Rant: Just my GS, or are all bikes going to be this much of a PITA ?

[elementxero]

I just want to post to say that I COMPLETELY relate.

I bought my 94 GS500 with 2k miles on it this summer, about 3 months back, having never messed around with much of anything mechanical.

I've put maybe 50 miles on it over the course of 3 hours.

I've spent probably 50 hours working on it.  Spent another 300+ on parts and manuals and tools. 

Resealed gas tank, redid all fuel hoses, rejetted, new o-rings all around, new needle and seat, and it still doesn't run.  It's still sitting in my driveway.

I'm completely and utterly defeated and when I see my motorcycle covered in my driveway I just feel guilt that I even bought it.  I feel guilty that I don't use every single (rare) day off that I get to work on it before the winter gives me an excuse not to.  I can't afford the ridiculous labor cost to take it to a pro and I'm not sure what else to do even if I did get positive and try to figure it out.

I guess all I'm saying is that you're not alone.  If I could do it all over again I'd have spent more and gotten something fuel injected.  As it is now I just feel like a twofold idiot for buying an older bike then thinking I could actually get it running.

I expected my GS to be a source of fun and excitement, but all it's been is a huge lump of disappointment, obligation, stress, and guilt.

[adidasguy]

I don't have problems and everyone I know with a GS500 here doesn't have problems. Like any vehicle, there is the occasional lemon. I think back to other bikes I had 30 years ago. never had problems - then I never did take them apart or do much in maintenance.

I don't see why fuel injection is the solution. It has its own set of problems. Carbs have been around for over a hundred years. They work. Carbs don't work if messed up. Fuel injection won't work if it is messed up.

In my software business, I tend to see 99% of the problems with 0.1% of the people. I think there are people that just always do the wrong thing or can't see a simple solution and only make things worse.

Thinking back on what I have seen on this board, it seems there are a few people with 99% of the problems. The rest of us never have a problem. I don't know what it is. Maybe the Red-Green saying is true: "If it ain't broke, you're not trying hard enough."

Maybe it is that some people just keep doing things and keep doing it wrong. I don't know. I remember cousins when I grew up who always had to work on their car. They were never reliable. Maybe they never fixed things right or with the slightest problem, felt they had to tear into things. I've had to repair a couple things on Trey. But before I tore into things, I thought about the problem and had friends and the dealer also offer tips. It was never un-rideable, but had some annoying things. Ended up just replacing the steering bearings. Rather than tear into wheels and everything else, we took time to find the one solution.

Same with the grinding in the chain. Some people would have started tearing into things, replacing gears, bearings and anything else. We took time to determine it was just the un-oiled chain started to stick when it was oiled. Part of it was determining when the problem started. Thinking back, I remembered it started shortly after oiling the chain. Determined it was with each revolution of the chain - not each revolution of the wheel. Ergo, not wheel bearings but most likely the chain - which it was upon examination (see postings of the frozen links in the chain.).

Again, I really don't know  the source of all the problems just a couple people always have. Neither can I understand the need to tear into the carbs on a weekly basis unless whoever is doing it is doing it wrong or there is a bad part in there that they are not seeing and replacing.

We have read of people who want to do everything as cheap as possible. They need a battery and want to save $5 so they go cheap at wally-world, only to have a battery with the terminals reversed, vent tube on the wrong side and then start complaining about how bad the GS500 is because their battery never stays charged and they must have a battery tender. Spend a few dollars more for a better battery and you never have a problem. Don't want to spend $75 or more for a top quality battery? Then don't complain about batteries.

A lot of things can be fixed by carefully analyzing the problem. Indicator bulbs blowing all the time? Turn signals never working right? Well, Junior developed a problem of the headlight blowing. Hmmm..... electricity. What blows a headlight? Too much of it? So I took a meter and measured. Voltage right on. Revved the engine - over 18 volts! Wow! That can blow a 12 volt bulb and I know a digital meter only does averaging. If I looked at it on a scope I'd probably have seen voltage spikes way higher. Probably an analog meter I'd see the needle flipping higher. What could that be? There is a voltage regulator - nothing else regulates the voltage. The faster the engine goes the more electricity it makes and a higher voltage, too. So replaced that with a spare and problem solved. What it comes down to is examining the problem and finding the right solution. So if your bulbs are always blowing, then you probably need to replace the regulator and first check things with a meter. Don't want to spend $100 for a new one or $25 for a used one? Then don't complain about bulbs always going out.

Maybe someone has a lemon or maybe some people will always have problems - like my cousin that always had to be working on his car. Maybe someone needs to spend a little more to get things fixed correctly and be done with it. Maybe you sometimes just need to accept that everything isn't perfect - so you use the choke more on one bike than another - that's they way they are.

You have ugly people who are happy and everyone likes. Then you had Michael Jackson and the never ending plastic surgery to become beautiful that resulted in a walking corpse. Maybe some people are destined to always have problems. Maybe some people are just unlucky.

I don't have an answer. And that's just my opinion.

[rayshon]

that is a long aaaaaaass post! lol

you have to realize that probably 10% (rough guess, probably higher) of the people that own GS's come to this forum, half of those people(another probably wrong guesstimate) come here to deal with problems.

So yeah you are right when .01% of the people have the problems, but this forum is to help the .01% (including me  )

I know you ride yours a lot, but what do you do as far as preventative maintenance for carbs/the fuel system?

[adidasguy]

Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I do basic things like good gas, fuel additive, keep things clean.

I'm not about to tear into perfectly good working carbs until I start to see a problem. I believe in less is better. If it is working fine, how can I make it better if I tear into it?

I do other basic maintenance as one would expect, like oil, greasing things, cleaning things, etc.
If there is a problem or I can tell something is getting worse, I will try to determine exactly what it is. I have neither the time nor the desire to rip everything apart with no idea of what the problem really is.

I have had problems with Trey and posted here for opinions. Maybe a tinkerer would have gone right in and removed the wheel, remounted the tire or other things. I took my time to really know the problem then we changed the steering bearings (which really weren't bearings any more, just rusty gunk that used to maybe be a bearing). Trey wasn't un-rideable. He just started to ride strange after 10 minutes or so. So I could deal with it while looking for the solution. Seemed the non-bearings would warm up and cause the steering column to not move freely, so the bike felt like a flat tire and wouldn't automatically want to go straight. Like I said, if I was a tinkerer I would have been ripping into everything.

Less is better - know the problem then fix it.

Every time you open up something you run the risk of doing more harm than good.
I agree that lots of people come here to solve problems. Just seems that only a couple really have continuing, serious problems. Like my problems, most are simple to diagnose and get solved.

Sometimes it is a choice: spend countless hours on something I don't know how to fix (and not be able to ride) or spend $200 for a good set of used carbs that are known to be working, plop them on and go riding.
I'm fortunate to have more than one bike so I could tear one apart if I wanted to and still be able to ride. My choice is to spend a little more money and spend less time wrenching.

The time will come when I do have to tear into things. Trey's previous owners did not take good care of him (steering bearings, chain, etc.). In preparation for that I am collecting spare parts. When time for carbs: I have a spare set I can work on then just swap them. Wheels: I have spares so I can get tires & bearings on them, then just swap out the wheels. Same with forks: I bought spares, fixed them in spare time then took half an hour to swap them out on Junior. Now his leaking forks are in a box and will be repaired as time permits. Having spares means the bike is kept running and only down for as long as it takes to swap out a part.

Brakes: I found it cheaper and easier to buy used calipers from Pinwall for $15 from a 2009 with 1000 miles than to buy new pads and rebuild the old ones. As long we have an endless supply of squids crashing their new bikes, there will be plenty of perfectly good parts to just swap with the old ones. I even got brake rotors and calipers from a bike with 240 miles. Like-new parts for less than it would cost to rebuild the old parts.

Yes, I am replacing brake lines with SS. I am putting on new tach and throttle cables on Trey. As I mentioned - when you dig into something you can do more damage. Those cables got pulled on and were damaged when we removed the front end. They are OK, but I can see their life is limited so I am replacing them now before they fall off. Pulling around all the wires when I put in a headlight cut-out relay (when pressing the start button), the tach cable got bumped a lot. I saw it coming off and knew the throttle cable had been damaged, so I'm replacing both before complete failure. Fix one thing: something else can get broken, which is why I feel less messing around is better.

When I get into carbs, I'll clean the spare set. Then swap them. If bike runs worse, I'll swap back then figure out what I did wrong as time permits. Then swap them and see if I did it right. There are advantages to being a parts whore.

[gs500e]

So today the new jets arrived.  (That was quick, thanks PJMotorsports)
I swapped them out.  I lowered the float level a wee bit (didn't check with clear tube yet).    And I found a problem, and re-discovered another:  Main jets were different... now they are the same (re-discovered: same size but different brands perhaps... one had a larger than normal 'collar' on it).  And i found a vacuum leak at the vacuum port 'plug' (i must have damaged it last time i removed it... or maybe it's been pin-holed the whole time, and just now got a good rip in it).  [Don't get me started on the jet different... thing... i don't hold grudges... that is over... it is ok now].  I'm not going to over think the float level (and sync'ing) until the new needle/seats arrive though.   

I did all that with a flashlight in my mouth... kinda fun(not).  Got done, took it for a very quick ride.  It had more power than has ever had... wasn't a gutless pig.  On warmup it sputtered and spat... but it was throwing some fuel out the exhaust (I finally got it rich rather than lean, YAY) and was backfiring out the exhaust rather than out the carb.  Once warmed up it was a little doggy on the low end; okay it was a lot doggy on the low end (could just need the pilot screws turned in a bit?  Oh, i should hold-off until the float seats are replaced eh).  But from mid to WOT.... i actually had to hang on to it and pay attention rather than doing the 'knee out, head bent to the side, look at the engine as if i'm going to 'see' something wrong with it' thing.  Was only about a one mile ride (i had not geared up beyond helmet).  Then it started raining so it was dinner time.
Oh and it sounded much better too above 3k rpm.  I accidentally revved it up to about 9k in neutral because it got there so much quicker than i am use to it doing.  I was expecting it to make the 'intake' sound and rpm's barely creep... but instead it made a 'chain saw' sound and revved quick.   

The best news is that i'm getting good at pulling the carbs off, did it in less than ten minutes for the first time.  The biggest help is that i have the tools laid out on my 'motorcycle tool tray' (an old pizza/baking pan) (i don't have a garage, and the shed is full of other toys and stuff; so i work on the bike in the street most of the time) and i have the twelve step process down to a science now.   

Looks like the rain is going to be here for a while, so i will have to get a good ride in tomorrow and see how it goes... or better yet the needles/seats could arrive... and i'll get to wrench on it some more tomorrow, and go for a ride this weekend (knock on wood).   

(I'm not afraid to ride in the rain with proper gear on and i get caught in it... but i don't generally purposely ride in the rain... remember i'm still a noob to riding (had a good 1500 miles last year in 3 months, <200 this year, yay.)   

Well that was today's update anyway. 

[GI_JO_NATHAN]

That's really awesome man! I'm glad to hear you're getting it figured out.

[adidasguy]

Glad you discovered the cause of so many problems.

Now you can ride and enjoy your bike.

[gs500e]

It's not that great yet.

Took it for a ride.  Sometimes it would accelerate very well, ran out of legal speeds fairly quick on back roads.
Other times it would just be a dog.  Most of the time really.  Giving throttle wouldn't necessarily create any more accleration whet it was being a dog.  But when it worked it was a lot of fun.
At first i thought it was running better after idling for a little while... then i disproved that at a few stop signs, and by intentionally stopping for a bit, then going again; or by pulling in clutch and idling downhill.
It was very inconsistent, i found no habits that caused it, improved it, or had consistent results.

But what is known to be inconsistent on this bike: float needles.  So hopefully those will get here soon.

It is certainly rich at idle (better than lean i reckon).  Mid throttle seems to be the most inconsistent.  WOT was either a rocket (okay more like a bottle rocket) or a dog.  Sometimes everything would click, and it would accelerate out of no where at WOT... so things must be close to being right now.
I am going to disassemble the needles some time and post pics and what order things are in... since i am not sure what order they should all be in... and i'm guessing i should richen them up a wee bit? or leave stock?  (some posts about enriching from stock mentioned adding washers, some didn't mention the needles at all, some said they left them alone... so i don't know.)  I still need to do the valves too; which i should get to this weekend; then sync carbs.

BUT!  It was a BLAST getting out of the neighborhood on it!   

[gs500e]

Success!

Changed out: float needles and seats, floats (taken from my spare 06' carbs), set the float level.  Checked a few things over, but found no issues.

Started better, warmed up better, ran for 30 miles better... about to find out if it will run better for another few miles.


rant/

[GI_JO_NATHAN]

Sweet!! Good luck. It's strange that the 06 carbs them selves didn't improve it from the get go..

[rayshon]

Sometimes everything would click, and it would accelerate out of no where at WOT

What causes this?

Sometimes when I go from closed throttle to open quickly (like blipping the throttle to revmatch for a downshift) it'll just "click"...wtf is that?

[GI_JO_NATHAN]

Sometimes everything would click, and it would accelerate out of no where at WOT

What causes this?

Sometimes when I go from closed throttle to open quickly (like blipping the throttle to revmatch for a downshift) it'll just "click"...wtf is that?

I think you he may be talking about a different kind of click..

Yours sounds like maybe a throttle cable issue, or linkage maybe.

[Dr.McNinja]

I don't have problems and everyone I know with a GS500 here doesn't have problems. Like any vehicle, there is the occasional lemon. I think back to other bikes I had 30 years ago. never had problems - then I never did take them apart or do much in maintenance.

I don't see why fuel injection is the solution. It has its own set of problems. Carbs have been around for over a hundred years. They work. Carbs don't work if messed up. Fuel injection won't work if it is messed up.

Fuel injection is more reliable for one. You should know this in the software business. The less moving parts, the less there is to break and when it breaks it's easy to fix. Carbs are nothing but moving parts and tiny seals. Any one of these tiny seals being fractions of a mm off causes a problem that could cause you to replace or rebuild the entire unit. Carbs and fuel injection do the same thing, yes, but carbs are more prone to minute mechanical failure and have to be warmed up properly before use. The cost in labor to find the problem often equates the cost of fixing a fuel injection problem (for which a computer tells you the EXACT problem). However, it's a lot harder to break a fuel injection system.


Fuel injection has it's own problems. All of them are quickly diagnosed by the on board computer, reported back on a laptop, and analyzed all without opening the machine. If it doesn't do that, it will give you a good starting point before you start to tear it down.


All in all, fuel injection and carbs have problems but you'll spend more money maintaining carbs than fuel injection. Fuel injection should be the defacto standard. Why it's not is the same reason that Harley doesn't give you the best parts in your off-the-lot bobber. They want you to spend money so you have to come and fix it. When you don't, you will pay the extra money for the more reliable system.

[mister]

Fuel injection should be the defacto standard. Why it's not is the same reason that Harley doesn't give you the best parts in your off-the-lot bobber. They want you to spend money so you have to come and fix it. When you don't, you will pay the extra money for the more reliable system.

With the exception of HDs, carb bikes are cheaper new. From a business point of view, it gets a customer in the door. Once in, they will, at some point in time, buy another bike. Get them in, then upsell them later. It's not about buying something reliable later (to the manufacturer, they need to make something reliable otherwise it will get a bad name and not sell and they lose the initial customer).

But I am with addy on this one... those who seem to have the most problems are those who mess around the most. Did the messing around cause all the issues, or did the issues cause the messing around, or did it become a chain of cause and effect - small issues caused messing which caused more issues which caused more messing and more issues ad infinitum.



On the bright side Angry Icon Man, you seem to be making some progress. 

Michael

[Suzuki Stevo]

Fuel injection is more reliable for one.

That's like saying "water cooled bikes are more reliable than air cooled" If I wanted a super reliable bike, it would have a carb and cooling fins. No water pump, radiator, radiator hoses, fuel pump or ECU. Because it's not open to the atmosphere FI is less prone to have gumming or plugging issues from varnish. 90% of all carb issues are caused by the owner not using proper storage precautions. If you ride a bike year round, carbs work fine, if you store a bike correctly, carbs work fine. Having more things that can fail and leave you stranded on the side of the road will never make anything more reliable.

[Dr.McNinja]

Fuel injection is more reliable for one.

That's like saying "water cooled bikes are more reliable than air cooled" If I wanted a super reliable bike, it would have a carb and cooling fins. No water pump, radiator, radiator hoses, fuel pump or ECU. Because it's not open to the atmosphere FI is less prone to have gumming or plugging issues from varnish. 90% of all carb issues are caused by the owner not using proper storage precautions. If you ride a bike year round, carbs work fine, if you store a bike correctly, carbs work fine. Having more things that can fail and leave you stranded on the side of the road will never make anything more reliable.

Arguing people being stupid as a reason to keep an inferior technology is ignorant. Carbs are anything but simple. If you want simplicity you'd have an EFI system. Reliability is judged in points of failure and let's face it - EFI has very few points of failure when sat up against a carb. Of course they are both compromised by varnish but arguing varnish as a reason to not move to a superior technology would also be foolish.

100% of problems are caused by the thing between the handlebars and the exhaust pipe. Arguing any of them as a reason to stay with a inferior technology is foolish. Economics, price, maintainability, and power are all reasons to go to EFI. If carbs were so awesome why would all the new model bikes have EFI? It's both emissions friendly and race friendly. If you have a laptop and a power commander you can work on an EFI bike just as easily as a carb bike. There really is no argument here. 

[bigfatcat]

CArbs best .

FI is too complicated for noobs on a budget , on older bikes, new to wrenching ...

The gs carbs are simple simple - much preferred over ECU/FI, fuel pump, pump relay, fuses, associated wiring, all stuff that can  go wrong somewhere sometime especially on an older bike.

And make sure u have a laptop when that FI bike strands u on the side of the highway so u can plug in and do a little computerized troubleshooting. Because the ECU wants to tell u exactly how to fix , what to fix ... or how to kludge temporary to at least make it to the next town...  ?

OTH, new bike, need for speed, need to dominate street gran prix , fat wallet - yes to FI.

[BaltimoreGS]

Has anybody else noticed that quite a few posts seem to be turning into arguments here lately??  Can't we all just get along   

-Jessie

[gtscott]

if u want to get realy technical an ecu has multiple failure points within itself, multiple circits that can die, and most advanced efi set ups have a wide array of sensors that can play up and cause all sorts of hell, then on top of it, the codes the ecu throw can be completly useless, this is just experience with cars yet id assume bikes would be the same, were as carbys, once you have an understanding of how it works, then u pull them apart you can see how simple they are.

[Suzuki Stevo]

Arguing people being stupid as a reason to keep an inferior technology is ignorant. Carbs are anything but simple. If you want simplicity you'd have an EFI system. Reliability is judged in points of failure and let's face it - EFI has very few points of failure when sat up against a carb. Of course they are both compromised by varnish but arguing varnish as a reason to not move to a superior technology would also be foolish.

100% of problems are caused by the thing between the handlebars and the exhaust pipe. Arguing any of them as a reason to stay with a inferior technology is foolish. Economics, price, maintainability, and power are all reasons to go to EFI. If carbs were so awesome why would all the new model bikes have EFI? It's both emissions friendly and race friendly. If you have a laptop and a power commander you can work on an EFI bike just as easily as a carb bike. There really is no argument here.

Your first misconception is assuming that I am arguing (three times), or ignorant (once), neither am I foolish (twice) or a fool, this is a discussion forum and we are discussing bikes/carbs/EFI. You obviously have never had a group ride come to a grinding halt from a fuel pump failure?  After 45 years of dealing with carbs on bikes..I have yet to be stranded on the side of the road by one.