Too much weight for the GS?

[twocool]

if me and you are traveling 50 mph in 6th gear and floor it, who accelerates faster? Me,
if me and you are sitting at a redlight, we both launch at 3000 RPM who launches faster, me

If me and you are cruising at 50 mph and you look at our tachs mine will be higher, though i will be using less torque than you to keep the same speed because my gearing allows for my bike to be at that speed easier. Remember its a lever, my gear is moving faster but doing easier work, your gear is moving slower and doing more work.

Ok let's use this example.....you and I are traveling at 50.....me in my sixth, and you in a lower sixth...

We floor it...but I shift down to 5th...you stay in sixth...who wins???

Cookie

[ojstinson]

you two need to get a room.

[ojstinson]

XXXXX

[twocool]

you two need to get a room.

If this discussion is of no interest to you then don't read it.......

Cookie

[crzydood17]

Ok let's use this example.....you and I are traveling at 50.....me in my sixth, and you in a lower sixth...

We floor it...but I shift down to 5th...you stay in sixth...who wins???

Cookie

Mr. Cookie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent question were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no internets, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[twocool]

Ok let's use this example.....you and I are traveling at 50.....me in my sixth, and you in a lower sixth...

We floor it...but I shift down to 5th...you stay in sixth...who wins???

Cookie

Mr. Cookie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent question were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no internets, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I guess that question was a little too hard for you?  And I tried to use small words.

Answer:  In acceleration, your sixth beats my sixth.....my fifth beats your sixth...your fifth beats my fifth, etc....

Until we either  get to redline engine RPM.... or 1st gear.......

See, the "middle"   gearing doesn't matter....only matters starting off in 1st or top end in sixth.......

Power comes from the engine, not the gearing.........

I'm sure this makes no sense to you whatsoever!!!

But we never even got past the simple term "power"....

 

You never studies HS physics Huh?   But then again...you can't teach calculus to an ant either...

Ignorance is bliss..


Personal attacks?  Ok whatever... End of conservation...   


Cookie

Moderators.......please.......to the tard farm....please.........it's hopeless!!

[crzydood17]

so your saying that in the same gear if we raced no matter what gear my bike would win...

if we raced from a dig you in 1st and me in 6th who would win? WTF ARE YOU THINKING HERE OF COURSE YOU WIN IF YOU DROP A GEAR...  Thats like saying if I bring a gun and you bring a knife who shoots first...   

[mister]

MODS, do NOT TF this thread.

Cookie wants to keep on going and going and going and then wants it TFed, as if it's his personal goal to TF threads that don't go his way or go off topic or something. He seems to suggest tard farming threads a lot. I think he has a fetish or something 

Leave it how it is, there is some quite good level headed discussion in it.

Michael

[twocool]

so your saying that in the same gear if we raced no matter what gear my bike would win...

if we raced from a dig you in 1st and me in 6th who would win? WTF ARE YOU THINKING HERE OF COURSE YOU WIN IF YOU DROP A GEAR...  Thats like saying if I bring a gun and you bring a knife who shoots first...   

Jeeze...I though I was going to give up on this...but you answered without personal attack...so let's keep going! 


No...I am saying you must use the correct gear which produces the most engine HP (keeps the engine in the power band ..high rpm.....this is why GS has 6 gears to select from....  Only difference from 16 th and 15th this is in first and 6th..........for "performance" with either gearing,  we would use the same shift points relative to engine RPM...(top of the power band) but the shift point would be at different rear wheel rpm (road speed)....

For maximum acceleration.....A low first gear WILL give somewhat (but little) advantage from a dead stop....also a slight advantage if the bike is overweight...

In top gear (6th)...a lower gear ratio Might be an advantage....IF you are going at really high speeds....and IF you wnt to run the engine up to near or at redline......(as in racing on a track)....

But back to reality.....most of the time we are not "drag racing" so the low first gear is not much help.....most of us don't rev the engine up into the power band and release the clutch (what would be needed to extract max engine HP and give the fastest acceleration....)

Most of the time we are already in second gear or higher...(my weekend commute has only three stops in 80 miles)

Most of the time we are not at top speed (engine rpm or road speed) in 6th gear.....most prefer to use 6th gear as a sort of over drive.....to bring engine RPM down to a comfortable level...vibration, noise, and for gas economy....(we normally don't need a lot of torque at cruising speeds...and at these road speeds you simply down shift to a lower gear if acceleration is needed.....(six gears, remember?)

Now if we are talking about Racing on a specific track....(which we're not)..then you must keep the engine in the power band at all times........like around the 8000 to 9500 RPM range....some say you must always run up to redline before shifting to a higher gear.....And you're gonna choose a gear ratio which will allow the engine to just barley hit redline in top gear at the end of the longest straight.........But this is totally impractical for road riding...

But reality....we ride the road...we are out to enjoy the ride....we are not trying to win some imaginary race with each gear shift.....

The gear ratios chosen by Suzuki on the GS are a compromise....but the best of all worlds.....First gear is plenty low enough...and top gear is plenty high...and you have 4 more in the middle to choose from...

But "power" is produced by engine ..and we measure it in Horsepower....and the  "power" to the rear wheel is also Horsepower...and it is simply the RPM x  torque.........the power to the rear wheel is determined by the power produced by the engine.........Gearing cannot produce, nor change power.........Toque at the rear wheel goes down, as road speed (rpm) goes up...regardless of what gear you are in!  (provided you keep the engine at the max power band....

All gearing does is allow you to keep the engine at its maximum power range (rpm) through a variety of road speeds.........If you desire maximum acceleration, this in only possible at max engine power......so we choose a gear (1st thru 6th) which puts the engine into the RPM range of max power)  (usually requires down shift).  But for road riding most of us ride at engine PPM far bleow the power band....like shifting at 6000 or 7000...not running up to 10,000.....

You like 15 th?  Ok fine........works for you........but more power?  Nope!

Cookie

[twocool]

MODS, do NOT TF this thread.

Cookie wants to keep on going and going and going and then wants it TFed, as if it's his personal goal to TF threads that don't go his way or go off topic or something. He seems to suggest tard farming threads a lot. I think he has a fetish or something 

Leave it how it is, there is some quite good level headed discussion in it.

Michael

Michael.....when the personal attacks start....the thread is worthless.........to the tard farm!

(and I noticed the personal attack in your post above)

If somebody wants to discuss.....ok discuss.....we can disagree with out personal attacks.....point /counter point.......a lot can be learned this way....or we can run a thread for years and get nowhere...whatever....

Old "crazy- what's his name" makes some interesting points.....but also (IMO) has a couple of misconceptions about the physics behind gearing....(power, torque, RPM, force, work, etc)

It's hard enough to explain things on this type of chat group, and even harder when the thread degrades to personal attacks........

But there are some typical arguements, which occur over and over on these chat groups..and you know that nobody is going to change their opinion...and you know it is going to degrade to personal attacks...and you know the whole exersize is pointless....

So the tard farm is a good place for this crap!

If you remember this thread is actually about trying to ride a GS over gross weight?

Problem ....solution...

Problem..over gross weight .....

Solution...
don't ride over gross, get biger bike

Proposed solutions:
Get bigger shock
Get lower gearing

The proposed solutions don't completly address the problem.....



Cookie

[crzydood17]

if you can't understand it I can't explain it any more.

Gears produce more torque period end of question there is no way to argue that and if you can't accept it then its your problem.

Horsepower is a mathematical equation of torque, it can be considered torque over time. If a gear ratio increases torque then it increases Wheel HP, not Crank HP.

In all gears, a 15T puts the bike higher in the RPM for a given speed by about 500-600 RPM, Shy of the super rare times when my bike would be at redline and yours would be 500 from red line there is no instance where the 16T can match the performance of the 15T, and its far from a minor change.

You pull out of the argument by saying "normally" well if we are discussing normal driving here's the spill on the 15T

1. My starts are smoother and easier on the engine and clutch because I don't need as much RPM to move the bike.
2. My gas mileage in town is better because the ease of starting from a stop which is what uses the most gas.
3. My highway mileage is barely affected because it is only a minor increase in RPM combined with a easier time turning the rear wheel.
4. Unless I am in 6th, I can always move up a gear and drop my RPMs to the 3500-5000 range.

What is the advantages of the 16T?

1. Slightly less wear on the chain.
2. Slightly less RPM on the highway

You can argue till your blue in the face, These are facts I bring instead of false conjecture.

[twocool]

if you can't understand it I can't explain it any more.

Gears produce more torque period end of question there is no way to argue that and if you can't accept it then its your problem.

Horsepower is a mathematical equation of torque, it can be considered torque over time. If a gear ratio increases torque then it increases Wheel HP, not Crank HP.


You pull out of the argument by saying "normally" well if we are discussing normal driving here's the spill on the 15T

1. My starts are smoother and easier on the engine and clutch because I don't need as much RPM to move the bike.
2. My gas mileage in town is better because the ease of starting from a stop which is what uses the most gas.
3. My highway mileage is barely affected because it is only a minor increase in RPM combined with a easier time turning the rear wheel.
4. Unless I am in 6th, I can always move up a gear and drop my RPMs to the 3500-5000 range.

What is the advantages of the 16T?

1. Slightly less wear on the chain.
2. Slightly less RPM on the highway

You can argue till your blue in the face, These are facts I bring instead of false conjecture.

Oh...I understand it...It is you who doesn't so I have to keep explaining.....(just joking...let's continue to discuss...we are getting closer agreement...believe it or not..

Let's start with your first sentence:

"Gears produce more torque period end of question there is no way to argue that and if you can't accept it then its your problem."

Gears do not produce "more" (or less) torque........(changing gears may or may not change torque, as would changing engine power...(throttle and rpm  rlelative to the power band) engine power thru the drive chain to the rear sprocket  to the wheel produces torque.   By changing gears. ....or selecting certain gear...we can change the torque at the rear wheel.   Again you are not taking into account the factors involved...you talk about gears (I think you mean gear ratio) and torque....but you are leaving out wheel RPM....and engine RPM power band).

Next paragraph........"Horsepower is a mathematical equation of torque, it can be considered torque over time. If a gear ratio increases torque then it increases Wheel HP, not Crank HP. "

Horsepower is not an equation of torque.....torque is one of three factors in Hp....Torque over time is not HP either...(that would be called "work"....now you're up to two of the three parameters...

HP is a factor of Time, distance, and force........in rotation (like a rear wheel) the Time is still time....the force is Torque....and the distance is how far the wheel rolls.......

We usually substitute RPM  (which is time and distance together)...so HP at he rear wheel is torque, time, RPM  (torque time and distance)

If I travel at a constant speed.....then the rear wheel rpm is constant..therfore the torque to the rear wheel is constant, and the HP to the rear wheel is constant..NO MATTER WHAT GEAR I HAVE SELECTED!

This is basic fizziks!  you surely have the basic idea...but not complete...Hard to go further until you understand the terms and how they effect what we are talking about..

Cookie

[twocool]

C-dood,
You say the following:

on the 15T

1. My starts are smoother and easier on the engine and clutch because I don't need as much RPM to move the bike.
2. My gas mileage in town is better because the ease of starting from a stop which is what uses the most gas.
3. My highway mileage is barely affected because it is only a minor increase in RPM combined with a easier time turning the rear wheel.
4. Unless I am in 6th, I can always move up a gear and drop my RPMs to the 3500-5000 range.

What is the advantages of the 16T?

1. Slightly less wear on the chain.
2. Slightly less RPM on the highway

15 th:.....

Point one:  I agree!  (as I keep saying, changing to lower ration only effects starting form a dead stop)
Point two:  I agree!  Again starting from a dead stop.....
Point three:   I agree:  Barely affected...Ok but affected negatively (butif your physics was correct you'd drive on the highway in 5th gear and never use sixth...
Point 4:  This has to do with top gear...I agree........(again I hae said all along that the difference in sprocket only has an effect on 1st and 6th gear........

16 th....

Point one:  I agree
Point two:  I agree

Point three: better mileage....

Point four: To me....(personal opinion)  the advantages of the 15 th are very small to immeausrable..........The benefits to the 16th although tiny....are better mileage, and lower engine RPM at cruise out weight any slight benefits of 15th.  I do not ride in city much at all.....

In gears 2, 3, 4, 5, it doesn't matter one bit...........

You see it the opposite...OK ....

But I'm not trying to agrue with you about whether a 15 th is better or a 16th.......
I am trying to argue with you about your (IMO) misunderstanding of the Physics involved.

Let me pose another question to you........If the 15th is so much better in every way, why did Suzuki install a 16 th? 

Cookie

[gtscott]

Lets say I have a motor that produces 200nm torque at 4000 rpm, this is the output of the motor not at the wheels, I could stick a one million tooth sprocket on it or a 2 tooth sprocket, at 4000 rpm I'm still only making 200nm of torque, sure the bike won't want to move at all with the million tooth sprocket yet at that rpm it still makes that much torque, its just the load encounted that is higher
A better example might be, ever rode a push bike with gears, well ure pretty much the engine on the bike, when u Changed to the big sproket on the front it became harder for you to move the bike uphill right, although you covered more ground for the same a mount of rotationsyet the smaller front sprocket made the ride uphill a bit Easter yet covering less ground, you as a person still were the same, the bigger sproket didn't make u weaker, just changed the way u applied the power and torque u had

[gsJack]

I put a 15T front sprocket on my 97 GS early on and liked it.  Weighing about 240# at the time it made starting on uphill grades easier and smoother and felt a bit more powerful all around particularly on the mountain trips I use to take back when I was a young man of about 70.

When I replaced the 97 GS with my current 02 GS with the 3 circuit carbs replacing the 2 circuit carbs I felt no need for the 15T front sprocket and rode it for over 85k miles with stock gearing, just turned 90k miles yesterday.     This spring I put a 15T front sprocket on and like it very much after running the summer with it.  But, I'm currently running a 140/70 AM26 rear tire that has a 25.2" published dia and the bike came with a 24.1" dia Excedra rear tire.  24.1/25.2x16=15.3 so I guess I just got back to stock gearing overall with my 02 GS and Suzuki was not too far off with their choice.   

I still maintain the original poster is not too far off with his 420# load and a larger rear tire would put his bike's load rating above that amount.  Anyhow, bikes and other vehicles come with gearing suitable for the average user under average conditions and your personal needs may require some fine tuning.

[crzydood17]

Damn, even though you have not said why, I am wrong about horsepower at the rear wheel.

Horsepower does not go up at the rear wheel even though torque does. Here is a proof,
(WRPM = Wheel RPM)

50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM = ~ 71 HP and 50 Ftlbs at 7500 WRPM
50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM / a 2:1 ratio = ~71 HP and 100 Ftlbs at 3750 WRPM

Since the RPM does not stay constant and is divided by the gear ratio, the Horsepower number stays the same and the torque is multiplied by the gears.

So I give that Horsepower does not go up at the rear wheel even though torque does.

Now its merely a argument of what the definition of power is... and I feel that is to each his own, so, I enjoyed this, I love a good argument and its fun to learn stuff! 

[gtscott]

Yes its what is known as the torque ratio, however the mtor makes the exact same a mount or torque and power, its just applied differntly. Its the entire point of a gearbox, yet u don't here of people changing gearboxes to make more torque

[Phil B]

50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM = ~ 71 HP and 50 Ftlbs at 7500 WRPM
50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM / a 2:1 ratio = ~71 HP and 100 Ftlbs at 3750 WRPM

Since the RPM does not stay constant and is divided by the gear ratio, the Horsepower number stays the same and the torque is multiplied by the gears.

Nice numbers.
To put it in terms that maybe more people can understand, lets talk "levers", in the non-rotational world.

Lets say you have a 2ft lever, and you're trying to apply force to something to move it. You are able to apply 100lb of force , applied over some fixed amount of movement space.

If you change to using a 4ft lever/crowbar, you may be able to apply an effective amount of 200lb of force, but you'll only be able to move the thing 1/2 as far, if your amount of movement space stays the same. You dont get something for nothing.


Moving back to the rotational wheel world:
acceleration capability = torque.
If you change to the "2:1 ratio", you'll get a buttload more torque, so muchmuch more acceleration.... but you'll only be able to apply it for about half the speed.
So whereas before, the gear may take you from 0-20, now it will only take you to 0-10 before the engine redlines.

A gearing with massive amounts of torque, that is only usable within a range of x-(x+10) mph, is not that useful a thing

the GS500 is theoretically capable of hitting 130mph.
If you are interested in aceleration only within mostly legal ranges, then it might be worth while to change up the gearing for our GS500s, so that it tops out at ... 80mph?

[twocool]

Damn, even though you have not said why, I am wrong about horsepower at the rear wheel.

Horsepower does not go up at the rear wheel even though torque does. Here is a proof,
(WRPM = Wheel RPM)

50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM = ~ 71 HP and 50 Ftlbs at 7500 WRPM
50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM / a 2:1 ratio = ~71 HP and 100 Ftlbs at 3750 WRPM

Since the RPM does not stay constant and is divided by the gear ratio, the Horsepower number stays the same and the torque is multiplied by the gears.

So I give that Horsepower does not go up at the rear wheel even though torque does.

Now its merely a argument of what the definition of power is... and I feel that is to each his own, so, I enjoyed this, I love a good argument and its fun to learn stuff!

Ok...I agree...........at the rear wheel ....torque and wheel velocity  (rpm) are inversely proportional.......so if you double the torque, you halve the RPM....or if you double the RPM you halve the torque........

The power (horsepower) does not change because hp = Torque x rpm...

let me see if I can clear up some additional confusion between us....

I think you are sometimes using the term "power" when you should be using the term acceleration.


Let me give a couple of examples:

It takes power to make a motorcycle move......force x distance x time = power

At a given speed (say 50 mph) there are forces counteracting the motorcycles forward movement....largely air drag, but also mechanical friction, and tire friction.

The power of the engine is transferred (ultimately to the tire, and then to the road) to produce a resulatant (forward) force in the direction of travel........if this force is equal to the resisting forces (drag), the motorcycle will maintain a constant speed...all forces are in balance...

Interesting fact about power required.........since drag is a function of the square of the speed...in order to go twice as fast, it requires the engine to develop 4 times the power!!!  Example....motorcycle is "flat out" and is going at 100 mph...engine is producing say 40 HP......if you slow to 50 mph.....the engine only needs to produce 10 HP......at 25 MPH only a little over 3 HP.  If you wanted to go 200 MPH  you would need to go from 40 HP all the way up to 160 HP...
Yes this is just theoretical for example as many other factor have been left out...

Now back to acceleration...this is when we CHANGE speed...typically from a slower speed to a faster speed...or even from stopped to moving....

In order to accelerate we need to add power!!  (engine power)  Because as we go faster, drag increases..and we need more forward force to overcom this drag.....the only way is to increase the output at the engine...at this new , increased power setting...the bike will accelerate from the slower speed up to a faster speed....but then the speed will remain constant at this new faster speed...because the forward forces from the engine power to the road, are now equal with the drag forces.

(I know this is getting long...stick with me....I'm getting to the point eventually...)

Now we have to look at the RATE of acceleration...in other words 0 to 60 MPH is an increase in speed...an acceleration...but 0 to 60 in ten seconds is the RATE of acceleration...0 to sixty in 5 seconds would be the same change in speed...but the change happens twice as quickly.....

The HP required to double the rate of acceleration is 8 times!!!!  (third power)

So...if my 40 HP bike goes 0 to 60 in 10 seconds...I would somehow have to get 8 times the HP to go 0 to 60 in 5 seconds.......(320 HP)   Holy crap.........

This is why drag racing cars and bikes have huge HP...Like in the thousands......to do like 4 second 1/4 mile 0 to 300 MPH....

(Almost to the point)


OK so I want to accelerate at the maximum rate with my little GS 500 with 42 HP......

The only way to do that is to keep the engine making the full 42 HP...(less hp means less acceleration......an ther is no way to get more than 42 HP)

The only way to do that is to find the RPM which produces the most (42 Hp).. and it's way up there...I don't have the chart but it's like close to redline, if not redline...10,000 ??

OK...now here is where gearing comes in..........if I chose a to big of a gear.....the engine will not be able to stay at optimum RPM for top power..the engine slow, (bog down) to below the power band...less power to the wheel...slower (or no) acceleration........

So I choose a smaller gear to accelerate..by using first gear from a dead stop..or down shifting when crusing and wanting to accelerate...

But what is the limit to how small of a gear?   Engine redline...

If I want maximum rate of acceleration, I must keep the engine as near to redline as possible without going over.........

Also, say I'm curising at 50 mph 6 th gear  the engine is turning like 4000 RPM......the engine is not producing very much HP at this low engine RPM......If I want to accleerate to a higher speed...I can open the throttle but the acceleration will be poor at best...becuase I'm not making much HP at the engine............(engien way slower than the power band)

So what am I gonna do?  I'm gonna down shift to 5th, or maybe even 4th....get that engine up to 7000 or more.....I still have to open the throttle wide to make HP too....now the bike will accelerate nicely...because the engine is making more power......

Now if you want to talk torque...we could say the by down shifting, we are adding torque to the rear wheel.........BUT DOWN SHIFTING ALONE DOES NOT ADD ANY TORQUE AT ALL......DOWNSHIFTING ALLOWS THE ENGINE TO SPIN FASTER, WHICH GENERATES MORE ENGINE HP WHICH DELIVERS MORE POWER TO THE REAR WHEEL..  YOU HAVE TO DOWN SHIFT AND ADD THROTTLE!!!

In choosing a lower gear, we are also relieving some torque from the engine, allowing the engine to speed up.........The "magic"  here is the nature of piston engines...as they speed up, they produce both more HP and more torque...at high revs the torque drops a bit but HP keeps going up....

As engine HP goes up, so does power to the rear wheel, so does the bikes speed, and so does the acceleration....

So the point (finally) is that POWER is needed to move.....more POWER is needed to move faster, and even more POWER is needed to accelerate..........

A piston engine makes it's most power at high rev's..........

We simply use gear ratios in order to keep the engine reving high (if we want to go fast or accelerate quickly) 

Cookie

[twocool]

50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM = ~ 71 HP and 50 Ftlbs at 7500 WRPM
50 ftlbs of torque at 7500 RPM / a 2:1 ratio = ~71 HP and 100 Ftlbs at 3750 WRPM

Since the RPM does not stay constant and is divided by the gear ratio, the Horsepower number stays the same and the torque is multiplied by the gears.

Nice numbers.
To put it in terms that maybe more people can understand, lets talk "levers", in the non-rotational world.

Lets say you have a 2ft lever, and you're trying to apply force to something to move it. You are able to apply 100lb of force , applied over some fixed amount of movement space.

If you change to using a 4ft lever/crowbar, you may be able to apply an effective amount of 200lb of force, but you'll only be able to move the thing 1/2 as far, if your amount of movement space stays the same. You dont get something for nothing.


Moving back to the rotational wheel world:
acceleration capability = torque.
If you change to the "2:1 ratio", you'll get a buttload more torque, so muchmuch more acceleration.... but you'll only be able to apply it for about half the speed.
So whereas before, the gear may take you from 0-20, now it will only take you to 0-10 before the engine redlines.

A gearing with massive amounts of torque, that is only usable within a range of x-(x+10) mph, is not that useful a thing

the GS500 is theoretically capable of hitting 130mph.
If you are interested in aceleration only within mostly legal ranges, then it might be worth while to change up the gearing for our GS500s, so that it tops out at ... 80mph?

Yes!  The only way to accelerate is the add excess torque to the wheel....there is a certain amount of torque at the wheel just to maintain speed...if you increase this torque you will increase speed....(accelerate)

The only way to increase the torque is to increse engine power  (or slow the wheel)

You can use down shifting to slow down...........(close throttle, shift down...torque goes up at rear wheel and speed goes down...bike slows down..engine produces less power..

You can use down shift to speed up...open throttle, shift down, torque goes up, speed goes up, because engine is makeing more power....

Ultimately the difference between slowing or speeding up is engine power, not gearing...as the example above shows.....