Scenarios + Riding Strategies

[Twisted]

Hey Ourea. Is there a web site this is posted on? I did the Q-ride course in QLD (obviously) and was wondering if they had the statistics there as well.

[SAFE-T]

I taught motorcycle courses with the Canada Safety Council in Edmonton, AB from 1989-2004. In the "last couple years" it was less enjoyable as I began to think some material and decisions were being presented based on what had always been done, without much apparent thought as to why.

This is mostly the issue I have with what you have chosen to repeat from your material ~ situations that really don't seem to represent reality in a reasonable manner ~ for instance, why exactly should I expect an accumulation of engine fluids of any sort at the top of a hill going around a corner on the open road ? I don't see any reason to expect to see that in that particular location as opposed to any other location on an open road. Should I be worried now about every corner on every hill I ever ride on ? Hills and curves are the only reasons I continue to own a motorcycle, but if every one were to present a hazard like you describe, it would take all the enjoyment out of it. My point being that the scenario presented is not representative of a hazard that you are likely to encounter more than once or twice in an entire lifetime of riding and therefore it needs to be addressed as such, rather than presented as something to be expected in the everyday course of events.

[xunedeinx]

I taught motorcycle courses with the Canada Safety Council in Edmonton, AB from 1989-2004. In the "last couple years" it was less enjoyable as I began to think some material and decisions were being presented based on what had always been done, without much apparent thought as to why.

This is mostly the issue I have with what you have chosen to repeat from your material ~ situations that really don't seem to represent reality in a reasonable manner ~ for instance, why exactly should I expect an accumulation of engine fluids of any sort at the top of a hill going around a corner on the open road ? I don't see any reason to expect to see that in that particular location as opposed to any other location on an open road. Should I be worried now about every corner on every hill I ever ride on ? Hills and curves are the only reasons I continue to own a motorcycle, but I'd every one were to present a hazard like you describe, it would take all the enjoyment out of it. My point being that the scenario presented is not representative of a hazard that you are likely to encounter more than once or twice in an entire lifetime of riding and therefore it needs to be addressed as such, rather thab presented as something to be expected in the everyday course of events.

Editing...

Maybe, but the other day on durant road right here theres two turns, and going east, its kind of a blind corner, has trees blocking the end of the apex of the turn
http://maps.google.com/maps/myplaces?hl=en&ll=27.906584,-82.173314&spn=0.016554,0.033023&gl=us&ctz=300&t=m&z=16&source=gplus-ogsb

Where the posted is 35, but it is perfectly safe at 60+, I was going along at a good clip (probably around 65)....and going into the second turn, theres a huge pile of cow shaZam! in the middle of the road. I leaned my ass off the seat, got the bike closer to the inside of the turn (in the opposing lane) and risked a slippery, stinky death.

While it's not likely, it is possible.

[SAFE-T]

You do double posted around a blind corner ?

[xunedeinx]

You do double posted around a blind corner ?

Only the end half is blind, and if you know the area, you know there is NOTHING there.

But yea, I did.

A car can take it at 50 without much fuss, also.

Did it in the focus.

[SAFE-T]

So you are saying you knew the cow poop was there but still went in at 60+ ?

[Ourea]

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[Ourea]

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[SAFE-T]

I am making relevant points about some questionable content regarding an area I have considerable experience in.

So far, no one has been able to tell me why oil collects at the top of a hill on a corner on a highway, and one person has told me they were going 30 over the posted speed limit around a corner with poor visibility when they almost biffed it because the same road that normally has nothing on it did.

Statistically, it is entirely possible that if this same person had crashed going 65 in a 35 zone, it would have been reported as loss of control due to excessive speed.

[SAFE-T]

So you are saying you knew the cow poop was there but still went in at 60 ?

So you're not only pestering me but other members now, please stay out of this thread unless you have something constructive to say.

I am sorry that you feel picked on. Your original post was pretty good, but had a couple of things I took issue with and decided to challenge you on.  No one has made any negative remarks against anyone's character, so let's keep it that way.

Having said that, I am not here to score points with anyone in particular so if I have offended you I guess that is what it is.

Constructive criticism is exactly that ~ criticism that asks you to examine what you are talking about and whether it really makes sense. I think you are repeating material that perhaps you don't understand enough to see it's deficiencies.

I participate in forums and respond to items where I believe what I have to say has relevance. Not everybody likes everything I have to say, but again I am here to make points, not score points.

With this in mind, let's look a little deeper into one of the areas of proper vehicle operation that you are advising people on:

   
OVERTAKING
You are riding down a single lane highway, the vehicle in front of you is travelling just below the speed limit and you make the decision to overtake. A short distance ahead is a T-intersection. To the right on approach to this intersection a vehicle turns left into your lane from the intersection - you are now in a collision path with this vehicle and a crash is imminent.

Where did it go wrong?
It is important that you have good clear vision through intersections. On approaching where vision is restricted it is advisable to hang back before overtaking. When a driver is turning left into a street they are more likely to be looking to their right as they turn. If you are travelling on the wrong side of the road at the approach to the intersection, a crash may be difficult to avoid.

In 2007 I had a driver look right at me while waiting at a stop sign on a cross street on the highway. It was a clear and sunny day, with light traffic. About 2pm, so sun high in the south. I was approaching eastward. Driving in the right hand lane just under the posted speed limit of 110 km/h. No one behind me or beside me for a good distance. Saw other driver pull up to stop sign and come to a full stop, check both ways for traffic and remain stopped.

Then he suddenly drove across the road when I was about 40 metres from him.

Ironically, I had been thinking just prior to this particular incident how much I liked my 2004 Ford F-150 and how I hoped to keep it for a couple more years, and how ironic it would be if the driver of the blue Toyota Tacoma that just stopped waiting to cross the road were to suddenly pull across my path. Because I knew there was no one behind me or beside me, I managed to slow down somewhat and change lanes before I tagged him on the front quarter panel. I was just grateful I didn't hit him full broadside and kill him, because I distinctly remember thinking "I wonder if this is going to kill this guy?" just before we collided. I Let go of the steering wheel and stopped pressed the foot pedals just before impact so I wouldn't break wrist/ankle/arm/leg and let the airbag stop me.

Wrote his truck and mine off. I had some pretty sore ribs from the seat belt. Other driver was charged with failing to enter a roadway in safety.

Firstly, my point is ~ and I am saying this now with as much respect as I can muster ~ it is not a good idea to imply it is or was ever a good idea to accelerate towards an area of potential cross-traffic just because you can see what's up ahead.

Secondly, and more accurately, the person you describe will look both ways then start to go as they look in the direction they want to go again. The problem is not that they fail to look ~ because they look twice ~ but that they start to enter the roadway before they finish checking. This was actually featured in an excellent motorcycle traffic safety video/commercial in the UK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSU-lCFumZw

Thirdly, there seems to be some information missing or witheld regarding the whole scenario of the driver turning left at the intersection into your lane.

Keeping in mind that Australians drive on the other side of the road, the root of the problem may be that the left-turning car may not see you if you are following too close behind as you approach the T-intersection. I can only infer this was the case, because this is normally what people do with a slower moving vehicle on a roadway where passing is difficult ~ they tailgate. The OP was not clear regarding this important issue of following distance as it affects visibility so we can only guess if this was a contributing factor or not. 

In North America, where we drive on the other side of the road, the inference is the left-turning driver either didn't see you or thought they could suddenly make a left turn across the path of the oncoming car you were attempting to pass. So either they made a huge mistake and took a huge unecessary risk, or the rider actually helped to obscure themselves from the driver of the left-turning car by being on the opposite side of the oncoming car.

In retrospect I don't think there is very much I could have done that would have changed the outcome of my own incident in 2007. I suppose I might have taken my foot off the gas a little more, but I was already going about 10 km/h under the posted limit. If I had slowed considerably, the other driver may have taken this as evidence I was preparing to slow for a turn, clearing the way for him to cross the highway. I suppose I might have changed lanes to have tried to give myself more space, but I would also have had to drive closer to the speed limit, which would have increased my closing speed. Even after I changed lanes he still might have pulled across in front of me ~ there was a large ditch through the median on the left which I would not have wanted to drive into at highway speed while attempting to brake and steer in an effort to avoid a collision ~ I had more protection up front from the driver's airbag, and no side protection in the event of a rollover. 

I hit the binders hard enough to steer and slow without losing control on a manual shift vehicle with only rear anti-lock brakes, evidenced by the nice set of light rubber tire marks that traversed the highway up until about 3 metres from the point of impact. 

Overall, I think I was well prepared and made the right choices, along with a little bit of luck, which is always helpful.

[xunedeinx]

Sorry, but im offended, and I can stick up for myself.

Its normally a very clear and safe road, even the last 1/2 you cant see.

It isnt in cross traffic, theres almost never any traffic.

No, there was not previously cow poop there, hence the quasi-comical nature i found in it.

Yea, I did over the speed limit.

Yea, I could have become a statistic.

Yea, if you want you can put me in your study or w/e your trying to accomplish.

Corners uphill in an apex collect oil because in america, corners are curved, and when it rains, it carrys oil downhill, some of it goes down the hill, some collects at the apex. Theres your answer, perfectly explainable by gravity and mother nature.

[xunedeinx]

I am sorry that you feel picked on.

In 2008 I had a driver look right at me while waiting at a stop sign on a cross street on the highway. Brilliant sunny day, light traffic. Driving in the right hand lane just under the posted speed limit of 100 km/h. No one behind me or beside me for a good distance. Pulled right across the road in front of me. Managed to slow down somewhat and change lanes before I tagged him on the front quarter panel, but at least I didn't hit him full broadside and kill him. Let go of the steering wheel and stopped pressed the foot pedals just before impact so I wouldn't break wrist/ankle/arm/leg and let the airbag stop me. Wrote his truck and mine off.

I am saying that it is not a good idea to imply that it was ever a good idea to accelerate towards an area of potential cross-traffic as long as you could see far enough ahead.

Did someone really teach you that ?

Constructive criticism is exactly that ~ criticism that asks you to examine what you are talking about and whether it really makes sense.

Welcome to Tampa, or presumably any part of florida, where someone will acknowledge you, motion you to go, than proceed to try to run you over as if they didn't know your there.

read Marys thread about accident avoidance, its why I dress in all black, and TRY  to be invisible. If their not going to see me anyway, im going to act, and know, that I am invisible and hard to see. Sense doing that, I have had far less close calls.

maybe in Europe high-visibility works, but all it does here is piss people off, or make you a target, or have no effect. Unlike europe, in America most of the public sees bikers as a nuisance and idiots for doing it in the first place, even more-so for sportbikes.

[SAFE-T]

Corners uphill in an apex collect oil because in America corners are curved. When it rains, it carries oil downhill. Some of it goes down the hill and some collects at the apex. There's your answer, perfectly explainable by gravity and mother nature.

Then why doesn't it collect at the low point of every dip or hill on the road ? It should be even worse where there is a combination of high traffic, curved roads and elevation changes then ~ the Tail of the Dragon should be covered in it.

Seriously, oil slicks on the highway ? The only place you can reasonably expect to find oil on a regular, non-random basis is at an intersection in an urban area.

I might also argue that centrifugal force would cause any fluid lost from a vehicle in the process of making a turn would necessarily accumulate more towards the outside of the turn than the apex. So now we have the outside of the turn, the middle of the turn, and the apex all covered in oil. Which we know is not the case at all. There is no significant regular accumulation of oil on a highway. Obviously there will be occasional places where oil has been spilled at random. And if someone can tell me how to predict this, please do so. Or maybe write a book about the stock market. 

The highway between Edmonton and Calgary has enough traffic at night that you can actually see a line of light spanning the 358 km across the province ~ if there was going to be a dangerous accumulation of motor fluids on a road it would be this one. I have yet to see or hear anyone trumpeting the dangers of losing control on the QE2 because of oil on the road, despite having traveled this roadway for 45 yrs. and having in excess of 10,000 hrs. experience in driver training.

[SAFE-T]

Sorry, but im offended, and I can stick up for myself.

Its normally a very clear and safe road, even the last 1/2 you cant see.

In retrospect, wouldn't it have been better to have been going slower in the first place ? I understand going slower is less fun, but I am making a point about safe riding, not examining whether elevating risk is it's own reward.

[Phil B]

maybe in Europe high-visibility works, but all it does here is piss people off, or make you a target, or have no effect.

Unless you have specific statistics to back this up, I'm interpreting this as more of you transfering a "YOU dont like it" feeling, into an "everyone doesnt like it" assumption.  One that is incorrect.

[SAFE-T]

I still want to know which well known brand of car is more likely to rear-end me when I stop so I can watch for them on Saturday nights.

[SAFE-T]

Although the rear-end collision is the most commonly reported traffic collision for cars, I was surprised to read material on a well-known traffic safety research website that it was not the most common type of accident for motorcyclists.

[xunedeinx]

maybe in Europe high-visibility works, but all it does here is piss people off, or make you a target, or have no effect.

Unless you have specific statistics to back this up, I'm interpreting this as more of you transfering a "YOU dont like it" feeling, into an "everyone doesnt like it" assumption.  One that is incorrect.

Where I live in Florida, and You can ask toogoofy, there's reports everyday of people, ON PURPOSE, trying to run bikes off the roads/interstates.

Numbers are numbers, reality is different, ask anyone who actually lives and rides here how it really is, and you'll get similar responses.

[SAFE-T]

Going to edit "Thirdly" comment about intersection, but thumb typing on phone right now.

I was thinking about North American roads where you would pass on the left.

[xunedeinx]

Going to edit "Thirdly" comment about intersection, but thumb typing on phone right now.

I was thinking about North American roads where you would pass on the left.

Keeping in mind that Australians drive on the other side of the road, the left-turning car may not see you if you are following too close behind as you approach the T-intersection.

You guys also pee standing on your head, and ride bikes upside down.

What does oz safety have to do with ours?

If your water drains backwards, maybe the oil in your apex is the oil in our storm drains?