Missing oil

[twocool]

Ever notice how a majority of the technical threads end up in an argument about EFI   

I've done my share of ranting because I think it is a waste of time trying to fab up an EFI system for the GS's antiquated engine, a properly tuned set of carbs work just fine.  But overall EFI is the superior set up (especially one with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust so the computer can set fuel trim).  If EFI is important to you, you shouldn't have bought a GS   

As far as warming up, I'm with Mister.  I just ride away with the choke on and turn it off a few miles down the road.  I'm a mechanic by trade and understand the engine wear issue.  The GS is a cheap commuter bike to me that can be replaced pretty easily, I'm just worried about getting to work in the morning   

Rant ended

-Jessie

Good points!   But, why the discussion on Fuel Injection when he GS500 has carbs? (the last time I looked)......

If Suzuki offered a nice 500 cc bike with EFI (but they don't, so this is a stupid discussion, but IF they did) , but it cost $1000 more ...it wouldn't interest me in the least....

$1000 represents 18,000 miles worth of gas to me..........

EFI is better in some respects than carb.....but it is not better in any resepct that matters in the least to me.......

My GS500 has been the perfect bike for me....I have no complaint whatsoever.....the bike exceeded all my expectations.......21,000 miles of trouble free enjoyment and service..

Cookie

[burning1]

Abruptness depends on the EFI system, and one person's abrupt is another person's 'responsive.' Most of the newer premium bikes either use ride by wire technology or a set of secondary computer controlled butterfly valves to soften the initial response to the throttle. On a CV carb like the one in our GS500s, the throttle controls a butterfly valve, but there's a vaccum operated slide that opens more slowly to help keep the engine from bogging down. The slide mellows throttle response significantly.

A set of flat-slide pumper carbs can be about as responsive as a modern EFI system; with them, the rider controls the slide directly, and a fuel pump injects gas as the slide opens to keep the engine from bogging as badly.

[phendric]

Back to topic:

Missing oil is still missing!!

Guy got different bike to mess with.

We may never know where the  oil went!?

I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean.  Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either).  Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.

Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike.  I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil.  Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.

My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.

Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?

[Dr.McNinja]

Back to topic:

Missing oil is still missing!!

Guy got different bike to mess with.

We may never know where the  oil went!?

I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean.  Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either).  Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.

Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike.  I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil.  Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.

My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.

Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?

Black smoke is usually richness last I checked. Blue smoke is typically oil, but if your Dad is a mechanic he was probably clued in by the smell and not the color. Oil burning is a very unique smell. You can't miss it.

There are UV dyes most mechanics use on cars to find leaks. After one of the more experienced guys chime in on if you can, see if your Dad has some lying around, you may be inclined to try it. It'll save you tearing down the engine if you can spot it by shining a UV light down a the various holes in the engine to spot leaks.

[twocool]

Back to topic:

Missing oil is still missing!!

Guy got different bike to mess with.

We may never know where the  oil went!?

I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean.  Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either).  Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.

Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike.  I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil.  Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.

My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.

Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?

Dude....

We already determined that like 50 posts ago!!   You need rings and valves....

Similar job on my Honda, done by local small shop was $800...........

Figure about the same for GS500...maybe less if aftermarket parts are available.....Honda had no after market parts so I had to pay premium honda prices.......

If you do the work yourself (doesn't seem like your up for this)  figure $400 for parts...

Just ballpark figures...

Cookie

[Dr.McNinja]

Back to topic:

Missing oil is still missing!!

Guy got different bike to mess with.

We may never know where the  oil went!?

I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean.  Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either).  Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.

Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike.  I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil.  Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.

My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.

Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?

Dude....

We already determined that like 50 posts ago!!   You need rings and valves....

Similar job on my Honda, done by local small shop was $800...........

Figure about the same for GS500...maybe less if aftermarket parts are available.....Honda had no after market parts so I had to pay premium honda prices.......

If you do the work yourself (doesn't seem like your up for this)  figure $400 for parts...

Just ballpark figures...

Cookie

On your Honda....


If it's a car of course it's going to be through the roof to replace seals. You have to take apart half a car to get to anything useful. That means more labor. Do you really think he needs new valves? New rings maybe, but valves?

[phendric]

We already determined that like 50 posts ago!!   You need rings and valves....

Rings and valves?  Both?  Or valve oil seals and/or piston rings?

Why new valves...?!?

[phendric]

Black smoke is usually richness last I checked. Blue smoke is typically oil, but if your Dad is a mechanic he was probably clued in by the smell and not the color. Oil burning is a very unique smell. You can't miss it.

He's not a certified mechanic, or anything, but he has done lots of mechanic work in his life, including dealing with burning oil on some of his own vehicles.  The smell was a dead giveaway, but he doesn't have dyes or anything to diagnose the source of the burning.  He thinks its the rings/seals because those are the most common problems, but it will take opening the engine up to do a visual check.

[twocool]

We already determined that like 50 posts ago!!   You need rings and valves....

Rings and valves?  Both?  Or valve oil seals and/or piston rings?

Why new valves...?!?

I'm talking Honda motorcycle....

Valves for two reasons....

Smoke on start up then less or no smoke when running means bad valve guides

If you're gonna tear down the engine just to do rings...you might as well replace other stuff Valves, guides etc....which is also probably worn or soon to wear out....

I suppose you could actually spec out and measure everything....if it is within spec tolerance....don't change....

Otherwise you're gonna pay twice for labor when the take it apart again....

We call this a "top  end overhaul" 

As I said earlier, this bike might not be worth the cost of repair........Good money after bad...maybe better to save the money for something else....


Cookie

[centuryghost]

He thinks its the rings/seals because those are the most common problems, but it will take opening the engine up to do a visual check.

Not necessarily, phendric. It is still worth doing a compression check to get a better idea whats going on inside before you open it up. Someone on this thread already told you to run the test, then run it again after squirting a bit of oil in each cylinder. If the compression raises after squirting the oil, then you have bad rings. If there is no change, more than likely it is valves.

[BaltimoreGS]

The UV dyes I'm familiar with are used for tracing external leaks, not for burning oil.  As centuryghost said, do a compression test before you start tearing things apart.  And decide what the bike is worth to you and how long you plan to keep it before dumping money into it.  If you don't plan to keep it long you could try running a heavier weight oil and see if it slows the consumption   

-Jessie

[phendric]

I still need to do a compression test, but I've been crazy busy and haven't had time to do much non-urgent stuff.  I think, somehow, that the bike doesn't start burning oil until I keep it at high RPMs for an extended period of time (i.e., freeway rides).  I went on a ride with my dad today, and he rode the GS for awhile.  As I followed him on the freeway, I was certain I was smelling burning oil out of the exhaust, even though I hadn't smelled it while following him down the mountain road...

Any particular problems that only manifest themselves in burning oil at high sustained RPMs?  I know, I know...do a compression test..

[Dr.McNinja]

I still need to do a compression test, but I've been crazy busy and haven't had time to do much non-urgent stuff.  I think, somehow, that the bike doesn't start burning oil until I keep it at high RPMs for an extended period of time (i.e., freeway rides).  I went on a ride with my dad today, and he rode the GS for awhile.  As I followed him on the freeway, I was certain I was smelling burning oil out of the exhaust, even though I hadn't smelled it while following him down the mountain road...

Any particular problems that only manifest themselves in burning oil at high sustained RPMs?  I know, I know...do a compression test..

I'm pretty sure burning a LITTLE oil at high RPMs is normal. That's why (among other reasons) you should change a track bike's oil every 3 or so track days. The harder you run your engine the more oil you burn/sheer/destroy.

You've got an amazing sense of smell if you can smell burning oil coming out of your exhaust (way behind you) on the freeway going 70+ MPH. You're probably thinking you smell it because you're looking for it. Have someone follow you. They'll DEFINITELY be able to smell it.

[tricky]

Hey everyone, I'm new here (got a naked '08). I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I really abuse my engine, most of my riding (including highway) is done over 6k RPM. I keep it down in the city, but most of the time the bike is working hard. I got my oil changed at 4800km, and by 6800km the dipstick was dry. It took a litre to get it back to full.

I read online that the GS500 is notorious for burning the stuff. I also read (not sure if it's true or not) that Suzuki says 1 litre per 1000km is acceptable? At any rate, next time it's in the shop I'll talk to the mechanic about it and see if anything needs to be done.

Oh, and I read a post online somewhere about someone having the same problem, burning a ton of oil. He said he now keeps it under 6k RPM and it's perfectly fine. But where's the fun in that? 

[Dr.McNinja]

Hey everyone, I'm new here (got a naked '08). I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I really abuse my engine, most of my riding (including highway) is done over 6k RPM. I keep it down in the city, but most of the time the bike is working hard. I got my oil changed at 4800km, and by 6800km the dipstick was dry. It took a litre to get it back to full.

I read online that the GS500 is notorious for burning the stuff. I also read (not sure if it's true or not) that Suzuki says 1 litre per 1000km is acceptable? At any rate, next time it's in the shop I'll talk to the mechanic about it and see if anything needs to be done.

Oh, and I read a post online somewhere about someone having the same problem, burning a ton of oil. He said he now keeps it under 6k RPM and it's perfectly fine. But where's the fun in that? 

My bike is going on 2000 miles (3200~ km) since it's last oil change. My dipstick isn't dry, but it reads about halfway up the dipstick.  I run my bike moderately hard, I tend to shift at higher RPMs and I leave my bike in a gear lower than the "cruising" gear for the road for quick get aways. I never hold it steady at anything above 6k for any amount of time, however.

I've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full. Of course, I'm following the proper procedure (resting on cap threads, bike suspended upright by the rider and not by the center stand, etc).

You have to remember bikes are MUCH harder on oil than cars and the GS500 is no exception. Not only is the entire crankcase immersed in the stuff the bike (04+ I believe) is also cooled by the oil which may or may not compound the problem of oil loss. Out of every bike I've worked on, had, or a friend has had, the GS500 has had the shortest time-to-change interval on oil knowing full well that my bike doesn't have anything that would scream OIL BURNER happening to it.


Speaking of which...I'm due for another oil change soon...



EDIT:

I'm running Motul 5100 10w40, I might try a heavier oil at the next oil change and see how that affects things.

[SactoPat]

Very true. The GS500 are definitely oil burners.

[mister]

I've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full.

Why the Haynes manual? Why not follow the oil-checking-procedure as written by the people who made the bike (Suzuki)... upright and Cold? It's their creation. Surely they would know best how to check the oil.

Michael

[twocool]

I've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full.

Why the Haynes manual? Why not follow the oil-checking-procedure as written by the people who made the bike (Suzuki)... upright and Cold? It's their creation. Surely they would know best how to check the oil.

Michael

My Suzuki owner manual says check oil with engine warmed up, and then off for a couple minutes for the oil to settle...did earlier manuals give different directions?

Hot oil will read higher than cold oil......if you fill to full when cold, it will read over full when hot...

Does it really matter???   Probably the difference is too little to matter...

Cookie

[mister]

I've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full.

Why the Haynes manual? Why not follow the oil-checking-procedure as written by the people who made the bike (Suzuki)... upright and Cold? It's their creation. Surely they would know best how to check the oil.

Michael

My Suzuki owner manual says check oil with engine warmed up, and then off for a couple minutes for the oil to settle...did earlier manuals give different directions?

Hot oil will read higher than cold oil......if you fill to full when cold, it will read over full when hot...

Does it really matter???   Probably the difference is too little to matter...

Cookie

09 manual.... page 6-10....

===
ENGINE OIL LEVEL CHECK

Check the engine oil level with the engine oil dipstick. The dipstick comes out together with the oil filler cap as shown. The level on the dipstick should be between the "L" (Low) and "F" (Full) lines.

The oil level inspection should be performed under the following conditions:
1. Hold the motorcycle vertically without the center stand.
2. The oil filler cap threads are not run in but touching the filler hole upper edge.

CAUTION
The engine oil level must be between the "L" (Low) line and "F" (Full) line, or engine damage may occur.

Check the oil level with the dipstick, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground before each use of the motorcycle.
===

Michael

[cyall]

I still need to do a compression test, but I've been crazy busy and haven't had time to do much non-urgent stuff.  I think, somehow, that the bike doesn't start burning oil until I keep it at high RPMs for an extended period of time (i.e., freeway rides).  I went on a ride with my dad today, and he rode the GS for awhile.  As I followed him on the freeway, I was certain I was smelling burning oil out of the exhaust, even though I hadn't smelled it while following him down the mountain road...

You've got an amazing sense of smell if you can smell burning oil coming out of your exhaust (way behind you) on the freeway going 70+ MPH. You're probably thinking you smell it because you're looking for it. Have someone follow you. They'll DEFINITELY be able to smell it.

Reread.  His dad was on the GS and he was following.