Missing oil

[phendric]

I bought my 2001 GS500 in the middle of August, and have ridden it almost every day since then, as it's my commuter bike.  Since buying it, I've probably put 4 or 5 quarts of oil in it - that's 4-5 quarts of oil in a 2 1/2 month period.  First, there were leaks - I had the shop replace several gaskets in the top end of the engine, and then a leak developed at the bottom of the engine, at which point I decided to replace the gasket myself - I did this about a month ago.  Had to put in more oil after fixing each leak.

I think that now, though, I'm done with leaks.  How is it, then, that when I went out this morning to check the oil level, the dip stick came out with nothing on it?  When I filled the engine with oil a month ago, the level came almost to the full mark.  The oil pressure light goes off when I start the engine, but I'm not seeing anything show on the dip stick.  Where has it all gone?  Again, I think I've been able to rule out leaks - there was a small one coming from the oil drain plug, but not a huge one - when I left the bike for a 4-day trip, I came back and there was a single drop of oil on the cement - not enough to account for a whole bunch of oil being gone.  Is the engine burning oil?  Is the dip stick just marved?

Any suggestions about where to look would be really helpful, as I'm not sure where to look, and I don't want to blow my engine up.

[ivany]

You're not checking it with the bike running, are you? And on center stand, on a flat surface?

[vinny]

You are checking the oil with the bike on the center stand, right?

Just in case:
Bike onto center stand.
Unscrew oil dipstick, remove and wipe clean
Place dipstick back into its hole. Do not screw back in, just rest it on the top of the threads.
Wait a few seconds
Remove dipstick and check level.

[phendric]

You are checking the oil with the bike on the center stand, right?

Just in case:
Bike onto center stand.
Unscrew oil dipstick, remove and wipe clean
Place dipstick back into its hole. Do not screw back in, just rest it on the top of the threads.
Wait a few seconds
Remove dipstick and check level.

This exactly.  But add that I run the bike for 3-5 minutes to warm it up before checking the oil level.

How many seconds is a "few?"  5 or 30?

[twocool]

Do not check oil level with the bike on the center stand!  Not on the side stand either.   Bike must be level, front to back, side to side on both wheels with no rider........

But sounds like you have far bigger problem!!

What do the spark plugs look like???

Smoke out of exhaust??

How many miles do you go to get a quart low?

Cookie

[phendric]

Do not check oil level with the bike on the center stand!  Not on the side stand either.   Bike must be level, front to back, side to side on both wheels with no rider........

But sounds like you have far bigger problem!!

What do the spark plugs look like???

Smoke out of exhaust??

How many miles do you go to get a quart low?

Cookie

I've read conflicting sets of instructions on how to check the oil - some say to do it on the center stand, and others say to do it while on no stand at all, while the bike is sitting on flat ground.  How someone is supposed to comfortably check the oil level with one hand while holding the bike perfectly upright with the other hand beats me, so I decided to go with checking on the center stand.  When the dipstick came up showing no oil at all, I panicked, and shifted the balance of the bike from the front wheel to the back wheel (while on center stand), and checked again, but still showed nothing.

I pulled the plugs a month ago, when I replaced the big gasket on the lower left engine case, and they looked perfect.  Not too light, not too dark...

I do get smoke out of the exhaust every 2-3 days, when I start up the bike and am letting it warm up.  Dark, black smoke, though, not blue.  It can be hard to see, though, because I rarely start up the bike in full sunlight (I usually do it in a covered car port or a dark parking structure).

How many miles?  I don't really know - haven't been paying attention.  I've put 1700 miles on the bike in 2.5 months, so 4 quarts of oil, put in at evenly spaced intervals, would give a rough estimate of 425 miles/quart.

[Mad Dog]

Wont the oil take a min or two to drain back down the the bottom end if its been running for 5mins??

[phendric]

Wont the oil take a min or two to drain back down the the bottom end if its been running for 5mins??

Yes, it will.  I'll check the level again, before I leave work, and give the oil time to drain to the bottom after warming the engine up.

[GI_JO_NATHAN]

Just for the heck of it, why don't you check it before starting just to see where it's at.

[scratch]

How is it, then, that when I went out this morning to check the oil level, the dip stick came out with nothing on it?

Here's your problem.  You are checking the oil on a cold motor.

Check your oil level after a ride.
Either on the centerstand or off the sidestand, it only matters by a mm or two.
Personally, I wait an hour after riding before checking.

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=2808.msg21617#msg21617

[phendric]

Here's your problem.  You are checking the oil on a cold motor.

Define "cold motor" please?  I said in one of the posts above that I let it run for 3-5 minutes to warm up before checking...

Is it really possible to have so much variation in oil level due to 1) cold engine, 2) center stand vs no stand, 3) not waiting long enough for oil to settle before checking that it can go from being the proper level to not showing at all?

[twocool]

Do not check oil level with the bike on the center stand!  Not on the side stand either.   Bike must be level, front to back, side to side on both wheels with no rider........

But sounds like you have far bigger problem!!

What do the spark plugs look like???

Smoke out of exhaust??

How many miles do you go to get a quart low?

Cookie

I've read conflicting sets of instructions on how to check the oil - some say to do it on the center stand, and others say to do it while on no stand at all, while the bike is sitting on flat ground.  How someone is supposed to comfortably check the oil level with one hand while holding the bike perfectly upright with the other hand beats me, so I decided to go with checking on the center stand.  When the dipstick came up showing no oil at all, I panicked, and shifted the balance of the bike from the front wheel to the back wheel (while on center stand), and checked again, but still showed nothing.

I pulled the plugs a month ago, when I replaced the big gasket on the lower left engine case, and they looked perfect.  Not too light, not too dark...

I do get smoke out of the exhaust every 2-3 days, when I start up the bike and am letting it warm up.  Dark, black smoke, though, not blue.  It can be hard to see, though, because I rarely start up the bike in full sunlight (I usually do it in a covered car port or a dark parking structure).

How many miles?  I don't really know - haven't been paying attention.  I've put 1700 miles on the bike in 2.5 months, so 4 quarts of oil, put in at evenly spaced intervals, would give a rough estimate of 425 miles/quart.

Oil checking....no conflict....do it "by the book" Owner's manual that is.

Warm up bike to normal operating temp.  Shut engine off and wait  3 to 5 minutes.

Unscrew oil cap/dipstick

Clean off dipstick with paper towel until dipstick is dry

Insert dipstick into engine but don't screw in...cap just sitting with no threads screwed in

Grap handle bars with two hands and  bring bike to vertical off of sidestand.....don't sit on bike

Leave vertical for a few seconds so oil will grab onto dipstick

Let bike down onto sidestand again

remove dipstick and check level..

If you uses 4 quarts in 1700 miles you have big big problem!!!

Some say 1 Quart in 1000 miles is acceptable but I don't think so for bikes.....

My old honda began using like a quart every 500 miles...bad valve guides....and rings...

Your bike is either burning or leaking or both.......

Do a compression test......

Burning oil will usually turn the blugs black and oily

leaking will usually leave engine all wet and oily, and leave oil puddle on garage floor when you park it.

Cookie

[twocool]

Here's your problem.  You are checking the oil on a cold motor.

Define "cold motor" please?  I said in one of the posts above that I let it run for 3-5 minutes to warm up before checking...

Is it really possible to have so much variation in oil level due to 1) cold engine, 2) center stand vs no stand, 3) not waiting long enough for oil to settle before checking that it can go from being the proper level to not showing at all?

to answer your questions above...No!

Cold engine, sitting overnight will still show oil on dipstick...maybe slightly low, like 1/4" low, but will still show on dipstick.  Bike on centerstand will show a little bit low too.....bike leans forward on center stand...so oil goes to front of crankcase...reads low on dipstick,  but just a little...

The only danger is improper dipstick reading, is if it reads false low, and you then overfill to compensate.....

If you're coming up with no reading at all on dipstick, you are using oil at a high rate of consumption....big problem!

You do have the correct dipstick?  Right??

Cookie

[phendric]

Ok...for everyone who has suggested that I might check the oil a different way than I have already...I checked it three different times once finishing my work day:

1) Before I ever turned on the engine - dipstick showed no oil.
2) After running the engine for ~5 minutes to warm it up, and then shutting it off and waiting for ~3 minutes for the oil to settle - dipstick showed no oil.
3) After riding the 12 miles home, and waiting for an hour - dipstick showed no oil.

So...I think that everyone should be able to agree that the dipstick is showing no oil.  Now, back to my original question - WHY?

@Cookie/twocool: how do I tell if I have the correct dipstick?  It fits the threaded hole, so the only other thing I could think of is that it's too long or too short.  Once the kids are in bed in a few minutes, I'll go out and measure its length.

[BaltimoreGS]

Now, back to my original question - WHY?

The short answer is if the oil level has gone down you have either leaked it or burned.  Some oil consumption is normal.  The thing to do now is to fill the bike with oil until it reads full by whatever method you prefer, note the mileage, and see how fast the oil level falls as you ride the bike (make sure you check the oil the same way as the way you filled it).  Generally, it is 1 quart between the low and full marks on dipsticks.  If the consumptions is excessive, then you have to figure out where it went (bad valve seals, poorly sealing rings, gasket leak...).  Good luck    

-Jessie

[phendric]

Just measured the dipstick in my bike - it's 6.25" from the end of the stick to the beginning of the threads.  Can anyone verify that that's how long it should be?

@BaltimoreGS: I'll pay attention to how quickly I'm losing oil when I add more oil either tomorrow or Friday.  What is the "normal" consumption rate?

[Dr.McNinja]

Ok...for everyone who has suggested that I might check the oil a different way than I have already...I checked it three different times once finishing my work day:

1) Before I ever turned on the engine - dipstick showed no oil.
2) After running the engine for ~5 minutes to warm it up, and then shutting it off and waiting for ~3 minutes for the oil to settle - dipstick showed no oil.
3) After riding the 12 miles home, and waiting for an hour - dipstick showed no oil.

So...I think that everyone should be able to agree that the dipstick is showing no oil.  Now, back to my original question - WHY?

@Cookie/twocool: how do I tell if I have the correct dipstick?  It fits the threaded hole, so the only other thing I could think of is that it's too long or too short.  Once the kids are in bed in a few minutes, I'll go out and measure its length.

If your bike is completely stock I don't see why you'd have a bad dipstick. I've personally never heard of someone modifying their dipstick. A broken dipstick is fairly obvious. This would be the first case in every single car and motorcycle I've checked the oil on that the dipstick would be short.


Here's my question. If you're not showing any oil, but you're riding it and the bike's pistons haven't seized, why is the dipstick not showing any oil? If you actually didn't have any oil you'd know it pretty quickly. You'd get down the street, the oil in your cylinders would go away, and you'd hear lots of bad things coming from your engine shortly before it seized up.

By contradiction, I'd say that you DO have oil. In fact, I'd say you have enough oil to drive 12 miles with the dipstick showing no oil and your engine not seizing. There's one way that no one has suggested. Drain your oil. Oil comes out? You have oil (like I suggest). Oil doesn't come out? You're the luckiest son-of-Buddha Loves You alive. Running your bike how you have with zero oil would have definitely destroyed the engine in short order. From there you can figure out why your oil level isn't showing on your dipstick. As stupid as it sounds, is there anything blocking the path of the dipstick to the oil? I don't know how something could've got in there and not screwed something up, but at this point that's just as likely as you have a short dipstick.

[phendric]

Here's my question. If you're not showing any oil, but you're riding it and the bike's pistons haven't seized, why is the dipstick not showing any oil? If you actually didn't have any oil you'd know it pretty quickly. You'd get down the street, the oil in your cylinders would go away, and you'd hear lots of bad things coming from your engine shortly before it seized up.

By contradiction, I'd say that you DO have oil. In fact, I'd say you have enough oil to drive 12 miles with the dipstick showing no oil and your engine not seizing. There's one way that no one has suggested. Drain your oil. Oil comes out? You have oil (like I suggest). Oil doesn't come out? You're the luckiest son-of-Buddha Loves You alive. Running your bike how you have with zero oil would have definitely destroyed the engine in short order. From there you can figure out why your oil level isn't showing on your dipstick. As stupid as it sounds, is there anything blocking the path of the dipstick to the oil? I don't know how something could've got in there and not screwed something up, but at this point that's just as likely as you have a short dipstick.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that the bike has no oil in it...I certainly haven't.  I only said that the dipstick doesn't show any oil.  To answer your question about why the dipstick isn't showing oil if the pistons haven't seized yet, that answer seems pretty simple.  The oil capacity of the engine is a little over 3 quarts.  Yet, as BaltimoreGS pointed out, the difference between the empty mark and the full mark on the dipstick is usually only about a quart.  If that hold true for the GS500, then the engine could have about 2 quarts in the engine, enough to keep things decently lubricated, and the pressure high enough that the pressure light doesn't come on, but not high enough to hit the bottom of the dipstick.

It's obvious that I'm losing oil somehow, though - I just don't know how it's happening, which is a bit worrisome.

[mister]

phendric,

Go to the wiki - http://wiki.gstwins.com - select Maintenance and then How To books. There you'll see a link to an Owners Manual.

Page 6-10 of the manual says...

"The level on the dipstick should be between the L (low) and F (full) lines.

The oil level inspection should be performed under the following conditions:
1. Hold the motorcycle vertically without the center stand.
2. The oil filler cap threads are NOT run in but touching the filler hole upper edge"

It does not say to warm the bike or anything. In fact it also says "Check the oil level with the dipstick, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground BEFORE each use of the motorcycle."

Okay. Doing it the right was as Suzuki says to do it, you have no reading on the dipstick. As there are no leaks the only possible thing left is, you are burning it off. To help verify, pull out your spark plugs, take a photo and post it here. Or refer to the sparkplug charts below





Michael

[twocool]

Ok...for everyone who has suggested that I might check the oil a different way than I have already...I checked it three different times once finishing my work day:

1) Before I ever turned on the engine - dipstick showed no oil.
2) After running the engine for ~5 minutes to warm it up, and then shutting it off and waiting for ~3 minutes for the oil to settle - dipstick showed no oil.
3) After riding the 12 miles home, and waiting for an hour - dipstick showed no oil.


So...I think that everyone should be able to agree that the dipstick is showing no oil.  Now, back to my original question - WHY?

@Cookie/twocool: how do I tell if I have the correct dipstick?  It fits the threaded hole, so the only other thing I could think of is that it's too long or too short.  Once the kids are in bed in a few minutes, I'll go out and measure its length.

If your bike is completely stock I don't see why you'd have a bad dipstick. I've personally never heard of someone modifying their dipstick. A broken dipstick is fairly obvious. This would be the first case in every single car and motorcycle I've checked the oil on that the dipstick would be short.


Here's my question. If you're not showing any oil, but you're riding it and the bike's pistons haven't seized, why is the dipstick not showing any oil? If you actually didn't have any oil you'd know it pretty quickly. You'd get down the street, the oil in your cylinders would go away, and you'd hear lots of bad things coming from your engine shortly before it seized up.

By contradiction, I'd say that you DO have oil. In fact, I'd say you have enough oil to drive 12 miles with the dipstick showing no oil and your engine not seizing. There's one way that no one has suggested. Drain your oil. Oil comes out? You have oil (like I suggest). Oil doesn't come out? You're the luckiest son-of-Buddha Loves You alive. Running your bike how you have with zero oil would have definitely destroyed the engine in short order. From there you can figure out why your oil level isn't showing on your dipstick. As stupid as it sounds, is there anything blocking the path of the dipstick to the oil? I don't know how something could've got in there and not screwed something up, but at this point that's just as likely as you have a short dipstick.

I've seen wrong dipstick installed in cars.   Original dipstick gets lost somehow, and backyard mechanic just takes another one from another car in the junkyard.  (not likely on gs)...but who knows?

If the diptick shown no reading, it is impossible to know if the crankcase has 3 quarts, or no quarts.   (unless you drain remaining oil into a pan and measure volume.
An engine will run surprisingly long time with very little oil...but don't try it.

A healthy GS should use almost no oil between oil changes.....like less than a quart for 3500 miles.

Some say they can't even notice any drop at all between oil changes...

This bike is leaking or burning.........do compression test next...

Cookie