2nd amendment and well, why was it written

[Phil B]

Core charge for bullets, $10 per. That will make old bullets worth a lot of $$$ and we will see a big drop in people wanting to dump 1500 bucks into random crowds.

People who do this, usually know they're going to end up dead at the end.
As such, they really dont care bout the cost of bullets. It could be $1500, $3000, or $10000.
Wont make a difference.

[dam]

Dam: Numbers man, numbers. Yes bottle into a crowd can hurt ... except its hurt vs kill, and its a few people instead of dozen and up.

Cool.
Buddha.

You're the one stating small numbers from anything other than bullets and saying that a few people would only be hurt not killed. A cloud of toxic fumes could easily kill a large number of people in a very short time. I'm just trying to point out that bullets and guns aren't a requirement.

[mister]

Dam: Numbers man, numbers. Yes bottle into a crowd can hurt ... except its hurt vs kill, and its a few people instead of dozen and up.

Cool.
Buddha.

You're the one stating small numbers from anything other than bullets and saying that a few people would only be hurt not killed. A cloud of toxic fumes could easily kill a large number of people in a very short time. I'm just trying to point out that bullets and guns aren't a requirement.

Yup. A walk into any supermarket will see you with enough ingredients to create something On The Spot that could kill many people.

What did this guy in the theater have, like $20k worth of gear? Martyn B down in Oz used some of the most expensive firearms possible down here instead of an elcheapo readily available AK47. As I said and has been said, price means nothing to these people. Price will not stop another such event. When a person is bent on killing lots of people they will Always find a means to the end they desire.

Once again.... an expensive bullet is just hurting the law abiding.

Michael

[bombsquad83]

All these theories and the books that explain what they are are based on a some assumptions. So is mine - namely, people with guns cant over throw a govt with tanks and aircraft..

Here's where you're wrong.  The points that mister and I are making are based on the history of our world.  Facts that are only disputable by saying that what happened before won't happen again this time.  Take some time and look at the failed governments of the past.  Study it.  Heck, you don't even have to go back more than two years!  Look at how the revolutions that occurred recently in Libya and Syria will succeed, when they started out with nothing but an angry populous with guns and the will to fight against a government with tanks and planes.  It might be a trite phrase, but I really believe that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

[The Buddha]

End up dead after a killing spree - hell no, Exhibit A Jared Loughner - Life in prison for killing a bunch of people.
Cost wont matter - are you stupid - OK lets see who can show up with 2g for the 20 bullets ... 2g in cash is a good incentive to stay atleast to get drunk/stoned. The sikh temple shooting guy was a white supremacist. He may have still gone on a killing spree, but think about this ... 99% of people wont ... the colorado shooter wont have, he was shooting into a crowd of random people.

History of the world: As interpreted by someone ? OK you're referring to libya and syria you do know that India kicked the british out and we never had guns ? If there is enough numbers, guns wont matter. If 90% want it, its easy, no one needs to be armed, heck @ 60% no one needs to be armed. @ 60% in US we can easily vote the ones that we want in, its winner take all politics.

Guns will help against the govt in the US if there is more than 50% who're against the govt but less than 60%. Really that's when you want to use them ? So that 60% of people can impose their will on 40% ? Heck I'd say fine that is valid. But you need to recognize that window. Past 60% its vote them out, under 50%, you're not the majority and you dont deserve to be the govt.

All the arab spring countries have had minority govt's in place who are a aristocracy for decades. Its not even close to 60%, its more like 75% get crushed by the 25%. Not applicable to the US.

Supermarket weapons: Really - really, OK please post me a recipie ... and be mindful of the fact that you can kill people in 6" of water if you have their face in it and have your foot on their neck ... I consider myself one damn fine chemist, I came up with the muriatic acid and acetone tricks to treat rust - copying Kreem kit of course, however I was good enough to recognize the chemicals in their bottles and get it cheaper and easier. Post a recipie.

Cloud of fumes: Again a supermarket chemical weapon, or are you referring to an industrial accident like chernobyl ?

Once again, expensive bullets are only for those that cant turn in a core. Keep cores and you're fine for cheap bullets.

The group of people that want to kill a bunch of people and dont care for their own life is a small subset of the population, and to that add in the cost, 2g and up and its a easy 90% reduction. I know one guy that fits the description easy. You see a shootout @ a mexican grocery store/restaurant I'd watch the news closely to see if it is my friend.

Cool.
Buddha.

[Huff1371]

Post a recipe?  Sorry, but with $50 one could kill 50 people with materials readily available. From my EOD experience, its surprising how easy this can be accomplished. And these materials will always be around. Just need someone to really look for it.

[The Buddha]

Post a recipe?  Sorry, but with $50 one could kill 50 people with materials readily available. From my EOD experience, its surprising how easy this can be accomplished. And these materials will always be around. Just need someone to really look for it.

Yes an when that starts to happen when we have choked off the supply of bullets we can worry about that, and seriously I still call bullshit on the chemical bomb from a grocery store ... as long as your recipie doesn't involve "hold vicitim in till she/he stops kicking"
I can send a few 100 people scurrying out into the open air with what I got, and dont think its that easy to do much better.
Cool.
Buddha.

[mister]

Buddha, are you being disagreeable just for the sake of it?

I show you some FACTS that cost meant nothing to such gunmen and you dismiss it.
I show you how gun bans have had the opposite effect and you dismiss it.
I show you how people are acquiring weapons not legally imported into the country and you dismiss it.
I tell you the Aust govt the fuel price increase and you dismiss it - I bloody well live here man and I am telling you, it had Zero effect on Gas usage and has had zero effect since the higher prices have been introduced over 30 years ago. How much longer you want to wait? Even taking one lane of a highway away and making it a 2 or 3 people in car only lane has not encouraged more cars with 2 or 3 people. Turning vehicle lanes into Bus Only lanes has not made people jump on buses. Adding cycling lanes has not increased cycling to work. So how many decades you want these failed things to run before you will accept it?

I am not posting IED recipes or techniques of there use here for all the world to see.

Now, imagine there are no bullets, no guns, no chemicals in supermarkets, nothing like that. And so the next crazy decides.... hop in hummer, mow people down on busy sidewalks etc., and keep doing until stopped by police or something. Will you then suggest to Ban Cars to stop these peeps? Nope, probably "increase the price of gas to $1000 a gallon" hurting the regular folk but just making the crazy come up with a Different way, like hijacking someone's car or stealing a car.

Michael

[Huff1371]

seriously I still call bullshit on the chemical bomb from a grocery store ... as long as your recipie doesn't involve "hold vicitim in till she/he stops kicking"

You must not what to use. Which I do believe is a good thing. While a chemical agent in some sort of dispensing device is just a dumb idea it is not impossible in the least. It is much much much easier to make an explosive device. I have made and used a few explosives whose ingredients are available in most large stores. Before anyone freaks this was done in a Marine Corps training environment. The REF (relative effectivness factor) on the most common was about 0.8 on a scale based on TNT being a 1.0 and C4 being 1.34 .This is relative to weight so one pound of C4 is equal to 1.34 pounds of TNT . This is a strong explosive with a "pushing" force that throws shrapnel around 3000 meters/second. I have yet to see any gun that can fire a single round that speed. Laws outlawing guns, or ammo, or drugs, or anything else will always be broken. The "crazies" that want to kill will still kill. Would it be harder for them if ammo was $200 a bullet? Maybe. Would it stop them at all? VERY doubtful. Would charging that hinder the 99.99999999999999999999% of responible gun owners? Definitely. I realize that most of society has never been through the thousands and thousands of hours of explosives handling or the hundreds of hours of training, but the sad fact is that the information is out there and we can only hope that they only blow themselves to shaZam! trying to manufacture it.

[Roxtar]

Post a recipe?  Sorry, but with $50 one could kill 50 people with materials readily available. From my EOD experience, its surprising how easy this can be accomplished. And these materials will always be around. Just need someone to really look for it.

Yes an when that starts to happen when we have choked off the supply of bullets we can worry about that, and seriously I still call bullshit on the chemical bomb from a grocery store ... as long as your recipie doesn't involve "hold vicitim in till she/he stops kicking"
I can send a few 100 people scurrying out into the open air with what I got, and dont think its that easy to do much better.
Cool.
Buddha.

nitrocellulose.
Nitric acid (you can make yourself)
Sulfuric acid (you can get from auto-zone)
cotton balls (available anywhere)


thermite.
aluminum powder (easy to buy)
iron oxide (easy to make)

countless incendiary devices can be made with over the counter components. (model rocket parts, garage door openers, pressure vessels, electric sprinkler valves, spray nozzles, etc)

really, if you wanted to take out a load of people, guns are the least effective and most expensive method.
for less than $100 worth of stuff from the home improvement store, you could do a lot more damage.

who among us hasn't made a flame thrower out of a lighter, a super soaker, and a half-gallon of kerosene?

[The Buddha]

Buddha, are you being disagreeable just for the sake of it?

I hope I wasn't being disagreeable. I hope I was only disagreeing with the conclusions you have drawn from the facts.
Here is the individual caveats I have for each of these you have mentioned in this post.

Rising gas prices didn't cause a drop in driving. How could people drive less, dont they have to get to work, dont they have to get food, dont they have to do all the same tasks they have assigned to them ? If so how could they stop driving.
BTW India hinges their vehicle descisions on gas mileage, if gas were to go up and stay up so would we. May take 10 years but it will be a permanent ... BTW you do know that in the 60's cars would get you 5-6 mpg and not even bother people. Now we scream bloody murder if we get under 20. Like I said, years, not a few days to make such a huge change.

Raising bullet prices will suck the fun out of it and cut down on bullet purchases though - opposite of driving, it isn't a neccesity. BTW that is called inelastic demand (gas, cigarettes, food etc) vs elastic demand (movie tickets, bullets etc) and not really much to do with anything else.

I however I was only asking for shell casings. Not raising prices at all.

Illegal guns came in, yes and by extension illegal bullets too ? Its gonna have to be a lot of bullets and those take up space and weight. Yes we have a porous border and there is that risk it will happen here. But I would still say most weapons flow into the south from the US, so conceivably it will take a long time to reverse course. Maybe by then we can clamp down on it. Australia may be different from US cos you dont have a border with a country that anyone with a bicycle and a dream can cross and disappear.

Mowing people down in hummers - already happens. I can see that happening in a market like that 95yr old guy did few days ago. Not in a mall or theater. Inherently walls and steps preclude that. Anyway we still have cars, so as a weapon it does exist and we have very little violence related to that.

Guns are second to none in their ability to conceal and for their effectiveness in getting into tight spaces and causing damage. Combine it with the element of surprise and you have unparalleled destructive potential, even if there were armed people in the area, though that can limit the damage, turn a 20 body pile to a 10 body pile.

Huff1371: OK fine 80% of tnt with chemicals from the store. OK I'd say OK. Now here is the question I have. What will happen to the velocity of the shrapnel say 20 ft out. Then further what is the penetration power of the shrapnel compared to a bullet. More over, how hard will that grocery store devise be to setup and detonate. If you have to walk into a crowded area and set up a box and power it up and arm it, and walk away, you see most people will see it and easily walk away or get behind a barrier or call the cops.

And thanks, you decided to use the metric system, I was educated in the metric system and have not given it up yet, to me gravity is still 9.81 m/sec sq.

See this is a good example of using numbers to misinterpret effectiveness - 3000 meters a sec  BTW is that even accurate - sound travels @ 340 m/sec and grenade shrapnel @ around 600-700 m/sec. So your homemade grocery store explosive has shrapnel travelling @ 3000 m/sec ? Faster than a standard issue grenade ? 4-5 times faster ? so why doesn't the govt just use these instead of a grenade ?

OK fine that aside what is the penetration power and the ability to cause damage at 10 ft? how about 20 ft ? 30 ft ? Now remember the detonation force will be a sphere leaving atleast 50% useless cos it goes up, or down into the floor.

Bullets essentially in the hands of a maniac are going to be shot in the body level, held @ waist/chest level and shot level ... none into the air or floor, and they start out at 1500 m/sec, but they have rifling and suffer very little loss in penetration 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 ft or even more.

Heck they can kill people miles away cos they are still going over 500 m/sec.

Hindering 99.99999999999999% - I actually would be very very disappointed if the .00000000001% was left out. It should be hindering 100% of law abiding gun owners. Afterall I am making them pick up their shell casings. However a legit gun owner should do that because it prevents illegal gun owners from getting bullets. You want lawabiding citizens to have access to guns and not criminals, I think its a smart idea to have people bring back the casings. You do a drive by you're not gonna have the time to stop and get your casings. No more driveby's for you. You're sitting @ home, you return their fire - its your house, you can get the casings, so you have bullets and the driveby guys dont.

Cool.
Buddha.

[The Buddha]

nitrocellulose.
Nitric acid (you can make yourself)
Sulfuric acid (you can get from auto-zone)
cotton balls (available anywhere)


thermite.
aluminum powder (easy to buy)
iron oxide (easy to make)

countless incendiary devices can be made with over the counter components. (model rocket parts, garage door openers, pressure vessels, electric sprinkler valves, spray nozzles, etc)

really, if you wanted to take out a load of people, guns are the least effective and most expensive method.
for less than $100 worth of stuff from the home improvement store, you could do a lot more damage.

who among us hasn't made a flame thrower out of a lighter, a super soaker, and a half-gallon of kerosene?

Nitrocellulose - yes OK a component of gun powder, then what would you use to do things - other than make bright sparky fire ? A homemade grenade ? anything else ? remember you need to kill people walking down a street or hanging round @ a mall. You cant say I'll set this huge metal box here light up the fuse and force people to get close to it.

Thermite - Yes I have actually seen this used to weld rail road tracks in India on site. It burns good and hot and leaves a nice flowing steel layer. Grind off the parts on the top and contact faces and you ahve a nicely welded railroad track. So unless you plan on shoving people onto that flame to kill them you're looking at a nice education of field work as a railyard tech.

Incindiary devices - yea cool, I'm sure you can kill quite a few people by lighting up a few matches and shoving it up their nostrils.

And a flame thrower with kerosene and a lighter - like in the first scene of lethal weapon 2 ? Oh yea easy, that wont attract any attention. Matter of fact I went to the store today in that attire. Got some beer, beer I haven't seen in years. Anyway you can hit someone with a flame, they will run away and be burnt but well, horror of horrors, live. Yea 3rd degree burns, but 1 person is all you'd get. BTW even a massive tank and huge 50 ft flames that guy still carried a mac 10 if I recall. get close and he'd shoot you.

I admire y'all for trying to make guns as less lethal than other forms of weapons you can assemble.
But, remember the rules are - you need to be able to get the device you build into a crowded place like a mall, classroom, theater, restaurant etc without alerting people and set it off and kill them. We all know you can kill people with a bucket of water. Can you kill 20-30 free roaming people in 1 location before someone takes you down ? Just like you can with a pair of glocks in your pockets.

Cool.
Buddha.

[yamahonkawazuki]

then theres calcium carbide. a few rocks of that, some water, starts gassing, 1 flame= boom. aka tennisball cannon. no matter what laws are passed anywhere they can NEVER disarm this society

[The Buddha]

then theres calcium carbide. a few rocks of that, some water, starts gassing, 1 flame= boom. aka tennisball cannon. no matter what laws are passed anywhere they can NEVER disarm this society

You will never get that into a crowded space and light it up without people scurrying away. You got nothing without the element of surprise to be honest. I dont care about disarming them, we are taking away the element of surprise. You cant dump 300 bullets into a crowd if you have to spend 3,000,000 to get those 300 bullets. Or the pool will shrink by nearly 500,000%.

Cool.
Buddha.

[Roxtar]

Budda seems to think that people who are bent on a murderous rampage are like him and lack ingenuity.

i mean, what could some fertilizer and diesel fuel POSSIBLY do?

[dam]

And you'd never get anything that big near a crowd light the fuse and walk away, right?

[The Buddha]

Budda seems to think that people who are bent on a murderous rampage are like him and lack ingenuity.

i mean, what could some fertilizer and diesel fuel POSSIBLY do?

OKC right ? well there was no stealth involved in that, and on that scale where they had to buy chemicals and rent trucks and have serious help, all of those have the same potential to happen though after that incident they have clamped down on that type of fertilizer, anyway it is not stealth, and say you see the guys assembling that device, OK you having a gun in that situation aint gonna do much of anything, you would have better luck calling the cops.
Anyway yes it was pretty devastating, however its not as personal as being shot at point blank range by a stranger. That bombing took a lot of work by a lot of people. I know a few people who can repeat any of these recent rampages at the drop of a hat/beer bottle.

Like I said you dont need any planning and you will never get found out ahead of time if you decided to walk into a mall tonight and started shooting.

Cool.
Buddha.

[bombsquad83]

Can we just be done so we don't have to read these ridiculous replies to every single one of our points?

[The Buddha]

Can we just be done so we don't have to read these ridiculous replies to every single one of our points?

Oh yea name calling, the last resort of one whose logic is flawed.

Pics of a homemade fertilizer bomb and its effect ? So what does that do to a discussion about guns ?

Is your point - ban guns and they will do this ? Well yes and even without banning guns they are, it takes a good bit of organisation, $ and luck to pull it off. Guns - anyone with a 3rd grade education and $20 can take out 20-30 people. Walk into a mall, pull em guns out and shoot.

Or,
Is your point, they are doing this and so we need guns for protection ? That dont hold up water either. You see a guy assembling the bomb you're better off calling - ironically the bombsquad. The other "car loaded with explosives driving through a crowd and detonating, I really dont see how having a gun, or not having a gun makes any difference there.

You're trying to throw unrelated sensationalism in place of logic. I do agree there have been some good points, like what do we do about smuggled weapons and ammo etc. But this isn't one of em.

I have a bad net connection, I may not reply for hours, so y'all can breathe easy. It may be a while between posts.
Cool.
Buddha.

[bombsquad83]

I didn't call anyone a name.  I think it's appropriate to call things as they are, and I think it's a bit ridiculous when you try to explain away every well supported point that everyone but you in this thread is making with fake statistics straight out of your brain and through your keyboard.  I'm all for discussion.  I'd like to hear a response that is well researched, and has some historical precedent to back it up.  Until then, it's not worth discussing.

Here's the deal.  You think it's worth the cost of freedom to take away peoples guns to attempt to prevent a few bad actors from killing people, and the rest of us don't.  We can at least agree to disagree.   When there is a riot/revolution/crime wave, you can still come to my house for protection if you want.  That is of course unless the government has already taken my guns.