2011 but the tires are tube type so I'm more comfortable going that way. We old phartes don't have a hangup on avoiding tubes, anyway. It's all we knew in the day.

My riding buddy who helped me build the luggage rack for my DRZ was in town on Thursday and we took a look at how to do a rack for the GS. We've got some good ideas so once the snow is off the ground and the other work is done I'll ride it down to his place and we'll put our design skills and the welder to work.  Here's the rack we did on the DRZ.



...ken...

[Ken in Regina]

[Reader's Digest Version]

I sold the GS500E today.

The End.

[/RDV]

[Long & Windy Version]

This post is an admission of defeat, an apology to some people and an expression of joy.

First, I have to admit that I screwed up royally by buying the GS500E. This is not a criticism of the bike. It's an observation of a bad choice on my part.  I bought the bike in December after doing considerable research. I was looking for a bike with a very "standard" riding position; a position that we used to get on what we used to call UJMs or Universal Japanese Motorcycles.  Many of you are too young to remember what that's about and nobody needs to care.  The point is that what is now considered to be a "standard" riding position and what used to be are apparently quite different.

The riding position on the '94 GS500E I bought is not a standard riding position. It is a rather sporty position; surprisingly so.  This is not something that you can tell without actually riding a motorcycle. I bought the bike in December in the middle of a typical Canadian winter so there was no opportunity to do a test ride. And just sitting on the bike without a ride doesn't tell you anything really useful unless the position is extreme.

The riding position won't be a problem for anyone who is younger and more limber than this 64 year old. It is a problem for me. My legs are too bent and I'm leaning/reaching too far for this bike to be comfortable on longer trips, which is what I bought it for.

When I was finally able to take the bike out for a ride this spring I discovered the problem before I had gone even a block from my driveway.  A 100km ride simply confirmed what I knew at the start: I was going to be hurting by the time I got done. And I was.  

The really sad part of this experience was the $850 bill from the Suzuki shop and the $125 bill for Sonic's custom fork springs.  I did all that before taking the longer ride. My fault, not the bike's.

Moral: Never buy a motorcycle without a test ride if there are things, like riding position, that really matter to you.

One positive discovery related to my desire to use this bike on both pavement and gravel roads: it's stable as a rock on gravel. More stable than my DRZ400SM. Even with a nearly bald front tire and tire pressures set for high speed highway riding. I was surprised and impressed.

The Apology:

In discussions in this and other threads, a few folks recommended that I look at bikes like the Kawasaki Ninja 650, Yamaha FZ6R, Suzuki SV650 and similar for a more standard riding position.  I not only ignored them; I told them they were wrong and that those bikes have too sporty a riding position to consider.

I was wrong and for that I apologize.  

It turns out there are really two classes of sportbikes.  One is the true crotch rocket that has you stretched way out over the gas tank and your heels nearly touching your butt. The other is something the motorcycle press often refers to as "Beginner Bikes".  I discovered this when I encountered an old acquaintance who has recently returned to riding after an even longer layoff than mine.  After a lot of research and some test rides, he bought a Honda CBF600SA. He allowed me to take a ride on it the very day I discovered how wrong the riding position of the GS500E was for me. It was something of a revelation. The bike fit perfectly and the riding position was much closer to what I was looking for. Not perfect but maybe close enough.

That ride on the CBF600 put me back in the hunt.  I almost went straight to the Honda dealer and bought one. Would have done so except for the price tag. When I saw that number I realized I was in the ballpark of another bike I had considered buying last year: the BMW F650GS. And that bike is purpose-designed for what I was trying to create from the GS500E. It's a great highway bike but it's also very good off the pavement.

And they make a model that fits short people!!  

What Now?

So I sold one GS twin and bought another; the BMW F650GS (also a parallel twin).

http://www.wolfbmw.com/F650GSu.html

Yes, I bought the Lava Orange. It's a love-it-or-hate-it colour, but the F650GS is a love-it-or-hate-it motorcycle.

The important thing for anyone who buys a GS500 because of their physical size is that the model of the F650GS I bought, with the factory lowering and the low seat, is actually lower than the GS500E. The seat height on this model is less than 30". When I sit on it, both feet are flat on the ground and there is a slight flex in my knees.

I'm not saying that last bit to persuade someone to buy a Bimmer instead of the Suzi. The BMW is an expensive bike and the factory lowering and low seat add even more cost. But for anyone who is vertically challenged and wants to move to a more powerful bike that still fits, it's a bike to consider seriously. Even though it weighs about thirty or forty pounds more than the GS500E (and hardly any more than the GS500F), the fuel tank is under the seat. So the bike feels and handles like it's much lighter than the GS500.

Or you might take a test ride on the Honda CBF600SA and fall instantly in lust, as I did.  

I sold my '94 GS500E to a lovely young lady whose favorite colour is purple. She plans to ride with her dad who has a GS550. She fits the GS500 fairly well. After sitting on my BMW and discovering that she can flat-foot it, versus heels slightly off the ground on the GS500, she figures that might be her next bike in a few years when she has a real job and can afford it.

Thanks to everyone who has provided information, suggestions and support during my rather short time on this forum. It has been a pleasure. I hope I can find some place similar for help with my new GS.

Ride safe!!

...ken...