2nd amendment and well, why was it written

[yamahonkawazuki]

for a gun ban to work there would have to be a search of every single home and property in hte US. i bought 30 extended mags, when clinton banned them. since grandfathered in, they brought a premium.  but guns can be hidden. ive got a cave on the property i could hide them in.

[The Buddha]

Guns are irrelevant, bullets are the choke point. Bullets have a shelf life, as that shelf life runs so do bullets. 100 year fix IMHO.
Here is the issue other than that element of surprise I refered to earlier.
Law abiding citizens should have guns, and can have all the guns and ammo they want.
A law abiding citizen would never think of going to a movie with enough artillery to make the movie look like a walk in the park. Criminals will. If you can ever tip that balance with legislation, let me know.
Choking off bullets and the chemicals to make gunpowder etc will just make bullets very very $.

Lets see how many gun rampages happen when you have to put in your ID and pay $30 for each bullet, which you need to buy 1 at a time and 1 per day, cos it is made by a machinist by hand. Puts those sparkplugs of adidas to shame huh.
In 1890 if we had done it, we wont have had any of these shoot em up sprees today. We do it today and in 2112 we wont have these sprees. Right now if we were to legislate bullets so they cost 10X as much, these sprees will get a lot less bloody in a few months. Its a lot less "empowering" to blow away 50 random, unarmed, clueless and defenseless people when that could cost you 5 grand and the fact that you have put in your name and ID in that "purchasing system" before you even tried to walk into the theater. Heck I'd make it so each subsequent bullet purchase will cost more, unless you turned in the spent shell casings. Something like that. Sorta comparing the fence on the border vs an electronic verification system for illegal immigrants.

Cool.
Buddha.

[Huff1371]

Except someone willing to rampage out doesn't care about cost. So the only ones you hurt are those who like to shoot often and legally. As far as a shelf life on ammo, store properly it last a very very long time. You might be right about the 100 year timeline.  In which time the political landscape would change because everyone would want bans and laws lifted so they could legally dedend themselves from the criminals shooting smuggled bullets at them.

[The Buddha]

Numbers sir Huff, numbers. If you turn in shell casings, cheaper, so the ones that shoot for fun will not be affected that much. Remember this is an idea in progress. 100 years yes, but if in 3 months bullets cost 10 bones a piece, I can see that 100 year number get close enough to it in 1yr. Then those that have a stockpile will be tempted to hoard and sell them instead of shoot em.

People who have 5g or equivalent sitting around dont quite feel the need to throw it all away killing random bystanders. True they want to kill one particular person, their ex's lawyer, the cop who gave them a 300 buck ticket for parking in the handicapped spot etc, not random people.

People will go nuts and want to kill other people, they will do it, only thing we can do is slow down the rate @ which the bodies pile up. Also the drive should send people toward rifles and large guns, not small and easily concealed ones. A rifle is good defense against intruders (not motorcycles but people) and good to shoot deer etc, but not that useful as a random bystander mass killing spree. So use bullets 1 at a time, keep and return shell casings and be documented as you buy and turn in these etc.
Cool.
Buddha.

[Phil B]

...
Oh yea once we clean the streets of the guns,

that right there is the problem.
It will happen as #4 in "the list".
#1, 2, and 3 being:
1. that "world peace" thing
2. end hunger
3. get rid of all drugs and alchohol

I guess if there was metal detectors everywhere,

If it was impossible to effectively hide metal guns any more... then the criminals would then just have sufficient incentive to start making guns out of plastic/ceramic/kevlar, etc.

Right now, it should be doable, but has insufficient "return on investment". ie: $$$$$
Part of the cost being that the government has apparently banned non-metalic gun production.
but if they ban ALL public gun production... This would be the obvious next step to happen.
If the manufacturing shop is illegal anyway, may as well go all out on it.

[Huff1371]

So how would a grad student purchase an AR-15 a 12gauge and a pistol? Not to mention all the ammo. Even if all we had were bolt action rifles you just run into sniper rampages ala D.C. sniper a few years back. It would be much more simple to fire off a few rounds of .270 from 500yds a get away,  only to have another go later. All the while the community is freaking out. Guns and ammo are very expensive as it is and it doesn't stop anyone.

[Phil B]

Even if all we had were bolt action rifles you just run into sniper rampages ala D.C. sniper a few years back. It would be much more simple to fire off a few rounds of .270 from 500yds a get away,  only to have another go later. All the while the community is freaking out.

This is just another indication that these bloodbath shooters are just stupid, and deranged.
They want to do the whole close-up gore and ick, and get covered in it, so to speak

If they were interested in just invoking low-level fear in the general populace, over a long amount of time,  they would act like actual snipers do, who want to "terrorize" a target area, as you say:

do nasty things from a distance, then quietly walk away scott-free... to do it another time.
again, and again, and again.


But they seem to want "short, limited count, extreme" fear, rather than a wider area of effect.


it's kinda surprising that the actual terrorist organizations havent done this.
but I guess they suck at training marksmen.  Thank goodness.

Or maybe their recruitment techniques dont play well in their target audience.... who WANT to die, rather than walk away and do it again/   

[Juan1]

I'm guessing none of us are scholars on the subject, but if the intent was to arm the people against an equally well armed government, shouldn't we be allowed to own tanks, missiles and bombs? A city filled with people carrying guns can't stop a few 1500 pound bombs.

Practically speaking, I have no problem with a city overflowing with gun violence choosing to outlaw guns. Conversely, I have no problem with a city with low gun-crime rates choosing to be very pro-gun.

[Phil B]

Practically speaking, I have no problem with a city overflowing with gun violence choosing to outlaw guns.

It. Doesnt. Work.

Washington D.C. has very strict anti-gun laws.
It also has a horrendously high rate of gun related crime.
even after over *30 years* of a gun ban.

Here's a source to back up that claim. from none other than... the washington post, you will note.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/12/AR2007111201818.html

[Kijona]

Gun laws only make it harder for law abiding citizens to own them. That is the bottom line.

The kind of people that commit crimes with guns are...you guessed it! Law breakers. Make all the laws you want, try to control guns all you want, it's ONLY going to make it harder for people who WANT to go through the proper channels to own them.

Again, I'll say that laws only work on people who wish to obey them. Laws don't stop law breakers.

[mister]

Gun laws only make it harder for law abiding citizens to own them. That is the bottom line.

The kind of people that commit crimes with guns are...you guessed it! Law breakers. Make all the laws you want, try to control guns all you want, it's ONLY going to make it harder for people who WANT to go through the proper channels to own them.

Again, I'll say that laws only work on people who wish to obey them. Laws don't stop law breakers.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^

As mentioned.... England has a handgun ban. Check out their stats.... marked increase in handgun crime since the ban went in.

Most... I don't know, 99.98735%.... of confiscated guns from crimes in Australia have no record of being sold in this country. Which means, they msyeriously entered the country and ended up in the hands of the criminals. Maybe those crims didn't get the memo they are't allowed to own guns without a license and without registering that gun with the police.

Michael

[The Buddha]

Guys you're talking about what I call see-saw laws. I am not talking about 1 guy getting killed, 1 at a time. I can do that with a baseball bat and element of surprise. A squeeze law will take 30-100 years.

So a sniper did it with a gun and a bigger element of surprise. Big Ficking deal. 1 at a time, not 50. Sure swap that rifle for a ak-47 and it could have been 50 per incident.

You cant stop it in 1 year, or even 4. Heck if you preferred you might as well go all the way the other way. Have zones where you need to be carrying. Heck make it so that the streets are carry zones.

A plastic gun, lovely, when you have guns that can fire off 100 rds a sec and not melt and run, be made of plastic, I'd love to get my hands on some, I think I need to make engine cases and other stuff. And, my plastic containers full of food show up just fine @ airport scanners. What next, guns out of air ?

You guys are all scraping round the edges. We want law abiding people to own guns. My idea is just to document that process. Use up bullets and show it as such and you get bullets cheap. 1 at a time, use up a clip shooting @ the range, well, just pick up the casings. Rifles and revolvers anyway have casings in the chambers. Law abiding citizens get bullets cheap. Criminals dont. Simple.

Dont just say no no no, if you see a problem say what is the problem and how to solve it. No one is going to listen to us and do squat, so I guess fire away (he he no pun intended).

Cool.
Buddha.

[robtech]

here's the thing...lots of you are making valid points...heres mine...no guns wont do much about tanks...no we cant buy tanks...but dont think for a second that if it came down to a revolution for our freedom from a tyrannical govt (which is what the 2nd is about, remember they just had to do that to gain OUR freedom) 1/2 the military would defect to the cause of freedom and bring their tanks with them.  however i do agree it was entirely easier in 1776 with their oppressors on the other side of the atlantic with nothing but wind power to get here/there.  but if the need arose it could still be done

[mister]

Buddha,

You want to Squeezer the forced change over 100 years? In that time you could also change the culture so that people would still have guns but would have greater respect for them etc.

Michael

[The Buddha]

Robtech - If 1/2 the military will breakaway and bring their weapons with them, then we're even with the govt, so we dont need weapons now. BTW we still wont be even, nuclear weapons are under the presidents thumb via launch codes.

Mister - culture change will occur over 100 years, yes, except it is likely to get worse ... think its bad with 8 billion on the planet, try 10 billion or 12 billion. We cant legislate it and we cant get a useful change now. Pushing the small arms ammo out of circulation will right now turn ammo into $$$. A guy with a few cases of it can sell it and get by a few months instead of shooting up a theater.

I want to move towards big guns. Rifles and the like. Rifles also need you to have discipline and training etc etc. Heck carry those buggers strapped to your back. More useful than a little gun in your pocket. Shooter loaded up with 5K in bullets walks into a theater, where waiting in line he sees every man woman and ... well child older than 18 carrying a rifle. Heck mandate training etc etc and a license like a car.

Cool.
Buddha.

[yamahonkawazuki]

So how would a grad student purchase an AR-15 a 12gauge and a pistol? Not to mention all the ammo. Even if all we had were bolt action rifles you just run into sniper rampages ala D.C. sniper a few years back. It would be much more simple to fire off a few rounds of .270 from 500yds a get away,  only to have another go later. All the while the community is freaking out. Guns and ammo are very expensive as it is and it doesn't stop anyone.

afaik this grad student had or was on a govt research grant. hard to get, btu very LOOSELY controlled once obtained. got to go thru hell and high water, to get said grant. once obtained yoyu could disappear for the msot part. and jsut submit a piece of paper once ona while

[The Buddha]

One more "see what a big man I am with these guns blowing away unarmed people".
Seriously guys, I dont see an end to this.
The reason these things dont happen @ a police station. Its those metal detectors in the front lobby, no one can get in with a gun.

Cool.
Srinath.

[Phil B]

The reason these things dont happen @ a police station. Its those metal detectors in the front lobby, no one can get in with a gun.

Dont be silly. It's not the metal detector that stops them. It's the armed police officers STANDING NEXT TO the metal detectors.

They dont try it because people are armed and waiting for them.

Any place that has a serious concern about weapons based violence, never just puts "a metal detector" there.
They put a metal detector *with an armed guard* there.

[dam]

It is pointless to blame an object for the act of an individual.

[Huff1371]

It is pointless to blame an object for the act of an individual.

+1000