Ramblings on turning

[Phil B]

Some musings on ease of turning, on my gs500, from a relative newbie.
Maybe it'll help some other new folks as well.
(that being said, comments from old-timers are also invited )


Background: I've only had my gs500 for a few months. However, I've been a bicycle rider for many years, and have had some good deal of 30mph+ experience on that. So I guess I'm probably still riding with some kind of bicycle style, ha.


What works really well for me:
*  when I "just go with it"; less thinking, more all out One-with-the-bike riding.
* feeling like I'm steering with my body, and staying loose and stressfree
* remembering, "look (and face your head!!!) where you want to go.
* "shifting my bum" as we say in the UK but using that to "push" the bike, rather than hanging off.
  (think skii-ing when in the 'V', where you have to steer with hips, instead of knees/legs)


Basically, moving with whole body coordinated works.
My head tells me that SOMETHING is most likely "first". But my sporting instinct tells me, "that's like thinking which muscle in your leg is the first, when running. Just shut up and do it"


What gets in the way of a smooth turn:
* concentrating on "push forward, to turn", often times isnt great, especially over 30mph. What I'm finally realising is that technically, the most impact comes from force completely perpendicular to axis of forks. Which means, given the "rake" of the front fork,  you actually have to push a little UP, for maximum handlebar turn effect
* ye olde staring at the corner  instead of the EXIT of the corner
* stiffening up (i think this results in the left arm fighting what the right arm is doing, sort of thing). Also, stops fork settling into place properly.
* moving piecemeal. ie: attempting to move with "just" arms+handlebars. Or just hips. or just torso. ,etc.

Also, a really bad bad thing, is the bicycle style "quick swerve" technique. Where you roll the bike right and left(and let your hips sway with it), but keep your torso vertical.

Technicaly, that can be "useful" for 5mph parking lot style stuff. But it trains me into bad habits of leaning the wrong way (or just keeping vertical) for normal turns. BadBadBadBad!
So now I'm trying to stick with full "lean with bike" technique even on super-slow turns.

[twocool]

Some musings on ease of turning, on my gs500, from a relative newbie.
Maybe it'll help some other new folks as well.
(that being said, comments from old-timers are also invited )


Background: I've only had my gs500 for a few months. However, I've been a bicycle rider for many years, and have had some good deal of 30mph+ experience on that. So I guess I'm probably still riding with some kind of bicycle style, ha.


What works really well for me:
*  when I "just go with it"; less thinking, more all out One-with-the-bike riding.
* feeling like I'm steering with my body, and staying loose and stressfree
* remembering, "look (and face your head!!!) where you want to go.
* "shifting my bum" as we say in the UK but using that to "push" the bike, rather than hanging off.
  (think skii-ing when in the 'V', where you have to steer with hips, instead of knees/legs)


Basically, moving with whole body coordinated works.
My head tells me that SOMETHING is most likely "first". But my sporting instinct tells me, "that's like thinking which muscle in your leg is the first, when running. Just shut up and do it"


What gets in the way of a smooth turn:
* concentrating on "push forward, to turn", often times isnt great, especially over 30mph. What I'm finally realising is that technically, the most impact comes from force completely perpendicular to axis of forks. Which means, given the "rake" of the front fork,  you actually have to push a little UP, for maximum handlebar turn effect
* ye olde staring at the corner  instead of the EXIT of the corner
* stiffening up (i think this results in the left arm fighting what the right arm is doing, sort of thing)
* moving piecemeal. ie: attempting to move with "just" arms+handlebars. Or just hips. or just torso. ,etc.

Also, a really bad bad thing, is the bicycle style "quick swerve" technique. Where you roll the bike right and left(and let your hips sway with it), but keep your torso vertical.

Technicaly, that can be "useful" for 5mph parking lot style stuff. But it trains me into bad habits of leaning the wrong way (or just keeping vertical) for normal turns. BadBadBadBad!
So now I'm trying to stick with full "lean with bike" technique even on super-slow turns.

I too, am a long itme bicycle racer/rider (40 years)  and relatively new to motorcycles (3-1/2 years).

I found:

Don't "think" about turns...just "do"  just like on a bicycle..
Don't be afraid  to "lean"

What you said above....Look thru the turn........

I teach flying in sailplanes....students want to stare straight ahead in a turn, or they want to stare down at the instrument panel....you cannot make a good turn this way...in airplane or on bike...



I have noticed over the years...for any sport...the following applies....

The eyes look
The head will follow the eyes
the body will follow the head
The machine (bike, airplane etc) will follow the body

So all you have to do is "look" where you want to go (look thru the turn) and all else will naturally follow....if.. you just let it happen and don't think about it too much..

More examples:

Watch an olympic high diver:  for front somersault...head tucks into chest..body follows ...for swan dive head goes up and back...body follows

Watch dirt bike stunt rider...back flip....head goes way back..eyes try to rollup and back...bike follows...

Cookie

[Phil B]

Another thing I just remembered: when you're actually IN the turn, the front wheel wants to settle to pointing into the turn. In which case, countersteering is bad, unless you want to increase lean angle even further.

So that's another reason for "stay loose"... it lets the front end settle into the turn properly, once you've gotten the lean you want.

[Kijona]

Countersteering is quite counter intuitive. It's a hard concept for newbies to grasp and I too had problems understanding it. However, the GS is so easy to handle that you'll eventually find yourself doing it naturally without thinking. You just have to stop thinking about it and "just do it", as the old Nike catchphrase goes.

[mister]

Going real slow - and - leaning into the turn, will see you overbalance at some point. Real slow riding actually requires the opposite. That is, bike leans in while you lean out. Watch this police officer going through a tight series of cones. Note how he is leaning Out while the bike is leaning In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in3_aJbpkA0

This requires a lot of practice to get right. Best done in a parking lot without cones at first, just to get the feel of it.

Michael

[Phil B]

Going real slow - and - leaning into the turn, will see you overbalance at some point. Real slow riding actually requires the opposite. ...

First off, I dont think that the example of the guy with the 1300cc beast, is really a good example for gs500 riding

secondly... it's one way, but not the only way. yes of course there's a practical limit to the slowest speed ... but you can go very slow, and very tight, while still leaning with the bike. You just have to be waaayy more careful about setting up the RIGHT lean, rather than a lean that's too steep.

The canonical prettiest example posted here from time to time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0

Other than the slalom, she is always INTO the turns. slow, tight turns.

[redhawkdancing]

The canonical prettiest example posted here from time to time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0

Other than the slalom, she is always INTO the turns. slow, tight turns.

The bigger contact patch on the rear tire and the pizza pan rear sprocket have a lot to do with that. I'd pay to money to see her do that with a GS500 stock.   

[Phil B]

The canonical prettiest example posted here from time to time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0

Other than the slalom, she is always INTO the turns. slow, tight turns.

The bigger contact patch on the rear tire and the pizza pan rear sprocket have a lot to do with that. I'd pay to money to see her do that with a GS500 stock.   

Errr... what does the rear sprocket have to do with that?

I'll also have to disagree with the "size of contact patch" comment, but accept a "the tyre is designed to be used at extreme angles" argument, on that score

for the record, I have speed demons on, rather than stock, so I'm almost tempted to see what I can do in a parking lot... but not TOO tempted, without more anti-smoosh gear

Also for the record... I vaguely recall i was doing some gymkhana-esque moves in the MSF basic course, on a... erm.. nighthawk 150, was it?
Doing my figure-8 box turn thingie, with full lean-in


And these "good ol boys" are having fun :
http://bamarides.com/ride/events/motorcycle-gymkhana-in-alabama-the-first-meeting/msg109813/?PHPSESSID=17abb856210fba5c80c98e7d6c7c001e#msg109813

would be fun to see if a buncha guys near me in the LA area wanted to get together in a parking lot somewheres and try this stuff out!


oh hay here's a better gs500 rider doing a teenie bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwRbxCyaog

[mister]

Phil, see the last vid you posted. See how he is leaning out? That's how you do slow tight turns.

The CBR is not doing much of anything slow - and - the riders has practiced that very thing LOADS of times. You ain't gonna be doing a Uturn on the street like that.

Try it for yourself. Do your Lean in and then do it Lean out - same slow speed. Lean out is more stable end of story for slow stuff.

Michael

[Twisted]

What I have found is that a bike knows how to turn. You place it in the corner and it will do its thing. The more you try and help with your own input the worse it becomes. 

[Phil B]

Phil, see the last vid you posted. See how he is leaning out? That's how you do slow tight turns.

The CBR is not doing much of anything slow - and - the riders has practiced that very thing LOADS of times. You ain't gonna be doing a Uturn on the street like that.

Try it for yourself. Do your Lean in and then do it Lean out - same slow speed. Lean out is more stable end of story for slow stuff.

Michael

Whuups, he is. I was watching badly, in that I was looking for his body to be visibly on the opposite side of the bike. His body is still on "the turn side", but his torso is indeed leaning "out", if you compare torso angle to bike angle.

Also, I do not disagree about the lean out for slow turns being easier.  It allows you more counter-weight, to be able to flip the bike back easier, if you mess up and lean it too far.

That being said.. my post didnt say anything about easier.  I was talking about better.

motorcycle skill is a learned/trained skill. slow turns are "difficult".
If you train yourself to lean out on "difficult" turns... that's what youre going to be doing as a normal reaction to difficult turns.
Which will then get triggered in a HIGH speed "difficult turn" sooner or later. Which is going to make you very much worse off.

So, better to train yourself properly on the "difficult but safe" slow turns, and then difficult faster turns will come more naturally, and safer.

high-sides are going to be more probable for someone who leans "out" as well. G-force, etc. pushes you into the bike, rather than over the side.
It's more difficult, but safer, to always lean with the bike no matter what.


PS Edit:

You ain't gonna be doing a Uturn on the street like that

Yeah, I am   Going up my small multi-level parking lot at work, too. Used to lean out, but then I found myself leaning out on regular turns. So I stopped

[mister]

leaning out slow will cause you to lean out fast and end in disaster? NO it won't.

When you ride slow you have directional steering - point the wheel where you want to go.
When you ride fast you have counter steering - point the wheel slightly opposite of where you want to go.

This is just the inherent nature of ALL two wheel vehicles. You do not see people making mistakes with this when they are riding. That's because our brains make the adjustment for us since we learned to ride as children.

Likewise, leaning your torso out in a slow turn will not make you lean it out in a fast turn. Because you will have taught your body not to. Cause you have to make a conscious choice to lean out when slow riding, until it becomes 2nd nature.

Michael

[Phil B]

leaning out slow will cause you to lean out fast and end in disaster? NO it won't.

When you ride slow you have directional steering - point the wheel where you want to go.
When you ride fast you have counter steering - point the wheel slightly opposite of where you want to go.

when you ride fast, you need to counter-steer, AND lean with it.

Look at it this way:
"hanging off" in a turn at speed, gets a tighter turn than if you are just laying on the bike. Similarly, leaning the OTHER way, ends up giving you a wider turn, than if you were just laying on the bike.

This is just the inherent nature of ALL two wheel vehicles. You do not see people making mistakes with this when they are riding.

Actually, I've seen multiple people mentioning that they have had problems doing good turns (maximally efficient, that is) at speed, and one of the reasons, is leaning the wrong way.
I think it even gets mention in one of the "twist of the wrist" books.

Likewise, leaning your torso out in a slow turn will not make you lean it out in a fast turn. Because you will have taught your body not to. Cause you have to make a conscious choice to lean out when slow riding, until it becomes 2nd nature.

Ah, that's exactly the point I'm making. When it becomes "2nd nature" to lean out in certain types of turns, it becomes far more likely to do it in other turns sometimes as well.
This becomes even more of a problem for freeway commuters, who on a day to day basis, may do more slow-speed turns, than higher speed ones.

[Twisted]

For your slower (tighter where it is to slow to counter steer) turns and U turns you can use the rear brake to help you around. As you go through the turn while keeping a little throttle on apply the rear brake gently till you feel it and trail it through the turn.

[mister]

Likewise, leaning your torso out in a slow turn will not make you lean it out in a fast turn. Because you will have taught your body not to. Cause you have to make a conscious choice to lean out when slow riding, until it becomes 2nd nature.

Ah, that's exactly the point I'm making. When it becomes "2nd nature" to lean out in certain types of turns, it becomes far more likely to do it in other turns sometimes as well.
This becomes even more of a problem for freeway commuters, who on a day to day basis, may do more slow-speed turns, than higher speed ones.

If you learn to lean out in slow turns it does NOT become More Likely to happen in fast turns. Your body knows the difference. If you disagree go tell all motorcycle cops they are doing it wrong. Go tell Jerry "Motorman" Palladino who instructs police on riding, that he is doing it wrong (here's his website, email him and tell him his advice is dangerous http://www.ridelikeapro.com). These Professional Riders learn lean-in-fast and lean-out-slow because that's the most efficient way to control the motorcycle end of story.

Leaning in or out in a turn does not make you do the turn sharper or wider - but - is does effect the lean angle of the bike.

If you lean in - hang off the seat even - the bike will be more upright.
If you are in line with the bike, the bike will need to lean more (than hanging off) to negotiate the same turn at the same speed.
If you lean against the bike's lean, the bike will need to lean even more (than being in line) to negotiate the turn.

Depending on your speed, you might not be able to make the corner cause you cannot get enough lean to counteract your body's position.

Michael

[SAFE-T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in3_aJbpkA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0


These two riders are going different speeds, through entirely different obstacle courses. The 1st is at speeds under 10km/h in a very restrictive circuit on a heavier bike, whereas the 2nd is at 20-30km/h in a more open circuit on a lighter bike.

From someone who spent 15 yrs. doing this kind of stuff these are two very different things, but you could probably ride a GS500 with good sticky tires close to the limit of the CBR600RR in the 2nd video on that circuit, and would have to ride it like the police bike in the 1st video on that circuit.

The only reason I say 'probably' regarding the GS500 is that I actually barrel-rolled a CBR125 during a similar event back in 1999 while push-steering it with extreme prejudice in an effort to win.

Which I would have if I had not wound up on my head 

[Phil B]

Leaning in or out in a turn does not make you do the turn sharper or wider - but - is does effect the lean angle of the bike.

If you lean in - hang off the seat even - the bike will be more upright.

You are writing with an unstated assumption in there, which invalidates your message above. Rather than quibble about the details, I'll point out that, ironically, your later sentences agree with what I said:

If you are in line with the bike, the bike will need to lean more (than hanging off) to negotiate the same turn at the same speed.
If you lean against the bike's lean, the bike will need to lean even more (than being in line) to negotiate the turn.

Depending on your speed, you might not be able to make the corner cause you cannot get enough lean to counteract your body's position.

Michael

And this is what I'm talking about. Someone's brain may correctly and non-verbally work out, "okay, I need lean angle 'X' " to get around this turn, at this speed."  and what they calculate, will.. just barely... get them through. 
They initially set that up all right, but then they unconciously lean their body against the bike's lean. Which means, they would now need more bike lean than "angle X", due to their body lean.

The absolute worse result of this, is an OH @#$@#! moment, when a "just barely" corner becomes a "well I almost made it" corner and then end up scraping because they didnt readjust in time.

The second worse, is when they realize "hey waitaminit, I'm not turning as much as I thought I was going to!", and go into panic mode.
Panic mode reactions default to what you have most commonly, successfully done to survive a similar situation. For many people, that will be a "parking structure" type panic maneouver. Where they attempt to push the bike over more, but at the same time, still counter-lean their body to keep it upright.

At parkinglot speeds (5-10mph) this is "good", in that you will probably make it, and in worse case, you will just "drop" your bike.
Unfortunately, at 30mph and up, this will not work well, for actual turns. (for a quickie minor "swerve", okay, but not if a "real" turn is required). 
The rider may push the bike over hard, but may end up pushing their body away from the turn at the same time.(note below).
They have now just largely counter-acted the extra lean angle of the bike.
Without further adjustments, the rider will not be able to tighten the turn radius sufficiently, and will most likely hit something on the outer edge of the turn, unless they lean *into*, not away from, the turn.

(note)
Physics details, for those who care:
This is a physics action/reaction problem. Picture two people standing completely vertical, in the middle of the road, but side-by-side.
Suddenly, there is an oncoming car. Person on the right, tries to "save" person on the left, by shoving them, HARD, to the left.
Great, person on left is saved. Meanwhile, force of the push, will send person on the right, more to the right.

If a rider has their bike leaned to the "left" side of the center of balance, while having their body to the "right" side, and they need more left turn... a simple push "left" on the bike, will also send their body "right".

In contrast, if their body is already on the "left" of the balance point, on a left turn, then both bike AND body will tend to go further left, if you try for more turn. This is good.


As you have pointed out, mister, yes, this is technically a more "unstable" position than counter-leaning.
Funny thing: they design fighter aeroplanes these days, to deliberately have a certain amount of "unstability", for the same reasons: so that they turn faster and tighter.

On a bike, this requires a more skilled rider to do it. (hey, theres the "sport" in "sport bikes" )
On a fighter plane, they just throw more electronics at it

[Phil B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in3_aJbpkA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9twUAi1Q4o0


These two riders are going different speeds, through entirely different obstacle courses. The 1st is at speeds under 10km/h in a very restrictive circuit on a heavier bike, whereas the 2nd is at 20-30km/h in a more open circuit on a lighter bike.

From someone who spent 15 yrs. doing this kind of stuff these are two very different things, but you could probably ride a GS500 with good sticky tires close to the limit of the CBR600RR in the 2nd video on that circuit, and would have to ride it like the police bike in the 1st video on that circuit.

(Funnily enough, the 2nd video you posted, is the first video I posted )

I agree with you with your comments on the first course, not because of any "you cant do corners at slow speeds and lean in" claim, but because that course is basically an exaggerated swerve course. Having a vertical body position lets you flick the bike over faster from one turn direction, to the other turn.
In real world conditions, where you dont have back-to-back opposing turns... or at least have more than 10 feet between them the better thing to do is to consistenly train muscle memory by always leaning with the bike.

[SAFE-T]

Not because it's not useful, but because there is no urgent need to ride like that on a daily basis, the technique shown on the police bike is not something most riders ever need to worry about.

[SAFE-T]

I can lean as far off the bike as possible in the opposite direction the bike is leaning and either go straight or turn depending on what I let the handlebars do. The bike's natural tendency when leaned in one direction is to turn in that direction, unless you force the handlebars to remain pointed straight ahead, wherein the bike will continue to go straight.